Skip navigation

All In With Chris Hayes, Thursday, July 10, 2014

Read the transcript from the Thursday show

  Most Popular
Most viewed

July 10, 2014

Guest: Robert Costa, Loretta Sanchez, Dora Hughes, Dean Baker, Stacy
Bigley, David Culver, Abby Phillip


CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST (voice-over): Tonight, we are ALL IN.


HAYES: The humanitarian crisis on the border.

OBAMA: If you`re mad at me for helping people on my own, let`s team

HAYES: The president rallies for a solution, and Republicans begin to
turn on each other. Tonight, the latest from the border, including a Rick
Perry photo op for the ages.

Then, new Obamacare numbers are out and they tell an amazing story,
but not for everyone.

And a Virginia teen is arrested for sexting a graphic video. Tonight,
an update on the police department that wanted to force the boy to re-enact
the crime scene.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They need more evidence to do a better side by

HAYES: ALL IN starts right now.


HAYES: Good evening from New York. I`m Chris Hayes.

There are signs tonight that the crisis at the border, the
humanitarian crisis, is driving Republicans to turn against each other. On
one side, reform-minded Republicans like South Carolina`s Senator Lindsey
Graham who warned his party not to block the president`s request for $3.7
billion to handle the surge of migrant children at the border. Saying,
quote, "If we do that, then we`re going to get blamed for perpetuating the

When asked about that assessment and whether it`s in Republicans` own
interest to approve the president`s request, here`s what House Speaker John
Boehner had to say.


REPORTER: Do you think do you have to approve this funding?

problem of the president`s own making. He`s been president for 5 1/2
years. When`s he going to take responsibility for something?


HAYES: Meanwhile, some Republicans are going so far as to publicly
chastise their own party for blocking comprehensive immigration reform in
the House. Congressman Mario Diaz-Balart, Republican, had this to say to
his party`s leadership, saying, quote, "It is highly irresponsible to not
deal with the issue by blocking reform. Whether it was when Nancy Pelosi
was speaking or now, we are in effect abdicating our duty."

On the Senate side, Arizona`s Jeff Flake put it in terms of the
party`s political future.


SEN. JEFF FLAKE (R), ARIZONA: If Republicans want a shot at national
office, we`ve got to deal with this in a responsible way. Not just to
appeal to the Hispanic vote or any other groups, but I think Americans
expect that a party governing ought to be rational, reasonable, and


HAYES: And with that kind of pressure mounting for the Republicans to
step up on immigration, we`re seeing signs of a potential compromise coming
into focus. "The Associated Press" reporting this afternoon Republicans
are demanding speedier deportations and that top House and Senate Democrats
pointedly left the door open to them.

Joining me now, Robert Costa, national political reporter for "The
Washington Post," one of the best sourced reporters about the Republicans
in the House of anyone.

And, Robert, what does your reporting indicate about how Boehner and
Republican leadership are reading the politics on this emergency budget

ROBERT COSTA, THE WASHINGTON POST: Well, Chris, I just got here from
the capitol, and I think on both sides, it`s pretty fluid. I think the
"A.P.`s"s right. If anything compromise is going to happen, it`s going to
be about quickening deportations. At the same time, the Republicans are
wary ahead of the midterms of striking any kind of grand deal on
immigration or the border with the president.

HAYES: Do you think that there`s a relationship between the
announcement today of the lawsuit by John Boehner, this novel kind of House
lawsuit which has to do actually with the implementation of Obamacare`s
employer mandate, relationship between that and the possibility that he`s
going to have to sort of shore up his right flank to possibly cut a deal on
this budget request?

COSTA: I think it`s a very revealing moment from Speaker Boehner. He
issued a statement tonight that said his lawsuit against the president will
only focus on the Affordable Care Act, and a few weeks ago, we thought
maybe the lawsuit from Boehner could be more broad, include executive
actions on immigration. Because Boehner`s statement tonight did not
include immigration, I think that means there`s room for a deal on some
kind of border package.

HAYES: It strikes me that Republicans are in a situation now where
they have been part of the brigade of people sort of talking about the
nature of the crisis, and in their terms, it`s a border crisis as opposed
to a sort of humanitarian crisis. It does seem to me difficult for the
House leadership, particularly if something passes out of the Senate, it
seems to me there`s going to be a huge amount of pressure on that House
Republican caucus.

COSTA: Oh, huge pressure. Republicans today outside of the House
floor during afternoon votes, they acknowledged that. But if it`s going to
pass this Republican House, a very conservative House, it`s probably going
to have offsets on spending in other departments.

HAYES: Is that what you think the demand is going to be? It seems
there`s two ways this can go. Demands and offsets on spending or demands
for sort of punitive measures, faster deportations, prohibition on asylum
grants to these kids.

COSTA: It will probably be a mix of both. But most Republicans
acknowledge a divided government. Spending offsets is probably the best
they can ask for.

HAYES: That`s interesting because it strikes me we sort of moved past
the austerity-era politics, at least in terms of what riles up the base and
it seems the base right now is much more concerned about the threat of some
kind of foreign invasion as it`s often being interpreted or communicated in
certain sectors of conservative media.

COSTA: Well, that`s the big problem right now for Speaker Boehner in
the House leadership and other Republicans here in Washington, is that they
believe they`re suing the president. They`re trying to show the base that
they stand with them. Yet at the same time, a lot of conservatives, Sarah
Palin and others, are talking about impeachment and that puts Boehner and
others in the corner because they don`t seem like they`re going far enough
for many on the right.

HAYES: Rick Perry, governor of Texas, had this to offer, what he`d
like to see in that package.


GOV. RICK PERRY (R), TEXAS: I asked him also to put 1,000 National
Guard troops, of course, this is a long-standing request for the president.
That`s a very, very important message for the president and for the United
States to send is to put those national guard troops on the border and
truly send a powerful message that the border is, in fact, secure.


HAYES: Wouldn`t be surprised if we see that in that bill compromise.

COSTA: I think so. And I think Perry is a force by meeting with the
president and going to him, he shows Republicans that it`s OK to engage on
this issue.

But at the same time, the political winds in Texas and elsewhere on
the right are not really with Governor Perry. They`re with other Texans
like Ted Cruz. I think we`re going to have to look to him to see where
conservatives want to go.

HAYES: Robert Costa from "The Washington Post" -- thank you.

COSTA: Thank you.

HAYES: For some politicians, when it comes to the border, theater is


OBAMA: There`s nothing that is taking place down there that I am not
intimately aware of and briefed on. This isn`t theater. This is a
problem. I`m not interested in photo ops.

HAYES (voice-over): Republicans` chief attack line on the president
has been focused on his decision not to visit the border rather than the
actual policy solution he`s proposed.

OBAMA: The challenge is, is Congress prepared to act to put the
resources in place to get this done?

HAYES: Just a few days ago, Rick Perry seemed to agree with Obama`s
call for action rather than posturing.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yesterday, Governor Perry said, I don`t want a
photo op and handshake, although thanks for the invitation, I want a
substantive meeting.

HAYES: It`s not the first time a Republican questioned the merits of
a photo op. In 2011, Perry`s fellow Texan, Senator John Cornyn, was also
against presidential events documented with pictures.

Before President Obama`s visit to the border that year, Cornyn blasted
the move through his spokesperson.

"What Senator Cornyn is looking for, President Obama cannot deliver
with another speech or photo op, and that`s presidential leadership. Words
matter little when there is no action."

In fact, there`s nothing that conservatives seem to hate more than an
Obama photo op.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Dress-up day at the white house when doctors in
lab coats posed for the president`s photo op. Did the press take the bait?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Should President Obama be doing more than just a
photo op in New Jersey and one in the war-room?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The president, he goes for his photo op, he`s

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`s using high school now as another photo op and
a prop.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The president is back in the gulf today. Now,
whether this is a work trip, or just a photo op, remains to be seen.

HAYES: But conservatives recently seem to have had a change of heart
about the utility of photo-friendly visits to the border.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Growing fallout from President Obama`s decision
not to visit the border in Texas.

SEN. TED CRUZ (R), TEXAS: Apparently, he doesn`t have time to
actually go and see the border. He doesn`t have time to see the children.

REP. TED POE (R), TEXAS: Why doesn`t the president go to the
Texas/Mexico border?

SEN. JOHN CORNYN (R), TEXAS: The president should see what we saw and
then he would perhaps reconsider his decision not to do anything to solve
the problem.

HAYES: With the photo op vacuum threatening to exacerbate the crisis,
the governor of Texas and Sean Hannity have decided to rise to the

PERRY: Tomorrow you`re going to be on the border.

SEAN HANNITY, FOX NEWS: I`m out with you.

PERRY: And in the river.

HANNITY: We`re going to be in the river. We`re going to be up in the
air. We`re going to be out on a boat and going to go up close and see it.

HAYES: Two men, one border. Many, many photos.

Here`s Rick Perry on a boat with Sean Hannity and a very large gun.
Here`s just Sean Hannity with a very large gun.

One thing to keep in mind here, at issue in the crisis that has
provoked this visit are tens of thousands of children, toddlers, and
infants desperate and afraid, alone in America.

HANNITY: Texas Governor Rick Perry is going to be giving me a tour of
our southern border. We`re going to be in the ground, we`re going to going
to be in the sky, and we want to show you, our viewers, how dire the
situation really is.

HAYES: There is at least a proposed solution to this dire situation.
It`s the president`s $3.7 billion emergency funding request that is now in
the hands of the Republican House.

Rick Perry isn`t a fan.

PERRY: The supplemental isn`t about securing the border. The
supplemental is about something else.

HANNITY: $3.7 billion is a lot of money.

PERRY: It is a huge amount of money. But, again, Sean, when you
start talking about less than $100 million of that is going to go for
border security --

HANNITY: Doesn`t work.

PERRY: It doesn`t work.

HAYES: If almost $4 billion in federal money to address the border
crisis won`t help, it`s not clear how a trip with Sean Hannity will.


HAYES: Joining me now, Congresswoman Loretta Sanchez, Democrat from
California. She`s a member of the House Homeland Security Committee.

And, Congresswoman, explain to me why this supplemental funding
request will actually solve the problem at issue.

REP. LORETTA SANCHEZ (D), CALIFORNIA: Well, the first issue is that
the border security is working. In other words, aside from walls and
fences that we`ve got, we`ve actually apprehending people. So, as these
people come across the border, we`re grabbing them.

So, what happens there? We`ve got these children.

The problem is that our detention centers, the places where we hold
them until they have judicial review, aren`t made for families. They`re
not made for young people. Because traditionally that`s not what we`ve had
come across. And I`ve been dealing with these detention center issues for
a long time on this committee.

So, one of the things would be to make sure that we have facilities
that facilitate having young youngsters and because those are different
than when you hold adults. And secondly, to have families so we can keep
families who are coming across together also. So, that`s one of the
biggest issues.

HAYES: So, some of the money would be to construct -- let me just
stop you there. Some of the money would be to construct these kinds of
facilities. Can that happen quickly enough to deal with the situation?

SANCHEZ: Well, certainly it has to. It`s not that we have to
construct them. It`s that we might have to lease them or we might have to
find them or might have to reconfigure them. And so, we need to do that
and we need to do that as quickly as possible.

The other issue is that there are different needs for children than
there are for adults, and so, some of the moneys would go to that.

The other issue is that where they`re coming across, we may need more
border patrol, more people on that border to be able to get them.

And then one of the rules, one of the laws that was passed about -- in
the last year of President W., George Bush, was that these children,
unaccompanied minors, actually do get their day in court.


SANCHEZ: They do get a judicial review. There are not enough judges,
there are not enough places in which to get this judicial review done.

HAYES: There`s a remarkable --

SANCHEZ: Part of the moneys would be for that.

HAYES: There`s a remarkable backlog. This is a pretty astounding

There are 375,000 pending immigration cases. This is immigration in
general. There are 243 judges to deal with those cases. OK?

So, we`re talking about a system that just take unaccompanied minors
even out of the equation, is a tremendously backlogged, overwhelmed system.
Is the idea that some of this funding, and Senator John McCain has put
forward a proposal, some of this funding goes to actually getting enough
judges that you can process the legitimate claims these kids might have for

Because it appears from what I`ve read, reported by the U.N. and
others, some of them might have asylum claims.

SANCHEZ: Actually, yes, because if there are guerrilla warfare, if
there are militia who are taking these young people, let`s say you`re 14 or
you`re 12 and you`re being taken as a child soldier, for example. Those
would be cases in which we wouldn`t want to send these types of children
back to those home countries.

But in order for us to know that, we have to do some investigation.
We have to understand what far of that country are they coming from? What
are their stories? We have to document this.

So, there would be some humanitarian asylum, some refugee asylum visas
that would be available to them. In order to do that, we need to have the
staff to do that. We need to have a judge to rule, a court in which to put
them in.

HAYES: It strikes me, Congresswoman, the ask is going to be on the
other side for expedited deportations or amending the 2008 law. We`ll look
to see how that develops.

Congresswoman Loretta Sanchez, thank you so much.

SANCHEZ: Thank you.

HAYES: All right. The Koch brothers-backed group Americans for
Prosperity has spent millions trying to destroy Obamacare. A new study
shows they succeed in doing something else entirely. I`ll explain, ahead.




RICK BOONE: Hey, there, Shawn, and, Will. This one is going to have
you saying what, what? Yes, this is a bizarre sexting case.


HAYES: That`s actually underselling the story that we`re going to
bring you later in the show.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I see you`re new to Obamacare as well.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, I saw the ads and figured why not?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Take your pants off.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All right. Hop up here. Lay down and bring your
knees to your chest.


HAYES: Remember that creepy Uncle Sam anti-Obamacare ad that ran last
fall? How could you forget it? Gave the not so subtle impression signing
up for Obamacare was the ultimate case of political submission. Here`s
another negative ad. This from the Koch brothers-backed Americans for


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Obamacare is dangerous. It can`t be
implemented. Our government is not organized to take care of us. They
aren`t. They can`t.


HAYES: According to "The Washington Post," Americans for Prosperity
spent $30 million since last July on ads attacking Obamacare.

Kantar Media, a group that looks at political TV ad spending,
estimates since the signing of Obamacare in 2010, $408 million has been
spent on ads attacking the law. Compared to just $27 million on ads
supporting the law. That`s a 15-1 negative to positive ratio.

The obvious intent of all that negative spending was to drive people
away from Obamacare.

But there`s an old PR cliche that goes, I don`t care what they say
about me as long as they spell my name right. Meaning, even bad press gets
your name out there. It looks like that might have been the case for

A new report published yesterday by the Brookings Institute suggests
that all that negative publicity may have backfired and driven people to
sign up for Obamacare. The report found a positive association between the
anti-ACA spending and ACA enrollment. Or in other words, it appears states
that did really well in signing people up for Obamacare had a higher number
of ads bashing the law.

The thinking here, according to the study, was that people began
signing up for insurance because they thought Obamacare just might get
repealed. Quote, "People who believe subsidized health insurance may soon
disappear could have a greater willingness to take advantage of this one-
time opportunity."

All this to say, it looks like the Koch brothers are somewhat
responsible for the lowest percentage of uninsured Americans since 2008, as
this new Gallup data shows. Now, that`s the good news.

There`s also some pretty interesting data that shows those gains are
pretty inequality distributed among different groups. Take, for instance,
the percentage of the uninsured by age, the largest decline in the
uninsured among folks between the ages of 18 to 39.

And for a program that was looked at by some members of the right as,
"reparations," the racial group that`s done the least well under Obamacare
by far is African-Americans who over an 11-month period saw a decline in
the uninsured of just 1 percent.

Joining me now is Dora Hughes, former councilor for science and public
health to former Secretary Kathleen Sebelius at Department of Health and
Human Services. She now works for law firm Sidley as a senior policy

How do you account for that tremendous racial disparity in the decline
of the uninsured that we`re seeing so far?

DORA HUGHES, SIDLEY: Well, certainly I think the findings from this
latest commonwealth fund survey were surprising, that it showed such a
little decline. Earlier analysis put out by the federal government showed
that if you just looked at the population, the individuals enrolled in
health plans offered through the federally facilitated marketplace, 16
percent of enrollees were African-American.

So, in some level, I don`t want the perception that from African-
Americans or a significant number of African-Americans were helped in
anyway by the ACA, because that`s not true.

HAYES: Well, it seems that part of it, though -- if I could stop you
there, sorry -- it seems part of it when you`re talking about the exchanges
is one thing, but a lot of that coverage is coming from Medicaid expansion,

HUGHES: That, in fact, I think will be driving most of the problems
we`re seeing right now. At the end of the day, only half of states
expanded Medicaid coverage. Minorities, African-Americans are
disproportionately likely to be served by Medicaid. They`re
disproportionately more likely to be more low income.

And, unfortunately, African-Americans, other minorities are
disproportionately more likely to reside in states that chose not to expand
Medicaid coverage.

So, until, we really address that challenge, we`re not going to
realize the full gains that many of us anticipated from the earliest days.

HAYES: To put that map up back there in the South, particularly,
where there are very high populations of African-Americans in states like
Louisiana and Alabama and Mississippi and Florida and North and South
Carolina, places all that have chosen not to expand Medicaid.

Your reaction to the study that suggests that possibly all the anti-
Obamacare spending might have spurred enrollment. When you were working
inside HHS, is that something that anyone ever considered as a possibility?

HUGHES: No, but at the same time, though, I would have to say, if we
look at the grassroots efforts, the efforts by the patient navigators, the
assistants, so many other community-based organizations that were actually
on the ground, I think that certainly they should be commended along with
the federal and the state government officials in helping to mitigate any
potential damage by these ads and other anti-Obama care efforts.

They really just did an extraordinary job and I think that`s why we`re
seeing the $14 million insured Americans that we`ve found today.

HAYES: When you look at those Gallup numbers, and that Gallup chart
is pretty arresting, I mean, the numbers really dropped, is that what was
anticipated inside HHS? I mean, how much uncertainty was there about the
rate at which this would work when implemented?

HUGHES: Well, certainly in the earliest days we always talked about
when health reform is fully implemented, but there`s so many different
uncertainties between both the election, second election, the Supreme Court
ruling. The funding was always constrained in terms of what the federal
government thought that it would need.

There are so many factors working against us that it`s thrilling on
many levels to see how far we`ve come. But to your earlier point, we have
much more work to do particularly with some of the vulnerable populations,
minority populations and low income. And that is something that the
federal government and the state governments are already starting to tackle
well in advance of the second enrollment season. So, I expect that we`re
going to see a continued trend, positive trend in terms of those that are

HAYES: Yes, I`d love to run those numbers if you had full 50 state
Medicaid expansion what the predicted drop is, because you`re got to
imagine it would be massive.

Former HHS counselor for science and public health, Dora Hughes --
thank you.

HUGHES: Thank you.

HAYES: Today, the president of the United States got before a big
audience, on a microphone, and compared himself to Marky Mark. It
happened. I`ll give you the full context.


HAYES: Just hours ago, President Obama spoke on the phone with
Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu telling him the United States is
willing to negotiate a cease-fire between Israel and Hamas, according to
the White House. The president also, according to the White House,
reaffirming Israel`s right to defend itself against continuing rocket fire
by Hamas and other militant groups in Gaza.

A hundred seventy rockets have been fired into Israel in the last day,
alone, according to the Israeli Defense Forces, including several aimed for
major cities of Tel Aviv and Jerusalem.

Hamas, itself, which is firing the rockets, makes no bones about
targeting civilians with its own spokesperson saying on Tuesday, all
Israelis have now become legitimate targets.

Meanwhile, as Israel continues to fire strikes at Gaza, the IDF is
defending its own targeting of residential houses tweeting, "Hamas uses
Palestinian homes in Gaza for military purposes." Israel also employed a
purpose known as roof knocking, actually calling a household to warn them
before an attack.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): "I`m David", he said, "And
he called me by my name," she tells me. He said, "Get out of your house
for your children`s sake."


HAYES: There is in short, an asymmetry between the stated intentions
of Hamas and stated intentions of the Israeli government. Hamas says it`s
explicitly targeting civilians and Israeli defense force says it is not.

This distinction has real moral import. We all distinguish between
someone who accidentally kills a child in a car crash and someone who plots
and executes a murder. And in war, we have laws that make a clear-cut
distinction between military and civilian targets and place the intentional
targeting of civilians very clearly off limits. That is why Amnesty
International has called, the indiscriminate firing of rockets from Gaza, a
war crime.

But, intention when it comes to violence and war is not the end of the
story. Effect matters as well. And, to look at the effects of the
missiles and rocket fire exchange between Hamas and Israel is to see yet
another glaring asymmetry. So far, no Israelis have been killed in the
latest round of violence. Thanks in part to Israel`s sophisticated mass
missile defense system.

While, on the other side, 89 Palestinians have lost their lives
according to Gaza Ministry of Health including 15 women and 24 children.
That includes a family killed in their home in the city of Komunis and at
least eight Palestinians gathered on the beach to watch yesterday`s world
cup match between Argentina and the Netherlands.

Gaza is one of the most densely populated places on earth, with 1.8
million people crammed into an area about 25 miles long and 5 miles wide.
In that environment, no amount of precision will stop 110 air strikes in
one day from wreaking terrible havoc on civilians. The imbalance in
casualties that we are seeing right now has been replicated it in every
single round of armed conflict between Israelis and Palestinians over the
last 14 years.

In the last major hostilities, among almost 1,400 Palestinians were
killed. Over half were actually taking part according to human rights
group B`Tselem. It is easy to forget the numbers represent human beings --
fellow human beings, real people with names. Those people who are dead
today are as real as the three Israeli teenagers who were kidnapped and
murdered and a Palestinian teen murdered last week.

The mothers and fathers and kin and friends and cousins they leave
behind mourn just as intensely as the families of those young victims we
all saw displayed on the news. As a matter of both ethical principle and
public perception around the world, at a certain point, the effect of
violence and its magnitude begins to swallow whatever moral intent is
behind it. Enough women and children and soccer watchers on the beach are
marched to their graves, and people stop caring what you meant to do. And,
it is hard to blame them.



"The Departed," a little violent for kids, but -- There is a scene in the
movie where Mark Wahlberg, they are on a stakeout and somehow the guy loses
the guy that they are tracking and Wahlberg is all upset and, you know,
yelling at the guy and the guy looks up and says, who are you? And,
Wahlberg says, "I am the guy doing my job." You must be the other guy.
Sometimes I feel like saying to these guys, "I am the guy doing my job.
You must be the other guy."


HAYES: President Obama`s number one job, the one he says that he is
doing, at the very least politically is to create jobs. That is the thing
he is going to be judged on. And, even if the president cannot necessarily
take credit for all the jobs created under his administration, a president
certainly takes the blame when those jobs are not being created. A pretty
remarkable thing happened right before the July 4th weekend.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER (1): Superb number, really great for the
economy, therefore great for the stock market.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER (2): Jobs growth, just perfect. Stronger
than people expected, exactly what everybody wants.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER (3): This is a demand-driven hiring because
it is so across the board.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER (4): Happy jobs Thursday, and happy 4th to

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER (5): The fifth month in a row the number
has been over 200,000. That news sent the unemployment rate down to 6.1
percent. That is a 6-year low.


HAYES: The jobs report had come out during the pre-election days of
2012 saying there had been 288,000 jobs added, or if it had not been lost
in last weekend`s holiday rush, it would have been a major part of the news
cycle. It was the 52nd week of consecutive job growth.

That huge set of dips on the left there is the great recession. Red
for the end of the Bush era and blue for the Obama presidency, which as the
facts suggest first dug the economy out of a deep hole then added jobs.
Yes, sometimes sporadically.

But, now there is evidence of far more consistency and strong growth.
Over the past year, employers have added nearly 2.5 million jobs. The most
in a one-year period in eight years. So, why have not we heard more about
this, and also what is next? Joining me now, Dean Baker, co-director of
the Center for Economics & Policy Research, co-author of "Getting Back To
Full Employment."

I wanted to have you on, Dean because you are the most eloquent voice
for the power of full employment. So, I wanted to get your reaction to
what does begin to really look like real genuine sustained job growth.

Well, thanks, Chris. That is a big thing to live up to. You know, it
definitely is a good story. You know, I have been a critic as you know of
the pace of the recovery. It is still not great. We could be looking at
much, much better.

But, you know, the reality was we had two months in a row averaged
270,000 jobs a month. If we kept that up, we are about three years from
full employment. I am not betting we will, but that is a good start. It
is really good news. And, there are a lot of things.

You know, I saw your earlier segment you were talking about the
Affordable Care Act. That is having, to my view, a very positive impact on
the labor market. One of the things in this report I have not heard anyone
tout, we saw that voluntary -- I am emphasizing voluntary part-time
employment is up 800,000 over last year.

Point here is that you, you have had a lot of people that used to have
to work at a full-time job in order to get health care insurance now,
because the Affordable Care Act, they are getting it through Medicaid.
They are getting it through the exchanges. They have the option to work
part time. I know that gets people angry, but to my view, that is a great

HAYES: Yes. Explain why that is a great thing. People will -- this
is a big talking point about the economy on the right about people "A"
leaving the labor force, or too much part-time work. Why is increase in
voluntary part-time employment possibly due to the ACA a good thing in your

BAKER: OK. Well, you know, ideally we want people to have better
living standards. That means if they have kids, young kids they want to
stay home with, I thought we believed in family values and stuff, this
means a lot of people have that option who did not previously.

You have a lot of older workers, they are in bad health, and maybe
want to be partly retired. They want to have that option. They are not
yet at Medicare age. That gives them that option. So, there are a lot of
people in different positions in their lifetime who want part-time work.
And, I am not talking about involuntary part-time --

HAYES: Right.

BAKER: That is bad news. That is still high. We are talking about
people having that option who did not previously. And, that is great news
in my book.

HAYES: Dean, will you give me a benchmark when you talk about the
period of real full employment. The lowest unemployment we have had was in
the late 1990s. Around 1997, I think -- 1998.

BAKER: 2000.

HAYES: It was 2000, right?


HAYES: So, will you give me a benchmark sense of what kind of monthly
job creation number we were getting back then and how this compares?

BAKER: Well, we were getting about 250,000 a month at the end of the
1990s. And, that was really quite striking. You know, we had a labor
force that was about 10 percent smaller, but what was striking then was we
were already at what most economists thought was full employment. They
were wrong. They were wrong.

I have a lot of economists laughing at me like I was an idiot because
I thought we can get the unemployment rate down to even 5 percent. We got
the 4 percent. But, they were wrong. So, it was really striking that we
had that sort of job growth in an economy where we are near full

HAYES: And, this brings me to my next question, which is thinking
about what the next 2 1/2 years hold, because obviously prediction is
difficult. But, it strikes me there is two different ways to consider what
is happening. One is if you look at the average duration of a post-war
expansion, it is about 5-1/2 years.

We are getting near the point in the business cycle where you might
naturally expect a recession. The same time, we are seeing very strong
numbers and because we are coming out of a hole so deep, there is some hope
that we could actually see things really, really take off.

BAKER: Well, I am not in the takeoff school, but I am also not in the
recession school.


BAKER: People say this are just being sloppy. Recessions are either
brought about by the Fed raising interest rates to quell inflation. They
would be nuts to do that. Janet Yellen is the not nuts. We will not see
that. The other way we get recessions is you get a bubble that bursts. We
do not have a bubble. And, you know, Chris, I saw the last one --

HAYES: Yes. You are not shy about pointing out bubbles.

BAKER: Yes. I am not going to miss one. So, I do not think we are
going to see recession, but I am also not confident we are going to see the
robust growth, sustained, you know, the 288,000 jobs we saw last month. I
am afraid I do not think that will happen.

HAYES: I hope you are wrong, Dean Baker --

BAKER: I hope so, too.

HAYES: -- from the Center For Economics & Policy Research. Take

BAKER: You, too.

HAYES: All right. Prosecutor Ebert on getting a teenager to drop his
pants for justice`s sake. Not making it up. That is next.


HAYES: I cannot in any way improve on the lead of an article in the
"Washington Post" yesterday that introduces our next story. So, I am just
going to read it. And, I quote, "A Manassas City teenager accused of
sexting a video to his girlfriend is now facing a search warrant in which
Manassas city police and Prince William County prosecutors want to take a
photo of his erect penis. Possibly forcing the teen to become erect by
taking him to the hospital and giving him an injection," the teen is lawyer

You heard that right. The Virginia teenager`s name is Trey Sims.
And, his aunt says police have already taken some explicit photos of him
when he was first arrested last month, a claim that police dispute.
Reporter David Culver with our NBC affiliate in Washington who broke this
story fills in the details.


seized Trey`s iPhone and iPad. They charged him with manufacturing and
distributing child pornography. He is accused of sexting with another
minor, his then-girlfriend. Trey`s court-appointed legal protector says
the prosecution wants more nude pictures of the teen to compare with their


HAYES: Now, this story absolutely blew up yesterday on the internet.
It was very, on news outlets. And, just about everyone else expressing
disbelief that authorities would want to forcibly take sexually explicit
photos of a teenage boy. And, it was not just the media.

Authorities were reportedly fielding irate calls from across the
country and internationally after this story broke. The outrage seems to
have had an impact. The police now say they will no longer try to take
sexually explicit pictures of the teen, though, and this is important, the
case against him has not been dropped.

Joining me now is Stacy Bigley, Trey`s aunt and legal guardian, and
reporter David Culver from NBC 4 in Washington. Stacey, can I start with
you? How did this all start? When did you first become aware of this

at my door with the first search warrant back in January.

HAYES: And, they showed up with search warrant and they said what?

BIGLEY: They said that they were there to confiscate Trey`s iPad and
his iPhone because he was being charged with two felony charges of
manufacturing and producing child pornography.

HAYES: And, did they then subsequently communicate to you what seems
to everyone who has heard this story insane request about getting
subsequent photos from him?

BIGLEY: No, that did not come until later. Whenever he had his first
trial, or his first hearing, that is when that came. It gotten all
processed and then once that is happened, that is when they came with a
search warrant probably about less than three hours after we left court.

HAYES: David, can you tell me what the origins of these are? How
this case got started in the first place?

was interesting on what Stacy just said, when they initially dropped those
charges, and that happened in June, because this started, Chris, back in
January. So, several months of investigations, and then it came to June
and they dropped the charges.

But, as Stacy just said, three hours later they showed up at her door
with an arrest warrant. They then arrested Trey. They brought him to jail
and Stacy as we interviewed her last week for the first time, she told us
that Trey called her from jail and said that they had made him strip down
and take a picture of him nude.

HAYES: And, the police department is denying that, but Stacy, you say
that your nephew said they already took pictures of him.

BIGLEY: They did.

HAYES: David, what kind of charges is he facing and what kind of time
is he looking at?

CULVER: Well, the big news today as you said, the police chief, he e-
mailed me, he said they are no longer going through with that search
warrant. Other big part of this is this is not over. And, the two felony
charges that he is facing, manufacturing and distribution of child
pornography. These are felonies.

And, so, it is possible a judge in Virginia, the Juvenile Domestic
Relations Court, could find him guilty and then could give him jail time or
he could be forced to register as a sex offender and what we have to
remember here is he is a minor.

HAYES: Stacy, why do you think the prosecutor is doing this? Have
you talked to the prosecutor`s office? I mean, what do you make of this?

BIGLEY: They do not even communicate with me. I have spoken to them
in the very -- actually, I have never spoken to the prosecutors. The
detective, yes, but no one else. They have not communicated anything with
us. Only people I have been communicating with are trey`s attorneys. No
one else has said anything. So, I do not know why they are coming out now
saying that there are no pictures because there are.

HAYES: David, now, there is -- there are serious charges this young
man faces.

CULVER: Right.

HAYES: You have been in contact with the prosecutors. Do they
understand how this appears to everyone else? That this seems like a
deranged jihad to people to possibly ruin the life of a young man for
something from the outside appears to be a relatively harmless thing a
teenager might do with another teenager?

CULVER: Well, Chris, I think it is important to look, you know, the
city of Manassas Police Department on the outset, they are trying to tackle
what is essentially an epidemic with sexting within the school systems, but
they are going about it charging him as a felony. And, I think they do
understand the severity of it.

You know, I did speak to the commonwealth`s attorney, Paul Ebert
today, on the phone. And, the only thing he wanted to say on record was
that he was questioning the teen suspect, Trey Sims` allegations here and
he said they lack credibility. But, then just a few hours later we heard
from the police chief that they are no longer going forward with that so-
called invasive search warrant.

So, I think what is interesting is that we are seeing some
contradictory statements coming out of commonwealth`s attorney office as
well as the city of Manassas police department. As it goes forward now,
there is a trial date set.

HAYES: Stacy, do you understand the origin of this? Was there a
complaint. Is there an allegation that your nephew was doing something --
was harassing the young woman that he was sending this to, or this was not
a consensual exchange?

BIGLEY: No. They were dating. They were boyfriend and girlfriend.
And from what I understand is the mom basically is mad that her daughter
was doing things she should not have been doing, and maybe this is why this
all happened. Because as a parent, if I have a problem with something that
my child is doing or another child is doing, I will go directly to the
other parent and talk to them about it first instead of calling the cops
and taking it the route that she did.

HAYES: And David, is it your understanding that that is how the
complaint initiated?

CULVER: That is the way that certainly the defense has portrayed it.
You have to understand the police department, they are not putting out too
much information. They did say that this started with a 15-year-old girl
and with a 17-year-old. They are not obviously putting any names out
there. But, they say it happened that the boy, Trey Sims, was sending
these text messages and they say that he told him repeatedly to stop
sending them, but that is, of course, their portrayal of it.

HAYES: Stacy Bigley and David Culver, thank you very much.


BIGLEY: Thank you.

HAYES: All right, this story seems extreme, but it is actually part
of a way bigger trend. The prosecution of sexting by minors and the use
of, in some cases, child pornography laws to prosecute teens engaging in
consensual behavior. It is happening all around us. We will talk about
it, ahead.


HAYES: According to the Cyber Bullying Research Center, as of
December, 17 states have lost in the votes regarding minors sending or
receiving sexually explicit text messages. Joining me now, Abby Phillip,
reporter for "The Washington Post" where she has been covering this. So,
Abby, there has been a raft of laws targeted at essentially criminalizing
teenagers sexting each other, right?

do with the fact that as you mentioned, school districts, parents, police
departments are trying to deal with this epidemic of sexting. More than
half of teenagers admit to sexting and about a third of those who do admit
to sexting send sexually explicit images. It is common.

HAYES: But, can I ask you this question? We have heard the phrase
epidemic of sexting. Is not there an epidemic of teenagers doing sexual
things with each other, like before there was sexting? I mean we talk
about it, like, you know, teenagers are sitting around doing nothing, then
the cell phone, smartphone came along and they started sexting.

PHILLIP: Yes. I mean, I think that is true. Teenagers have been
dating and going steady for years. It is just a little easier for them to
communicate with each other via Instagram or Snap Chat or Tinder or what
have you. It just makes it more of a public demonstration of some of these
things that might have been going on before in private.

HAYES: But, I guess I still fail to see the legal logic of why it
should be illegal.

PHILLIP: Yes. And, I think a lot of states actually do not
necessarily think that the remedy is to criminalize this behavior. I mean,
child pornography laws are intended to protect children. So, when you use
them to prosecute children, it seems like a bit of a misapplication of the

So, there have been a handful of states who have gone in a slightly
different direction by creating statutes that move sexting into a different
category and allow for teens to be rehabilitated or educated in a way that
could prevent this from happening.

HAYES: So, this is an important point. So, there are states that
have created sexting laws as a way of not using child pornography laws so
that a teen who is guilty of sending an image of themselves cannot be
prosecuted under child pornography laws but would be prosecuted under
presumably much less harsh sexting laws?

PHILLIP: Absolutely. I mean I think they recognize that this is a
real problem. You can be labeled as a sex offender for potentially the
rest of your life, but also maybe up to 15 years. And, for kids who are
16, 17 years old, that is a long time. I think people recognize that that
punishment may not fit the crime.

And, so they are looking at other avenues to find ways to teach kids
about what they are not supposed to do. And, the severity of passing along
images that are sexually explicit in nature to people who are under the age
of 18.

HAYES: Well, so, the question that seems to me, do these laws mix
distinctions between two big things? One, what kind of age gap we are
talking about? And, you know, the person at the lower end of the age gap,
big difference between 16 and 12. And number 2, whether this is consensual
or not. If two 16-year-olds are sending images to each other, I genuinely
fail to see what the public policy problem is.

PHILLIP: Right. Some of the laws specifically define sexting in
terms of what they are intended to accomplish.


PHILLIP: So, if sexting is intended to sort of create some sort of
sexual gratification, they define it in very specific ways -- some of them.
But, on the other hand, I think that in general, the vast majority of laws
apply to people who are under the age of 18 and it almost does not matter
what the age difference is.

HAYES: Right.

PHILLIP: Or how close they are to 18. And, that is the arbitrary
nature of some of the laws that existed far before we had things like cell
phones and kids sending text messages to each other.

HAYES: Right. And, this seems to me the key thing, right? If you
have a kid who is a 16-year-old and receiving a barrage of unwanted sexual
text messages or images from someone, you want the law to protect them.
You want to be able to prosecute those people or stop people from doing

But, the notion of consent seems to me to be so crucial to whether
this is a policy problem. It is baffling it would not be baked into the
law. Abby Phillip from "The Washington Post." thanks so much. I
appreciate it.

PHILLIP: Thanks for having me.

HAYES: All right, that is "All In" for this evening. "The Rachel
Maddow Show" starts right now.

Chris, thanks, man.

HAYES: You bet.


<Copy: Content and programming copyright 2014 NBC. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.
Copyright 2014 CQ-Roll Call, Inc. All materials herein are protected by
United States copyright law and may not be reproduced, distributed,
transmitted, displayed, published or broadcast without the prior written
permission of CQ-Roll Call. You may not alter or remove any trademark,
copyright or other notice from copies of the content.>

Sponsored links

Resource guide