updated 8/15/2005 10:29:44 AM ET 2005-08-15T14:29:44

Guest: Mary Fulginiti, Dave Holloway, Paul Haber, Charles Lipcon, Tommy Lee, Joe Stein

JOE SCARBOROUGH, HOST:  Tonight‘s top headline, a dramatic new report in the Natalee Holloway case.  A new police document emerges, telling us what may have happened to Natalee.  Did Joran Van Der Sloot place the blame on the other suspects?  And who may take the fall for it?  We‘ve got the very latest. 

And another exclusive on the honeymoon cruise mystery.  A passenger who was actually on that ship brings explosive new details to the investigation that SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY is running. 

Welcome to SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY.  No passport required and only common sense allowed. 

Good evening.  Welcome to the show tonight. 

New information in our exclusive investigation into missing honeymooner George Smith IV.  Now, we‘ve shown you what we‘ve uncovered in Turkey, but tonight, a new passenger from that fateful cruise comes into SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY and is going to bring us new details about what really went on that night. 

But first, did Deepak Kalpoe rape, kill, and bury Natalee Holloway?  Now, according to a police statement attributed to Joran Van Der Sloot, the answer is yes to all three, reportedly.  This, as a new search team lands in Aruba to reenergize the search for Natalee Holloway. 

Now, in just a minute, I‘m going to be talking to Natalee‘s dad, Dave Holloway.  But let‘s begin in Aruba right now with NBC‘s Michelle Kosinski.  She has the latest on the investigation, the search, and also the latest alleged police statement that was published in the largest newspaper in Aruba today.

Michelle, get us up-to-date with the latest. 

MICHELLE KOSINSKI, CORRESPONDENT, NBC NEWS:  Hi, Joe. 

This is the first time we‘ve actually been able to take a look at this supposedly authentic document.  And we‘re not seeing it as it is.  We‘re seeing a picture of it.

It‘s something the local paper has been talking about for a long time.  And they‘ve also been taking a lot of heat for it, from local media outlets and attorneys for the suspects who doubt its authenticity.  But the newspaper stands behind it. 

So today, they published a picture of it, supposedly a statement given to police by Joran Van Der Sloot on June 13th and supposedly signed by four police officers, although, in the newspaper, they didn‘t want those police officers‘ signatures shown. 

So it says, “The suspect, Joran, walked with us, the police, a little bit further on.  And he declared to have suspicions that the suspect, D.  Kalpoe, did bury the girl there somewhere.  So our question to Joran, what he thought had happened between the girl, Natalee Holloway, and the suspect, D. Kalpoe, he declared that he thought that the suspect, D.  Kalpoe, raped and killed the girl.”

Now, according to this allegedly authentic police document that was supposedly leaked to the newspaper, it says that Joran told police that he left Natalee sleeping on the beach and that he thought that Deepak Kalpoe had then come up later and then allegedly done these things to Natalee. 

We know that attorneys for Joran and the suspect called it ridiculous that anything would be leaked out to the media.  And they doubt its authenticity, as we‘ve said.  But so far police haven‘t given us a definitive statement either way as to what they think of this supposedly real document—Joe? 

SCARBOROUGH:  You know, it‘s interesting.  We‘d heard some time before, soon after Natalee disappeared, over a weekend, that there had been a confession.  And we heard that, on Monday or Tuesday, police would be coming out.

And it sounded like this whole case was going to unravel.  And then all of a sudden Joran shut down.  Can you take us through a timeline of how this confession supposedly was given by Joran, and why he may have backed off of it and decided not to talk? 

KOSINSKI:  Well, we know that the family was told by the FBI, according to them, that this confession had happened.  It‘s something that had been talked about on the island. 

We aren‘t able to see any of these police documents.  They call them “declarations,” or statements that suspects give to police.  We only know of the stories of them that leak out. 

We know that there was a story that one of the suspects had said, quote, “something bad had happened to Natalee.”  According to the local newspaper, they have seen another declaration, allegedly by Joran at another date, where he described similar things to what are in this allegedly real document coming from police. 

So it‘s really tough to know the timeline exactly of when these supposed confessions happened.  And this thing that we read to you just now was originally called a confession.  But when you look at what is supposedly the real thing, it says, “Well, I think that Deepak Kalpoe did this, and I feel that he did that,” but it‘s not exactly a confession, per se. 

SCARBOROUGH:  All right.  NBC‘s Michelle Kosinski, thanks so much. 

And stay with us.  We‘ll be back with you in a minute. 

Now, I want to bring in former federal prosecutor Mary Fulginiti.

Mary, I understand Michelle Kosinski‘s in a difficult position.  She‘s a reporter.  She‘s got this information.  I wish she could be paid today by the number of times that she said “allegedly,” because, again, a lot of questions about this document.

But at the same time, we have been hearing—I believe it was a CNN report about a month-and-a-half ago, that Joran had cracked, that he had made a confession, talked about what happened that night.  And we heard of an upcoming press conference on Monday or Tuesday. 

Then we heard, again through our sources in Aruba, that the Kalpoe brothers were enraged when they learned of this confession.  And that is when the father came in and tried to shut everybody down.  Perhaps it was the time that he said, “No body, no crime.” 

Talk about what happens.  When you‘ve got three people involved here, is this very common, where one of them will try to finger the other one, and then the other will come back and threaten them, and say, “You know what?  If you keep talking, we‘re going to turn this thing around and blame you”? 

MARY FULGINITI, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR:  No, absolutely, Joe.  In fact, whenever anyone—there are multiple suspects or defendants in a criminal case, many times you‘ll see them pointing the finger at each other in order to try to confuse the issue and/or raise reasonable doubt. 

So it isn‘t unusual at all, I think, that they‘re finger-pointing.  I think what‘s interesting here, though, is the time line, in particular, because this is now a third version of the story, I guess, that Joran has told the police. 

Initially, they all told the police that he and the other two left her off at the Holiday Inn.  Then Joran now obviously changed the story and said he thought this occurred and that Deepak actually raped her.  And then the boys seem to come back and say, “Well, no, no, no, we left him off at the beach.” 

And then Joran ultimately admitted to family members and/or his attorney that he did actually leave her at the beach and he was the last to see her there. 

This document, Joe, is far from a confession.  A confession is when you admit to criminal culpability or liability.  What he‘s doing here is saying, “I didn‘t do it, but I think Deepak did it.” 

So the fact that the prosecution continued to argue to keep him detained, continued to argue that they thought that he was accountable, or at least there was some evidence that he was involved in criminal activity, I think, to me, renders a lot of—a lack of credibility to that statement, because the court obviously was manned with that statement, too, and decided to keep him in jail. 

SCARBOROUGH:  So help me out here then.  Does it make sense to you that, again, they‘re pointing fingers at each other?  The Kalpoe brothers possibly threatening, saying, “If you keep going down this line, blaming Deepak, we‘re going to both turn on you.  You‘d better keep your mouth shut.”

The father comes in.  And, again, then he tells all of them, “Hey, just calm down.  No body, no crime, and just keep your mouth shut.  And if you keep your mouth shut, nothing bad‘s going to happen to you,” which, of course, kind of looks like what‘s going on right now, doesn‘t it, Mary? 

FULGINITI:  Yes, those are all possible scenarios.  And that‘s absolutely right.  I mean, that‘s one scenario. 

I mean, we‘re just getting, unfortunately, a multitude of pieces to this puzzle.  And some of it‘s hearsay.  Some of it‘s uncorroborated.  This we don‘t even know if the document is authentic. 

But the mere fact that this statement was allegedly given back in June, June 13th, which is very early on in this investigation, and we haven‘t heard about it till now, at least, in my eyes, the prosecution and the court are not giving it a lot of credibility, because Joran is still behind bars.

So they still believe that he has some level of culpability, albeit maybe a small level, because the burden is de minimus in Aruba, but a small level of culpability in this crime.  And his statement clearly isn‘t doing that.  His statement is saying, “I didn‘t do it.  I think Deepak did it.” 

SCARBOROUGH:  All right, Mary, stay with us.  We‘ll be right back with you. 

Now, let‘s go to Meridian, Mississippi, and talk to Natalee‘s dad, Dave Holloway. 

Dave, the family has been told, I understand, by the FBI, we‘re told, a long time ago, that Joran had actually pointed fingers at Deepak earlier and then he backed off of it.  What do you make of this latest development in the case? 

DAVE HOLLOWAY, NATALEE HOLLOWAY‘S FATHER:  Well, actually, I believe it was a defense slipping up or maybe putting that information out, maybe from one of the other lawyers.  I don‘t know how the document was released, but I understand it came through one of the defense attorneys. 

And maybe that was something to, you know, stir something up, I don‘t know.  I‘m just trying to think outside the box.  Pointing the finger at Deepak, you wonder the timeline really confuses me, in the fact that they left around 1:00 to 1:15 and then they were seen in the vehicle around 2:30 a.m.  And then they were all back at home at 3:00. 

And, you know, one wonders if maybe one of them came back after their chitchat over the Internet.  Who knows? 

SCARBOROUGH:  What‘s your intuition as a father?  Obviously, you‘ve been following this case more closely than just about anybody else.  Do you think—is your suspicion focused on Joran or is it focused on the Kalpoe brothers? 

HOLLOWAY:  You know, I really don‘t know, Joe.  There‘s a lot of information I‘m not aware of, as far as the depositions or the declarations, which they call them.  You know, I don‘t have access to that information. 

But what little pieces I can put together, all three of them possibly know what happened.  And then there may be others involved.  You know, I just got to think that these three kids couldn‘t have done it by themselves. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Now, when you say these three kids couldn‘t have done it by themselves, that makes a lot of sense to me.  And a lot of people that come up to me are talking about this case.  They all seem to have come to that conclusion. 

Do you suspect that possibly it was Joran‘s father that helped mastermind possibly getting rid of Natalee so nobody would find her? 

HOLLOWAY:  Well, I couldn‘t really say that and point the finger at him.  But you‘ve got to have everything on your mind as far as—he‘s got to know, as the father of his son, what happened.  I know that, if my son was involved in something like this, I‘d get to the bottom of it.  And I would imagine that he has, too. 

Maybe there‘s other kids or whatever involved.  I don‘t know.  But it sure does lead to it. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Dave, are you concerned with the September 4th deadline coming up, that Joran Van Der Sloot may walk free, because his father has obviously told him to keep his mouth shut and not to cooperate?  And if he does that long enough, if he does that for another two, three weeks, he walks and then no one‘s ever held accountable for whatever happened to Natalee. 

HOLLOWAY:  Well, actually, the September the 4th date is whether or not he‘ll be detained for the next 30 days.  Even though, if he does walk, he could still be charged later for whatever crimes or whatever they want to charge him with.  So that just allows him to walk free until the prosecution determines whether or not he‘ll be charged. 

Now that‘s a concern of mine, because, right now, he has only one visit per week from his father, since he turned 18.  And, you know, we‘ve got a few more weeks of interrogation until the judge determines whether or not they‘ll continue holding him. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Are you distressed at this point in the investigation that—of course, we had the search of the landfill, we had the search of the swamp, the draining of the swamp, we‘ve had new witnesses come forward, but one of those witnesses has vanished himself. 

Are you distressed at the pace of this investigation and believe that maybe you all have come up on some dead-ends that you can‘t get out of? 

HOLLOWAY:  Well, I went to Aruba on three different occasions for a total of 50 days, Joe.  And the last trip I went, you know, we were in the landfill searching.  And that was my last hope of the search, of completing the island. 

Unless something new comes up or a tip comes in, you know, I just don‘t know where else to look.  And that was my role on the island, was the search effort, obviously. 

But, as the investigation continues, you know, we‘ve got to rely on the police to crack this case.  It‘s all up to them, or a person coming up with a tip.  And we have a web site set-up, investigation_4_natalee@yahoo.com

And if anyone has any investigative information that may crack this case, they can send it to us at that web site.  Also, the reward out there, $250,000 for the whereabouts of her body or the whereabouts of where she is, if she‘s alive, they can collect that reward. 

And then, if someone‘s holding her for ransom, it‘s a $1 million reward for her safe return.  So I‘m hoping that, you know, someone will crack it. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Dave, final question, very quickly, how‘s your faith holding you?  Is it sustaining you through this crisis? 

HOLLOWAY:  Oh, yes, absolutely.  You know, I left Meridian, Mississippi, you know, with a prayer with my pastor.  And we reaffirmed that one other time, you know, just the strength of God will get us through this.  And so far, he‘s been right there with us, Joe. 

The only thing I really concern is my children.  You know, they‘re—it‘s just like last night, my daughter pointed the finger at the TV, and, “Sissy, sissy.”  And my 7-year-old, you know, wanted to know if she‘s going to be home for Christmas.  You know, this is tough. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Oh, sounds so tough, sounds so tough.  Well, Dave Holloway, know that our thoughts and prayers remain with you and your family.  Thanks for being with us tonight.  We greatly appreciate it. 

HOLLOWAY:  Thank you.

SCARBOROUGH:  We‘ll be right back with more in Aruba and our SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY exclusive investigation of murder on the Mediterranean.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCARBOROUGH:  Joran Van Der Sloot was not interrogated today, as he tries to wait it out until the looming court date on September 4th when he‘ll either be charged or set free.  But a lot of people tonight are asking, what really happened the night Natalee vanished? 

Now let‘s go back to Aruba and NBC‘s Michelle Kosinski, who‘s putting the pieces together for us.  Michelle, what do you got? 

KOSINSKI:  Joe, as you know, there have been so many stories that have come out about what exactly happened when, when this case all started, not to mention all of the rumors that seem to circulate freely around this island surrounding this case.  Even tough for us to keep up sometimes with who said what. 

So we put together this time line, based on different sources, about what they say happened the night Natalee disappeared. 

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KOSINSKI:  Carlos and Charlie‘s, this is where it all started around 1:30 in the morning, where Natalee celebrated the last night of her graduation trip with her friends and the last place they ever saw her.  Out here getting into a car with the Kalpoe brothers and Joran Van Der Sloot and yelling, “Yay, Aruba,” as they drove off. 

But Natalee‘s mother says those friends told her kids were just pouring out of the bar and jumping into the cabs that lined this street and that Natalee thought she was getting into a cab headed back to her hotel.  They also said Joran had told this group that he was also staying at the Holiday Inn. 

Getting into that car is the last moment anyone can really say where Natalee was.  One story takes us directly to the Holiday Inn.  Natalee‘s family‘s attorney says at least one of the boys told police they took her here, that she got out of the car, fell and hit her head, that Joran got out and asked her if she needed help, but that she said she was fine. 

They also reportedly told police they saw a security guard help her inside.  Problem is, security cameras show absolutely none of this. 

Next story.  Attorneys say at one point the boys told police they went driving around with Natalee that night to the lighthouse.  They said she wanted to see it. 

Then the Kalpoes tell investigators they dropped Joran and Natalee off on this beach known as the Fisherman‘s Hut next to the Marriott and drive home, arriving around 3:00 a.m. 

Joran tells police Natalee wants to stay here so he walks home.  But attorneys tell us people who were in this area that night never saw Natalee or the boys. 

At around this same time, 3:00 a.m., a witness cutting through this field right across the street from the beach says he sees all three suspects sitting in the Kalpoes‘ car, and they hid their faces when they were spotted.  If this was true, this would blow the alibi that the Kalpoes were home and Joran was walking. 

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KOSINSKI:  The statement of that witness was taken very seriously by investigators, but now he has disappeared.  He was supposed to appear before the court to give an official version of his story before a judge the other day, but he was a no-show—Joe? 

SCARBOROUGH:  Michelle, thanks so much.  Great report.  We really appreciate it. 

Now, our investigation into the disappearance of George Smith IV.  We continue tonight.  We‘ve told you about the investigation in Turkey.  In addition to the blood on the balcony, Turkish investigators say they found blood everywhere, blood on the missing groom‘s bed, on a towel, and also on a shelf in the cabin. 

We also discovered, through our Turkish investigation, that Turkish officials questioned three or four crew members about George Smith‘s disappearance.  That‘s something we haven‘t heard before.  And also, these cruise members testified that they were the ones who brought George Smith to his cabin at 3:30 a.m. 

Now tonight, another SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY exclusive.  His name is Paul Haber, and he was a passenger on that same cruise.  And he‘s agreed to join us by phone tonight. 

Paul, thanks so much for being with us tonight.  You were on the cruise.  What can you tell us what you saw? 

PAUL HABER, PASSENGER ON CRUISE:  Well, I can tell you, Joe, that we did not see the couple, but we did see some people being interviewed.  And we did hear some talk—you know, of course, lots of rumors that other people had heard on the ship. 

And my wife actually had heard some things going on, people having discussions about being interviewed and about not being able to get off the ship. 

SCARBOROUGH:  The investigations that were going on, on the ship, was it the day he disappeared? 

HABER:  Yes.  The day we were in Kusadasi, Turkey, we went out off the ship in the morning on a tour.  And we returned to the ship around midday.  And my wife and daughter had returned to the ship before my son and I.  We stayed in town a little longer and then rejoined my wife and daughter a little later. 

And while my wife and daughter were having lunch on the ship, they had heard some people being paged over the P.A. system.  And though my wife—she doesn‘t recall the names of the people being paged, she does recall that these people were asked to come down, either to the guest relations desk or to the Centrum area of the ship. 

And at that point, after these people were being paged, my wife then noticed that two young people, one was a male, the other was a female, who were seated at the next table, they got up and left as if they were responding to the page. 

And as they were leaving their table, there was an older woman, maybe one of these person‘s parents, who had called out to them and went with them. 

And then, shortly after that—this was probably maybe between 1:00 and 2:00 in the afternoon—my son and I rejoined my wife and daughter on the ship.  We went down to the Centrum area of the ship.  The Centrum area is a large, open, public area.  It‘s kind of like the ship‘s main lobby. 

And at that point, when we went down to the Centrum area, my wife recognized that the two young people who had been eating lunch, as well as the older woman, they were all sitting there in the Centrum talking to what appeared to be a Turkish policeman.  I mean, I saw a man, at least one policeman who was in uniform. 

And then, as we walked through the Centrum—we were actually on our way off the ship to go back into the town.  As we walked through the Centrum, we then overheard some discussion about there having been some kind of problem in the casino the night before.  Of course, at this point, we were totally unaware of the missing passenger at this point and didn‘t get any details.

SCARBOROUGH:  All right.  Hey, Paul, stay with us.  Because when we come back, I want to talk about the problem in the casino the night before. 

And also, of course, you may be able to help us clear up something about a story that came out in the very beginning that said the bride was supposedly the next morning in the gym.  Well, that may not be the case.  We‘re going to go deeper into this investigation.

Plus, we‘re going to talk to a man who says that he wants to warn you and your family that cruise ships are a haven for crimes, crimes that rarely get solved. 

Plus later, rock star Tommy Lee talks about his new reality TV show and trying out for the girls‘ swim team.  That‘s just a hint of how this interview goes.  It‘s ugly, friends.  You want to stick around. 

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCARBOROUGH:  Up next, an exclusive interview with a passenger on the cruise with George Smith IV and his wife the night he disappeared.  He‘s going to shed new light on what really happened that next morning. 

But first, here‘s the latest news you and your family need to know. 

COLETTE CASSIDY, MSNBC ANCHOR:  Good evening, everyone.  I‘m Colette Cassidy.  Here‘s what‘s happening.

The Department of Homeland Security is lowering its terror alert level for the nation‘s trains, subways, and buses.  The color-coded alert was raised to orange, or high, after the transit bombings in London July 7th.  The level returns to yellow, or elevated, after this evening‘s rush-hour local time. 

The New York Fire Department has released 15 hours of chilling radio transmissions and more than 500 vivid oral histories by firefighters recounting the destruction of the World Trade Center towers on 9/11.  The documents were released following a freedom of information lawsuit by the “New York Times.”

After two days of delays, NASA‘s Mars Orbiter blasted off from Cape Canaveral on its seven-month journey to the red planet.  The orbiter is due to circle Mars for four years collecting information that could help with human exploration of the planet. 

And FOX TV announced an internal investigation found no evidence that “American Idol” judge Paula Abdul had an affair with former contestant Corey Clark or helped him on the show, as he claimed.  FOX says Abdul will remain a judge on the popular TV show. 

Those are your headlines.  I‘m Colette Cassidy.  Now back to

SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY.

SCARBOROUGH:  Rocker Tommy Lee has lived life in the fast lane for the past two decades.  Now he‘s going to college, and cameras are following him.  In just minutes, he‘s going to be here to talk about his new show, and his ex-wife Pamela Anderson, and only God knows what else. 

Also, an inside look at the Hollywood Scientology community.  A reporter went inside, and is coming back to SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY to tell us all about it. 

Welcome back to SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY.  You don‘t want to miss that story. 

But first, let‘s bring back passenger Paul Haber.  He‘s here to tell us about the gym the morning George Smith disappeared.  You say, “Hey, why is a gym important?”  It‘s because, for the first several weeks after George‘s disappearance, we heard time and time again that the wife wasn‘t there the next morning, didn‘t notice his disappearance because she‘d left early to go work out in the gym. 

Well, we started hearing stories about how she was passed out and possibly drugged two stories up from where her husband had gone missing.  And now we bring in Paul Haber who—Paul, I understand you were in the gym for a good while that morning that George Smith IV disappeared.  And tell me, did you ever see his wife up there? 

HABER:  Well, I was in the ship‘s gym early in the morning, pretty much when we arrived in the port the morning of July 5th into Kusadasi.  And, you know, I guess I‘m one of those few people willing to get up early in the morning for a workout during a cruise.

But there are, as I said, few people that are in the gym at that time of day.  The gym opens around 6:00 in the morning.  And I recall being there shortly thereafter.  And I don‘t recall seeing Mrs. Smith in the gym during the time that I was there. 

Like I said, there were very few people working out at the time.  And I think, after having seen her photo and photos of her, I think I would have recalled seeing her there. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Yes, I certainly think you would have, also, Paul. 

Paul, stand by.  I want to go to Mary Fulginiti now. 

Mary, help clear this up for me.  It just doesn‘t make sense.  Why would the cruise lines release a statement saying she was up in the gym early that morning, casting suspicion on her?  And then we find out three, four, five weeks later that she may have been drugged and was possibly passed out, and certainly was in no condition to be up in the gym which, of course, if that had just been said early on, a lot of people wouldn‘t have been so suspicious of her activities that night and the following morning. 

FULGINITI:  Yes, you know, Joe, that is clearly the problem with leaks and rumors in investigations, which inevitably occur, especially in high-profile investigations. 

Everyone‘s clamoring to get any piece of information or evidence.  And, unfortunately, sometimes the sources and the information that we receive is not completely accurate.  So I think that‘s just fallen into that sort of pit hole. 

But I am sort of curious as to really what did occur with her, because I don‘t think we‘ve gotten a very clear picture of where she was.  There seems to be a lot of inconsistencies.  The cruise members seem to, at least from some news reports, seems to have suggested that she was in the room before they brought him back that evening. 

Then we‘ve heard other accounts that she was passed out on, you know, another story upstairs and then other accounts that the next morning that she was in the gym.  So I‘m certain, though, she‘s probably been debriefed thoroughly by the prosecutors at this point and they know at least what her story is, with regard to her whereabouts. 

SCARBOROUGH:  All right, Mary, thank you.  Let‘s bring in Charles Lipcon right now.  He‘s a maritime attorney. 

Charles—and by the way, we just have to clarify this.  The cruise line released a statement.  Then we read in the Associated Press a report that she had been in the gym the next morning.  And then we just found out last night—somebody came on and gave us some exclusive information—that investigators have been told that she was taken back to the room before her husband was taken back by crew members. 

Now, Charles, let me bring you in.  That‘s a perfect segue.  Talk about crew members for a second.  This Turkish investigation that we ran came up with the fact that crew members from this ship had brought Mr.  Smith back to his room around 3:30.  You complained that a lot of times crimes go on, on these type of ships. 

Are crew members usually suspects when something goes wrong? 

CHARLES LIPCON, MARITIME ATTORNEY:  Well, they‘re frequently involved.  You know, that story about the gym, that‘s classic disinformation.  And these kinds of situations, all kinds of false stories are given out to throw people off the track. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Why is that? 

LIPCON:  Well, they want to blame the victim.  They make it tougher on the victim.  It makes it harder to figure out what really happened.  I mean, from day one, I had my own theory about this case, which I presented.  And all of the facts that are coming out now fit exactly into that theory. 

Crew members...

SCARBOROUGH:  And you base this theory on all the information that you‘ve had working these cases for such a long time.  Talk about your theory.  What happened that night? 

LIPCON:  Well, my theory is that she and her husband were drugged, maybe by the crew, taken back to the cabin.  She was assaulted.  The husband came to.  He was a witness.  They killed him, and tossed him over the side. 

That‘s what I think happened, based on all the information that I‘ve learned.  And that fits a pattern that I‘ve seen over a good number of cases.  So, yes...

SCARBOROUGH:  Talk about that pattern. 

LIPCON:  Well, the pattern is the crew know that there are no ramifications for sexually assaulting passengers, except maybe they get fired.  That‘s if they‘re caught.  And by using these date-rape drugs, the victims many times don‘t even know what happened. 

So crew members know that—I said before on your show—they know it‘s open season on the high seas.  So it doesn‘t surprise me at all. 

And the other thing that you‘ll find is—I mean, you mentioned earlier that some crew members had been questioned by the authorities—the cruise line will create a lockdown of information, instruct all crew members not to discuss the matter. 

So it will be very hard for anybody to get information out of them.  And if they talk and they bring up something that‘s harmful to the company, they get sent home on a permanent vacation. 

SCARBOROUGH:  I‘ll tell you what, it‘s certainly frightening, Charles, everything that you‘re telling us.  I appreciate you being with us and telling us your take on it.  Charles Lipcon, Paul Haber, Mary Fulginiti, we appreciate it. 

We‘re going to be following this story all next week.  News is breaking fast over the past week-and-a-half.  Our investigation has shed a lot of light on what really went on that night.  We‘re going to keep after it. 

Plus, we‘ve got a lot more to come tonight.  Coming up next, rocker Tommy Lee‘s here to talk about his new reality show, among other thing.  And later, the two hot Hollywood religions, Scientology and Kabala.  Which one is more likely to make you famous, and which one offers free valet parking? 

Well, we talked to somebody who infiltrated both religions, and he‘s here to tell us all the dirty secrets. 

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCARBOROUGH:  Rock star and part-time video star Tommy Lee is hoping to be a new reality TV star.  The Motley Crue drummer and notorious ex of Pamela Anderson has a new show on NBC, “Tommy Lee Goes to College.”  The show premieres next Tuesday at 9:00 p.m. 

I asked Tommy why somebody that looks like me, dresses like me, and thinks like me should ever watch his show.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

TOMMY LEE, “TOMMY LEE GOES TO COLLEGE”:  Because it‘s an awesome show. 

(LAUGHTER)

It is so—and there are so many funny moments, that there‘s like—

I mean, it‘s Middle American, Lincoln, Nebraska.  You‘ve got me, and you‘ve got the entire campus being bum-rushed by myself and a film crew. 

And we go through the whole experience from, you know, getting there the first day, to going to classes, picking out roommates.  I start my own frat, try out for the women‘s swim team. 

(CROSSTALK)

SCARBOROUGH:  You start your own frat? 

LEE:  Yes, sir, the House of Lee. 

SCARBOROUGH:  The House of Lee.  And did you have any pledges? 

LEE:  Absolutely.  We had toga parties.  You name it, we did it.  And I can‘t wait for everyone to see the show.  The show‘s out of control. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Are there any rituals you had to go through to become a member of the House of Lee? 

LEE:  Yes, sir. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Can you say it on national TV? 

LEE:  No, I can‘t.  You‘ll have to watch. 

SCARBOROUGH:  I‘ll have to watch.  Well, I understand you did try out for the swim team.  In fact, we saw a sporty picture of you in Speedos. 

(LAUGHTER)

Talk about that wonderful moment in Nebraska. 

LEE:  That was interesting.  You know, there‘s these cute girls in their bathing suits, and then you‘ve got me.  And I had them for a minute there.  We did a relay race.  And I had them for—at one end of the pool, and you know when you go upside-down, and you flip around, and you kick off the other end?  I miss it had by a few inches, and so I got crushed.  But that‘s OK. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Hate when that happens, beaten by girls. 

LEE:  But it was just fun swimming with cute girls. 

SCARBOROUGH:  You live in a massive mansion.  It was obviously profiled on MTV‘s “Cribs.”  What‘s it like going from a mansion to a small dorm room? 

LEE:  Oh, man, it was small.  And we were in, like, the deluxe model.  It‘s small.  But you know what, though?  I had my—you‘ll see in the episode, I had my interior decorators come over and pimp the joint. 

SCARBOROUGH:  So talk about the armed guard that had to be placed outside of your dorm room.  Was that to protect you from the students, or to protect the students from you? 

(LAUGHTER)

LEE:  To protect me from the girls.

SCARBOROUGH:  Nice. 

LEE:  Nice. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Yes.  How have things changed since you all started?  Obviously, tales of sex, drugs, and rock ‘n‘ roll, and the band.  Your bassist even talked about dying for a short while after heroin use and then being brought back to life. 

Has that changed over the past 20 years?  Have things calmed down generally in rock, or is it about the same as it was in the ‘80s? 

LEE:  Hey, did I tell you that I have a new solo record that just came out two days ago, called “Tommy Land:  The Ride”? 

SCARBOROUGH:  Awesome, man.  Awesome.  You should run for president. 

Change of subject. 

LEE:  I don‘t know.  You know what?  To answer your question, everybody‘s fine.  Everyone‘s having a blast on tour.  I think we‘re actually having more fun now than we ever had. 

So I can‘t really complain.  Like, everything is going really well, you know, for everybody. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Yes, let‘s talk about another thing people love to talk about, that‘s Pamela Anderson.  What‘s the latest there? 

LEE:  Ugh.

SCARBOROUGH:  Ugh, it‘s awful.

LEE:  Do we really have to?  Hey, did I tell you I have a new record that came out two days ago? 

SCARBOROUGH:  Did it really?  You‘re kidding me.

LEE:  Yes, it‘s called “Tommy Land:  The Ride,” yes.

SCARBOROUGH:  OK, they‘re telling me in my ear...

LEE:  Yes.

SCARBOROUGH:  I mean, I don‘t carry this information around with me walking around every day, but they tell me that you were quoted in “People” magazine as saying you still love Pamela. 

LEE:  Of course I do.  We love each other.  We have children together.  Of course we do. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Getting married again?  Are you getting married again? 

LEE:  No. 

SCARBOROUGH:  No, OK. 

LEE:  No, not that I know of. 

(LAUGHTER)

SCARBOROUGH:  OK.  Hey, I heard you have a new solo record out. 

LEE:  No way?  Yes, I actually do. 

SCARBOROUGH:  That‘s what I‘ve been told. 

LEE:  But you know what?  We have to go. 

SCARBOROUGH:  All right.  Great talking to you.  Thanks a lot, Tommy Lee. 

LEE:  All right, guys, peace. 

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SCARBOROUGH:  And “Tommy Lee Goes to College” premiers Tuesday night on NBC.  Check this summer‘s most unlikely college student. 

And coming up next, TomKat, Madonna, John Travolta, Britney Spears, all part of a troubling new trend.  Some of Hollywood‘s biggest names belong to Scientology and Kabala.  I‘m going to be asking a Hollywood local what it‘s like to be recruited by two religions and which has a creepy recruiting video.  This story, and much more, right after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCARBOROUGH:  Kabala and Scientology are the religions of choice these days among Hollywood heavies like Madonna, Britney, Tom Cruise, and John Travolta. 

Well, Columnist Joel Stein tried out each religion in his quest for Hollywood success.  And he wrote about it for the “Los Angeles Times.”  He joins me now, as does MSNBC entertainment editor Dana Kennedy. 

Joel, I understand that scientologists have great weekend brunches and the Kabala centers have hot women.  Other than those two differences, talk about the Scientology center. 

JOEL STEIN, “THE LOS ANGELES TIMES”:  It‘s great.  First of all, I‘m just, as always, honored to be on SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY, even though I‘m following Paulie Shore and Tommy Lee.  What‘s happened to SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY? 

SCARBOROUGH:  Listen, man, SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY‘s inclusive.  It‘s not a geographic location.  As you know, it‘s a state of mind.  So we can go anywhere these guys go. 

STEIN:  I‘m selling.  Sell your house now if you‘re in SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY.  Prices are going down. 

SCARBOROUGH:  You‘ve got the wisdom of Paulie Shore, though.  That‘s why we had you on tonight. 

So talk about, if you could, talk about the Scientology center.  Take us inside there. 

STEIN:  It‘s beautiful, the Celebrity Centre, which is C-E-N-T-R-E, is this old Hollywood hotel, and they‘ve got this great courtyard where people play piano and sing during brunch, and there are fountains and good croissants.  $25 dollars, $20 dollars with a coupon, if you print it off the web, I recommend it. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Nice.  Any mention of aliens while you were in there? 

STEIN:  No.  Well, you know, you can just have the brunch, or you can start to look around and go to the bookstore, which has some pricey books, to be honest.  And then I played with the e-meter, which, I‘m sure, was a great piece of technology in 1950, needs a little updating. 

And then you quickly run into someone who shows you around, and gives you a tour, and shows you what they call a short movie.  I would perhaps call it a long movie.  And you learn a little bit about the religion, which, by the way, I‘ve only good things to say about.  And anything that I say that seems negative is misconstrued.

SCARBOROUGH:  What about the Kabala center?  Less bizarre?  More bizarre? 

STEIN:  I‘m not going to use words like “bizarre.”  I‘m going to say “more average.”  Maybe that‘s a better way to put it.  It‘s a nice little location with a beautiful gift shop.  And they sell, like, Fred Siegel-level kind of cool rock star t-shirts. 

And I saw some candles that were on sale, which I found odd, because I didn‘t—most major religious don‘t go on sale.  They also said it was like 10 percent off all the lessons, if I joined that day, which I thought was a hard sell for religion.  I mean, not compared to the inquisition, but I guess for religious I‘m used to. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Dana, talk about how these faiths—you know, used to have the casting couch in Hollywood.  Now you‘ve got like these casting religions.  Joel talked about pre-starlets lining up at the Kabala centers.  Why are they so hot? 

DANA KENNEDY, MSNBC ENTERTAINMENT EDITOR:  Well, there‘s no place more like high school than Hollywood, Joe, as you know.  And everyone there is incredibly susceptible to pier pressure.  And when Madonna first came out talking about Kabala, within months, everybody was sporting the red string bracelet around their wrist, Demi Moore, Britney Spears, all these people.

I really think it‘s something very trendy.  But Hollywood stars are always searching for their ultimate edge.  I mean, the ‘70s, remember it was really big with people like Valerie Harper, who played Rhoda?  That was a really big cult issue, if you want to call it that. 

STEIN:  Whatever Valerie Harper does, yes.  You want to get on that train as fast as possible. 

They let me go to bathroom at both places, by the way.  I wouldn‘t compare them to it at all. 

SCARBOROUGH:  So, Dana, do you think they‘re going to move on to another trend sometime soon?  Does Tom Cruise and Katie Holmes, and all of the publicity that‘s followed them around, does that help Scientology‘s standing in Hollywood or hurt it? 

KENNEDY:  I bet it hurts it, because, as we‘ve talked about here before, Tom Cruise and Katie Holmes are really punch lines in Hollywood now.  And it‘s not cool.  But Scientology‘s never really been the province of cool people in Hollywood, like Jenna Elfman, John Travolta, not exactly really cool.  Demi Moore, Madonna are considered more cool. 

STEIN:  Doug E. Fresh?

KENNEDY:  Right.

STEIN:  Yes.  I think it seems kind of cool.

SCARBOROUGH:  Joel?

STEIN:  Yes?

SCARBOROUGH:  I want you to talk now, Joel.  Please, speak.  Speak with wisdom that surpasses Paulie Shore. 

STEIN:  I have a new solo album out.  Have I mentioned that yet at all? 

No, I think they both—you can make fun of any religion.  I think they both had things to offer.  Both Kabala and Scientology, from the little I saw, were about tapping into these amazing resources that you have inside that, for some reason, you‘ve been kind of not been able to tap into before. 

You know, I think you can gain like 14 I.Q. points after, like, your first 12 ½-hour audit in Scientology.  They told me in the movie.  That seemed like a good deal, especially with the brunch thrown in. 

SCARBOROUGH:  That‘s pretty—yes, it sounds impressive, Joel.  It sounds like you‘ve gone native. 

Joel Stein, Dana Kennedy, thanks for being with us. 

KENNEDY:  Thank you.

SCARBOROUGH:  We greatly appreciate it. 

Coming up next, one of the biggest stories of the week produces our SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY champion.  Stick around.  We‘ll tell you who that is, coming up next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCARBOROUGH:  As you know, SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY has been leading the investigation in the cruise mystery.  You can help out by e-mailing me with any info you have.  Just e-mail me at joe@MSNBC.com.  We‘ll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SCARBOROUGH:  Choosing this week‘s SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY champion was an easy choice.  He‘s 33-year-old Mike Wagers, the Kentucky cab driver whose tip led police to the motel where fugitives George and Jennifer Hyatte were hiding out. 

Wagers took the couple on a two-hour journey to Columbus, Ohio, before becoming Middle America‘s hero and our SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY champion.

That‘s all the time we have for tonight.  Stick around for Tucker Carlson, next.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

END   

Content and programming copyright 2005 MSNBC.  ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.  Transcription Copyright 2005 Voxant, Inc. ALL RIGHTS  RESERVED. No license is granted to the user of this material other than for research. User may not reproduce or redistribute the material except for user‘s personal or internal use and, in such case, only one copy may be printed, nor shall user use any material for commercial purposes or in any fashion that may infringe upon MSNBC and Voxant, Inc.‘s copyright or other proprietary rights or interests in the material. This is not a legal transcript for purposes of litigation.

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