PoliticsNation, Thursday, May 9th, 2013
Read the transcript from the Thursday show
May 9, 2013
Guests: Zackary Carter; Brian Cummins; Ricky Sanchez; Eugene O`Donnell, Marc Klaas, Rosa Maure Lorre, Keith Boykin
REVEREND AL SHARPTON, MSNBC ANCHOR: Thanks, Chris, and thanks to you
for tuning in.
Tonight`s lead, the mind of a monster. Today, the lone suspect, Ariel
Castro was arraigned in a Cleveland court on charges of kidnapping and
rape. Castro looked down at the ground for the entire proceeding, biting
his collar and signing documents with his handcuffed hands. He did not
speak and he`s being held on $8 million bond.
And we`re learning chilling new details about him. A suicide note
written in 2004 was found inside the house. It contains a confession.
Quote "I am a sexual predator. I need help." He also blames his victims.
Saying quote "they are here against their will because they made a mistake
of getting in a car with a total stranger." And says he was abused by his
parents as a child and was raped by an uncle.
One of the victim`s cousins confirming today to "The New York Times"
that the women were quote "kept in the basement like dogs."
But as this alleged demon held the women captive, he seemingly lived a
normal life to everyone outside the house of horrors. He wrote on
facebook, took walks in the park, barbecued with neighbors, played in local
bands and nobody knew his dark side, not even his brothers who were
released today from custody, not even his own daughter who was best friends
with one of the victims knew -- even she didn`t know her dad`s dark side.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ARLENE CASTRO, DAUGHTER OF ARIEL CASTRO: No, I had no idea. Me and
my father were never really that close. Every time we would talk, it would
just be short conversations and just a hello, how are you doing and let me
know if you need anything and that was it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: In terms of violence in the home, did you
ever witness that?
CASTRO: Oh, no. Never.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SHARPTON: Another amazing day of development.
Joining me is MSNBC`s Craig Melvin, who is outside a Cleveland church
where a prayer service is to be held later tonight.
Craig, an amazing scene playing out today in that courtroom. Is he
CRAIG MELVIN, MSNBC CORRESPONDENT: You know, Rev., that`s a good
question. All indications are at this point, yes. You know, yesterday, we
heard that he waived Miranda and we also heard from a source close to the
investigation that he was answering questions. This morning he did not
have to plead so he did not enter a plea this morning but within 30 days,
when that case goes before the grand jury, we are expecting a plea of some
sort. But, yes, from what we are hearing, yes, he is cooperating to a
You mentioned the $8 million bond, he would have to put up $800,000,
Rev. So no one thinks that`s going to happen. So, he is going to be jail
until the time of his trial, if there is a trial. He was transferred today
from city jail to county jail. And we are also told at one point he was
also in protective custody. He was being kept away from the other inmates.
In terms of what is happening in the neighborhood, you mentioned that
7:00 prayer meeting. It`s also going to be a prayer meeting, but it is
also going to be a community meeting as well where folks who live in this
neighborhood, they are expecting anywhere between 100 or 200 people, folks
who live in this neighborhood can come and they are going to be able to ask
questions and they will be able to voice their concerns, vent frustrations
with elected leaders, law enforcement officials as well. That`s set to
start here at 7:00.
And they are going to be erecting a fence around the Castro home in
the next few days, a 10 to 12-foot fence for a variety of reasons, so they
can open up this street that`s been closed off for a couple of days.
SHARPTON: Now Craig, I understand you have a guest there who are with
you, a man who knows Ariel Castro?
MELVIN: Yes Rev., I want to bring in Ricky Sanchez. Throughout the
course of the day we have been trying to find more out who Ariel Castro
was, this 52-year-old is who is charged with these heinous crimes. And
Ricky Sanchez is just someone who has known him since 1996, right?
RICKY SANCHEZ, NEIGHBOR OF ARIEL CASTRO: Yes.
MELVIN: How did you come to know him?
SANCHEZ: It`s all about music. See, I started playing in 1995 and
there`s a whole bunch of group of musicians here down in Cleveland.
MELVIN: So, you met him in the music scene?
SANCHEZ: I`m a bass player and he`s also a bass player.
MELVIN: You were in the house on Thursday, I understand?
SANCHEZ: This past Thursday, he invited me over to his house, yes.
MELVIN: You walked inside, everything seemed normal?
SANCHEZ: Everything seems like any other house. It was normal.
MELVIN: We have heard about curtains on the windows, we heard about
locks on the doors, how can that seem normal?
SANCHEZ: It was hard for me to -- the guy was a very nice guy and
there was no way for me to have any clue what he was doing. He told me one
day that he was going to take one of the windows on the side and just take
it out and which he did, and he put a panel, like a plywood panel.
MELVIN: Did you ever see any of the women?
SANCHEZ: I never got to see these women, any woman.
MELVIN: Did you see the little girl?
SANCHEZ: I saw the little girl this past Thursday when he invited me
to go. After 45 minutes of me being in that house, she showed up from the
back of the house, which is the -- it was a -- the kitchen. She showed up
to me and he introduced her to me as his granddaughter.
MELVIN: As his granddaughter?
MELVIN: He said, hey, Ricky, this is my granddaughter?
MELVIN: And you thought nothing of it?
SANCHEZ: I had no clue what he was doing.
MELVIN: Ricky, what about reports that there were five locks on the
SANCHEZ: When -- see, when I went to practice with me, you know,
after we finished what we were doing, you know, everything was about music
here. After we finished, I tried to get out of that door and that door has
so many locks that I was so -- I couldn`t even get out. I had to ask him,
would you please help me.
SHARPTON: Craig, did he find it strange to have -- to see all those
locks? And what was the demeanor of the young girl that he thought was the
granddaughter? Did she act afraid, overly shy? Was there anything that
struck him about the behavior of the young girl?
SANCHEZ: Yes, she was very shy. She even was walking -- she was
walking towards the front door and she was like this, kind of like walking
like this, looking towards me. And I wave at her.
MELVIN: Did she seem afraid or --
SANCHEZ: She seem kind of very shy. My kid`s here. You saw my kids
when they got here and say to you with, you know, fear.
MELVIN: Ricky, in the 15 years you knew him, was there anything that
ever seemed remotely strange about him? Did he have a temper? Was he a
drug -- did you ever see him drink excessively?
SANCHEZ: This guy was a very nice guy. The whole entire time. I`ve
been coming to this house since 2001.
SHARPTON: Ricky, did you guys -- you played in a band together. How
often did you all go out on gigs and how late at night were you out that
you saw him out?
MELVIN: When you guys were in the band, when you were out playing
gigs, how often? How often and what was he like when --
SHARPTON: And how late? I`m curious how he kept them captive.
SANCHEZ: Oh, we played until late. We keep playing until about 2:00,
2:30 in the morning.
SHARPTON: And he would be there with you?
SANCHEZ: I never came that late except one time. We came --
SHARPTON: Go ahead.
MELVIN: Rev, feel free to jump in.
SHARPTON: No, I`m trying to find out how often he might have been out
of the house playing gigs and how late he might have been out.
MELVIN: So how late was he usually out?
SANCHEZ: Well, every time we played in a gig, we finished at 2:30 in
MELVIN: And he`d be out until 2:30 in the morning?
SANCHEZ: 2:30 in the morning. That`s kind of late.
MELVIN: What did he tell you about his private life? Did he say he
had a girlfriend?
SANCHEZ: I remember back in 2001 he had girlfriend which we came
here. I had a friend, the four of us came into the living room, and I was
playing the base. I remember back in those days in 2001 and everything
seemed normal. Like everything -- he crank the radio all the way up, music
was always up, playing, practicing, there was no clue. His face, he never
showed that there was something going on.
MELVIN: Did he ever let you go to different parts of the house?
SANCHEZ: I did when about five years ago, he took me on a tour up to
the second level, OK. He took me off to the second level. All I got to
see was his room and a closet, you know, when you look at his house right
there, that window on the left-hand side. There`s two.
SHARPTON: Clint -- let me bring in Clint Van Zandt, former FBI
Clint, what`s your reaction on what you hear about Ricky Sanchez
saying about the suspect?
CLINT VAN ZANDT, FORMER FBI PROFILER: It`s just amazing, Al. It is
just absolutely amazing. What it gives us a picture of is how terrified
and how conditioned these women were that they must have obviously when
your guest was on t first floor and the second floor, the women had to have
been in a basement. We know they never got out of the house. So they had
to have been locked up, chained up, tied up. And this is the type of guy,
Al, who very easily would leave them in the house, circle the house and
come back again to see if they were making noises, to see if they were
trying to escape, to punish them because he would have been conditioning
their behavior to be quiet and not try to get out under any circumstances.
This was the ultimate carrot and the stick and I`m sure this guy used the
stick much more often.
SHARPTON: And he must have been very confident about it. That`s why
I was asking Ricky, did he go on gigs, how late would he stay out? If he`s
going to a gig and playing the bass until 2:30 in the morning, he must have
been confident that he had these young ladies either bound very strongly or
he had them under his spell, or both because clearly he was going out,
doing things that seemed to indicate he wasn`t concerned that they would be
VAN ZANDT: We may well find out, Al, that it was a combination of
confidence, as you suggest, arrogance, and what the realization that this
terrible sociopathic personality had so manipulated, had so traumatized and
so terrorist these women that they gave up all hope of escape, all hope of
doing anything. Realize, all they had to cling to was each other.
VAN ZANDT: And even when this one young woman escaped this week, we
know, Al, that the other two stayed back. They didn`t run. They were
probably so used to being punished and threatened that when they do the
cost benefit analysis, do I try to get away? But if I do, he`s going to
hurt me bad, they made the decision even when the light of day was there,
they chose not to run because they were so conditioned, so traumatized that
they would never get away.
SHARPTON: Now, I want to go back to this suicide note. In the
suicide note that he wrote in 2004, this is Castro, he wrote upon his death
all of his money be provided to each of his victims. What does that tell
you about him, Clint? Why would he have want -- why would he have wanted
to leave his money to his victims? Does that show some kind of guilt, even
though he is obviously a sick person?
VAN ZANDT: Well, I hate this -- I hate to give this guy the benefit
of doubt for anything, Al. I think what it suggests is the
rationalization. Number one, he tells us he was abused as a child. Again,
not my fault. Somebody else.
VAN ZANDT: Number two, he tells us it`s the fault of the women that
they got in his car. It`s their fault. It`s not his. So, it`s all a
rationalization. And, Al, it`s justification in his mind that he`s not
that bad of a guy because, look what I`ve done, I`ve taken care of them.
I`ve celebrated anniversaries with them. I mean, the only thing I`m afraid
of is that this guy is going to come up with some type of defense of
insanity. I don`t think this guy`s insane. I think he, as you
characterized him, is a monster.
SHARPTON: Now, he made cakes and made them celebrate the anniversary
of their abduction. Now, his wife in 2005 saw the restraining order
against him. According to his ex-wife, Castro had allegedly broke her nose
twice, broke her ribs, and caused a blood clot in her brain. Then we, you
know, we played earlier his daughter, Arlene, in the set-up. She was a
close friend of Gina Dejesus, one of the victims. Listen to her emotional
message to Gina this morning.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: What would you like to say to Gina, her
family, and the other women now?
CASTRO: I would like to say that I`m absolutely so, so sorry. I
really want to see you, Gina. And I want you to meet my kids. I`m so
sorry for everything.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SHARPTON: Now, that is the suspect -- this is who I called monster`s
daughter, who was a friend of one of the victims and she`s answering the
question of what she would say to Gina, one of the victims. He actually
abducted and held for a decade one of his daughter`s friends.
VAN ZANDT: Yes. And I think that`s part of the way -- that`s part of
the way, Al, he would have identified. As you and I talked early on in the
case, there would be some type of relationship or at least knowledge
between the kidnapper and the victim and in this case, obviously three
victims. And I think what we are going to find, too, Al, is his ability to
compartmentalize within himself. You know, the Jekyll and the Hyde
personality where the children and the neighbors and friends talk about him
being this wonderful guy, but how could a daughter not know, if it`s true,
that he broke his wife, her mother`s nose two or three times, fractured
ribs, dislocated shoulders. And, Al, we were told that the oldest of the
three victims, the first victim, the 20-year-old, that she was beaten so
badly by him that she had lost the hearing in one ear and lost some of the
use of her face because of how brutal he was. Al, that can be a way to
control the other two victims. You simply say, look how -- look what
happened to this woman. If you don`t do what I tell you to, that`s going
to happen to you, too. What choice would those young women have had?
SHARPTON: I will ask the guests to stand by. Back with more of our
coverage from Cleveland after this.
SHARPTON: More live from Cleveland when we come back.
SHARPTON: Welcome back. Let`s go back to Cleveland where city
councilman Brian Cummins is standing by and here in New York I have with me
Eugene O`Donnell, former NYPD detective and Zackary Carter, former U.S.
attorney for the eastern district of New York.
Thank you all for being here.
Councilman, let me go to you first. What is the mood up in Cleveland?
BRIAN CUMMINS, CITY COUNCILMAN, CLEVELAND: I think fatigue would sum
it up in one word. We`ve been on a roller coaster from over joy that they
were alive to the horror of my God, what would have happened for that
decade plus, to an anger of self-guilt, frankly in terms of why Clinton,
any individuals, police or otherwise could solved this crime earlier. And
really at this point, wanting more information, of course, wanting more
details. But you know, when the details come out, being pretty disgusted
by the horrors. So it`s been a pretty big roller coaster and I think
people are tired.
SHARPTON: You helped organize this community gathering tonight. What
do you hope is accomplished and/or achieved by the gathering tonight?
CUMMINS: You know, Reverend, we have had some experience with some
traumatic events. OF course, nothing that compares to this. But, we know
that if you don`t bring the community together within some reasonable
period of time after something like this explodes on to the scene, we know
that it isn`t healthy for the community in terms of expressing themselves,
in terms of wanting to get questions asked.
You know, the media, there`s press conferences, the media gets asked
questions and the public sits there and watches this unveil and that`s one
of the first things, giving the opportunity to bring things together. We
have inner faith vigil service at the end of the events. We have priests
that are going to help us through this and really somewhat of a briefing.
We don`t expect a lot of new information, but an opportunity for questions
and answers. We are going to talk about the Cleveland courage fund that we
have established for the benefit of the victims. And also talk about
victim services and mental health in services for people in the community.
I was so touched by Ricky`s comments, you know, people like him that
actually knew the abductor must be going through absolutely hell trying to
figure out how they could be associated with someone this evil.
SHARPTON: All right, thank you councilman.
Zachary Carter, let me go to you first. There`s certainly a lot of
finger pointing that will go on as the days go by. Many on the police,
some on neighbors, and I think that clearly, when you start looking into
this, one has to legitimately ask where was the ball dropped?
Now, I`m the one that says the neighbors don`t have the obligation.
The police are to uphold and protect. And there`s been some problems with
this police department. But where do you, as a prosecutor, where do you
begin to see where things could have maybe been avoided here?
ZACKARY CARTER, FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY: Well, based on what`s been
publicly reported, it appears that people are not focusing far enough back
in time. Because this appears to be a case of un-redressed domestic
violence, serious domestic violence. In your earlier segment, you
mentioned that his late wife had suffered two broken noses, broken ribs,
dislocated shoulders, a clot on her brain. There was a filing in the
domestic violence court, a family court in Cleveland and it doesn`t appear
to be any record in there or any serious consequences that visited
themselves upon Ariel Castro as a result of that.
In addition, he had another daughter who is apparently 30 years old,
according to the reporting, who is currently doing 25 years in an Indiana
prison for having attempted to murder her 11-month-old child. And this
documented history of how this sort of abuse gets passed on from generation
to generation. Because can you imagine living in that environment and
developing in a normal way?
SHARPTON: Now, last night, Eugene, on my show, we had a friend of
Castro, a neighbor I should say, friend is probably too strong of a term,
saying he called the police in 2011. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ISRAEL LUGO, NEIGHBOR TO ARIEL CASTRO: Well, she come home from work
and say she saw a girl holding a baby beating on the window asking for help
or something like that. When I came back home, I immediately called the
SHARPTON: So you call the police, the police came, a cruiser
eventually came, they pounded on the door 20 times and then went away?
You`re absolutely positive? Because police say they have no record of
LUGO: Look, I`m absolutely positive.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SHARPTON: Now, of course the Cleveland police deny that. They were
called to the house. Let`s listen to the police chief.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have no record of those calls coming in over
the last ten years.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: You have no record of it. Does that
mean those calls didn`t come or is it possible the calls were made and for
whatever reason they were never recorded?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, we would have a recording of those calls.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SHARPTON: Now, the reason there`s a problem with the confidence in
people in Cleveland, Eugene, is that, this is the same police department
that was known for miss handling a case in Cleveland of a serial killer in
Ohio named Anthony Sowell. He murdered 11 women, September of 2008, women
report being raped and beaten by Sowell, told to come into station. This
is woman now that reported this, detachment from any emotion or come in the
station and report it, not, we`ll come get you.
December 2008, another, a different woman reported attempted rape.
Then, September 2009, Sowell rapes two more women. Then October 29th of
2009, police finally arrive at Sowell`s house with the warrant. If they
did more in 2008, they may have avoided the last two rapes.
So, whether you are throwing blame or not, you can see why there`s a
lot of community concern when the police say, oh, no, nobody told us
anything, when you have glaring cases like this with this department just
two or three years ago.
EUGENE O`DONNELL, FORMER DETECTIVE, NEW YORK POLICE DEPARTMENT: No
question. There are tremendous questions to be asked. Judge Carter
referenced going back on the domestic violence. I was a domestic violence
prosecutor. The top one or two percent of domestic violence, people are
the scariest, people that come in to court and you can`t just let them get
a pass. So, there is prosecutorial issues that have to be looked at.
There is police issues that have to be looked at.
That man seems pretty adamant that the police were summoned. Now, he
might have found them in the street, might not have been a 911 call, but
certainly the police to the extent that they could have gone in there and
prevented this and stopped this earlier, they should have done it.
It is unfortunate reality, sometimes the police departments. They are
so bureaucratize and so in to box checking, the actual quality of the
service that they deliver to people, figuring out what is really going on,
using their soft skills to look around and sweep the area, they don`t do it
as much as they should.
SHARPTON: Now Zach, when you look at the fact -- we know that Amanda
Berry and Gina Dejesus were known in Cleveland. They had roots there. But
Michelle Knight wasn`t. And just (INAUDIBLE) writer this, the fact that
Knight seems to have been quickly dismissed as just another troubled woman
who ran away from home counts as a definite demerit of the Cleveland PD
here. Is that a fair statement, do you think?
CARTER: I don`t know, whether based on what happened with Ms. Knight
that establishes a pattern of being indifferent. Again, I think that the
focus hand been in the wrong place. I think that over the last few years
after these women were abducted, it`s easy to say in hindsight that I saw
this or I saw that. But what was really evident and documented was the
domestic violence which was -- seemed to have been the root of this because
he apparently kept his wife in pretty much the same conditions of captivity
as he kept these girls.
SHARPTON: Your real point is that they should have gone back further
and go to the documents that they had in terms of court proceedings or
CARTER: I think that if we are going to take a lesson of this going
forward, which is the most important thing, you have got to address serious
reports of domestic violence in realtime so that they don`t out of hand.
Because, again, who knows what would have happened if his issues had been
addressed back then. Maybe these kidnappings don`t happen.
SHARPTON: Zackary Carter, Eugene O`Donnell, I`m going to have to
leave it there. Thank you for your time.
Ahead, new details about the horrific ordeal these women face after
their long road to healing. We will talk to a woman who survived her own
abduction when she was just 7-years-old.
Plus, applaud hero, maybe, and a path to redemption? We will tell
you what the ex-wife of Charles Ramsey saying about her husband`s heroic
Stay with us.
SHARPTON: Police have now released a chilling call made just moments
after officers found the three missing women in Cleveland.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DISPATCHER: I have a call taker on the phone with a female who says
her name is Amanda Berry. And she has been kidnapped ten years ago. She`s
at this location now.
OFFICER: Adam 23, you got a bus coming. This might be for real.
There might be others in the house. Adam 23 radio.
DISPATCHER: Go ahead.
OFFICER: We found them. We found them.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SHARPTON: They did found them. And today, we`re learning more about
the bond those women share and their road ahead. That`s next.
SHARPTON: The three young women in Cleveland were reportedly bound
and chained in separate rooms but eventually allowed to live separately on
the second floor. They did interact with each other. And a law
enforcement official says the women, quote, "relied on each other for
survival." Gina DeJesus reportedly showed up a picture drawn by Amanda
Berry`s six-year-old daughter to FBI investigators. Today, Gina`s mother
said, the women didn`t want to be away from one another.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NANCY RUIZ, MOTHER OF GINA DEJESUS: Surprisingly, they are doing
great. All three of them. Because when they did see -- I saw all three of
them together. They didn`t want to get separated at that point yet but
then it`s working out good. They are great. They are fantastic.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SHARPTON: And now they are -- rely on their entire community for the
long road ahead.
Joining me now is Rose Maura Lorre. When she was seven-years-old,
Rose was kidnapped, held captive and sexually assaulted by a stranger for
nine hours, eventually she was able to get back home and she`s writing
about how she survived her ordeal for Salon.com today.
And Marc Klaas who his 12-year-old daughter was kidnapped and killed
almost 20 years ago. He is now an advocate for missing children and
founder of the Klaaskids Foundation. Thanks to both of you for being here
MARC KLAAS, FOUNDER, KLAASKIDS FOUNDATION: Thank you.
ROSE MAURA LORRE, ABDUCTED AS A CHILD: Of course. Thank you.
SHARPTON: Rose, what is it going to take for these women to recover
from what`s happened to them?
LORRE: Time. There`s really no other -- I mean, there are other
things that you can and should do and of course, I`m sure they will. But,
you know, I was kidnapped for a day. That happened 31-years-ago and maybe
in the past few years I`ve gotten to a point where really I don`t think
about it at all. When things like this happen, I do. But I can`t tell you
that it really affects me on a day-to-day basis. But that`s the majority
of my life at this point.
SHARPTON: And you were taken for nine hours and it`s taken you years.
They have been under this control condition and captive for ten years.
LORRE: Right. Right. You know, I certainly can`t speak for them.
I can`t even imagine what that must be like even though I was kidnapped,
you know, just for a day.
LORRE: But time -- time is a great healer, obviously.
SHARPTON: Now, Marc, the women were terrorized by Ariel Castro, today
we`re learning how Michelle Knight was forced to deliver Amanda Berry`s
baby and we`re told Castro forced Knight to deliver the baby in an
inflatable swimming pool and had threatened to kill Knight if the baby did
not survive birth. I mean, this is terrifying. How did they move past
episodes like this, Marc?
KLAAS: Well, you know, Reverend, this guy is one of the worst sadists
I`ve ever heard of. And what these women went through for a decade just
demonstrates the insurmountable power of will. They are going to need to
take advantage of all of the resources that are made available to them. I
would imagine that they will need years of psychological counseling but
only after they find a psychologist or psychiatrist that understands what
they went through and is able to help them through it. And then of course,
they will need some spiritual guidance I would think and certainly the love
of their family and community.
SHARPTON: Now, Rose, Amanda Berry`s grandmother spoke with the
"Today" show this morning about talking to Amanda about this ordeal.
Listen to what she had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MAN: I know you`ve said that you don`t plan on asking
Amanda many of the details of what happened to her. Is that to save Amanda
from having to go through it or in some way to save yourself from having to
FERN GENTRY, GRANDMOTHER OF AMANDA BERRY: Well, I can hear it and if
she needs to talk to me about it, that`s fine. But, no, I`m not going to
bother Amanda until she`s ready. Until Amanda`s ready to talk, I give her
room and space. She`ll know when to do it. She`s a tough girl. She`ll
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SHARPTON: In your opinion, Rose, and certainly no one can speak for
anyone else, but do you think that it`s best that these women talk to their
families about what happened or deal with it in their own way like her
LORRE: I found that talking helps and doesn`t help and not talking
helps and doesn`t help. And for me, it depended on who it was. I actually
was taken to a child psychologist a few months after I was kidnapped and at
that age, I just didn`t like her, I didn`t want to see her again. My
parents didn`t push it. I don`t fault them for that. You know, there were
plenty of times where I talked about it and maybe shouldn`t have.
Where, you know, I kind of became a celebrity in my town for a while
afterwards, all the kids wanted to hear the story. At the time, I was
happy to tell it. Now, do I think that was a good idea psychologically?
Probably not. But, you know, it`s just moving forward. And it`s life.
You make mistakes. I made mistakes about how to handle and process my
kidnapping just as anyone makes mistakes about anything. But you know,
again time, I`m in a much better place now.
SHARPTON: Rose raises an interesting point, Marc, because these young
ladies have gone from captive for a decade to now as they go through this
healing, they are national figures. They are a celebrity. And does that
take away from a lot of the public`s understanding, the sting, the pain,
the trauma that victims go through? Many that don`t even become celebrity?
Are we -- are we in a place where we may miss the point here?
KLAAS: I think that that`s a possibility but, you know, just like
Rose, I have a good friend named Mitzy Sanchez (ph) who was kidnapped and
was able to escape after a couple of days and she was very clear to me that
-- and I didn`t ask about this but she said, you know, the details of what
went on during that time are absolutely nobody`s business but mine and if
I feel like talking to somebody about them at some point, I`ll do that.
Now, Mitzy is somewhat of a celebrity in her community but she`s found
a way to advocate on behalf of other girls that are at risk or in trouble
and I think that that`s gone a long way towards helping her to recover and
now only slowly she`s starting to talk about some of the things that
happened during the time that this character had her.
SHARPTON: Lorre, Rose Lorre, by you writing about it and talking
about it, has that also helped you in your recovering and dealing with it?
Because I was reading, you were saying for a long time even though you`re
the person that victimized, you went to jail, you kept seeing him, did
dealing with this in the way you have helped to get you to a better place?
LORRE: Do you mean from writing about it?
SHARPTON: Yes, from writing about it and by advocating on behalf of
people who have gone through situations like this and like you did.
LORRE: Right. Yes. I mean, well, you know, I guess, it`s kind of
funny. I credit it with why I became a writer by trade in my adult life
because at the age of seven, I had this amazing story that people wanted to
hear. Now, again, was it their business to ask? I mean, these were other
kids coming up to me on the playground saying, I heard you were the girl
that was kidnapped. Tell me about it. At that time, I was happy to
LORRE: But in general, I mean, if you want to say a great thing that
came out of this for me, I found a career that I love, I`m good at, and but
writing in general, definitely, it did help. Yes. This wasn`t the first
time I`ve written about it, it probably won`t be the last but it does help.
SHARPTON: Let me bring back in Clint Van Zandt, a former FBI
profiler, he`s still with us. Clint?
CLINT VAN ZANDT, FORMER FBI PROFILER: Al, you know, I`m sitting here.
I`m listening to Rose and I`m listening to my friend Marc talk. And when I
was seven-years-old, my -- simply down to the street to buy a newspaper for
a nickel. That tells you how long ago it was. And I let a stranger take
me by the hand to show me some newborn puppies and he took me back into a
garage and he closed the door. Al, there were no puppies there.
There was just this terrible man who took off his belt and lunged at
me and when he did, Al, a combination of drunk, dumb, stupid, I don`t know
what it was. But somehow this seven-year-old boy turned sideways, this guy
went past me. Al, I was out the door of that garage. I was on -- back on
the street. You know, we have obsessive/compulsive personalities. I went
bought the newspaper, I went back home, my mother said, why were you
running? And Al, at that moment, I made the classic mistake, that I felt
it was my fault. I felt -- you know, and it was in a way because I went
with a stranger. My parents had told me not to do that.
SHARPTON: So this happened to you, Clint, I mean --
VAN ZANDT: I didn`t tell my parents. Yes. To me. And Al, I didn`t
tell my parents for over 50 years. I told no one.
SHARPTON: For over 50 years, you kept, I mean, and you`ve been in the
FBI, you`ve become a major profiler on television. Fifty years you kept
the fact that at 7-years-old, you yourself were abducted and had to run to
escape? That`s amazing.
VAN ZANDT: I did. I did. I held it and now like Rose, you know,
when I get a chance to share that, we can`t allow ourselves to be
victimized like that. If we`re victimized like Rose, like Marc, like
others, we have to step up and say, I will not be a victim. And Al,
because I didn`t say anything, I allowed that guy to stay out there and I
allowed him, we know that the average predator will offend 50 to 150 times
before he`s arrested. By me not saying anything, I allowed that guy to
stay out there. There are guilt feelings that accompany that, Al.
SHARPTON: On that, let me say to you Rose Maura Lorre and Marc Klaas,
and Clint Van Zandt, thanks for your time tonight. I`m going to leave it
right where it is. And we`ll be right back.
SHARPTON: Next up, the hero of Cleveland. Charles Ramsey and what
some are saying about him. Outrageous. Stay with us.
SHARPTON: The hero of Cleveland, Charles Ramsey, has captivated the
nation. People all across the country are talking about his heroism, some
about his past, and now some are mocking him online.
Joining me now is Keith Boykin, "The New York Times" best-selling
author and BET columnist, his column today is called, "Charles Ramsey and
The Racial Politics of Respectability."
Keith, thanks for coming on the show tonight.
KEITH BOYKIN, BET COLUMNIST: Good to be here.
SHARPTON: Why is Charles Ramsey getting mocked online by some?
BOYKIN: I think this is part of this whole notion that we have
respectability in our community, this notion that we have to present an
image of this positive to other people, mainly to white people, or they
will not think of us acceptably. So, you have these people looking at his
hair, they`re looking at his teeth, they`re looking at his demeanor, he`s
very demonstrative demeanor, and they`re saying, this is not the type of
black person we want to represent us.
We want someone like a Barack Obama or a Will Smith, there are Chris
Paul, well spoken, up standing, educated African-American. And Charles
Ramsey is actually really articulate man. If you listen to his interview,
he`s a very compelling witness of what took place.
SHARPTON: But you know, when I started seeing this early yesterday,
that`s why I brought it up, if it wasn`t brought up publicly, I wouldn`t
have address it. And then I even got a couple of calls in my radio show, I
shouldn`t have brought it up, when it was already public. There`s nothing
to hide it. We should be proud whatever the circumstances. This man did a
heroic act and we`ve got to quite playing with this kind of definition of
BOYKIN: I think you`re right. There are at least four things I think
he did that were very heroic. One is he made that 911 call.
BOYKIN: And he helped get the police to the location. Two, he
actually declined any kind of reward money. People offered him a reward.
BOYKIN: He said, I don`t want a reward. Third, he said, I`m not a
hero. That`s exactly what we expect our heroes to do, not to stand in
the spotlight and demand attention but he says, I`m not a hero. And
fourth, I think this is really most important, actually, he opened up a
conversation, a dialogue about race. He welcomed us to have this
discussion when he said, this little pretty white girl running into a black
man`s arms was the first side in danger. Because in reality, that`s the
truth, that we don`t want to talk about.
SHARPTON: That we don`t want to talk about it. But he`s being
absolutely factual as to how he felt. Let me also burst another bubble
here. There`s been the published reports and online reports about how he
had this background of domestic violence. But his ex-wife, who I give
credit, defended him on her Facebook page today saying, quote, "For the
record, people do change and you shouldn`t hold the past against someone.
The main thing is, Charles Ramsey did a good deed and those girls are safe.
Is that not the most important thing?"
This is his ex-wife. And I give her a lot of credit for standing up
for him since her situation with him has been highlighted all over the
BOYKIN: I do to. And I think, you know, when you`re a hero, you`re
thrust into this situation as an anonymous person. Suddenly, the whole
world knows about your life story, your background. And the reality
Reverend is that we all back stories. We all have things that we`ve done
that we`re not necessarily proud off, we may even be ashamed at.
And what I think is so remarkable with Charles Ramsey is he,
straightforward, he acknowledged that, he went on and said, this arrest
actually made me a better person.
SHARPTON: He said it, yes.
BOYKIN: And I think that`s the statement that --
SHARPTON: I also think that psychologically, he knew whatever was in
his background and he didn`t say, oh, I better not pursue this because
somebody will try and blame me. He went and did what could have caused
him some questions, given how some, some police operate and try to help
these girls. I think he should be given a lot of credit for that.
BOYKIN: I think so, too. You know, it`s easy in a situation like
that, just to ignore this screaming cry for help. And there`s some talk
about Angel Cordero and his role and helping out as well. He said, I don`t
want to dis-acknowledge that.
SHARPTON: Yes. And I acknowledge that as well.
BOYKIN: But I think that regardless of who actually opened the door
or broke down the door, both of these men did something heroic and Charles
Ramsey did something heroic. Because he created this conversation in the
country that we really needed to have.
SHARPTON: And I think that she`ll be given credit and I think that
those that want to hide behind their own classism ought to get over it and
realize that heroes are people that do heroic things. Keith Boykin, thank
you for your time this evening.
BOYKIN: Thank you, Reverend.
SHARPTON: What three young women in Cleveland are teaching the whole
country? That`s, next.
SHARPTON: These are live pictures from the church in Cleveland where
a community meeting and prayer service will start in just a minute.
Tonight, the city of Cleveland impact so much of the country is uniting
behind these three women and the little girl born in captivity. So much
has been taken from them. So much of their young lives, yet now in freedom
they are already starting to give back to the city that lost them.
We learned from them hope. We will, in the coming days or weeks or
months, find out what happened. We will find out about the stifling fear
and what they must have thought or where they might have been conditioned.
But one thing we know is that at some point, they reached out in a dash for
freedom, a dash of hope and thank God there was a Charles Ramsey or
We must all never give up. We must all wait until that moment that
breakthrough comes through. Don`t ever give up and when you do, begin to
feel like you`re giving up, remember Amanda, remember those two others,
remember that young girl. Had they given up, the world would not be saying
tonight, those three girls represent something all of us need to learn.
Thanks for watching. I`m Al Sharpton. "HARDBALL" starts right now.
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