'The Rachel Maddow Show' for Wednesday, January 7, 2015
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THE RACHEL MADDOW SHOW
January 7, 2015
Guest: Fawaz Gerges, Jeff Danziger
RACHEL MADDOW, MSNBC HOST: Thank you very much, Chris. Thank you
Thanks to you at home for joining us for the next hour.
We do actually have breaking news right now about the search for the
three suspects in the Paris massacre today. NBC News` Pete Williams says
he is hearing from French authorities now that the youngest suspect of the
three suspects has surrendered to French authorities.
Agence France Presse, AFP, which is the French wire service, is also
reporting this. This is breaking news. We`re just getting word of this
We`re going to go to NBC News justice correspondent Pete Williams to
figure out about what`s going on with this latest information.
Pete, what do we know?
PETE WILLIAMS, NBC NEWS JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: OK. Well, that is a
fraught question, it turns out, because this has been a day of rapidly
I give you case in point. Were there two gunmen in this or three
people involved? That`s been a question all day long that`s been hard to
get a good answer on. The French authorities said that there were three
suspects, two of them were brothers, one aged 34, the other aged 32, the
other they said was an 18-year-old. But they never gave -- never confirmed
any names and indeed, I don`t think any news organization -- well, maybe
some, but we haven`t reported any names.
And now, they say tonight that the 18-year-old has turned himself in.
That`s thing one. Unclear at this -- still at this point what role if any,
the 18-year-old played in this.
The second thing, Rachel, is that French authorities have now put out
a wanted poster with the photographs and the names of the two older
suspects in this and they`re now asking for public help in finding them.
They say they are at large.
Now, earlier today, about less than three hours ago, two U.S.
counterterrorism authorities told NBC News that a -- a different account,
that one of the suspects had been detained and two of the suspects had been
killed. Now the counterterrorism officials tell us tonight that the
information that was the basis of that report cannot be confirmed.
So, this is just been a day like this all day long. Not unusual in
one of these rapidly unfolding events, but the best information we have
tonight is that two are still on the loose, that French authorities are
asking them -- asking for help in finding them and that the younger person,
which the French authorities had call a suspect, has turned himself in and
is now talking to police.
MADDOW: Pete, do we know if there is a physical locus for this
information? Meaning, do we know where this 18-year-old has reportedly
turned himself in to police? Do we know if they had tracked him to
somewhere, or if he voluntarily came forward? I ask obviously because that
might attend to the question of whether or not he was in fact involved as a
co-conspirator or indeed as an attacker.
WILLIAMS: Right. Fair question, and I just don`t know the answer.
Pete, in terms of further information or the prospects for information
tonight, is there anything we should be watching for in terms of an
official statement from the French government or the French police or
anything else to look at from that?
WILLIAMS: Yes, there is this official statement, this poster they`ve
put out with the photographs and the names of the two and the request for
public help in finding them. These two are at large.
This is -- there you go. That`s what it looks like.
This is a technique that many police in many nations have used. In
fact, the French have used it in the past in crimes. They`ve put out
something that looks very much like this and asked for public help in
A lot of law enforcement agencies do this, the U.S. has done it, the
FBI has done it in the past. And so, you can see the pictures look pretty
much like the ones that you`re seeing here and these two brothers, who are
the authorities earlier said tonight were living in France -- living in
Paris not far from where this newspaper office was located.
MADDOW: NBC News justice correspondent Pete Williams -- thanks, Pete.
As this continue to evolve, I imagine we`ll be calling you for further help
with this. Thank you very much.
MADDOW: Thank you.
It was late this afternoon before French authorities gave any
indication about who these attackers might be. Again now we believe, as
far as the French authorities are indicating, that it would be two brothers
and then one younger suspect. Again, Pete Williams reporting that breaking
news, that according to French authorities the younger suspect, the 18-
year-old may have turned himself in to police now. But if the French
authorities have now released the picture and names of these two brothers
on this wanted poster, that implies both that they are relatively, at least
to their own satisfaction, certain of their identities, and that those two
men are on the loose.
It was this afternoon, before French authorities did start giving any
indication of who might have been responsible. These -- as I say, these
are the two men who have been identified by name and for whom we have what
we believe to be pictures of them. They are believed to be brothers.
Now, the man we don`t have a picture of here, the younger man, 18
years old, we`re told, and who may now be in police custody. He`s not
known -- at least nobody has asserted that he`s related to the other men
who are said to be in their 30s, again, the younger man 18 years old.
If this information about the identity of the two older men, these two
reported brothers, if it turns out to be accurate that these were the
gunmen, then one of the things that people have been trying to track down
today is contemporaneous news accounts in which they have either one of
these men has been mentioned in any other context.
And there is one news account from 2005 from "The New York Times" that
suggests that at least one of these two men has been known to authorities
for a long time as a terrorist or at least a wannabe terrorist. This
article from "The New York Times" in 2005 names Cherif Kouachi as one of
three French young men who were arrested while trying to travel from Europe
to Iraq to join the fight against U.S. troops during the Iraq war.
Now, he apparently never made it there. He was arrested while trying
to fly to Iraq via Damascus. "The Associated Press" today says he was
later convicted in France of not just trying to fight himself in the Iraq
war but of trying to funnel other European fighters into that conflict.
At his trial, he reportedly claimed that it was Abu Ghraib that
motivated him to want to go to fight in Iraq. It was those images of U.S.
troops brutalizing prisoners in the Abu Ghraib prison that made him want to
travel to Iraq. At that trial, he was convicted. There are conflicting
reports today about whether he served time in trial after that conviction
or whether he was sentenced essentially to time served.
But if you were a young militant after 9/11, if you found yourself
eager to fight in some jihadi campaign for the cause of violent Islamic
extremism, that path that this young man tried to take in 2005 for which he
was convicted in 2008, that was a very well-worn path, the war in Iraq, to
a certain extent the war in Afghanistan, certainly the civil war in Syria,
they`ve all served as international magnets for militant motivated Islamic
extremists from all over the world, including from the United States.
That`s why militant groups have been able to put up propaganda videos like
this one showing Western kids tearing up their passports and ranting about
how fulfilling it is to blow yourself up in fighting in some foreign
This video from last year was put out by ISIS featured a suicide
bomber who was an American who grew up in Florida. That`s him tearing up
his passport and burning it.
There`s also this propaganda video, this separate one that was put
out. It`s showing burning passports, but this is a different video. This
was put out by ISIS in November. In this case, it`s not an American kid,
and not just one person. Three western guys, three French guys who are all
shown tearing up their passports and doing the usual, you know,
exhortations to their audience to kill, kill, kill for jihad.
But in this case, in this propaganda video from November, these French
guys are not just ranting at other young militants that they should come
the Iraq and Syria to join in the fight with ISIS there, in this video from
November, these French speaking guys are also making the case speaking in
French that anybody who finds that they cannot travel to Iraq or Syria to
join the fight with the Islamic State there should instead find targets at
home, should instead find soft targets in France to attack for the cause of
That French language video was put out by ISIS in November. And the
kind of directive from that video is in keeping with some of the other
strategies of international terrorist groups now, right? The al Qaeda
online magazine "Inspire". "Inspire" is probably known in this country for
being linked to the suspects in the Boston marathon bombing.
But this magazine has been around for a few years now and it does what
you`d expect, right? It tries to make heroes out of al Qaeda figures and
to spread al Qaeda ideology, trying to make villains out of everyone in the
West. The most recent issue features a fake interview with President Obama
where President Obama tells al Qaeda about all the terrible thing he`s done
and how terrible America is, right?
But the point of "Inspire" as propaganda is not necessarily to try to
recruit Muslim radicals to leave wherever they are in the world and travel
to Yemen or Pakistan or wherever, to join existing groups of al Qaeda
fighters. The point of the al Qaeda "Inspire" magazine is this stuff --
build a bomb in the kitchen of your mom, right? Or their latest detailed
instructions on exactly how the make car bombs, or how to rig a pickup
truck`s bumper, if you drive the truck into the right kind of pedestrian
I mean, this is a Western-style English-language magazine designed
specifically for readers who have Internet access and get Western cultural
memes. And the whole point of Inspire as a magazine is not to draw more
fighters into al Qaeda central but instead to spread al Qaeda everywhere,
to spread al Qaeda ideology and very specific terroristic tactics all over
the world by radicalizing individual people essentially by remote control
wherever they are -- don`t travel, carry out your terrorist attack at home.
The point of "Inspire" is to literally inspire al Qaeda-style attacks
in the West, among English-speaking militants that are separate from any
direct al Qaeda instruction or in-person training at some training camp in
Afghanistan or something.
Less than a year ago, "Inspire" published a hit list for top priority
Western targets. They titled the list, "a bullet a day keeps the infidel
away." That`s kind of the tone of the al Qaeda magazine. Their whole list
is all Western targets and Western countries, people who have committed
some perceived insults to Islam.
The list includes author Salman Rushdie who has been under death
threats for decades now. Also, the Koran burning crazy pastor guy in
Florida was there. But mostly, it`s people involved in drawing and
publishing cartoons that depicted the Prophet Mohammed. You remember that
scandal that started in some Scandinavian papers, Danish and Swedish
cartoonists who created those, editors who have published them, other
cartoonists and editors who have republished them, they`re all on the list.
One of the people on the al Qaeda hit list that was published in
inspire magazine last spring is the editor of "Charlie Hebdo", who was one
of the 12 people killed today in the assault on their offices in Paris.
And we`ll know more, if and when French authorities capture the suspects in
Again, the breaking news reporting right at the top of this hour from
Pete Williams is that the younger suspect in this case, the 18-year-old,
may have turned himself into French authorities but French authorities have
now released a wanted poster with photographs and names of what were
considered to be the two older suspects in this attack, the two suspects
who appear perhaps to be brothers.
So, we`ll know more if and when they`re found. But from what we know
now, what happened today in Paris seems like it is the latest and bloodiest
iteration of what seems to have become the modern form, our current form of
al Qaeda-style low-tech or even no-tech Western terror attacks. It`s not
complicated stuff, but it`s happening a lot.
In France in 2012, a 24-year-old French Muslim claiming allegiance to
al Qaeda, he basically terrorized that country and killed seven people over
three attacks that spanned more than a week. Think about that, more than a
week the guy was on the loose.
On March 11th that year, he shot and killed an off-duty soldier on the
street. Four days later on March 15th, he shot and killed two French
paratroopers and injured a third. Four days after that, on March 19th, he
rode the same motor scooter he rode in the previous attacks and took the
same gun and he attacked a French school. He killed four people including
It was all the same guy on the same motor bike with the same gun. He
was filming all the assaults on a GoPro style camera. When he started to
upload the tapes of his attacks, bragging about what he had done, French
authorities intervened to stop any media outlets from showing that tape.
Eventually, that guy was cornered at an apartment in Toulouse, and he died
in a dramatic and violent gunfight with police.
That all happened in March 2012 in France -- one guy with a motor
scooter and a gun.
The following year, May 2013, it was two attackers in Britain, two
attackers working together who committed the bloody murder of a British
soldier -- a man apparently chosen at random on the street in London. The
two attackers were both Muslim converts. They said they were avenging the
killing of Muslims by British armed forces. That was May 2013.
Almost exactly one year later, in May 2014, a young French Muslim who
had fought in Syria came back to Europe and attacked the Jewish museum in
Brussels. He killed three people at the scene and one person he injured
but that person died later. That attacker at the French -- excuse me, at
the Jewish museum in Brussels, that attacker was initially able to get
away. He eluded capture for about a week before police finally tracked him
down in Marseilles. That was May of last year.
And this style of very low-tech, very low-tech, very low-level planned
homegrown attack, hitting local targets and the West, it hasn`t just been
in Europe. In Australia, in September, there are these huge
counterterrorism raids conducted in multiple cities, and immediately
thereafter, on September 23rd, an 18-year-old who had flown the Islamic
State flag, who had had his passport revoked by police, he was shot and
killed by police after he stabbed two police officers in Melbourne,
Less than a month after that, in Quebec, in Canada, a man used his car
to deliberately run over two Canadian soldiers. He killed one and wounded
another. Police shot that attacker and killed him at the scene.
Just two days later, a different radicalized young Canadian who
stormed the parliament, terrorizing the capital city of Ottawa and killing
one Canadian soldier. Those were unconnected attacks, two days apart.
Back in Australia again, it was December 15th, a radicalized
Australian well known to police and security services, he took 18 people
hostage at a Sydney cafe and put up the flag of the Islamic state in the
window. He killed two of the hostages. He wounded four others before he
himself was killed by police. Police were only able to end that siege
after a 16-hour incredibly dramatic standoff.
And now this today in Paris -- and in some ways it fits the pattern of
these previous low planning, low-tech, low-skill assaults. In some ways it
fits that pattern, but in some ways it doesn`t.
In Paris this morning, it was apparently two, possibly three
attackers, they appear to have been dressed identically, wearing relatively
modern and efficient combat-style gear. They were apparently comfortable
and relatively competent handling the high-powered weapons with which they
were armed. They seem to have a relatively well-coordinated attack plan,
which included not just getting there just in time for the weekly editorial
meeting of the magazine they were attacking, but it also included them
getting away after their attack, and eluding authorities all day long and
It`s a metastasization of terrorism for al Qaeda to have tried to
devolve itself, so it no longer needs to command or control or directly
train anyone in order to spread its lethality across the globe. Instead of
highly trained foreign operatives being coordinated from abroad to
infiltrate a foreign target and attack in some highly coordinated fashion,
al Qaeda 2.0 essentially stop doing that.
There hasn`t been another 9/11 style attack. They`ve essentially
traded away the possibility of a big scale incredibly complex plot like a
9/11 for what they`ve been doing since and especially recently, these more
lone wolf style, low-tech easy operations. They`re basically murder plots.
That would be hard to predict and hard to defend against.
But they couldn`t be as lethal as anything that could be planned on a
9/11 scale, all right, where you need much better coordination, much more
lead time and many more attackers.
Does what happened in Paris today indicate that we`ve moved on to
basically a third iteration of the al Qaeda threat? One that is
unpredictable and hard to see coming because it is homegrown, it`s not
foreign fighters being directed by some central terrorist HQ somewhere far
away. But instead of just being a lone wolf killing one or two people or
whoever he can get his hands on, it`s now a threat posed by small cells,
groups of militants working together, apparently working together well, who
are able to pull off not a massive attack on the scale of something again
like 9/11 or the London subway attacks, but they are able to pull off a
coordinated attack on even a protected target?
And, as they did today in Paris, they were able to get a large death
toll, a dozen people killed today, and then they escaped thereafter.
We saw al Qaeda devolve into an organization that would attack more
frequently in the West but less lethally. Does today show that this style
of terrorism is evolving to now be both frequent and increasingly lethal?
And if so, what`s the plan to stop it?
We`ll be right back.
MADDOW: The breaking news at this hour on the manhunt for the
suspects who carried out today`s massacre in Paris is that French
authorities now say the youngest suspect, an 18-year-old man, has
surrendered to French authorities.
French authorities have also just in the last few minutes released
this wanted poster for the other two suspects.
Joining us now from Paris is NBC News chief global correspondent Bill
Bill, thanks for being with us, especially at this late hour.
BILL NEELY, NBC NEWS CHIEF GLOBAL CORRESPONDENT: You`re welcome,
Yes, the French police say fairly certain of who they`re looking for.
They`ve issued, as you say, photographs of two men that they describe as
armed and extremely dangerous. As you said earlier, they are two brothers,
the Kouachi brothers, Cherif and Said -- Cherif who was convicted of
terrorist offenses ten years ago and given 18 months in jail for trying to
gather together men to fight American troops in Iraq and his brother Said,
who we believe may have returned from Syria in August of last year, one of
roughly 300 French nationals who French counterterrorism officials say have
traveled to Syria and Iraq to join ISIS.
So, French officials pretty certain that they are looking for these
two brothers, but as with every terrorist incident of this kind, and I
covered London in 2005 and the Madrid train bombings which killed nearly
200 people. And just after an event like this, you tend to get a great
deal of false leads and misinformation from officials and so it was today.
So, American counterintelligence officials briefed NBC News that two
of the suspects had been arrested and one had been killed. They are now
saying that they`re not certain about that. And they`re not certain about
the whole status of the three suspects. Obviously, French police did not
confirm what U.S. counterterrorism officials were saying.
So, amid all the shows of defiance on the streets here, the anger, the
passion, there is also confusion, not least from officials. But it does
now seem that French officials know who these two main gunmen who we saw in
those videos are and the manhunt is very much on.
MADDOW: Bill, in terms of the French authorities and their
orientation towards these suspects, the fact that they`ve put out this
wanted poster again calling them armed and dangerous, saying that they`re
at large implies that it`s wide open in terms of a manhunt. Do we have any
reporting or any indication where they`re looking for, these men, when they
fear they may be part of an ongoing plot that is sort of a part two, do we
have any indication of that?
NEELY: Well, there was a counterterrorism operation in the city of
Reims, in the Champagne region, about 90 miles northeast of Paris. That is
roughly the route that the men took in their get-away car, heading out of
Paris, northeast towards the suburbs. But again, there is no confirmation
that that anti-terrorist operation which involved commandos and a police
helicopter was, in fact, linked to the two brothers or to the 18-year-old
who has given himself into police.
What we do know is that police across France and troops have been on
alert. Paris is ringed, apparently with police and troops and the manhunt
MADDOW: Bill Neely, NBC News chief global correspondent -- Bill,
thank you so much. Appreciate having you here.
All right. We`ve got much more ahead on this story tonight and
others. Please stay with us.
MADDOW: This is the Web site for the magazine "Charlie Hebdo"
tonight. CharlieHebdo.fr, which is France, right? If you want to look for
The place is all black except for the words "Je Suis Charlie". Or I
There`s nothing left to click on at the Web site anymore, except for
that one link at the bottom that you can see as PDF link. If you go to
that PDF it provides signs on that slogan. It`s there in seven different
languages. It`s there in Farsi, and in German and in Spanish and in
Catalan and in Czech, and in Arabic, and in Russian.
That slogan, "I am Charlie," which you can download in sign form from
the "Charlie Hebdo" Web site tonight, that slogan is now all over the
world. This was the scene in Paris tonight where thousands stood in Paris`
republic square with signs saying, "I am Charlie" or "We are Charlie."
The signs under the famous Republic Square monument in colorful all
caps spelling out "Not afraid". "Not afraid" was the general theme
throughout France and much of the world today. Thousands of people holding
rallies in solidarity with the victims of the attack.
In London`s Trafalgar Square, they sang France`s national anthem. In
Brussels, they held up pens in solidarity with the victims of this
morning`s attack. In Geneva, in Switzerland, they lit candles at a
makeshift in honor of the victims.
In Germany, they gathered near the French embassy in Berlin, holding
up old issues of "Charlie Hebdo," the magazine. In Spain, they gathered
around the French embassy and at the French consulate they held up signs
saying "Je Suis Charlie" and "Solidarity with Charlie". Excuse me.
In New York City, they gathered in Union Square holding up the same
signs, as everybody did in Europe. Everybody knows that little bit of
French. In Rio de Janeiro in Brazil, they held up signs both in French and
in Portuguese. In Montreal, the mayor lowered the flag to half mast, as he
led a vigil outside city hall.
The tragedy this morning in Paris has struck a nerve all over the
world tonight. There`s really no translation required.
Joining us is Fawaz Gerges. Fawaz is a professor of Middle Eastern
studies and international relations at LSE, London School of Economics.
Professor Gerges, thank you very much for being with us tonight in the
middle of the night. I really appreciate it.
FAWAZ GERGES, LONDON SCHOOL OF ECONOMICS: Pleasure.
MADDOW: What can you explain to us about why France has become such a
target for terrorist attacks? I was struck today looking at some of the
terrible ISIS propaganda how frequently France specifically is singled out
by these international terrorist groups as being such an enemy for them.
GERGES: You know, Rachel, for militants of al Qaeda variety, whether
you`re talking about ISIS or you`re talking about al Qaeda in the Arabian
Peninsula, in Yemen, or whether the al Qaeda, the parent organization,
France today is public enemy number one. France today is a much more
immediate enemy than the United States of America.
This might come to you and your viewers really as surprising. Why?
For two reasons. French is -- France is deeply now engaged all-out war
against militants in West Africa and Mali, in central Africa, in North
Africa, in Iraq and Syria.
France really has taken on basically a mission as big as the United
States. This is the first point.
The second point I think a much more critical point than the military
engagement, the cultural component. The cultural component is that in the
eyes of militants of al Qaeda variety, in particular the al Qaeda branch in
Yemen and ISIS, France is waging all-out war against the Islamic identity,
cultural war, in terms of hijab, in terms of secularism, in terms of
allowing its assertive media to basically insult the prophet to the
cartoonists and what-have-you.
And that`s why both ISIS and al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula have
called on their followers to basically carry out attacks, individual
attacks and networks attacks. And the irony here is that the choice of
"Charlie", the newspaper, is a very symbolic choice. This is "Charlie"
basically stands for France.
Charlie basically is the symbol of France, both the military and the
cultural and as one of the basically attackers, one of the conspirators,
reportedly said, "We have exacted vengeance, we have basically done good
for the prophet against France itself."
And this tells you about basically the symbolism, the cultural
component behind today`s attacks.
MADDOW: Fawaz, there was a report tonight that was echoed on our air
a couple of minutes ago. It was in "USA Today" that the brothers were born
in Paris of Algerian descent, that both brothers -- we`ve heard reports
that one brother perhaps both brothers have been in Syria and have recently
traveled back as recently as this past summer from fighting in Syria.
Is there any way to know to what extent the conflict in Syria, this
now long fight in western Iraq and Syria is essentially being used as a
training ground to disperse fighters back to the West instead of keeping
them there in that fight locally?
GERGES: Rachel, simply, we don`t have information, neither the
Americans nor the French nor the British really have adequate information.
Basically the formations, the complexity, the strategies and what-have-you,
because if you really take a deeper look at ISIS, Rachel, ISIS differ
substantively from al Qaeda. The major target of ISIS is not the West, is
not the far enemy. The major target of ISIS is the near enemy, local
The reason why now you`re seeing this particular sense of
confrontation because the United States, this international coalition led
by the United States, has taken on ISIS and that`s why the YouTubes, that`s
why the statements, that`s why the incitement for ISIS followers to attack
But the reality is you have about between 2,000 and 500 and 3,000
Western fighters, including 150 Americans. And Western states, Western
countries, the intelligence services are very much concerned about these
particular fighters if and when they return to their own countries. As you
said earlier, yourself, quite a few Frenchmen have returned and some of
them have carried out attacks.
But the reality is, I mean, in particular the two brothers. We know
that Said might have fought in Syria, Cherif, the story is extremely
ambiguous, but he`s part of what we call the Iraqi generation, after the
American invasion. This -- the American invasion occupation of Iraq really
radicalized and militarized a large number of young Muslim men in the heart
of the European continent. Cherif, this particular Cherif basically became
interested in the Iraq campaign in 2005.
MADDOW: Professor Gerges, thank you so much for your time,
particularly given the time difference tonight. I really appreciate you
being with us.
MADDOW: Thank you.
Again, the reports that we have, the information that we`ve got about
whether or not one or both of these brothers was in Syria and returned from
Syria, "USA Today" is reporting that both brothers returned from Syria this
summer. We`ve heard from Bill Neely earlier this hour that there are some
reports about one of the brothers, about Said, but not Cherif, those are
unconfirmed reports at this point.
Obviously, it`s a matter of intense interest because this attack in
Paris, however it was inspired, there will be intense international
interest in finding out whether there was an operational relationship with
an international terror group like ISIS or like al Qaeda and what these
guys did today. It matters not much in the moment whether or not you were
homegrown or whether you were sent by somebody else, but matters a lot in
terms of how these groups are dismantled and attacked by the security
forces in the countries that want to see the end of it.
We`ll be right back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SUBTITLE: Among those killed in Paris today were four cartoonists.
Bernard Verlhac was one of the four. He signed his work as Tignous.
Tignous did this drawing for the group Clowns sans frontieres.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MADDOW: Obviously, the main news on the radar right now is the mass
shooting terrorist attack on a Paris magazine this morning and the ongoing
manhunt for two of the gunmen believed to be responsible for the attack
after a third has reportedly turned himself in to police tonight.
But if you are also wanting to keep track of the latest in Washington,
you should know that today was the first business day in the new Congress.
Yesterday, the day they were all sworn in, the White House announced that
President Obama will veto the first legislation, the Republicans say they
will pass -- a bill on the Keystone oil pipeline. That was yesterday.
Today, the White House said the president will also veto the second
piece of legislation the Republicans would pass. It`s a bill to change
rules under Obamacare for how a full-time work week is defined.
Republicans say now they`re in charge in Washington, that bill and
Keystone is the top priorities. White House says both those will be vetoed
as soon as they pass.
So, there`s a lot else going on in the news today. But in Washington,
with the new Congress, it appears to be full speed ahead down a very short
street that ends in a dead end.
Lots more to come tonight, though. We`ll be right back.
MADDOW: There`s more ahead tonight. But just so you know, the latest
French authorities have just published a wanted poster with two of the men
they say were attackers or at least suspected of being the attackers in the
attack on that French magazine this morning in Paris. This wanted poster
has just been put out in the last hour. French police calling these two
brothers armed and dangerous, and they are on the loose. The manhunt
Stay with us.
MADDOW: In the mid-1980s, soon after he started his third term as
governor of Louisiana, Edwin Edwards was put on trial for multiple felony
charges. He beat the rap and served out his term as governor, but then
when he tried to run for a fourth term, he lost.
Four years later, though, he got very, very lucky, because that year
when he decided to make a comeback bid for governor, the Republican Party
ended up choosing as their candidate to run against him a Ku Klux Klan guy,
David Duke, who incidentally finds himself back in the news because of his
ties to the new Republican leadership in Congress.
But back in 1991, David Duke was Edwin Edwards` salvation as he ran
for office again after his multiple felony indictments. And that
governor`s race, Edwin Edwards versus the Klan guy, that gave rise to the
greatest bumper sticker in modern American politics, "Vote for the crook:
it`s important." Meaning, yes, Edwin Edwards is a crook, but he`s not the
Klan. And with messaging like that, Edwin Edwards won.
In France, they have their own version of this story and it dates back
a little further. I`ll give you fair warning here, if you can read French,
here comes a swear, but I promise I won`t say it out loud.
This was a cover of "Charlie Hebdo" magazine in 1971. Vote for the --
French word that means an anatomical swear word that I will not translate.
Vote for the bleep, then below it, it says, you don`t have a choice.
Obviously what this means is all the candidates in the forthcoming
election are bleeps. Whoever you vote for, you are voting for a bleep.
You don`t have a choice not to.
"Daily Beast" reposted that old cover today, and noted that that
sentiment, and that icon, right, basically it still shows up in French
graffiti more than 40 years earlier because it basically perfectly captures
the sentiment of people feeling they`ve got lousy candidates who are all
And whether or not it is your style to like the swear word there, or
the cynical jab of that message, this is a very effective satire.
And the newspaper that published that has had a few different
iterations over the years. That newspaper has been banned in France at one
point. But they`ve always been that edgy and beyond in their satire.
When a French politician Dominique Strauss-Kahn was arrested on sexual
assault charges in New York, this guy was a big, big deal in France. He
was the head of the International Monetary Fund. He`d been a big-time
presidential candidate in France.
"Charlie Hebdo", the magazine, took its usual glee putting Dominique
Strauss-Kahn on its cover in the middle of that scandal, but they put him
on their cover in a shower of condoms.
When the fashion designer John Galliano was arrested after an anti-
Semitic rant and a bar fight, "Charlie Hebdo" put him on their cover as
well, with him using a far right anti-Semitic French politician as a
mannequin for his fashion show, a sort of Germanic (ph) fashion show.
But mostly what "Charlie Hebdo" has earned the most heat for over the
years is its deeply irreverent, purposely inflammatory spoofing of
religions. And they have loved spoofing and attacking everyone. This one
shows a Christian, a Jew and a Muslim, all yelling that the magazine must
But what they have provoked the most ire with and what they have been
physically attacked for in the past, even before today, is depictions of
Islam, including their role in the cartoons of Mohammed crisis in 2005 and
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REPORTER: The rage and protests escalated across the Muslim world.
In Afghanistan, several hundred demonstrators attacked Western bases and
military forces. Three Afghans were killed in one battle. Thousands
marched in Pakistan, Indonesia, Iraq and Iran to protest the caricatures of
the Prophet Mohammed published in Denmark and republished elsewhere in
(END VIDEO CLIP)
MADDOW: One of the outlets that republished it was "Charlie Hebdo."
It printed a caricature of Prophet Mohammed on its cover. It prevented the
Scandinavian cartoons inside. That issue sold 400,000 copies. It drew
criticism from France`s presidents, among others, but "Charlie Hebdo"
Five years later, the newspaper announced an issue to be satirically
guest-edited by Mohammed. After that, its offices were fire bombed in
2011. That`s editor-in-chief Stephane Charbonnier who was killed in
today`s shootings, standing in front of the wreckage after they were
firebombed in 2011.
When the offices of "Charlie Hebdo" were attacked today by three
masked gunmen, when 12 people were killed including eight journalists, two
of the non-journalists who were killed were police officers. Part of
working at "Charlie Hebdo" meant police protection because of that past
attack and because of the threats that they received over and over again.
That magazine did not get any less provocative or any less profane or
biting or edgy. Despite the threats they got, despite the past violence,
despite their editor being put on an international hit list by al Qaeda,
around the time the controversy was happening over the Mohammed cartoons,
you might remember that an American syndicated political cartoonist named
Jeff Danziger published this as his take on the bravery and the threat and
the chilling effect of attacking people, attacking commentators, attacking
cartoonists and editors with violence. It says, "Have you always wanted to
be a cartoonist? This could be your lucky day. The regular cartoonist
didn`t come in today. If you`re interested, why not try your hand? We
thought something on terrorists, something funny, brave, biting and
irreverent. Pay no attention to that man crawling over the table."
Joining us now is Jeff Danziger, "New York Times" syndicated political
Mr. Danziger, thank you for being here tonight.
JEFF DANZIGER, NEW YORK TIMES SYNDICATED POLITICAL CARTOONIST: Nice
to be here.
MADDOW: I have to ask just first of all in your profession and
knowing who you know, what your reaction is to what happened today in
DANZIGER: This morning, I was horrified by it. I know some of those
people. And I followed the other threats that have been made against
"Charlie Hebdo" through the years. And I would have to say that these
people aren`t terrorists, they`re just murderers. If they were really
terrorists, "Charlie Hebdo" would have gone out of business and they have
started to censor themselves. But they obviously weren`t terrorized. They
went ahead and did very brave, very hard-hitting cartoons week after week.
MADDOW: After what happened in 2005 and 2006, and the ongoing, at
least attempted terrorization that has sprung from that controversy, in the
political cartooning world, in the publication -- in the publishing world,
in the part of publishing that has been so attacked and so threatened
because of those cartoons and everything that`s happened since, is there
anything that you guys want more than your getting in terms of support and
protection and in terms of people standing up for your rights?
DANZIGER: I think we get plenty of support. We -- the important
thing in our work is to do something that`s new and original every day.
And when the story, as you can see, goes on with the same low ebb of
violence and today a very high ebb of violence, the difficulty is to point
out something new about what`s going on. I think what you were saying
today is their tendency is that their plan is to try to replace large
terrorist advances like 9/11 here with the constant, on the ground, here
and there -- things that are really pretty difficult to defend against.
MADDOW: Jeff Danziger, "New York Times" syndicated political
cartoonist, who`s done some really edgy and brilliant work on the subject
that was the basis of these attacks today, apparently. Mr. Danziger,
thanks for being here tonight. Appreciate it.
DANZIGER: Thank you.
We`ll be right back. Stay with us.
MADDOW: It`s now approaching the morning hours in France, where a man
is still for two of the three individuals suspected of launching that
terrorist attack early this morning at the offices of the satirical
magazine, "Charlie Hebdo." At this hour, we`re told the youngest of the
three suspects apparently an 18-year-old has surrendered to police, but the
search is still on for the two older suspects in this attack. French
police tonight have put out this wanted poster with the names and images of
those two suspects. They`re calling the two armed and dangerous. And
they`re asking the public for any information about their whereabouts.
Solidarity vigils continue around the world tonight. French President
Francois Hollande has called for a national day of mourning tomorrow. For
the 12 people who were killed in this morning`s attacks.
Our coverage continues now with "THE LAST WORD WITH LAWRENCE
Good evening, Lawrence.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY
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