Guest: Paul Steidler; Michael Okwu; Kristin Hatch; Bob Paquette; Beth Holloway Twitty; Joe Dwinell; Joe Flaherty; Wendy Murphy; Vito Collucci; Joyce Keese; Drew Keese; Tim Miller
RITA COSBY, HOST: Good evening, everybody. Tonight, a shocking stand-off between an outraged father and the man he says molested his son.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) that you are a rapist. You raped my son when he was 9 years old!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You‘re a liar!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you admitted it!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: How far would you go to stop an abuser? One of the former priest‘s accuser at that dramatic confrontation joins me LIVE AND DIRECT.
And you‘ll be shocked when you hear why the FBI is not taking cadaver dogs back to Aruba to look for Natalee Holloway and who they are blaming. Beth Holloway Twitty is going to join me live.
But first, the mystery deepens in the shocking double murder of a mother and child in Massachusetts. Husband Neil Entwistle is a person of interest in the case, and since the murders has been hiding out in England. U.S. investigators flew to the U.K. over the weekend to talk to Neil Entwistle, but he is refusing to cooperate. Meantime, Rachel Entwistle‘s family broke their silence, and the message is clear from the newspaper headlines: Where is the runaway husband?
Joining me now is the managing editor of Herald Media, part of the Boston herald Group, Joe Dwinell. Joe, we‘ve heard, like, sort of mixed things. Is he talking to investigators or not? And what is he saying?
JOE DWINELL, MANAGING EDITOR, HERALD MEDIA: Well, as best as we can tell from our sources, he is not talking to investigators. He may have gone to the U.S. embassy, and that‘s where it all ended, Rita.
COSBY: You know, some of the front pages of the headlines—I want to show—these are over there, and these are the Boston headlines, too, some pretty strong ones. What is the progress across the Atlantic? Are you hearing that authorities are doing anything on that end? Obviously, folks are looking at the husband.
DWINELL: Well, they are looking at the husband. They‘re looking at everything. The DA is still saying that Neil Entwistle is a person of interest. They are also back here, the investigation is ongoing. More details are coming out. I just came from the newsroom, and we are working this story as hard as we can.
COSBY: What is the sense in terms of where things are going with the investigation? Are they looking at other people, or are all eyes looking at Neil Entwistle?
DWINELL: Well, I believe there‘s a bit of a stalemate in England. That‘s where the investigation moved over to. The investigators have come back home, the Massachusetts investigators, and now a lot of the attention is turning towards tomorrow‘s wake and Wednesday‘s funeral for Rachel and little Lilly.
COSBY: You know, Joe, what‘s the timeline of events? I‘m unclear.
When did he leave? When did he book his flight to leave to go to England?
Was it before, after the murders? Do we know?
DWINELL: I don‘t think we know. We don‘t know. We don‘t know when he booked his flight. The DA is saying that he left sometime Friday night or Saturday. And then, the DA is also saying that a wellbeing check was made on Saturday. A wellbeing check was made on Sunday. And that‘s when the bodies were discovered, on Sunday night, January 22.
COSBY: You know, and the obit in the “Patriot Ledger” newspaper over the weekend, Rachel is described as a loving mother, beloved daughter, stepdaughter, sister, stepsister, and so on, describing her and—you know, her and Lillian. No word of Neil Entwistle or his parents mentioned in the obits. What do you make of this?
DWINELL: That‘s a glaring omission. I mean, when I read...
COSBY: It certainly is.
DWINELL: ... that obituary—it is. When I read that obituary, it just jumps out at you. Having done thousands of obituaries, you know that a husband or a father is going to be listed. He is not.
COSBY: Yes, very interesting. Joe, please keep us posted on any developments in this case.
And joining me now is a lifelong family friend and spokesman for Rachel and Lillian Entwistle, Joe Flaherty. Joe, first of all, our condolences with the family. How are they holding up tonight?
JOE FLAHERTY, RACHEL ENTWISTLE FAMILY SPOKESMAN: Thank you, Rita. Well, as you can imagine, their grief is overwhelming. It‘s been a tremendous—it‘s left a tremendous void, not just in the family‘s lives but everyone that was connected, all the close friends that were connected to Rachel and to Lillian.
COSBY: How long have you known the family? And Joe, why did they decide to speak out now?
FLAHERTY: Well, I think the family‘s concern is to make sure that the focus stays on the victims here, on Rachel and on Lillian. And I think they want to get across that—you know, the fact that Rachel was a loving mother. I mean, she was really the essence of a loving mother, a great daughter. She was a tremendous sister. She had all the qualities. She had a great sense of humor. You know, as you know, she lived in England. She was very—she loved England. Her daughter—and a lot of people, I think, forget this. Her daughter is actually a British citizen, having been born there last April 9 of 2005.
COSBY: Has the family from her side had any contact with Neil Entwistle or his family? And if so, to what degree, Joe?
FLAHERTY: You know, at this point, the family, obvious—for obvious
reasons, because of the—the ongoing investigation, really wants to keep
everything surrounding this investigation is going to be left to the people in the Middlesex County district attorney‘s office, the State Police, the Hopkinton police. The family has every confidence that they will meticulously examine the evidence in this case and that, eventually, the facts of this case will come out. The evidence will lead to whoever is responsible for this utter travesty to this family, and that they‘ll be held accountable.
COSBY: Can you at least tell us a bit about their relationship, what kind of relationship the Entwistles had?
FLAHERTY: Well, again, you know, the police are going to look into all of that, and some of those things may end up being part of the case, they may not. I really couldn‘t speak to that. So they really don‘t want to comment on that right now. They‘d rather keep the focus on just what a great person Rachel was, what a loving daughter. She loved being a mother. She was very close to her own mother, having watched her father when she was only 9 years old and her brother, Jerome Souza (ph), they grew up as a very tight-knit family. And Rachel was just the type of person that was always there for everyone. And at this point, their friends and family and the outpouring of support from total strangers has been overwhelming. And quite frankly, they credit Rachel for that because that‘s the type of person, that‘s the kind of life that she led, helping other people.
COSBY: Yes, we‘ve heard a lot of good things about her. You know, Joe, have you heard with if the husband‘s even coming to the service? Do you know that, yes or no?
FLAHERTY: I don‘t know that.
COSBY: Tell us also—you know, one of the most devastating things -
you talked about Rachel‘s relationship with her mother. I was reading that, I guess, her mother was one of the folks who went over to the house and was looking for her. Her mother just must be devastated.
FLAHERTY: Absolutely. I mean, you can imagine, again, the void that‘s been left there. And being as close as they were from the time that she was a child—I mean, they talked on a daily basis, four or five times a day. And it didn‘t matter if Rachel was out of the country or whether she was in England, whether she was at Holy Cross College, where she went to school, they were always in constant contact. And actually, that‘s one of the things that alerted the family when it did is because the mother had not heard from her daughter. Even after several hours, she became concerned.
COSBY: Does the family get a sense that things are going to be resolved, that there will be a solution to this case, someone will be held accountable?
FLAHERTY: They have every confidence that the Middlesex County district attorney‘s office, District Attorney Coakley‘s office, and that the Massachusetts State Police, the Hopkinton police will solve this case and they will bring those that are responsible for the death of Rachel and Lillian Entwistle to justice.
COSBY: Well, good. I hope that family gets some answers. Joe, thank you very much. We appreciate you being here.
FLAHERTY: Thank you, Rita.
COSBY: And now let‘s bring in, if I could, Wendy Murphy. She‘s a former prosecutor who worked for the Middlesex County, Massachusetts, district attorney‘s office. And also private investigator Vito Colucci.
Wendy, you know, we were talking with Joe Dwinell, the reporter, earlier, and he was talking about in the obits, clear omission of any references to Neil Entwistle or his family. What does that say to you, Wendy?
WENDY MURPHY, FORMER PROSECUTOR: You know, it screams at me, as I think it does to everybody, Rita, that the family thinks he did it, and that‘s their entitlement. I hope no one uses it against them. They obviously know things we don‘t know because it takes a lot to exclude from both obituaries the name of the father and the name of the husband.
So—and I think it also tells us something about what law enforcement is thinking about. Even though Joe—and good for him—doesn‘t want to hamper the investigation by saying anything, he knows, and I know because I‘ve worked in that office, that law enforcement and the DA‘s office, they share some information with the family. So for the family to omit him from the obit, omit him from any mention at their press conference, it suggests to me that at least the prosecutors are not dissuading them from the notion that, in fact, Neil Entwistle is guilty.
COSBY: Vito, what do you say? That certainly is a blaring omission, huh?
VITO COLUCCI, PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR: Oh, definitely. I mean, this—this case is getting stranger by the day, Rita. I wouldn‘t count on seeing this individual back for these funerals. I think he got over to England. His father is very well known and has some power over there, probably hooked him up with a good attorney.
But you know, one thing we‘re missing out here, too, the people that have gone through that house, the police and these other people have gone in there and gone into that bedroom. Imagine a good defense attorney, if this Entwistle gets arrested?
COSBY: For a contaminated crime scene, Vito?
COLUCCI: Well, not only that, they‘re going to say to the officers, Now, explain this to me. You were in that bedroom. You could not see anybody in the bed. Maybe there wasn‘t any bodies in the bed at that time, they‘re going to say to this fellow, you know? And that‘s what‘s going to happen in this case. So there‘s a lot of problems. Everything‘s circumstantial, obviously, in this case. They better have a preponderance of circumstantial evidence to go to the drawing board and get a warrant here.
MURPHY: But Rita—Rita, let me...
(CROSSTALK)
COSBY: Wendy, I think the big thing is when did he leave, too? We still don‘t know if he booked right before or after the time of death.
COLUCCI: Rita, I can‘t understand why we haven‘t heard of when this plane flight was.
COSBY: Yes, we don‘t. I know. That is really interesting. Wendy?
MURPHY: Well, there have been reports, I can‘t confirm them, that he left Friday night.
(CROSSTALK)
COSBY: ... too.
MURPHY: It‘s not confirmed, but I think that‘s what people are saying. And somebody reported that they actually have seen the flight plan or whatever you call it, the list that the passengers‘ names are on, and have suggested, anyway, publicly, at least in some news accounts, that he did leave Friday night. And the speculation is that she was killed Friday afternoon. Remember, they were laying fully clothed in a bed, probably taking a nap, like some mothers do with their little babies.
But I have to defend the police about something. You know, they did go into the house for a wellbeing check. They didn‘t see the bodies. But there was a big comforter covering them. And remember, the police didn‘t have a warrant to go into the house and search. They couldn‘t snoop around. It would have been against the law. It would have been unconstitutional for them to do that. All they were allowed to do was walk in and look around and yell their names. Then they have to go. The police did the right thing, and nobody can shame them. And the defense may try to make something of it, but it‘s not going to go anywhere.
COSBY: And Vito, how bad does it look that this guy hasn‘t rushed back? I mean, first of all, his wife and kid are dead, and then he‘s not rushing back to the funeral? I mean, come on!
COLUCCI: Yes, well, we know that, Rita. That‘s—there‘s a laundry list of reasons here now. I mean, he‘s gone. As far as we know, he didn‘t even make any phone calls, OK? The doors were locked. The bodies are almost laid out in a lovingly way in the house, in this bed, OK? There‘s money problems. There‘s porn issues here. There‘s a laundry list of different things over here. And I‘d be very surprised if this guy comes back. I think last week, when we were hearing this good rapport between him and the police, I think that suddenly stopped, that‘s for sure.
COSBY: Yes, sounds like he‘s not cooperating with anybody, which is very, very fishy. Both of you, thanks so much. We appreciate it.
And coming up, everybody, a lot more ahead tonight. A mother and father join me with a passionate plea for help to find their daughter. They tell me why they‘re taking the case now nationwide. That and a lot more is coming up tonight.
Still ahead: What would you do to the man you believe molested your child?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You are a rapist. You raped my son!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: A shouting match caught on tape between a former priest and a hoard of accusers. Tonight, an alleged victim joins me live.
And shocking details in the search for Natalee Holloway. Find out why the FBI is not taking special search dogs to Aruba, and why once again they blame the island‘s investigators.
And for the first time, LIVE AND DIRECT takes you underground into that massive smuggling tunnel. Tonight, the shocking proof of how far crooks are willing to go to sneak into the U.S. The pictures are amazing. They‘re coming up.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COSBY: Two Florida parents are making a desperate plea tonight for your help to find their missing daughter. Twenty-four -year-old Jennifer Kesse was reported missing last Tuesday when she did not show up for work. So far, one of the only clues police have found is her car. It was less than a mile away from her apartment complex in Orlando, Florida.
Joining us now are Jennifer‘s parents, Drew and Joyce Kesse. Joyce, let me start with you. When was the last time you talked to your daughter? And what was her mood like?
JOYCE KESSE, MOTHER OF JENNIFER KESSE: I spoke with her Monday morning, while we were both driving to work, and she was very upbeat. She had just returned from St. Croix from a vacation, and was just excited, telling me about the island and, you know, was—but you know, just great and just, like, Oh, God, I got to go to work.
COSBY: You know, Drew, was there anything that signaled anything unusual to you, that maybe she would run away or take off for a week? Is there anything in her background that she would do that?
DREW KESSE, FATHER OF JENNIFER KESSE: No, nothing in her background at all. She loves her job. She‘s driven, had recently received a promotion, had recently bought her very first condominium, just really excited about things.
COSBY: What did she tell you, Drew, about her vacation, too? It sounds like she had a wonderful time in the Caribbean. Who did she go with? Was there any—is there anything—tip there?
DREW KESSE: She had gone with her boyfriend and another family to St. Croix, and she absolutely loved it. It was the first time she had the opportunity to be in the islands, and she thought it was just a great experience and was looking to go back.
COSBY: And Joyce, what was the relationship she had with her boyfriend? I know he was one of the last folks she talked to, as well, on the phone.
JOYCE KESSE: They‘ve been dating for a little over a year. And we‘ve had many opportunities to spend time with him, and he‘s just a great guy. He‘s a great guy.
COSBY: You know, your daughter‘s car was found. Tell us again. I thin that this is very important. It was found very close to her apartment. And also, dogs that the authorities use picked up a scent, right? Tell us about that, Joyce.
JOYCE KESSE: You know, we just can‘t fathom what happened. Honestly, we‘re baffled.
DREW KESSE: The dogs picked up a scent, but honestly, you know, we weren‘t privy to exactly what happened with that. And you know, the investigation is still going on, and the police are doing great.
COSBY: You know, Drew, we were hearing that maybe it picked up a scent by the car, even going back to the apartment. But car was, what, a mile from the apartment. What is that area like where the car was found? Is there anything to tip you off to something that could be in that area, Drew?
DREW KESSE: Well, again, it was very close to her apartment. It was one of the routes that she could take to work. So you know, it was traveled many times by her. But there‘s also many other ways she goes to work.
COSBY: You know, I understand we‘ve some video, too, that you shared with us of when your daughter was very young, beautiful as—she‘s gorgeous now, but a beautiful 10-year-old.
DREW KESSE: She was gorgeous then, too.
COSBY: Yes, she absolutely was. What was she like? Tell us what‘s so special about your daughter, Drew and Joyce, both of you.
JOYCE KESSE: You know, she has always been just her own person, very creative, very imaginative. Her and her best friend used to pretend to be broadcasters and just loved dress-up. And it was just—it was just...
DREW KESSE: They also loved to baby—you know, she loved to baby-sit. She just loved other people. And really smart, very strong-willed, extremely strong-willed little girl and young lady.
JOYCE KESSE: And she, as a matter of fact, actually, would volunteer in a nursing home from a very early age because a dear family friend worked in a nursing home. And she just—she‘s just always been caring and compassionate.
DREW KESSE: And what she wants, she set her sights on. She knows how to get it, and she really reaches for it.
COSBY: Now, both of you, if anyone out there has any information or knows anything, what do you want to say to the folks out there tonight, if there is someone at home, as we put up the tip line again, 1-800-423-TIPS? There‘s a $115,000 reward. But both of you, if there‘s someone out there who has any clues, what would you want to say to them? You‘ve got an audience here, a national audience.
DREW KESSE: Well, first of all, nothing‘s too trivial, you know, nothing‘s too little to know about. Give a call to the crime line—anonymous. You don‘t have to tell your name, or what have you. Just give, you know, a call to the crime line. And whoever has taken her or person or persons, you know, you got something to do, just leave her somewhere. Whatever you‘re doing, you know, go do it somewhere else. Just simply leave her and go on. And you know, I don‘t know what you‘re into, but take it somewhere else. Just leave Jennifer safely for us.
COSBY: Well, both of you, I hope you get some answers. I hope it helps getting the word out. Anything we can do, we will do.
JOYCE KESSE: Thank you.
COSBY: Thank you very much.
DREW KESSE: Thank you, Rita.
JOYCE KESSE: Thank you very much.
COSBY: Thank you.
And tonight, we‘ve got some late-breaking details in the case of Natalee Holloway‘s investigation. The Holloway family attorney met with Aruba‘s deputy police chief and the island‘s prosecutor today. There are also plans for the three to meet again tomorrow.
Meanwhile, the FBI is refusing to send cadaver dogs to Aruba to help in the latest search of the sand dunes. The reason why? The Aruban police won‘t say who tipped them of to start searching the dunes two weeks ago. They won‘t share the information with the FBI.
LIVE AND DIRECT tonight is Natalee‘s mom, Beth Holloway Twitty. And also here is Tim Miller with Texas Equusearch.
Beth, first of all, you know, how outraged are you that Aruban police won‘t even give it to authorities? This is the FBI.
BETH HOLLOWAY TWITTY, NATALEE‘S MOTHER: Yes, I mean, Rita, it‘s just
I just don‘t get it. Why won‘t they seek out their help? I mean, just disclose who these witnesses are that have come forward, and you know, let‘s do a coordinated search effort. I mean, the sand dunes, they started
you know, they attempted this search, what—what is now, two weeks ago, Rita, and it‘s obvious that they cannot do it without some help. So I don‘t—for the life of me, I don‘t have any idea why.
COSBY: Yes, it‘s outrageous not to share the information, especially with authorities. You know, Beth, I want to show—we had Jossy Mansur of “El Diario” newspaper—I asked what—what this tip this, and this is—this is what he, at least, had to say about where he thinks that tip is coming from.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOSSY MANSUR, MANAGING EDITOR, “DIARIO”: In the last month, the police were very busy talking to many, many friends of Joran‘s that they found of interest. And one of them apparently gave them some very, very reliable information that they‘ve been acting on. That‘s why they‘ve been searching over at the dunes behind the lighthouse and also on the ocean, searching for a fish trap.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: Beth, have you gotten any indication how credible this is? You know, the folks in Aruba are sending messages to us that they seem to put some stock in it, that it‘s certainly worth looking into.
TWITTY: No, really nothing other than that, Rita. I mean, I just can‘t imagine, though, this—there still seems to be a push towards the sand dunes. So I just keep thinking there has to be some credible source. And you know, maybe someone has come forward for the $250,000 reward for information. And you know, but it just—gosh, I just don‘t know why they don‘t move forward on it, Rita.
COSBY: It is. It‘s outrageous, especially not to share that with—again, with the federal authorities. You know, Beth, I know your attorney, John Q. Kelly, is in Aruba now. He met with the deputy police chief, Gerold Dompig. He also met with the prosecutor. How did those meetings go? And I understand he met with them today, he‘s going to meet with them again tomorrow.
TWITTY: Well, I think they went well. You know, I don‘t know what information was discussed during these meetings. I think he has a meeting again with the prosecuting attorney in the morning. So—but you know, Rita, I‘m just grateful that, you know, he is able to get in there and at least get a line of communication so at least someone from the United States side knows what‘s going on.
COSBY: Are you getting a sense that it‘s positive, that there seems to be some progress? I mean, Dompig was on our show—you know this. He said, The three boys are guilty as hell. I just have to prove it. He seemed like he was trying to go after the truth, at least in some shape or form.
TWITTY: Yes. Well, John Kelly didn‘t give me any details of what they discussed. They just—you know, I just glad, though, that he met with them, and I‘m sure he obtained some information that, you know, he just probably cannot disclose at this time.
COSBY: I agree with you that it‘s great that he‘s down there. You know, Tim, the cadaver dogs—now the FBI is saying it‘s not going to send the cadaver dogs because it‘s not getting this information from Aruban authorities. How critical are cadaver dogs, do you think, to the search, to really...
TIM MILLER, TEXAS EQUUSEARCH: Well, I don‘t know if they‘re...
(CROSSTALK)
MILLER: I don‘t know that they‘re that critical, if you want to know the truth. I mean, there‘s other things we can do, that people can do. And we can certainly do them. I mean, we‘ve got some...
COSBY: Like what?
MILLER: We‘ve got proven cadaver dogs our own self, and we don‘t need to know where the lead came from. We can take them there, and we can take the ground penetration units there. And I promise you, in three or four days, we can find something in the sand dunes or clear them, so...
COSBY: Are you planning on going down there, Tim, and using that equipment?
MILLER: Oh, I‘m going to be back in Aruba in two weeks, and we‘re going to be doing stuff in the water. If the sand dunes have not been searched, we‘re taking our ground penetration units and we‘ll go ahead and do the sand dunes. We‘ll take the dogs, too.
So they don‘t have to withhold where the information comes from, from us. I mean, we‘re volunteers. We‘ll go over there. You know, we‘ve got some equipment that‘s probably as good as anybody in the nation. So you know, our offer stands. One thing is a promise. We will be back in Aruba in two weeks.
And you know, it just upsets me more and more every day, Rita, about not sharing information and different things. And I don‘t even know if we need them people in Aruba anymore. We just need to go over there, do our job, bring Natalee home and then let them make an arrest.
COSBY: Yes, it seems preposterous that they‘re not sharing it again with the feds. You know, Tim...
MILLER: Well, it‘s crazy. I think it‘s crazy.
COSBY: It is. It‘s—you know, it‘s a blockade, another blockade.
You know, Beth, you mentioned...
MILLER: There‘s always a new excuse...
COSBY: I was going to say, Beth...
MILLER: a new excuse every day.
COSBY: Beth, are you at, like, wits‘ end, going, Come on, give me a break?
TWITTY: Oh, I—you know, I just can‘t imagine, you know, a sovereign country acting—behaving this way. I mean, who in their right can send a loved one to the island of Aruba with them acting like this? I mean, it just doesn‘t make any sense, Rita, absolutely none.
COSBY: You know, another thing that doesn‘t make sense to a lot of people, Paul Van Der Sloot‘s in court today for a hearing on damages. We don‘t know what the result is because I know your attorney wasn‘t allowed inside. How are you going to feel, Beth, if he gets, you know, one cent for damages?
TWITTY: Well, you know, there‘s another frustrating, you know, part of this. You know, this—in a civil case like this, there should have been no reason for John Kelly to have been denied access in that hearing. And you know, I think that the judge or Paulus Van Der Sloot had set forward and it‘s probably who was instrumental in not having him in there.
So it just—you know, it‘s just everything just seems so underhanded to me. It‘s just—you know, if it was on—you know, up front and they didn‘t have anything to hide or be fearful of, you know, they would have allowed him in that courtroom. There was no reason why he could not have been in there.
COSBY: Yes, seem to be shutting the U.S. authorities and your representatives out at every turn, which (INAUDIBLE). We will stay on it, Beth. Please keep us posted on what happens also at the meeting tomorrow. And Tim, good luck with your search. Thank you very much, both of you.
MILLER: Thanks, Rita.
COSBY: Thank you.
And still ahead, everybody, for the first time tonight, we‘re taking you LIVE AND DIRECT into the largest drug-smuggling tunnel ever discovered, eight football fields long. And tonight, we‘re giving you a tour down below.
And next, a shocking scene as a father accuses a defrocked priest of molesting his son. The whole dramatic confrontation is caught on tape. A man who says he was abused by that very same priest is going to join us live.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JAMES HANLEY, DEFROCKED PRIEST: You‘re a liar!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jim, you are sick.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You‘re a serial child rapist.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You‘re sick.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You‘re a pedophile.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You are a rapist. You raped my son when he was 9 years old.
HANLEY: You‘re a liar.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you admitted it, and I have it on tape!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: A dramatic and heated confrontation, as you can see, all caught on tape. Defrocked priest James Hanley tried to stop his accusers and their families from handing out fliers in his current neighborhood in New Jersey. Hanley has admitted to abusing 15 boys from 1968 to 1982. But when the two sides came face to face, it led to this angry and very emotional exchange.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You didn‘t give him beer, cigarettes, pornography?
HANLEY: I did not. I did not.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You did. You did it to me and two other brothers.
You did it to my dead brothers.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And you did it to three of my sons, James Hanley.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You are sick. You are a sick man!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: And we‘re joined now by Paul Steidler. He‘s one of James Hanley‘s accusers who was at that confrontation.
Paul, first of all, what was it like to have this man confront you after what you say he did to you?
PAUL STEIDLER, ALLEGED ABUSE VICTIM: Well, Rita, it was, I think for many of us, a very healing experience, because the world got to see what a demon this man is, what a depraved evil human being he is. We went into his new neighborhood, in Paterson, New Jersey, where there are children all around the place. We were trying to get the word out about what a danger this man continues to be to children. And he helped our cause very much in that respect.
COSBY: You bet. What did he do to you, Paul? What happened to you?
STEIDLER: In my case, I was 14 years old. And he gave me alcohol, pornography, engaged me in some very inappropriate conversations. I did not—you know, I was not touched on the genitals to him, but the acts he committed against me are crimes in the state of New Jersey for which he should have gone to jail.
And, you know, it caused some severe psychological or some difficult psychological problems. And this was done at a time when my own father was sick and dying of cancer. So he used his position in the church for his own depraved sexual thrills, if you will.
COSBY: And you know, it‘s incredible, too, because this guy—as you pointed out—is a priest, totally, like, you know, taking advantage of his situation. And today, I was outraged. He was making every excuse in the book. And I want to play, you know, just what he talked about, his alcoholism, his problems, giving every excuse for his bad behavior.
STEIDLER: Right.
COSBY: Take a listen.
STEIDLER: Sure.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HANLEY: I‘m an alcoholic. I‘m a manic depressive. I suffered from diseases. I‘m a psychotic. And a psychotic does strange things sometimes, you know.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: You know, Paul, when you hear this, is this a man who seemed like he still isn‘t admitting everything he did? He did admit to abusing 15 boys.
STEIDLER: He admitted to abusing 15 boys. And in fact, the total is much higher than that. This is a man who is sick because he is evil. His acts of abusing children—he was a very patient hunter in going after us in New Jersey.
He was very systematic. He knows what he was doing. It was very calculated. It‘s not something that, you know, impulsively happened from time to time.
He is so sick, Rita, because he‘s evil. He is not evil because he‘s sick. The man has no control over his urges. He is a systematic predator. He‘s very good at it. He‘s fooled law enforcement folks. He‘s fooled parents, and he‘s harmed many, many children.
He continues to be a danger where he is in Paterson, New Jersey. And that‘s why so many of us went to his neighborhood to inform folks about the danger this guy poses.
COSBY: And, Paul, I want to show you a little more of the confrontation earlier today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JAMES HANLEY, DEFROCKED PRIEST: You‘re a liar!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jim, you are sick.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You‘re a serial child rapist.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You‘re sick.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You‘re a pedophile.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You are a rapist. You raped my son when he was 9 years old.
HANLEY: You‘re a liar.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you admitted it, and I have it on tape!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: You know, I understand that a lot of people in the neighborhood didn‘t realize his background, Paul, and even let their kids play with this , right? They weren‘t aware of his background.
STEIDLER: Yes, in fact, the “Bergen Record” reported that a man who has three boys invited Hanley over on New Year‘s Eve to his house. And Hanley was trying to ingratiate himself with the children, giving out balloons and things along those lines.
And, you know, Rita, it‘s very unfortunate that those of us who have been victimized by priests have to be the ones going out to spread the word about this. The bishops and the hierarchy could and should—they know that Jim Hanley is an admitted serial pedophile. Why have they not put together a national database about people like him who are all out there? Why haven‘t they notified the good people of Paterson that there‘s a threat within their midst?
COSBY: And what do they say? Why haven‘t they done those things, Paul?
STEIDLER: They will not give you—they haven‘t given an answer that I understand. They say they‘ll look at it, they‘ll study it, but they take no action on it. They have a moral responsibility to take action on it, a moral duty to do so.
And the church knows who these people are without a doubt. We‘re not talking about cases where there‘s any gray area here. These are people who the church has paid out a lot of money because of the crimes that these guys have committed, where these guys have admitted their crimes to the bishops.
So the church knows who these folks are. And they‘re not reaching out to get them there. There are many other Jim Hanleys out there in many other communities.
And that‘s why we need the church to put together a central database on this, because these guys are not on the sex offender registries. They were never turned in, because the bishop said they would handle the problem. And what they did is instead transfer them to different parishes.
That‘s why Jim Hanley never went to jail. That‘s why there are many people like Jim Hanley who are still out there and about in the communities today. And we need the church to come clean and say who those people are and where they are.
COSBY: And real quick, are you going to follow him the rest of his life?
STEIDLER: We will watch him wherever he goes. You know, so long as he is able to move about—and you saw yesterday, someone who is very vigorous, someone who is very determined, we‘re going to follow him wherever he goes, and we‘re going to let parents and children know about his presence so that we lessen the odds that he‘ll be able to abuse many more children, as he has so many in the past.
COSBY: You bet. And he‘s even admitted, again, to 15. Those are just the ones that he admits to. Paul, thank you very much. We appreciate you being here.
STEIDLER: Thank you, Rita.
COSBY: Thank you.
And still ahead, everybody, he‘s behind bars for tax evasion, but tonight, the family of “Survivor” winner Richard Hatch says he‘s being treated like a death row inmate. Why is he in solitary confinement?
And next, LIVE & DIRECT is taking you on the first tour of the massive drug tunnel discovery under the U.S.-Mexican border. Plus, tonight we‘re getting a glimpse at who built this. It is incredible. We‘re going to show it to you next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COSBY: Four Iraqis are under arrest in Mexico after trying to sneak into the U.S. The four were found on board a bus in Navajoa, which is about 400 miles south of the U.S. border.
A growing number of Iraqis have recently been arrested trying to enter the U.S. illegally. But so far, none has been clearly linked to terrorism.
Tonight, LIVE & DIRECT is taking you underground into the longest smuggling drug-smuggling tunnel ever discovered underneath the U.S.-Mexican border. Agents discovered the 2,400-foot-long tunnel last week. It spans from Tijuana, Mexico, to Otay Mesa, California.
The first person arrested in connection to the operation also appeared in court today. He‘s a Mexican citizen and is charged with conspiracy to possess and intent to distribute more than 2,000 pounds of marijuana.
Meanwhile, so much focus is on that enormous tunnel itself. NBC‘s Michael Okwu joins me LIVE & DIRECT to take us underground.
Mike, what did it look like? It must have been stunning.
MICHAEL OKWU, NBC NEWS CORRESPONDENT: It was stunning, remarkable. You just couldn‘t describe it. You had to see it for yourself. And in fact, we‘re going to show it to you.
U.S. authorities do not know how many other individuals, by the way, Rita, are involved in this case. But what they‘re fairly certain of is that this tunnel, located just north of the Mexican border, is so sophisticated it must have been built by a major drug cartel. Here‘s a look.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
FRANK MARWOOD, SPECIAL AGENT IN CHARGE, ICE: We‘re going to walk in now to where the tunnel entrance was made within the United States...
OKWU (voice-over): Our guide is Frank Marwood, a deputy special agent with the Immigration and Customs Enforcement, better known as ice. Marwood does work undercover. And to protect his identity, we promised not to show his face.
MARWOOD: ... will see the plate that was actually covering the tunnel.
OKWU: At the tunnel‘s threshold, Marwood shows us a specially-designed slab of flood tile on wheels the traffickers used to conceal the entrance. And then we descend.
MARWOOD: So I‘m going to go down now, and you can follow on the way down.
OKWU (on-screen): We‘ve just descended a shaft, which is about six feet high and about four-and-a-half feet wide. And it is very tight in here.
(voice-over): The walls here, a resilient combination of rock and dense clay. We are about a half-mile from the Mexican border. The tunnel itself runs 2,400 feet, about the length of eight football fields to the other side. In some sections, it is 90 feet below the surface.
As we traveled deeper, Marwood describes this sophisticate infrastructure, a ventilation system, water pumps, even electricity.
MARWOOD: This electrical system here, as it runs through, is actually the electrical system that was utilized by the smugglers. It runs all the way back into Mexico. The power originates from the Republic of Mexico.
You can see the amount of electrical cabling that was on the wall.
They were well-prepared to go as far as they needed to go.
OKWU: Ropes attached to the walls helped the smugglers transport the drugs underground. U.S. officials estimate that smugglers built this tunnel in a year-and-a-half. Last year, U.S. and Mexican authorities seized more than two tons of marijuana here.
A little more than a quarter-mile from the border, some light, but we don‘t go any further.
MARWOOD: Just the water gets deeper and deeper as you go in.
OKWU (on-screen): We‘re making our way out of the tunnel now, and you can get the sense of how determined the smugglers must have been, because it is not necessarily easy to walk up and down this passageway.
(voice-over): The longest, most sophisticated tunnel government agents ever have ever seen on the southern border, and now one of 22 such tunnels unearthed by authorities since 9/11.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
OKWU: And government agents say the existence of tunnels like this one is proof that their efforts to combat drug trafficking above the ground is working, Rita.
COSBY: You know, Michael, how do they build this? Was it by hand, by machine? You said a year-and-a-half, but what do they do it with?
OKWU: A lot of speculation with that. In fact, what they used was a very sophisticated pulley system. So they are surmising—that is, government officials are surmising that what they did is they basically dug this thing up by hand, put it in pails and other sort of machinery, and then just used a pulley system to get that dirt out to the other side and then just leave it in dump trucks, which were situated on either side of the tunnel—Rita?
COSBY: And, Mike, what‘s amazing, too, is when you showed this—you get in out a warehouse. It was pretty innocuous, right, on both sides of the tunnel, looking like it‘s just a normal spot, right, for the entranceway?
OKWU: That‘s exactly right. What you don‘t see here is the fact that we‘re in sort of a wasteland. It‘s kind of an industrial complex, lots of big buildings and other warehouses.
And it just looks like there‘s activity going back and forth in all of these other buildings. You would never suspect that something was going on here. But what tipped off authorities was both on the Mexican side and here on the U.S. side, there was a lot of activity which suddenly leveled off. And people wondered what was going on there until they started getting a look.
In fact, Mexican officials on the other side in Mexico saying that they discovered their tunnel first. They collaborated with U.S. officials. Officials sort of dug in here and were able to find the tunnel finally—
Rita?
COSBY: Really incredible. Thank you very much for that tour, Michael. We appreciate it. Amazing stuff. Thank you.
OKWU: You got it.
COSBY: Thank you.
And there‘s a lot more coming up here on MSNBC tonight. Let‘s check in with Joe Scarborough with a preview of “SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY,” starting at the top of the hour.
Joe, what do you got?
JOE SCARBOROUGH, MSNBC HOST: Rita, we got a packed show. I mean, we‘re going to be talking about the Mexican border also, but we‘re also going to be talking to a reporter who actually got documents from the Department of Homeland Security that talked about how international gangs are planning attacks on U.S. towns so they can control parts of the border.
Also, very disturbing that these international gangs are also planning to smuggle explosives across the border and sell them, actually, in one case, probably to an Iraqi national living in the San Francisco area.
Also, Jerry Springer‘s going to be on to talk about the Oprah scandal, talking about how lying pays. I mean, you look at this James Frey guy who got disemboweled by Oprah on Friday. Well, his book‘s still number one on the “New York Times” bestseller list. He‘s doing great on Amazon.
The publishing industry and Frey making a lot of money. Also talking about making a lot of money, “American Idol.” We‘ve got Paula Abdul, who‘s now going to be talking with Dr. Phil about how to get a date. We‘ve got Corey Clark, who‘s going to be a guest on our show, who‘s going to telling us—of course, he‘s the one who was possibly involved with Paula last year, suggesting that Paula has absolutely no problems when it comes to getting dates.
(LAUGHTER)
Rita, that and much more on “SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY,” straight ahead.
COSBY: And it looks like a really interesting show, Joe. Thank you.
We‘ll definitely be tuning in. We appreciate it.
SCARBOROUGH: Thanks, Rita.
COSBY: And still ahead, everybody, tonight Richard Hatch is sitting in a Massachusetts jail cell for tax evasion. But his sister says the reality TV star of “Survivor” is being treated like a death row inmate. She is going to join me next.
And you will not believe what is inside this bag that was found floating down a river. Wait until you see them open it. It is shocking, and it‘s coming up next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RICHARD LEONARD, JUROR IN RICHARD HATCH TRIAL: When he actually was handed that million dollars, he probably felt as though he was deserving of all of it, which would be human nature and, of course, wrongly so. And I think his human nature took over and to his own demise.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COSBY: Tonight, a LIVE & DIRECT exclusive. For the first time, the sister of “Survivor” winner Richard Hatch is speaking out, shocked and outraged at how she says her brother is being treated in prison. Hatch was found guilty on three counts of failing to pay taxes on his one-million-dollar “Survivor” prize. The judge called Hatch a flight risk and locked him up immediately.
Richard Hatch‘s sister, Kristin, is on the phone with me tonight. And also with us is Bob Paquette. He‘s a jury from the Richard Hatch trial.
We should mentioned we were expecting to talk to Richard‘s partner tonight, but he was unable to join us, and he hopes to do so at a later date.
Kristin, yes, how is your brother doing? I know you‘ve talked to him.
How is he holding up?
KRISTIN HATCH, RICHARD HATCH‘S BROTHER: He‘s doing the best he can under the circumstances, Rita. He‘s currently being locked up for 23 hours a day and being allowed to leave the cell for one hour. It seems like more of a punishment to me than what his sentence was for.
COSBY: Yes, why? I mean, that seems awfully severe, Kristin. Is it for his own security? Or what‘s the reason such the stringent rules against him?
HATCH: They‘re saying it‘s for his own security. That‘s the message that we‘re getting. And they‘re waiting for something to open up.
COSBY: How tough is it for him, Kristin? I mean, this is a guy who -
obviously, a lot of loved fans, very colorful character. How tough is it for him to deal with 23 hours behind bars?
HATCH: I think it‘s tough, Rita, but I think it‘s exactly what Andrew Reich threatened him with in the grand jury hearing six months prior to their trial. He told Rich he didn‘t care about the dime of the money that Rich owed. He just wanted to see him in jail, and he got his wish.
COSBY: You think the prosecutors were out to get him, Kristin?
HATCH: They clearly stated it in the grand jury hearing in Washington, six months prior to his trial, when he asked again what the figure was that he owed and how could he pay it.
COSBY: You know, we have the contract, too, that we got from his attorney. And it says basically in it that they‘re supposed to pay taxes, they‘re supposed to do a number of those things. Do you think he really did, though, believe that the producers were supposed to take care of him, because he was—you know, he did see some things that he thought were questionable on the show?
HATCH: I‘m not sure what exactly he saw that was questionable, but I know for a fact that Rich believed that they were supposed to pay part or all of the taxes. I sat next to Rich. I can‘t tell you the number of times he was making phone calls in my presence to Mark Burnett, asking for clarity, leaving a message with someone. I don‘t know who was on the other end, but I do know that that was happening years ago, before any of the hype from the IRS. I know he was searching for answers back then.
COSBY: So he was trying to reach out and get some solutions, at least get some understanding?
HATCH: Absolutely, he was.
COSBY: You know, Bob, let me bring you in. Why did the jury find him guilty? Because we‘ve heard from a number of jurors. They seemed pretty sympathetic towards him and saying maybe he didn‘t understand everything.
BOB PAQUETTE, JUROR IN RICHARD HATCH TRIAL: Well, that‘s true. We saw the contract. We looked through the whole thing. And there were two areas of the contract that were very confusing to us. And we took that into consideration.
But then when it got to—there were other things. I mean, we all have heard of the IRS red flags, and I think winning a million dollars on national TV is a big red flag for the IRS. And doing that, you should look back at your own finances at home and make sure everything‘s in order.
And, you know, he still owed $28,000 in rental income. He still owed $25,000 he received a check for charity. And, you know, that was still income that he didn‘t claim on his taxes. And that‘s 2000 alone.
You come into 2001. There was miscellaneous 1099s that he didn‘t claim. And there was also a vehicle he didn‘t claim and activity that he had—income that he had from a radio talk show. So that was for 2001.
COSBY: Bob, what was the mood like in the jury room? What was the mood like in the jury room?
PAQUETTE: It was—you know, we all had a heart. I mean, that‘s why on all of the fraud charges, we knew his intent was a good intent in regards to the charities. But when it came to the taxes, the mood was different.
It‘s like, you know, $50,000 worth of income is a lot to some people. And not to claim anything, and that‘s what kind of got the people to say, you know, what? You know, fine, maybe he was confused with the contract. But when it came down to the income from other incomes that he had, and he didn‘t claim any of it, that‘s where we were pretty much decided.
COSBY: And, Kristin, let me bring you in, because sentencing‘s scheduled for April 28th. Is your brother worried about what‘s ahead for him, given sort of the tone of what‘s been happening now?
PAQUETTE: I would assume that he is worried with what‘s ahead. And with what Bob just said, I understand completely where they came up with their verdict. Unfortunately, the seven counts that were tacked on, I think, took away from the three counts that his defense really could have focused on. And instead, it was just a nightmare.
COSBY: Well, Kristin, thank you so much for being with us. We appreciate it. Our prayers are, of course, are with your brother. He‘s got a lot of fans all over the place.
PAQUETTE: Thanks, Rita.
COSBY: Thank you so much.
And, Bob, thank you, too, for being with us.
PAQUETTE: You‘re welcome.
COSBY: Still ahead, everybody, a shocking find inside a bag that was floating down the river. We‘ll show you next what they found.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
COSBY: Tonight, new details about an unbelievable find inside a bag that was floating down a river. It was a baby. Take a look.
A two-month-old girl was rescued Saturday afternoon, pulled out of a river in Brazil. A small wooden board apparently kept it from sinking. Her mother is now accused of attempted homicide and reportedly told police that she was not in the psychological condition to raise the baby.
The girl, however, is now out of the hospital. And the good news, she‘s doing OK. Also, people are apparently lining up to adopt the baby. So there are some great news coming out of this tonight.
And that does it for me on LIVE & DIRECT tonight. I‘m Rita Cosby.
Joe Scarborough with “SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY” starts right now—Joe?
JOE SCARBOROUGH, MSNBC HOST: Thanks so much, Rita.
Right now in SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY, terrorists smuggling bombs over the Mexican border.
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