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All In With Chris Hayes, Thursday, November 21

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November 13, 2013
Guest: Dr. Zeke Emanuel, Ezra Klein, Carmen Lima, Jennifer Martinez, Sen.
Richard Blumenthal, Nancy Northup, Erin Carmon


CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST OF "ALL IN": Good evening from New York, I am
Chris Hayes. Over a hundred thousand people have signed up for Obamacare
through state and federal market places so forth. That according to figure
for at least by the Obama administration today.

Those numbers come on amid increasing pressure from republicans who today
once again took to Capitol Hill to break the people working on fixing One thing, though, is clear. Things look quite a bit
different than they did just one short month ago.


republicans who are united and the democrats who are divided. But, this
time democrats are solidly behind President Obama.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER (1): I have never seen the democrats as united
in my life.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER (1): Democrats are united and ready to help in
this shutdown.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER (2): Democrats are united.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER (2): You have to say it by any objective
standpoint, democrats are united.

CHUCK TODD, MSNBC ANCHOR: Democrats are united. There is no democrat that
is ready to break ranks.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER (3): The truth is the democrats are united.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER (4): The democrats in the house are united.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER (3): Again, democrats are united.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER (4): And, democrats right now, politically
have the luxury of both unity and clarity of vision.

HAYES (voice-over): Up until now, congressional democrats have held firm
on Obamacare. For years, they have held together again through Tea Party
backlash through presidential and congressional elections. And,
particularly through the Republican shutdown, the democrats stood united.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: My flock has been lock strong together.

HAYES (voice-over): But, after several weeks of implementation problems,
democrats are starting to go wobbly. And, now some democrats are proposing
so-called fixes to Obamacare that would, in fact, help destroy the program.
Take for example, Senator Joe Manchin.

RACHEL MADDOW, MSNBC ANCHOR: West Virginia Joe Manchin is taking a
stronger approach. He is now backing legislation to delay the laws of
individual mandate for at least a year.

HAYES (voice-over): Yes, the senator from West Virginia wants to delay
enforcement of the individual mandate.

SEN. JOE MANCHIN, (D) WEST VIRGINIA: There should be a transition year for
a year. There should be no fines.

HAYES (voice-over): That sounds fine on paper, but it would break the
exchanges, which need to enroll young healthy people to balance risk with
older sicker people. The mandate exists to prod those young healthy people
into the market. If they do not enter the market for a year, those markets
will not work.

MANCHIN: If you got a lot of problems that have been identified and I
think everybody recognize them. Let`s fix it.

HAYES (voice-over): Senator Joe Manchin, you are not helping. Then there
is Senator Jeanne Shaheen from New Hampshire.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Senator Jeanne Shaheen and nine other
democrats, seven of whom are facing tough reelections, want to extend the
deadline for enrollment.

HAYES (voice-over): Shaheen wrote a letter with those democrats signing
on, urging the administration to extend the open enrolment period.

disaster. And, so what I am proposing is that we extend the period in
which people can enroll.

HAYES (voice-over): Again, that sounds sensible. But it ignores that
deadlines force people to act. Just look at Romney care in Massachusetts.
During the first month of the one year open enrollment, almost no one
signed up. After two months, a couple of thousand people have signed up.
In the one month before the deadline, over 36,000 people signed up. People
do not sign up for health insurance until they have to.

SHAHEEN: My goal is to fix the affordable care act to make sure people
get that access to health care.

HAYES (voice-over): Jean Shaheen, you are not helping. And, finally, the
latest democratic senate bill comes from Louisiana`s Mary Landrieu.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Now, she says she is introducing a bill to
help people. Keep the plans they had like.

HAYES (voice-over): Five senate democrats are now co-sponsoring the bill.

SEN. MARY LANDRIEU, (D) LOUISIANA: It will clearly say, if you had an
insurance plan that you liked, that you could afford, that you felt like
you -- you felt like that is what you wanted and you could afford, you can
keep it.

HAYES (voice-over): Landrieu`s plan would, not to put to fine a point on
it, destroy the affordable care act. It would rip to shred the risks. It
would raise premiums. It would allow people to continue buying the same
plans that have bankrupted people for years.

LANDRIEU: This is not to undermine the affordable care act, it is to
strengthen it.

HAYES (voice-over): Mary Landrieu, you are not helping. We understand
that the Obamacare care roll out is keeping democratic lawmakers people up
at night right now, but the political problem of Obamacare cannot be fixed
by making the policy worse.


HAYES: Joining me now is Dr. Zeke Emanuel, MSNBC Contributor and Chair of
the Department of Medical Ethics and Health Policy at the University of
Pennsylvania. He was special adviser for health policy to the Obama White
House. And Zeke, what is your take on the fixes now being offered by
democratic senators.

DR. ZEKE EMANUEL, MSNBC CONTRIBUTOR: Well, I certainly do not like the
idea of not having the individual mandate going into place. I do not think
that is right. I think Senator Manchin`s suggestion is wrong. I do think
if we can get the website up and running reasonably well by the end of the
month, things would go well.

Remember, the open enrollment period goes until March 31, 2014. That would
give people about four months to enroll. And, as you point out, people --
especially young healthy people do have this tendency to wait to the pretty
close to the last minute before they are going to sign up.

HAYES: Yes. You know, this is not buying your -- you know, something you
are really excited about buying, right? This is a chore for most folks. I
was actually talking to someone who works in the insurance industry and
said, I bet if you took just your employer`s data and you look at open
enrollment period, when do people sign up? And, the chart is just going to
go like this. It spikes the day before. I know myself that is true. So,
pushing things back is only going to make it more difficult to get people
into the pool, which is precisely the project that everyone needs to be
engaged in right now.

EMANUEL: Well, I agree with you. And, you know, we all wish that the
website was working well. And, I do think it is very important to get it
up and working reasonably well and to work very vigorously. I have to say
I am a little baffled by some of the problems that they are having.

For example, the shop and compare aspect, being able to sort of window
shop, look at your options; get a firm number on your subsidy for your
particular age and your particular income. The fact that they cannot get
that rolling is a little puzzling, because something called value penguin,
and Steve Morris, an individual computer electrical engineer out in
California have been able to make websites that work on that and actually
give you the information.

HAYES: Right.

EMANUEL: And, you would think that it should be relatively easy for the
government to do that. So, we got to get those aspects up and running and
make them very easy plus the easy plus the actual sign-up. And, once that
is happening, I think most of the other chatter we are hearing about the
cancellations and all the other stuff would go away.

HAYES: I want to bring in Ezra Klein, MSNBC Policy Analyst, Editor of the
Washington Post`s Wonkblog. Ezra, what is your take on these -- on the
proposals that we have seen from democratic senators particularly the
Landrieu one, which has gotten a little bit of traction, you have the very
progressive senator, Jeff Merkely, from Oregon who has co-sponsored it. Am
I wrong in saying that on policy ground, it is not a very good idea?

EZRA KLEIN, MSNBC POLICY ANALYST: No, it is not a very good idea at all.
Now, it is an idea, I think that -- it is only a good idea if they can
never get the website working, right? So, what I think you are really
seeing here is not just a set of policy proposals but an increasing
suspicion among democratic senators. There really is no time line here.

HAYES: Right.

KLEIN: It is not going to be by the end of the month. There is not going
to be anytime soon. What her proposal would do, and as you say, it has
Jeff Merkeley on it. It got Dianne Feinstein on it. What her proposal
would do is to accelerate a problem, a real policy problem that his law
actually has, which is -- because website is not working, because it is so
difficult to sign up, you have older sicker people who are persisting and
determined to make it to the end. Younger healthier people are not.

So, that is creating the specter of a risk problem, which would increase
premiums for 2015. If you add her proposal in, so you don`t have all these
younger healthier, which people coming from the current individual market.
You have made the core problem, the law is facing it worse. And, one thing
that I think is somewhat fascinating about the proposal is it -- she would
solve a short-term political problem by creating a much longer term policy
and political problems for democrats, which is when she would actually be
running for re-election and Merkley would actually be running for re-
election in 2014. Premiums will be going up, and there would be more of a
sense of failure.

HAYES: You made this point on Wonkblog. And, I agree entirely you cannot
solve political problems with short-term political fixes that will make
things work subsequently. And, what I think is happening here, I saw
gravity in the movie theaters a few weeks ago and you know what? --

KLEIN: This is not going to be a good comparison.

HAYES: No -- No. Not to spoil things, but at one, you know? One of the
astronauts -- I will not say who, is returning to earth and in this little
shell of a thing that is getting very, very hot, because as it streams
towards earth, it is hitting the atmosphere and getting hot.

And, what this looks like to me as an observer is democratic senators up
for re-election in 2014 are in the little pot and it is heating up. And,
they are like, "You know, let`s go ahead and try opening that window. Get
some air in here. It is getting hot in here."

KLEIN: No. Do not open the window.

EMANUEL: In fairness --


HAYES: Go for it Zeke.

EMANUEL: In fairness, Chris, they feel like they are out of control. They
do not actually control repair of the website.

HAYES: Right.

EMANUEL: The president and the White House said everything was under
control to them. And, you can understand their frustration here. And,
even now, I think they are having a sense that, are they telling us the
truth? Can we really trust that it will be up? And, I think if they had
great confidence that by December 1st, November 30th, it would be working
well --

HAYES: Right.

Dr. EMANUEL: -- Again, I think you would have a lot more calmness here.
And, I think if we had these briefings that actually gave us a real
concrete sense of what was happening and the president announced, you
know, when John leaves at the end of the year, here is the CEO who is going
to step in and run it until the end of the administration. I think people
would calm down. But, in the absence of those kind of decisions and
actions, I think this anxiety is very human.

HAYES: Right.

EMANUEL: It does not make it right from a policy standpoint --

HAYES: No. I understand --

EMNUEL: -- But, psychologically, it is understandable.

HAYES: It is very understandable. And, Ezra, it actually reminds me -- I
remember you and I having conversation -- had a conversation about this at
this point, which was after the Scott Brown victory, which was probably the
moment of maximal peril for the affordable care act, where it really did

I mean I read obituaries for the affordable care act, the day after Scott
Brown`s elected. It was like, "Well that is it." I run into a democratic
member of the house on the street on the Capitol, who is like, "Well, that
is it. It is done." And, what democrats figured out at that moment was,
you have associated yourself with this thing.

You have paid for the meal, so you might as well eat it. This -- you are
connected to this thing. You cannot separate yourself from this thing.
You might as well get the thing passed. And, I think there is a kind of
similar political logic at play here if vulnerable senators can be brought
to see it.

KLEIN: I think that is right. I mean and you remember Scott Brown, I
would say this is actually not going to be the biggest problem in the
world, and it was not. So, I do think that there -- as you say that is an
important political logic that democrats in another point embraced.

What you are seeing here though, which I think is more dangerous for the
law, is small efforts to re-open it, in ways it seem to sound good, seem to
look like they are fixing it. And, something to Zeke`s point, because I
think these is really underappreciated dynamic. These congressional
democrats feel betrayed.

When we talk about the president making the promise if you like your
insurance you can keep it. We think about him making it to the people.
But, he also made it to those democrats, and they went out in their
elections and to their constituents, and they said it too. And, when
senator Landrieu goes out in the floor to argue for her bill, she says, you
know, "We are bringing the law back into the intent of the authors" --

HAYES: Right.

KLEIN: -- which is the books, and the senate and the house. So, one of
the things happening here is not -- which I think is different than Scott
Brown is that they really feel like they are going back to keeping faith to
what they are intending to do, as opposed to breaking it. And, the problem
there, the fundamental problem with the administration, which they need to
figure out how to do.

And, tomorrow, there is going to be -- I believe an all caucus meeting with
Reid in the White House about Obamacare is they need to quickly re-gain
credibility with the democrats about Obamacare --

HAYES: Right.

KLEIN: -- because if they can get that back, they can hold the line. But,
if they cannot, the congressional democrats feel betrayed by them or do not
feel they cannot trust the time line the White House is laying out. That
is when you see real defections and defections by people who think that
they are actually now acting in service of the law in what they promised
their constituent as opposed to simply running for political purpose --

HAYES: One of the most dramatic parts of all of this and something that I
look forward to reading the history of 20 years from now when we can get
the inside account, the thought of some of the most powerful people in the
world, indeed, arguably the most powerful person of the world, the
president of the United States.

And, senators sitting around, and there is this black box, which a piece of
software that is going to work, and there is some group of technocrats who
are trying to make it work and everyone else is just impudent, panicking,
lying around just like, "Please, please make it work. It is an amazing
sort of statement about where we are, Dr. Zeke Emanuel from the University
of Pennsylvania, Ezra Klein from the Washington Post, thank you, gentlemen,

EMANUEL: Thank you.

HAYES: Coming up.


CARMEN LIMA: OK. Do you think we can like talk while you are waiting for
your food?


HAYES: If you think that the encounter between House Speaker John Boehner
and those two activists in the Washington, D.C. Diner this morning was
awkward. Wait until you see the rest of the tape. We will play it for
you. And, these two young women will be here and tell me why they did it.


HAYES: This is John Boehner eating breakfast at the Diner this morning.
Check out how excited he is to hear from the two young women urging him to
make immigration reform a priority.

understand. I understand.

JENNIFER MARTINEZ: Really, really appreciate it if you did whatever was in
your power to move this bill forward.

BOEHNER: All right. I agree with you. Thank you.


HAYES: More on that incredible video coming next. But, let me ask you
something, does John Boehner strike you as a guy who likes to engage with
his community? So, then how is it that he has almost 400,000 friends on
Facebook. Look, I am not saying, I am jealous or anything.

But, you know, I had that many friends, I would be nice to each and every
one of you, who approach me in correctness.,
go like us today and have a muffin. We will be right back.



NORMAN J. ORNSTEIN, POLITICAL SCIENTIST: The fact that the house has
scheduled 13 more days and not full days for the rest of the year and has
basically thrown it in, we are going to do nothing else except find a way
to keep the government operating. That tells you, as well, that we have a
great difference here.

HAYES: Wait a second. The house is scheduled 13 days?

ORNSTEIN: Yes. You know, the rest of the year is pretty much said, "We
are done."


HAYES: That was our guest Norman Ornstein last night pointing out the
fact, the House of Representatives is hardly burning the midnight oil as
they approach the end of the year. And, there is a good reason for that.
House Speaker John Boehner wants to run out the clock on the house
calendar, so he does not have to do anything on something like say,
comprehensive immigration reform, which of course passed the senate this
summer with broad bipartisan support and they are sitting there with -- it
looks like enough votes in the house to actually pass and become a law.

If only John Boehner brings it to the floor for a vote. The ease with
which this could be done was highlighted today by democratic leader Nancy
Pelosi, with 119 co-sponsors on the HR15 and 20 republicans vow and
support. She tweeted, "We have the vote to pass immigration reform."

Still, Boehner seems to be saying, "Look we just do not have the time to
take up a complex issue like immigration reform." It is a strategy he
hopes will convince lawmakers to just ignore the issue altogether.

But, the strategy of those people whose lives are on the line, and there
are millions of them, is to make it so that John Boehner and the rest of
the Republican Party cannot ignore it. So, this morning, while eating
breakfast, Boehner was approached by two teenagers who asked if they could
share with him their stories on immigration.


JENNIFER MARTINEZ, POLITICAL ACTIVIST: Would you join us for breakfast?

BOEHNER: I am just trying to eat breakfast.

CARMEN LIMA, POLITICAL ACTIVIST: OK. Do you think we can like talk while
you are waiting for your food?

BOEHNER: Yes. Sure.

LIMA: Yes. I am Carmen Lima.

BOEHNER: Hi, Carmen.

LIMA: I am 13. And -- you are a father, right?


LIMA: So, how would feel if you had to tell your kids, at the age of ten
that you were never coming home?

BOEHNER: That would not be good.

LIMA: Huh?

BOEHNER: That would not be good.

LIMA: I know, so that is what is happening -- that is what happened to me.


HAYES: And, Boehner gave them a line that gives everybody, which is of
course, some version of, "I have been committed to this ever since the
president got reelected."


BOEHNER: Well, I am trying to find some way to get this thing done. It`s
well, as you know, not easy. It is not going to be an easy path forward,
but I have made it clear since the day after the election that it is time
to get this done.

LIMA: So, we can count on your vote for immigration reform?

BOEHNER: I am trying to find a way to move it -- go forward. Thanks.


HAYES: Thanks. But, Check this out, John Boehner had the gall to tell
these girls to their faces that he is quote, "Trying to find some way to
get this thing done." A few hours before he went out and told reporters he
has no intention whatsoever of moving forward on immigration reform.


BOEHNER: The idea that we are going to take up a 1,300 page bill that no
one had ever read, which is what the senate did is not going to happen.
And, frankly I will make clear we have no intention of ever going to
conference on this senate bill.


HAYES: Joining me now are those two young women who confronted House
Speaker John Boehner on tape. Carmen Lima, undocumented 13-year-old
student whose father faces possible deportation. Her family is active in
the collision in the humane immigrant rights of Los Angeles, and Jennifer
Martinez, a 16-year-old student whose parents are undocumented. She is an
activist for "One America."

Carmen, I wanted to ask you what your response was or reaction to seeing
John Boehner say to you he is trying to get it done. And, then a few hours
later go tell the press, absolutely no way, basically over my dead body.

LIMA: Well, here is the thing. I told Boehner my story hoping that maybe
it would touch him. Maybe he would like change his mind a little, maybe
not like completely -- like drop to his knees and say, "Yes. I am going to
go do it right now." But, I hoped he would have like -- he would be honest
with me. And, now I feel betrayed. I feel like he lied to me. I felt
like my story meant nothing to him, which is terrible.

HAYES: Jennifer, you tried -- you and Carmen were sort of trying to kind
of cross this empathetic gap, right? I mean trying to let John Boehner
know what it is like to live in the uncertainty that so many millions of
our fellow Americans really live in. Do you think that there is any way of
getting that though to politicians?

MARTINEZ: I think it is possible. At the end of the day they are humans
to some extent. So, I mean, that is the whole point of this telling our
stories, being persistent. I mean we are not letting up. At, some point
we are going to tear down those walls that they have built around
themselves. And, sooner or later they are going to have to listen whether
they want to or not. It is just a matter of time.

HAYES: What has it meant for you, Jenny, to live with the specter of
deportation of your family being separated? Have you seen that up-close up
and personal?

MARTINEZ: My parents -- I am lucky enough that my parents have never been
deported. I have never had my family separated in the sense that ice came
to my house and took my mom and dad from me. But, as far as up-close and
personal, I have grown up with friends who are undocumented whose parents
have been deported, and then they are left to, you know, make ends meet for
themselves, because this is their home.

Where else are they going to go? You know, this is -- as I said, this is
their home. So, as far as me seeing it personally, I have seen it through
friends. The lives of friends, through the lives of my contemporaries at
school. And, I mean, back in 2009 when my family went back to Mexico, I
had to leave my dad back in Mexico in an airport and go home as if
everything was okay. When in reality I did not know when I would see my
dad again.

HAYES: Carmen, I have been a reporter for a number of years. And, when I
first started being a reporter it was really hard for me to just go up to
people at events or anything and just kind of break in and interrupt them
and start asking them questions. I had to like sit there and psych myself
up. How did you prepare yourself to do this?

LIMA: Ever since I heard we were speaking to Boehner, I knew this was a
huge thing like he was a huge thing. He was a guy we had to convince so
that the immigration reform passed. So, ever since my dad was almost
deported, I knew that the one thing you could not do is be afraid.

And, that is what my mom taught me. It was all my sisters taught me. So,
when I heard you are going to speak to Boehner. I was not scared. I was
more hopeful that he was going to listen to. He is going to understand.
What I was scared of was he has like six body guards. That was scary.


HAYES: I think they treated you with due grace and deference. Do you
think there is any way -- I mean what is the next step now? I mean John
Boehner, basically, we know that the fate of this really rests in his hands
and his hands alone. And, he is the speaker of the house. If he brings it
up to a vote, it will almost certainly pass. What is the next step? Are
you guys going to say, "Well, we tried." Or is there going to be more
pressure brought to bear on him?

MARTINEZ: Well, this movement is made up of people who are so resilient.
It is not going to stop now. This movement -- it is not something that is
political. It is something that is dealing with human lives. You really
think that people who only want to better their lives, who only want to
give their children a chance, who only want a chance at education, you
think they are only going to stop anytime soon just because one man says,
"Oh, no way are we going to do this, this year." No. We are going to be
persistent. We have been persistent for the past years and it is going to

LIMA: It has been since decades.

MARTINEZ: This is just an extension of the civil rights movement. It has
never ended. It is going to continue until we get what we want, which is
comprehensive immigration reform.

LIMA: They passed the torch down to us and now we are going to carry until
Boehner says yes, because we know that Boehner is going to have give in,
because politicians once they see interests and once they see people
rallying and people getting together and united that is when politicians
have to say, "Oh, well, we give up. It is the people. Not us."

HAYES: Carmen Lima and Jennifer Martinez, thank you very much.


DAVID SHINER, TORONTO CITY COUNCILOR: Now, the other thing that people
have asked is will you get help?

ROB FORD, TORONTO MAYOR: I am not an addict of any sort. So, I am not
quite sure why you are saying I need help.


HAYES: There is news and reports tonight on our old friend, Rob Ford, the
embattled admitted crack-smoking mayor of Toronto. Today, he appeared
before the Toronto City Council, and something happened I have never seen
before at a city council meeting, an intervention. We will play you more
of that tape, next.


HAYES: We have been following the saga of the embattled self-admitted
crack-smoking mayor of Toronto, Rob Ford. And, today, the latest chapter
played out live on television set across North America.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: There is breaking news regarding Toronto`s
embattles mayor, Rob Ford. Hey, watch out for that camera.


HAYES: Mayor Ford made his first appearance before the Toronto City
Council since confessing he had in fact, smoked crack in one of his drunken
stupors. The council expressed genuine mounting concern about whether the
mayor is in the grips of going substance abuse problem. What played out is
something is something I have never quite seen before the entire
legislative body attempting to stage intervention with the member of the


MIKE DEL GRANDE, TORONTO CITY COUNCILOR: Every episode that has occurred
that has cost emotion in the city has been because you have indicated that
you have inebriated. And, yet you have failed to appreciate that perhaps
there was a problem there.

FORD: Councilor, I admitted to my mistakes and I said it would never
happen again and it has never happened again at the Air Canada Centre.

zero tolerance for drugs, guns and gangs?

FORD: Absolutely.

MINNAN-WONG: Have you purchased illegal drugs in the last two years?

FORD: Yes. I have.

have an addiction problem with alcohol?

FORD: Absolutely not.

MAMMOLITTI: Mr. Mayor, do you think you have an addiction problem with
substance abuse and illicit drugs?

FORD: Absolutely not.

MAMMOLITTI: Mr. Mayor, you recognize that some of your behavior points to

FORD: Depends how you interpret my behavior. A few isolated incidents.

MAMMOLITTI: This is not funny, folks.

FORD: I can assure you I am not an alcoholic. I am not a drug addict.

DAVID SHINER, TORONTO CITY COUNCILOR: Have you admitted all of your

FORD: I do not know what else -- I do not know. There might be like a
coat hanger left in my closet. I do not know.

SHINER: Now, the other thing that people have asked is will you get help?

FORD: I am not an addict of any sort. So, I am not quite sure why you are
saying I need help. I might go to Florida over the Christmas holidays with
my family for maybe six days like I did last year. But, I am not missing a
day of work. I never have. I never will.

have you ever assaulted any of your staff?

FORD: Assaulted any of my staff? No, I do not. Assaulted, no, I do not
assault any -- I was here 13 years. I never assaulted any of my staff.

BAEREMAIKER: There was a report in the newspaper that on St. Patrick`s Day
while in this building, you actually shoved one of your own staff to the
ground and your other staff had to intervene and hold you back.

FORD: I think you are referring to the St. Patrick`s Day Party I had in my
office. That was very -- A lot of the stuff in there, the media was
completely wrong. Some of it was true, and some of it was false.


HAYES: Mayor Ford then have attempted to turn the tables, proposing
emotion for all city council members to submit to drug and alcohol testing,
which the mayor said, he would pay for himself. The speaker ruled the
motion out of order. What did pass by an overwhelming 37 vote was a
request that Mr. Ford step down as mayor to deal with his personal

Though, there is no binding effect on Mayor Ford, in a further insult to
the mayor, the organizers of the Santa Claus parade formerly asked him not
to participate this year. In the tragic comedic tale of this mayor being
corned off from Santa Claus will increasingly be the least of his problems.


HAYES: You might not remember when Bob McDonnell was a rising republican
star, the subject of vice presidential buzz at every turn. But, it is
worth remembering what killed all that hopeful buzz.


MADDOW: Bob McDonnell`s whole career has been as a hard right, social
conservative, punish them, forced ultrasound kind of guy. He still is, and
he may not want to be thought of that way anymore, who would? But actions
speak louder than words, governor probe.


HAYES: Bob McDonnell`s political shine start to wear off right around the
time his name became synonymous with force vaginal probing. But,
democratic Senator Richard Blumenthal is here to help republicans like Bob
McDonnell. Coming up, how Washington, D.C. democrats plan to prevent the
next governor ultrasound from mandating probes and shutting down abortion



BARBARA MIKULSKI, (D) MARYLAND SENATOR: The republicans continue to want
to push a radical agenda against women.

BARBARA BOXER, (D) CALIFORNIA SENATOR: Women of America and the men who
care about you, get ready, because there is an assault on women and stand
with us.

TOM HARKIN, (D) IOWA SENATOR: Women are not going to be dragged backward
to the days when they were denied access to contraception, pre-natal
screenings and other essential services.

often should not come from government, but then have government want to be
in my bedroom and in my uterus. It is a big deal. Government need to stay
out of my uterus.


HAYES: This has become the democratic line of attack against the brand of
extremism on women`s right, the modern Republican Party is pushing. There
has been incredibly productive from a political perspective. I mean just
last week, democrat Terry McAuliffe, who really should have been a
terrible candidate managed to win the governor`s race in Virginia, thanks
in large part to the radical antiabortion politics of his opponent,
republican Ken Cuccinelli.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE SPEAKER: Cuccinelli wants to makes all abortion
illegal even in cases of rape and incest, even to protect the women`s
health. Who is Ken Cuccinelli to interfere in the lives of women across


HAYES: But, while spotlighting the GOP war on women has hurt the
republican brand, definitely, it has not slowed the onslaught of
antiabortion measures coming from republicans at every level of government.
Most particularly, at the state level.

In fact, the opposite has happened. There were more abortion restrictions
inactive by the states in 2011 and again in 2012, more than any previous
year on record, with the combined 145 restrictions put in place over those
last two years.

In the first six months of this year, another 43 abortion restrictions were
put in place around the country. While democrats have attacked Republicans
retorically on this issue, they have not for the most part tried to pick
policy fights. They have not really been trying to pass laws that would
answer the GOP`s legislated crusade against abortion rights that is until


SEN. RICHARD BLUMENTHAL, (D) CONNECTICUT: This measure is firmly rooted in
the United States Supreme Court`s decision that protect a woman`s right to
choose. It very simply enables access to health care that is vitally
important to women to make real the rights they have under the


HAYES: That was democrat Senator Richard Blumenthal, Connecticut, the lead
sponsor of the women`s health protection act 2013. A bill designed to stop
states from blocking access to abortion. It comes at a crucial time,
despite the best efforts of Wendy Davis and her allies in Texas. Abortion
restrictions in active this year have forced roughly a clinic in the state
of Texas to stop performing abortion. And, joining me, now is Senator
Richard Blumenthal, democrat from Connecticut. Senator, what was the promt
for this piece of legislation.

BLUMENTHAL: The process was very simply that we rallied, as many senators
could, we have more than 30 right now. A very exciting moment because it
is a response to this cascading onslaught of measures that have a false
pretext. They have the guise of protecting women`s health care, when in
fact they deny essential rights that women are guaranteed under the

And, there is a very real practical effect. They really deter and
discourage women from seeking reproductive health care, including abortion.
And, they have a tremendous chilling effect on rights that women are really
guaranteed under the constitution.

HAYES: You are a senator in a fairly blue state, but someone is going to
run statewide and you are not in some Gerrymander district where you can
just safely vote anyway you want. And, this is a topic that I feel that
democrats have talked about a lot retorically, but have not seen to want to
push on legislatively. How do you understand the politics of this when you
are talking to your voters in Connecticut? What are you telling them about

BLUMENTHAL: Well, first of all, Chris, I have been fighting this battle
for about 3 decades, beginning in the state legislature, when I sought to
codify Roe V. Wade, so we wouldn`t be at the mercy of the Supreme Court,
which is unpredictable on this issue.

Then as attorney general for 20 years, when I enforced the face act, which
protects against physical interference. And, the way I talk about it to my
constituent is, that we are in effect trying to do the same against the
legal barriers as we did against the physical barriers under the face act.
And, women should be free to make these decisions.

They are to be made between themselves and their physicians without the
protectoral and false premise that some of the state legislatures provides
such as requiring outmoded medical regimens, prescribing the hallways and
the clinics, requiring visiting privileges on the part of the doctors, who
perform these measures.

Really, these kind of false pretext for health care are a means of blocking
access. So, I talk about it as a choice women should make without this
kind of obstruction from the state. Politicians have no business
interfering in these decisions and people should be free to make them on
their own.

HAYES: Just so that folks know, there are nine states that have been
enacted these kinds of laws. It is commonly referred to as trap laws.
They are currently in effect in Kansas, Tennessee, Utah, and Texas. They
are being blocked by courts in Mississippi, Alabama, North Dakota and

And, there are some that are being considered in Arizona. There has been a
really intense judicial battle over whether these are even constitutional.
And, I think it emphasizes just how important the federal courts are at
this moment, because these challenges are now working their way through the
federal courts and appear poised at some point to make their way to the
Supreme Court.

BLUMENTHAL: And, they may well make their way to the Supreme Court. But,
we are saying the state legislature is here. Whatever, the Supreme Court
decides there will be a federal law that bars these very, very false and
unfortunate inference with women`s rights with the pretext of protecting
them and instead interfering with these rights.

And, the federal law is important because it sends a message to the state
legislators, why incur the cost of litigating? Why not just follow the
constitutional law and the conscience of the nation?

HAYES: Is there any way to get 60 votes for a piece of legislation like
this, given how unified, particularly the Republican Party seems in their
opposition to abortion and their opposition to choice. Is this the kind of
thing that there is ever any hope of peeling any republicans off of?

BLUMENTHAL: I think there really is, Chris. At the end of the day,
legislators who say they are pro choice will have to answer in this next
election if not before whether they support the women`s health care
protection act. And, this is a mainstream measure. It has the support of
planned parenthood. The ACLU, the center for reproductive rights, who all
have been involved in helping to draft it, very, very importantly.

And, it also recognizes the enormous courage of those health care
providers. They are really in some ways the heroes of this story. The
folks out there who are risking not only vilification but real physical

HAYES: Senator Richard Blumenthal of Connecticut, thank you so much.

BLUMENTHAL: Thank you.

HAYES: We will be right back.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: On the eve of the 40th anniversary of Roe V.
Wade, Mississippi`s only abortion clinic is fighting a state law that could
force it to shut down.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: My goal is to force it to shut down.


HAYES: So, the only remaining Mississippi clinic is still fighting in
court to be allowed to stay open. It is fighting a law that as you just
heard the state`s governor say was designed to close its doors. It is that
-- that kind of state law that democrats in congress would ban under the
aggressive new prochoice bill that was infused today.

Joining me now, Nancy Northup, President and CEO of Center For Reproductive
Rights and Erin Carmon a natural reporter for our own She has
been covering the story. Erin, your piece today reminded me of a piece of
legislation democrats have proposed back in 2007 that I completely have
forgotten about. This is the first time you have seen it national
democrats --

ERIN CARMON, MSNBC.COM REPORTER: Many people forgot about it.

HAYES: -- yes, exactly. This is the first time you are seeing national
democrats on Capitol Hill really step out and push this.

CARMON: Well, I think they did push the freedom of choice act a couple of
years ago, but there clearly was not enough political will because it never
went anywhere, even when democrats controlled both chambers. I mean, I do
understand why this has not been a fight they want to pick. They are
traumatized by the, quote, unquote, "partial birth abortion ban" struggle
that started in the late `90s and carried all the ways through the 2000.

They are afraid of this fight. But, I think what you are seeing is that
because of the tremendous overreach that has happened in state
legislatures, because of the comments that had been made in the process of
passing those laws, pro choice voters who have been somewhat, you know,
back seat are now galvanized and that is giving democratic politicians some
energy and seeing the political advantage in reaffirming women`s
reproductive rights.

HAYES: So, there is a two prong strategy to get rid of abortion and
outlawed and essentially Roe in this country. One is a legal strategy and
that has to do with passing pieces of legislation in the states that ban
abortion after six weeks or 12 weeks, or 20 weeks, even and then that gets
appealed and works its way up the courts. That is one strategy, the
constitutional route. Then there is this strategy of just making it the
case that no one could actually provide abortions and that is what these
trap laws are doing in states around the country.

And, what is so exciting about what we saw today on the hill is that
finally, with the women`s health protection act, going on offense, saying
states can`t do this; that we finally instead of having bills that pretend
to protect women`s health, we have a bill in congress that is actually
going to be able to do something about supporting women`s health.

HAYES: This law, the Texas version of the law is precisely the law that
Wendy Davis did the filibuster over, her national platform, her run for
governor. And, it is the law that a federal judge struck down or part of
which was struck down by a federal judge and then overturned. You are
litigating that case, right?

NORTHUP: Absolutely. And, right now we are waiting for the Supreme Court
to decide any minute whether the injunction, which was ordered by the
district court after a trial is going to go back into place.

HAYES: Right.

NORTHUP: Because, what is happening right now in Texas is about a third of
the clinics in that state cannot see abortion patients right now. They are
being turned away at the door. They were being told they can`t keep their
appointment. So, it is the Supreme Court right now that is going to decide
whether or not that injunction gets put back in place.

HAYES: Erin, there is an asymmetry here that I think is really fundamental
to the way the politics of the issue of abortion and reproductive choice
more broadly plays out in this country. A republican legislature in any
state, almost, as soon as they get elected to run the state legislature,
they start going on offense with a whole variety of ways of trying to
restrict choice, or trying to ban abortion.

You do not see the same thing in reverse, which is to say when democrats
take over a state, they are not out there leading on this issue. What
accounts for that asymmetry? Why is it that the nature of our politics,
particularly at the state level?

CARMON: I mean I think that there are two things to say about that. One
is that people become complacent when their constitutional right is
technically guaranteed. And, I think that republicans and anti-choice
people have recognized that you can make this slip away, and that
privileged people will still have access to this right.

So the kinds of people who are out there on the streets and so on, or would
be out there on the streets are going to be able to access the services.
But, I would say that there is an exception to what you are setting up,
which is that recently the state of California, which has a democratic
governor in legislature passed a law that would expand access to abortion
by creating -- making it possible for nurse practitioners, nurse, mid-
wives, and physician`s assistants to perform abortions.

And that vastly increases the access particularly in rural areas, and
potentially reduces the amount of stigma and violence around abortion
provision. So, you know, it is happening out there. But it is harder to
fight for a right that you technical already have.

HAYES: Do you see the California law as a turning point in that way?

NORTHUP: Absolutely. It is another way of being able to go and expanding
access to abortion services. And, that is where people are not
understanding, what a crisis we are getting to in this country because, you
know, Senator Blumenthal talked about the fact that it used to be a
physical blockade.

HAYES: Right, we all remember that the kind of peak of the abortion about
the `90s, which centered on protestors outside clinics yelling, screaming,
harassing women, sometimes you know, violently threatening in some cases
murdering abortion providers. And, there was a legislative movement to
create ways to ensure that women had unfettered access to this one.

NORTHUP: That is right. And, there is a crisis in the early 1990s, and
congress stepped in and acted. And, it is the same place we are right now.
There was a crisis in access. It is now created by these bogus
regulations. They are having a real non-bogus effect, which is closing
down access to clinics. You know, it is time again for congress to step in
and make sure that across the nation there is one set of constitutional
rights for women, not depending on your zip code.

HAYES: If somebody works on this for a living -- is it your understanding
that you`re going to wake up every day and the next generation of women and
the next generation of women is going to wake up every day and have to
fight. That there is something about this fight that it is never settled,
that there is no equilibrium, that there is never any kind of final
victory. That every single day is a fight, fight, fight against the
abortionists who are trying to roll things back?

NORTHUP: Well, I think in some ways, it is like all the fight for human
rights. You know, they don`t just march forward in, you know, an
untrammeled way, you often have to fight hard to keep those rights. So,
yes, I expect we have to keep fighting hard. But, I don`t think that is
any different than other human rights. You have to stay on the front
rights and make sure that people understand why these rights are essential
to everyone`s lives.

HAYES: Erin, you have been doing some great reporting. You did some great
reporting out of Oklahoma. Do you think there is a disconnect in terms of
the national conversation on this and what the conversation is politically
and what the political for legislators in a state like Oklahoma?

CARMON: Well, sure, I mean these are some of the same incentives that you
see in the anti abortion House of Representatives. Then we talk about this
in the general political scene all the time. There are people who are
playing to a base. I mean you mentioned in your interview with Senator
Blumenthal that there are very -- that this a unifying issues for

There are very few unifying issues for republicans, but you know Lindsey
Graham, when he is facing a primary, where does he go? He goes right into
regulating women`s rights, because that is the one thing that they can
agree on. And, if you are a republican in the State House, it is pretty
easy for you to start striping away the rights of the most vulnerable. So,
you know, it is a real problem in places like Virginia.

HAYES: Right.

CARMON: That is a place where 59% of voters who said they were motivated
by abortion voted for the democrats.

HAYES: Nancy Northup from the Center for Reproductive Rights, Erin Carmon
from MSNBC.COM, thank you both. I appreciate it. That is "All In" for
this evening. "The Rachel Maddow" show starts right now. Good evening,

RACHEL MADDOW, MSNBC HOST: Good evening, Chris. Thanks a lot, man.


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