Guests: Jamie Skeeters, Tom Loesch, Dave Holloway, Jim Nolan, Vito Colucci, Sandy Chasm, Danny Jenkins, Jeffery Forbes, Sr., Corine Edwards, Jim Solomons, Debra Opri, Wendy Murphy, Eddie Jordan, Web Wilson, Annie Wilson
RITA COSBY, HOST: Right now, we‘re following a dramatic manhunt for a suspected cop shooter. Tonight, the fugitive‘s family makes a LIVE AND DIRECT plea to the fugitive, Turn yourself in.
And police may have uncovered a bombshell clue in the death of Virginia college student Taylor Behl. Could a credit card purchase solve this case? And an Amber Alert has police scrambling to find a car loaded with kids. Wait until you hear who they found in the driver‘s seat.
But first, the blockbuster interview that could soon change the course of the Natalee Holloway investigation on the island of Aruba.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JAMIE SKEETERS, POLYGRAPH EXAMINER: ... even if someone had given her a date drug. I‘m sure she had sex with all of you.
DEEPAK KALPOE, SUSPECT IN NATALEE HOLLOWAY DISAPPEARANCE: She did.
You‘d be surprised how simple it was.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: Now Aruban police officials say after they personally reviewed that taped interview, they may call Deepak Kalpoe and maybe the two other suspects back in for questioning, and this case could pop wide open. One official explained it this way late tonight with our Dan Abrams.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GERALD DOMPIG, ARUBAN DEPUTY POLICE CHIEF: I assure you that if these tapes are legitimate, it could turn around the case.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: And LIVE AND DIRECT tonight from California is the man who did that interview that‘s causing all the fireworks, polygraph examiner Jamie Skeeters. And also with us is former FBI profiler and MSNBC analyst Clint Van Zandt, who also talked to Deepak during his visit to Aruba.
Jamie, let me start with you. You talked to Deepak. Do you believe he said one thing to you and something very different to authorities?
JAMIE SKEETERS, POLYGRAPH EXAMINER: Yes, he—yes, I do. He told me that he had sex, they all had sex with Natalee on that night and that it was simple and that she was a slut, and et cetera.
COSBY: You know, Clint, I want to show another quote from the interview that—another comment here from the interview that Jamie did with Deepak, where, you know, again, it just talked about easy, how simple it was. Let‘s take a listen to Deepak Kalpoe.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KALPOE: To tell you quite frankly, dressed like a slut, talked like one, would go in a car with three strange guys, and her mother claiming her to be the goody two-shoes—enough of the BS already.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: You know, Clint, it doesn‘t sound like he‘s under pressure, right? Sounds like he‘s talking freely.
CLINT VAN ZANDT, MSNBC ANALYST, FORMER FBI PROFILER: Well, he‘s talking too much. And then again, you know, he‘s talking about someone who is at least missing and might be deceased. And when you see someone working so hard to try to besmirch the memory of this girl and to try to had put her mother down instead of just saying, You know, gee, it‘s a sad thing, I was the last one who saw her, I‘m really sorry about this—you know, there‘s something here.
There has always been something here with these three guys. And this is where the solution to this case lies. And the challenge is, the issue is the statements that they made to Jamie, the statements that Deepak made to Jamie, does that in and of itself constitute a criminal violation? Because there‘s still the issue of if there was consensual sex, then was there a violation of law? And the answer would be no.
COSBY: Yes, it depends, if it‘s rape, if it goes to the other level. Let me go to Jamie because, Jamie, the question tonight, as we heard from the deputy chief—he wants to hear these tapes. He wants to verify them for himself. Have you handed the tapes over?
SKEETERS: Well, see, that‘s the big issue here, Rita. I handed these tapes over to a very reliable company—it‘s called the FBI—a week or two ago. I‘m from the old school. I don‘t bring these things out in the public. You keep the integrity and the credibility of the evidence, and I can‘t think of anybody more credible than the FBI.
COSBY: Now, Jamie, has the FBI given them to Aruban authorities or the prosecutors down there?
SKEETERS: My understanding—I talked with the chief yesterday morning, Chief Dompig, and he—actually, I talked to him this morning. And he does not have the tapes in his hands at this moment, but he indicated the prosecutor was picking them up, and he hoped to have them, hopefully, today or tomorrow.
COSBY: All of the tapes or just part of the tapes?
SKEETERS: I turned everything I had over to the FBI, yes.
COSBY: And were you contacted about Aruban authorities, Jamie, too?
SKEETERS: Never. And this is what started the problem. I heard the chief on television indicate that Dr. Phil would not release the tapes under condition that they had to come over and make a movie. And so I called the chief. I called him for two days. And we had a long talk. And we‘re on the same page right now. As a matter of fact, he‘s going to come out here to California and throw a leg over a horse I have out here. But the chief indicated that the misunderstanding was between Beth‘s attorney, Hill (ph), and the prosecutor, and he was misinformed. And I said—I told the chief, Chief, I don‘t want the tapes. You‘re welcome to have them.
COSBY: Well, let me show a comment from the deputy chief talking about what he plans to do, and if these tapes are legitimate, what he plans to do next. Let‘s show that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DOMPIG: Well, once this is verified, and if it‘s legitimate, the case will turn around.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: Now, Clint, how long until he can, quote, “legitimize” the tapes to make sure they‘re for real? And what do you think‘s going to happen next?
VAN ZANDT: Well, I‘m sure that‘s one of the things he‘ll ask the FBI to do, is make sure there‘s no—you know—and this is not anything about Jamie whatsoever, but somebody has to look at the tapes and say there‘s no Nixonian gaps in the tape or anything like that.
COSBY: Yes, that‘s standard procedure, right?
VAN ZANDT: Sure, sure. It would be done—I mean, just like the CIA listens to the tapes of bin Laden, things like that. So you verify that, yes, in fact, it‘s a good tape. It hasn‘t been tampered with whatsoever. And then the FBI will pass it on to the police.
COSBY: Jamie, do you think that this could bust this case wide open?
I‘m sure you stand by your recording.
SKEETERS: Well, what I did, is my—it‘s not a tape, it‘s a videotape. You do see Deepak. You see him talk. It‘s not a recording tape. So everything is there. I downloaded it off of my computer onto a tape, and that‘s what we gave to the FBI.
COSBY: Well, good for you. Good job. And I hope this does push this case wide open, both of you.
SKEETERS: I‘m sure it will. Thank you.
COSBY: Thank you, both.
And I want to get the reaction to this latest development from Natalee‘s family. Joining me now live on the phone tonight is her father, Dave Holloway. Dave, you know, the language is really strong. You got to be optimistic tonight.
DAVE HOLLOWAY, NATALEE HOLLOWAY‘S FATHER: I am. I‘m very optimistic. But you know, we‘ve not reviewed the tape and the Aruban authorities have not reviewed the tape. So that‘s coming, and we‘ll see in a couple of days.
COSBY: And I want to show another comment from the deputy chief because this is sort of the first time I‘ve actually heard them really sort of say these are the guys. Let‘s take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DOMPIG: Well, at this time, I think that all three persons know something that they are not telling, at least not telling us.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: Dave, does that sound to you like things are moving forward?
HOLLOWAY: Well, I mean, we‘ve heard that all along. You know, they‘ve withheld information, in my opinion, and they know more than what they‘re telling. So that‘s no surprise.
COSBY: But it‘s interesting, Dave, that, actually, now we‘re hearing the chief, an official, actually saying that—you know, you and I talked about that, but it‘s interesting just how outright they‘re coming and making these statements and also saying that if they can prove this tape is legitimate, they then will bring these guys in and it will move the case forward. That‘s pretty assertive language.
HOLLOWAY: Absolutely. And I think from what I‘ve heard from Gerald Dompig is that—I‘m optimistic that he‘s going to do something. And we‘ll see.
COSBY: Absolutely. Now, the deputy chief is disputing some of the facts in the case. Let me show a part. This is basically where he says that Joran didn‘t have sex with her in the house, as we‘ve heard from some earlier statements. Let me play another little clip.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DOMPIG: The only statement that comes close is that he had a plan, he wanted to go to the house to have sex or whatever, but—and he stopped in front of the house, but they did not leave the car. So they didn‘t go into the house. That‘s his statement.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: Now, Dave, what‘s your understanding of what was said earlier by Joran?
HOLLOWAY: Well, I was only privileged to one of the statements, and that was read to Beth, Jug, myself, along with two attorneys. And of course, it was in Dutch, and the—one of the attorneys interpreted it. And from what I gathered, this tape indicated to me that Natalee was falling asleep, waking back up, falling asleep, waking back up, and that in my opinion, a sexual assault was occurring at the same time.
COSBY: When are you planning on heading back down to Aruba? And do you think there‘s now steam in this case?
HOLLOWAY: We‘re going back—I‘m going back with Tim Miller with Equusearch and a couple of other people sometime next week.
COSBY: Well, good for you, Dave, and I hope you finally get some answers. And I‘m glad to see Aruban authorities are giving some pretty strong comments that I hope they stand by it, in particular, when this case does get verified and this tape gets verified. Dave, thank you.
And now let‘s go along to another developing story tonight, one that is shocking a small town. Tonight, there are gruesome details in the shocking murder of Minnesota parents killed by their own son and his two teenage friends. Police say Matt Niedere shot his father five times his mother three times, but his mother did not die, so he reportedly had his friend kill her with a shotgun.
We‘ve obtained some exclusive transcripts from the 911 call made right after this brutal murder. The caller says, quote, “A guy came in, and he said he saw somebody shoot this lady inside Gordy‘s (ph) Auto Glass. She was on the ground inside the door. I‘m about 30, 40 feet away.”
But many say that they had no idea that Matt Niedere was capable of such a horrific crime. Joining me now on the phone in a LIVE AND DIRECT exclusive interview is Matt Niedere‘s uncle, Tom Loesch. Mr. Loesch, first of all, I got to get your reaction. You must have just been stunned to hear what he did.
TOM LOESCH, MATTHEW NIEDERE‘S UNCLE: Yes. The whole family was just shocked and devastated.
COSBY: It‘s got to be heartbreaking. Now, you know, obviously, he‘s in court. It‘s still alleged, at this point. But what was your reaction when you saw him in court?
LOESCH: It was pretty emotional. Many of the family members were there and it was hard for us to deal with.
COSBY: Did he look at you in the eye? Did he see you?
LOESCH: No, he would not look at any of the family members.
COSBY: You know what, Matt is accused of is particularly gruesome. I want to, you know, show a comment. I might—you know, it‘s heartbreaking. It was hard to hear. This is the DA last night on our show, describing what happened to Matt‘s mother.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JAMES BACKSTROM, DAKOTA COUNTY, MINN., ATTORNEY: The son and/or one of the co-conspirators went to their place of business, one with a shotgun, one with a .22-caliber handgun. The mother was shot once. She ran out of the building and out the front door and yelled for help. Unfortunately, the person she asked for help was the co-conspirator. He told her—helped her to go back inside the door, where she was shot two more times, fell to the floor.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: Mr. Loesch, Was there any violence in Matt‘s background, anything that could have triggered this?
LOESCH: There was none whatsoever.
COSBY: What do you make of—you know, we‘re hearing some of the stories that they got into huge arguments about his not wanting to go church, his flirting with maybe girls at church. Maybe money was a motive, was one of the other things. Do you know of any, you know, turbulence in that family‘s background?
LOESCH: No. They were a very loving, kind family that loved both their children. There was never anything that was ever any indication of any arguments or anything to that nature.
COSBY: What can you tell us about Matthew, the boy who is accused now of sort of masterminding this?
LOESCH: That‘s a tough question to answer, I guess. I would rather not speculate on that at all.
COSBY: How do you feel about him now?
LOESCH: I don‘t really want to make a comment on that situation, either.
COSBY: How is this affecting the family? It‘s just got to be just heartbreaking, I would imagine, sir.
LOESCH: Yes, it is. It‘s—they‘re dealing with the grief of losing a daughter, a sister, a brother, you know, a brother-in-law. And we are all just drawing on each other‘s strengths to help us through this tragic thing.
COSBY: Well, Mr. Loesch, I really appreciate you being here. And our prayers are absolutely with you and that whole family. Thank you very much for speaking with us tonight. We appreciate it.
And tonight, a male teacher is accused of having sex with his 14-year-old student. That student is going to join us live with her mother to tell us what really happened. And that‘s not all on our show tonight. Take a look.
Still ahead: Is there a big break in the mysterious death of a Virginia college student? Taylor Behl was found buried in rural Virginia. Now wait until you hear what police have found. Could a credit card be the downfall for the prime suspect?
And a massive manhunt for a man accused of shooting a police officer. Dramatic pictures from the scene. And his family joins us in a LIVE AND DIRECT exclusive with a plea for the fugitive.
And a man is caught on surveillance tape speeding off with four kids in his car. Frightened witnesses call for help. Tonight, the driver at the center of the Amber Alert joins me, coming up.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COSBY: New developments tonight in the investigation of Taylor Behl‘s death. Suspect Ben Fawley reportedly left a paper trail of credit card activity after Behl‘s disappearance. Meantime, Behl‘s body has now been released to her family.
Joining me now on the phone is “Richmond Times-Dispatch” newspaper reporter Jim Nolan, who‘s been following the story from the very beginning. And also with me live tonight is private investigator and former police detective Vito Colucci.
Jim, let‘s start with you. What do you know about this credit card trail?
JIM NOLAN, “RICHMOND TIMES-DISPATCH”: Well, Rita, what we know is that sometime in the morning following the night Taylor Behl is said to have disappeared, Ben Fawley‘s bank card was recorded in a purchase of gasoline and other items in a location somewhere between Richmond and Mathews County. Mathews County as you know is the location where Taylor Behl‘s body was found just last week.
COSBY: Also, I know last night, they put out a big alert, saying, Please look for her car. There was a Ford Escort. Who may have been in her car? And also, the license plates, if anybody had seen the license plates related to the case. Why is that significant? Do they believe Ben Fawley or someone else was driving the car or had those plates at the time?
NOLAN: Well, clearly, what they are trying to get at is whether or not that car, Taylor‘s car—which, by the way, had not been discovered until 12 days after she was reported missing—had, in fact, been the car that made a trip down in that direction.
Now, obviously, we know Taylor never made it back, but we do know that her car was discovered 12 days after she was reported missing in the fan (ph). What police believe—at least, what we‘re led to believe they believe—is that that car may have made a trip in that direction. That‘s why they want people in Mathews County to say whether they‘ve seen the vehicle and, hopefully, establish a further link between the crime and her vehicle.
COSBY: All right, let me—stick with us, Jim. I want to bring in Vito. Vito, first of all, let‘s tackle the car issue. If they can pinpoint someone else using that car, stolen car.
VITO COLUCCI, PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR: Yes, that‘s big, Rita. That‘s why I‘m sure somebody would probably see that vehicle. This is a secluded place. He‘s used this place with his last girlfriend. And you know, he can talk any of these 16-year-old, 17-year-old, 18-year-old girls, it seems like, into almost anything. So that‘s very important if anybody saw that vehicle there.
COSBY: You bet. Now, the credit card trail that Jim‘s talking about
if, indeed, there‘s this purchase from the, quote, sort of “prime suspect,” Ben Fawley, who is a guy who had a relationship with Taylor Behl
credit card purchase in between these two counties the morning of, means he was traveling either to or from. That is pretty significant, right, Vito?
COLUCCI: Oh, that‘s very big, Rita. It shows that he‘s lying. As an investigator, you knew from day one that he‘s lying, but this gives you ammunition now to sit across the table and point your finger at this guy, who basically said he was almost abducted by, let‘s say, aliens, mysterious people, OK, that nobody knew about or anything else. Then he says he puts gas in a Spanish person‘s car who mysteriously just picks him up and drives him back.
It‘s ridiculous stuff. You got to wear this guy down. He‘s too used to talking to young kids and getting away with stuff. He‘s not going to do that. This is a good PD down there.
COSBY: Now, let me play devil‘s advocate, Vito. He‘s also—if he did do this, he‘s pretty dumb because you leave a paper trail.
COLUCCI: Yes, he is. But you know, Rita, this guy is a career criminal. He had 10 counts against him before Taylor was even born, so this guy‘s been around the block. That‘s why he announces this gas purchase, thinking that he‘s going to con a top-notch police department. And he‘s not.
COSBY: Good point. Now, Jim, let me bring you in real quick here. Jim, in terms of—her body was handed over, I know, to the family. I know they‘re is planning a funeral soon. Do we have any idea—have you heard anything from your contacts in terms of cause of death?
NOLAN: Well, what we know, Rita, is that the medical examiner has declassified the cases pending, meaning they need further test results to make a determination on cause of death. If this were considered an undetermined case, then there might be a little bit of a cause for concern. But we were told that the remains were mostly skeletal, and so there was no obvious sign of a cause of death in the initial gross autopsy performed by the medical examiner.
They‘re going to need to take these tests and analyze them and see if they can come up with a cause of death. And what we‘re told is that after they do that, which could be anywhere from a week to a number of weeks, then they‘ll proceed to try and link her death, if, presumably, it is a homicide, to one of their suspects.
COSBY: All right, Jim. Thank you very much. And Vito, stick with us. Jim, we appreciate all your reporting. Thank you.
And now to another missing woman that we‘ve learned that there are some new leads in the case of a missing mother from Georgia. This is one we‘ve been following quite a bit. We‘ve obtained this exclusive home video, though, which we‘re going to show you right now, showing the images of Sueann Ray at her sister‘s wedding. The family is offering a $105,000 reward for Sueann‘s safe return. She left her home one night in August and she never returned. But her car was found three days later in a Wal-Mart parking lot.
Joining me now live is Sueann Ray‘s sister, Sandy Chasm, again. And also with us on the phone tonight is Sueann‘s father, Danny Jenkins.
Danny, as we show the video—and if we can show some of that—what goes through your mind when you see this home video of your beautiful daughter?
DANNY JENKINS, MISSING WOMAN‘S FATHER: You just can‘t imagine. It‘s just—I rather not even watch it.
COSBY: Yes, it‘s got to be just heartbreaking. Sandy, you know, as you see the video, which, you know, you kindly gave us, I‘m sure it brings back a lot of beautiful memories. Sandy?
SANDY CHASM, MISSING WOMAN‘S SISTER: Sure it does. It does.
COSBY: What do you hope people look for, too, as they look at these pictures? And we‘ll zoom in on her. There she is, highlighted. What do you hope folks at home are looking for tonight?
CHASM: Just that they‘ll see her eyes and her smile and bring her back home to us.
COSBY: You bet. You know, and Danny, just hours before Sueann disappeared, I understand you spoke to her. Tell us about that conversation.
JENKINS: She was just her old—you know, her own Sueann, bubbly self. Hey, Daddy, what are you doing, you know? And you know, she was thinking about coming to my house that weekend. And she was just—you know, she just—just the greatest daughter, the greatest mother, just the greatest kid that any dad could have ever.
COSBY: Was there anything unusual, Mr. Jenkins, at all?
JENKINS: Oh, no. She was just—she was just bubbly. I mean, she just always—you know—of course, this was 12:0 o‘clock, you know, around noon, when she was getting off for her dinner—for lunch. And I think she got upset with her husband or her estranged husband around 3:00-ish or so, when he called and wanted to get—pick the baby up and he wasn‘t supposed to. I think that she was upset then. I think they had a couple of arguments and fights or whatever on the phone then.
COSBY: You know, Sandy, do you believe the key maybe leads to the estranged husband? As we‘re looking at, you know, some descriptions of your beautiful sister. Do you believe that he holds the key? I mean, she went over to get an oil change from him, and the next thing you know, she‘s missing.
CHASM: Yes, I think that the key is all in him.
COSBY: And why do you believe that personally, Sandy?
CHASM: Just because I know him and I‘ve seen his temper before, and I know that he wanted Sueann for himself. And you know, if—basically, if he couldn‘t have her, then nobody could. And he has told me that before.
COSBY: Both of you, if you could, stick with us, please, because I want to bring into the conversation private investigator Vito Colucci again.
You know, Vito, as you hear these clues, it sounds like you got to at least talk to the estranged husband, right?
COLUCCI: Oh, definitely. He‘s lawyered up, so I don‘t know how much they‘re getting through to him through this attorney. But you know, the percentage, Rita, is, like, 75 percent. When there‘s an incident like that, the person, as you know, closest to the individual is always the key suspect, turns out to be main person. And plus, he‘s the last one that is known to be with her, with this oil change thing. So you know, you got to really look at him on this, you know?
COSBY: Now, he was brought in on some unrelated charges not tied to his wife‘s disappearance. Could that also—Vito, you‘re an experienced guy. Could that be sort of squeeze pressure tactic?
COLUCCI: Yes, it is. The only problem is, if God forbid, there‘s foul play with his wife here, you can‘t work out too much of a deal on these lesser charges, you know? But you got to try to do what you can with this guy. I talked to Sergeant King today down in Georgia.
I had some questions for him, and he was good enough to answer. And he wanted me to pass along that he has six men working on this case and they‘ve spent over 1,000 man hours already. So to me, I was impressed with that. They‘re pulling out all the stops, Rita, on this.
COSBY: Oh, that‘s a good thing. That‘s a good thing to hear. Let me bring in Mr. Jenkins. Did you just hear what Vito was saying -- 1,000 man hours? It sounds like there‘s a lot of effort. Are you pleased, at least, about the police response?
JENKINS: I‘ve got no problem with the Woodstock Police Department and Sergeant King and Will Marrow (ph). They‘ve absolutely busted their cans trying to come up with something. But you see, three weeks ago, they were pretty much taken off the case and it was handed over to the GBI And you know, I‘ve asked them three or four times, Do you want Sueann to pop out of the ground and say, Hey, here I am, come find me? If we don‘t look for her, we‘re not going to find her. And they are not looking. And I don‘t know of anything—I mean, I‘m sure the GBI is working on it, but you know, if you don‘t search, if you do not search places of interest, then you‘re not going to find my daughter.
COSBY: No, you bet. You know, Sandy, do you have faith, I guess, in now GBI‘s handling it well? And I know also you got a big reward up. Are tips coming in, from your understanding, Sandy?
CHASM: Yes, I mean, I have to believe that they‘re doing everything that they can do, you know, just like my daddy was saying. The Woodstock Police Department, I know, has searched everywhere they possibly know of. And I just don‘t know if GBI knows of anywhere else to search.
COSBY: Well, I hope they keep looking at any leads possible. All of you, thank you very, very much. We hope you get some good answers soon about your daughter and your sister. Thank you, Vito, too.
And still ahead, everybody, developments in the New Orleans police beating caught on tape. Cops now say they did nothing wrong. Find out what they base that on.
Plus, the family of a fugitive accused of shooting a cop makes a desperate plea for him to come clean. They‘re going to be with us. Stay tuned.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SHERIFF KEVIN BEARY, ORANGE COUNTY, Florida: Quite frankly, I am tired of responding to ORMC and rubbing the heads of my 25-year-old deputies. We‘re not going to give up until we have the people in custody.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: And tonight, a massive manhunt is under way in Florida for this man, a man accused of shooting a deputy. Authorities say Jeffery Forbes shot and wounded a deputy after a suspected drug deal on Monday. And they warn that he is likely armed and dangerous now.
Joining us with the very latest, live on the phone, is spokesman Jim Solomons from the Orange County, Florida, sheriff‘s department.
Jim, first of all, tell us why deputies swarmed in on Mr. Forbes to begin with?
JIM SOLOMONS, ORANGE COUNTY, FLORIDA, SHERIFF‘S OFFICE: Well, it wasn‘t a swarm in. It was a deputy on routine patrol that saw what he believed to be a hand-to-hand drug transaction. He radioed that incident in and was actually trying to make contact with the suspects.
So when he approached the suspects, Mr. Forbes ran on a bicycle. About that time, Deputy Pierce was arriving on the scene, went into a brief foot pursuit. For whatever reason, the suspect circled back into where this original confrontation took place.
Another deputy fired his taser. Forbes went down, and nearly came up shooting Deputy Pierce.
COSBY: What kind of condition is Deputy Pierce in now?
SOLOMONS: All we‘re saying right now is his condition is very serious, but he‘s stable.
COSBY: Is he going to make it?
SOLOMONS: Well, we expect him to make it. But he‘s currently being carefully evaluated by some of the best doctors in the state of Florida. And we‘re waiting to get a final conclusion as to, you know, the exact nature of his injuries.
But we do want to state his condition. It‘s serious, but we expect him to make it.
COSBY: And any tips where Jeffery Forbes, Jr., could be tonight?
SOLOMONS: Well, actually, we‘re following up on a number of tips in Orlando. And thus far, he‘s managed to elude us. But it is a very aggressive manhunt. And we‘re hoping that he will soon realize that he‘s not going to get away and he‘ll do the sensible thing and surrender peacefully.
COSBY: Let‘s hope so. Jim, thank you very much. Keep us posted.
And two of Jeffery Forbes‘ family members have an urgent message to send to him tonight. And they felt that it was very important to be here with us tonight for this exclusive interview.
Joining me now live are Jeffery‘s father, Jeffery Forbes, Sr., and also Jeffery‘s grandmother, Corine Andrews.
Mr. Forbes, if your son is watching tonight, what do you want to say to him?
JEFFERY FORBES, SR., FATHER OF MANHUNT SUSPECT: I‘d like to say to him, you know, please get in contact with me so we can get together and arrange to turn him in. But it‘s—you know, I love my son. And I don‘t believe he did it, but I want him to turn himself in, because if he did do it, you know—he needs to turn himself in either way it goes.
You know, but, I need him to come to us so we can help him, because down here, it‘s just like anywhere else. You know, I mean, he‘s a young black kid shot a young white cop. I‘m sorry for what happened to the young man, you know, but this is my son. And I really don‘t think he did this.
And if he turns himself into us, we can get him a lawyer, get somebody that we trust and we can turn him in, because, right now, they‘re going—the way they‘re talking, they‘re going to shoot first and ask questions later.
COSBY: Right, absolutely. And, again, you know, they believe he may have shot this deputy, so they‘re very concerned.
You know, Mrs. Andrews, if he is watching, you know, as your son points out, obviously, you know, you want your grandson to come in, to explain if there‘s something else behind this. What do you want to say, if your grandson is watching right now?
CORINE ANDREWS, GRANDMOTHER OF MANHUNT SUSPECT: Well, I just want to tell him that we love him. And I don‘t believe he did what they say he was doing. And, just like this sergeant, whoever this guy was talking was saying he, for some unexplained reason, that he went around the corner and came back.
Now, to me, common sense would tell you, if you have already had a confrontation with a police officer, and you know he‘s still there, why on God‘s green Earth would you turn around and come back into the same situation, you know?
My grandson is out there. He‘s a very intelligent young man. Whatever else he might do, he‘s not stupid. He‘s not going to run back into a situation.
And I just want to tell Jeff that, as long as he stay out there, the madder they‘re going to get, the more aggressive they‘re going to get, and they‘re not going to care what happened to him.
As he said, I feel sorry for this young guy and his family, but this is my grandson. This is two families caught up in the same thing. One is already hurt. Another one is going to get hurt or killed.
And right now, I‘m leaning towards my grandson getting killed. And I want him to come in so we, my pastor, and a lawyer can get him and walk him into the police station. I‘d rather see him go in there than to go to a morgue, because right now this is what they‘re planning.
COSBY: Now, Mr. Forbes, do you have any idea, maybe, if someone is helping him, if he could be hiding somewhere? Is there any thoughts of where he could be right now?
FORBES: No, I haven‘t talked to Jeff in about two months. And I don‘t have no idea where he can be. You know, I wish I did, because, you know, as God as is my witness, I‘d go get him and I would set this record straight, you know?
You know, like I said before, you know, I feel sorry for the family that happened to this young man, you know? And I want my son to turn himself in. But, you know, being a black man and doing something like this, they‘re accusing him doing something like this here.
You know, he‘s running scared. You know, if he did it, you know, or if didn‘t do it, he‘s still running scared. And for the situation that‘s going on, you know—I just need him to get in contact with us so we can help him get out of this situation.
COSBY: You bet. And I do hope he‘s watching tonight. Both of you, thank you for coming forward.
FORBES: Thank you.
COSBY: I know it takes a lot of courage. And, of course, we don‘t want to see anyone else hurt here. So we really appreciate you being with us. Please, keep us posted. Let us know what we can do.
And, again, if you have any information about the whereabouts of Jeffery Forbes, Florida police are asking you to call. This is the tip line that you see here. It‘s 1-407-423-TIPS or 1-800-423-TIPS.
And, Jeffery, if you are watching, please call your family. Please call authorities. Do the right thing. Thank you very much.
And still ahead, everybody, a social studies teacher is in hot water for being way too social with his 14-year-old student. Tonight, the girl is hiding her identity so she can join us next live and tell us her seduction story.
And find out what happened when a man caught on videotape beaten by New Orleans police—he had a day in court today. Find out what happened. Stay tuned.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COSBY: A shocking case of a teacher accused of having sex with his student. The teacher, a former Chicago social studies teacher, was charged with criminal sexual assault in June and has lost his teaching license.
Tonight, the alleged victim is joining us live with her story. We‘re concealing her identity because she is just 14 years old.
Also with us tonight is her mother who is with us, who we‘re only identifying by her first name, Michelle, in order to protect her daughter, as well. And also with us is their attorney, Debra Opri.
Let me start with the victim, the 14-year-old girl. How did this happen? How did you get involved with your teacher?
FOURTEEN-YEAR-OLD, SAYS SEDUCED BY TEACHER: Well, he started acting more like a boyfriend and not a teacher would act.
COSBY: What kind of things did he do? What kind of things did he do?
FOURTEEN-YEAR-OLD: He started bringing me gifts, like when he went on trips. And he started favoring me over the other students, and asking me to stay after class, and e-mailing me on a constant basis.
COSBY: And when did it—did it turn physical? And when did it turn physical, and where?
FOURTEEN-YEAR-OLD: In the classroom, and it did become physical. He started kissing me in the class. And it started early in the year.
COSBY: And you also had sexual relations, I understand, right?
FOURTEEN-YEAR-OLD: Yes.
COSBY: And he sent you—you said there were some e-mails. What did you say to each other in those e-mails? What did he say to you?
FOURTEEN-YEAR-OLD: Just how, like, what he wanted do, and how he would want to have sex, and that kind of stuff.
COSBY: Did you think he loved you?
FOURTEEN-YEAR-OLD: Towards the end, I started to believe that.
COSBY: Did you know it was wrong at the time? Because the teacher that you‘re speaking about, 33 years old. You know, you‘re 14. Did you know it was wrong?
FOURTEEN-YEAR-OLD: I did. But I got really caught up in it, because he made me feel pretty. And I was new to that school. And I didn‘t have very many friends. And he just, you know, comforted me and took advantage.
COSBY: Let me bring in your mom now, Michelle.
Michelle, how did you find out that your daughter was having a sexual relationship, she says, with her teacher?
MICHELLE, MOTHER OF ALLEGED VICTIM: Well, you know, the night before graduation, my daughter had her e-mail open. And I, you know, sat down and, you know, thought, you know, let me go through this and, you know, see what my child is doing. And I came across these e-mails.
COSBY: And how outraged were you when you read those e-mails?
MICHELLE: Oh, my heart was just broke when I saw those. And...
COSBY: You just had to be just stunned, too.
MICHELLE: I was.
COSBY: What did the e-mails say that you read?
MICHELLE: Well, it was my daughter responding back to the teacher, you know. And it definitely showed her emotions towards him, that, you know, she wanted to see him again, and she cared about him, and things of that nature, and some sexual words, as well.
COSBY: Let me bring in Deb real quick, Deb Opri. There‘s a comment, also, I want to show. This is from Mr. Garcia‘s attorneys, who actually are parents and have kids, I think, at the same school.
But let me show—it says, “As his attorneys, we maintain Mr. Garcia‘s innocence as to the allegations and know his innocence will remain with him at the conclusion of the proceedings. In addition, as parents of the Ogden Elementary School family, we, along with the Ogden community, including parents and students, believe in his innocence and support him 100 percent during his difficult time.”
How do you think, first of all, Deb, the D.A. has handled this? What did the D.A. say to your client?
DEBRA OPRI, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, first, Rita, thanks for bringing this to light. Child molestation is a disease, it‘s a crime, it‘s a plague. It doesn‘t belong on the school premises.
How would I handle a district attorney telling my clients this was a consensual affair, he‘s going to plead out, you don‘t need to testify? I would tell that district attorney to find another line of work.
I don‘t appreciate it, if it did happen, and my understanding is it did happen. Mr. Garcia is presumed innocent. And if he‘s claiming he‘s innocent, then go to that courtroom and fight for yourself.
But I think my client is believable and she wants to testify. And we all have a job to do, Rita, all of us. And that‘s to get rid of child molesters once and for all.
COSBY: No, you bet. And let me bring in Wendy Murphy—Wendy, former sex crimes prosecutor—into the conversation.
Wendy, you know, if indeed the D.A. said this was consensual, I mean, come on. This is a 33-year-old teacher and a 14-year-old student.
WENDY MURPHY, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Look, how did he get elected, is what I want to know? And what are the constituents going to do next time around? If they reelect that guy, they deserve what they get.
People need to understand, prosecutors make important decisions, including, for example, whether to prosecute serious child sex abuse. She‘s 14. He‘s not just a grown man, he‘s her teacher.
OPRI: Thank you.
MURPHY: And the school is a special place where you‘re supposed to learn, not exploit. Kids fall in love with their teachers all the time. I did.
OPRI: That‘s right.
MURPHY: And you have to respect and honor that boundary, not take advantage of the fact that kids are going to have crushes at that age.
I have a 14-year-old daughter. That guy wouldn‘t be going to trial if that was my kid, because he would be in a hospital. He‘d be on his way to a jail cell, but he‘d be in a hospital for a long time.
OPRI: Bravo, Wendy.
COSBY: You bet, you guys. Let me bring in—let me go to Michelle and also her daughter. Let me ask her daughter real quick, what advice do you have for other kids out there tonight? Unfortunately, you know, there have been other cases.
What advice—now you know it‘s wrong, obviously, the relationship.
And what advice do you have for others?
FOURTEEN-YEAR-OLD: Well, it taught me to really get to know someone before I started to trust them, especially with things that are really close and are close to your heart, and just to be conscious of people like that, that there are people like that in the world, and not to fall in the trap, to try to prevent it.
COSBY: Well, we really appreciate all of you being here tonight and, of course, the 14-year-old girl and her mom, Michelle. It takes a lot of courage for both of you to be here. And we appreciate it. And I hope some other kids are listening. And I thank all of you very much for being here tonight. We appreciate it.
Everybody, stick with us. We‘re going to have a lot more, right after the break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FRANK DESALVO, ATTORNEY FOR ACCUSED NEW ORLEANS COPS: Had this man just complied and said, “Listen, I‘m here. I got a friend over there. If you can call, come get me,” he‘d have gone home. Had he just let them cuff him, he would have just gone off to jail and gone home. He brought it on by his actions.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: Tonight, the police officers involved in that violent beating of a New Orleans man say they did nothing wrong. Instead, they claim the alleged victim, Robert Davis, was drunk and actually resisted arrest. And they say that videotape that you see here doesn‘t tell the full story.
Joining me now live with his reaction to these claims is Orleans Parish District Attorney Eddie Jordan, Jr.
Mr. Jordan, you know, you heard from the attorneys...
EDDIE JORDAN, JR., ORLEANS PARISH DISTRICT ATTORNEY: Good evening, Rita.
COSBY: Good evening. You know, you heard from the attorneys here. They say the guys didn‘t do anything wrong. What do you make of it, while we‘re looking at the tape?
JORDAN: Well, the tape suggests to me that there was criminal activity. And...
COSBY: On whose part?
JORDAN: ... we‘re going to have to do a thorough—criminal activity on the part of the police officers. It appears to me that they used unreasonable, excessive force. And we‘re simply going to have to conduct a thorough investigation to determine whether that is, in fact, the case.
COSBY: Let me show another comment. This is from the attorney for the police officers, basically sort of putting a different light on what we‘ve all sort of seen. Let‘s take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DESALVO: He clearly was not hit in the face. I mean, that‘s—the reason people perceive him as being hit in the face is because so many media people have played the tape and said, “Oh, he was hit in the face,” so it‘s suggested, then it‘s believed.
But we‘ve broken the thing down, frame by frame. He was never struck in his face.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: Well, yes, Mr. Jordan, I‘m sure. We look at this picture.
He‘s got a big shiner. How did he get that shiner in his eye?
JORDAN: I just don‘t think that the video is consistent with the defense made by the defense attorney here.
COSBY: What do you think is going to happen? Do you think—I know these officers have been charged. Do you think it‘s going to lead to pretty serious, where they could actually be behind bars?
JORDAN: Do I think that they‘ll end up behind bars, is that the question?
COSBY: Yes. I know they were charged. But what do you think is going to happen if, indeed, it turns out that they did overstep the line, as you believe?
JORDAN: Well, they must be held accountable, if, in fact, they broke the law. There‘s no question about that. And we have to draw the line and make it very clear that we‘re not going to tolerate police brutality in our city notwithstanding the conditions created by the hurricane.
It‘s clear that there was frustration and there‘s fatigue on the part of our police officers, but we can‘t have police officers beating our citizens.
COSBY: No, you bet. Well, Mr. Jordan, D.A. there in Orleans Parish, always great to have you on, sir, and please keep us posted. Nice to see you with us.
And still ahead, everybody, a man is hunted down as part of an Amber Alert, but, oops, wait until you hear what happened when police discovered the true identity of the driver. Stick with us, everybody.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COSBY: Tonight, a story that can only be called an “Amber oops.” Cincinnati police issued an all-points bulletin after people at a post office told police that a guy kidnapped a carload of kids.
Turns out, most of them were his own kids. Web Wilson joins me now with his kids.
Mr. Wilson, first of all, they were going through the trunk? Why was the confusion, real quick?
WEB WILSON, AMBER ALERT “SUSPECT”: Well, we had gone down to the post office that evening to drop off some mail late at night, at about 9:00. And we had just bought that car that afternoon, so the kids were exploring and crawling around all over inside the car when it was parked in the parking lot.
And I opened up the trunk to take the mail out, and they had popped through a hatch door that connected the back seat to the trunk. And they started to get out. You know, they surprised me, “Surprise, Dad,” and they started to get out, because they thought they were going to go into the post office with me.
And I said, “Get back in there,” and then I shut the trunk. So whoever saw it thought that I had shut these kids—these three little ones in the back of the trunk.
COSBY: And, now, Mr. Wilson, how stunned were you to find out there was an ABP out for you, that they thought you actually kidnapped all these kids that are your own?
WILSON: Yes, it was incredulous. That morning, I got a call from my father-in-law, Jim Farley (ph). And he said, “You need to turn on the television. You‘re a wanted man. You‘re a fugitive.”
And that‘s when I saw the description and the photograph from the post office. So I was quite surprised to see that they had been looking for me all night long.
COSBY: Let me bring in Annie, your little girl. Annie, were you surprised at all the fuss over your dad, all the craziness that happened?
ANNIE WILSON, DAUGHTER OF AMBER ALERT “SUSPECT”: Yes, it‘s funny, too.
COSBY: Yes, what did you think? Did you have any idea? Do you understand now what happened?
A. WILSON: Yes.
COSBY: Were you surprised that the police were looking for your dad?
A. WILSON: Yes. I was scared, too.
COSBY: You were scared. But you‘re not scared anymore, right?
A. WILSON: No.
(LAUGHTER)
COSBY: Web, I bet, though, as a parent, just real quick, you‘re probably happy that at least they had a lookout, right?
WILSON: Yes, I‘d rather side with caution, you know, under these type of situations. If you think there‘s an abduction or something, again, safe than sorry, Rita.
COSBY: You bet. Well, thank you very much, Web Wilson and your gorgeous family. And I‘m glad everybody‘s safe and sound. Thank you so much.
WILSON: Thank you.
COSBY: And, everybody, that does it for us here on LIVE & DIRECT.
I‘m Rita Cosby.
Right now, Monica Crowley is sitting in for Joe Scarborough on “SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY.” She starts right now—Monica?
MONICA CROWLEY, MSNBC HOST: Thank you so much, Rita.
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