'The Last Word with Lawrence O'Donnell' for Tuesday, October 21st, 2014
Read the transcript to the Tuesday show
THE LAST WORD WITH LAWRENCE O`DONNELL
October 21, 2014
Guest: Zack Beauchamp, Scott Stossel, Mitch Matorin
LAWRENCE O`DONNELL, MSNBC HOST: Good evening, Rachel. Thank you very
RACHEL MADDOW, "TRMS" HOST: Appreciate it. Thanks.
O`DONNELL: Well, control of the Senate just might come down to that
independent Senate candidate in Kansas who has never said how he will vote
for majority leader.
And we will also take a look tonight at the most likely way your digital
security could be violated by someone you`re living with.
But first, three teenage American girls who may have run away from home to
join the Islamic State.
Tonight, three teenagers from Colorado are back in their homes in Colorado
after apparently trying to travel to Syria to join the Islamic State in
Syria. Officials say it`s an example of the system working. Parents
realizing that their daughters were missing and sounding the alarm in time
for authorities to stop the girls en route.
Here`s NBC`s justice correspondent Pete Williams.
PETE WILLIAMS, NBC NEWS JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It`s the kind
of thing U.S. officials have been fearing since ISIS began an outpouring of
recruiting propaganda in English. U.S. and German authorities say an
apparent plan by three American teenage girls to get to Syria ended here at
the Frankfurt airport over the weekend.
Tipped off by the parents, German airport security stopped the girls and
told they were wanted back home. Officials say the three left Friday on a
flight from Denver through Chicago, then Frankfurt, with tickets to fly on
to Istanbul and Turkey.
U.S. officials say they believe the girls intended to go from there to
Syria and join up with jihadists, perhaps ISIS, perhaps another groups.
Arrests for people in the U.S. trying to help terrorists are three times
higher this year than they were a year ago.
Attorney General Eric Holder said recently that a huge concern is the
radicalization of people in the U.S. via the Internet.
ERIC HOLDER, ATTORNEY GENERAL: They`re in front of computer screens and
who for whatever reason somehow get activated and decide as lone wolves to
take action. That`s what keeps me up at night.
O`DONNELL: Voice of America reports that two of the girls are sister, ages
15 and 16 and are of Somalia descent. The third girl of Sudanese descent.
According to the BBC, this summer in Manchester, England, 16-year-old twin
sisters ran away to join the Islamic State in Syria.
The Islamic State reportedly has two all female brigades that primarily
serve in a policing role, making sure civilian women are in compliance with
the Islamic State`s strict rules.
Joining me now is Evan Kohlmann, NBC News terrorism analyst. He spent more
than a decade tracking al Qaeda and other terrorist organizations.
And Zack Beauchamp, a world correspondent for Vox.com, who has recently
reported about the recruitment of women into the Islamic State.
So, Zack, you`re ahead of the news anyway on this kind of story. What are
the details in this story that stand out to you?
ZACK BEAUCHAMP, VOX.COM CONTRIBUTOR: I think it`s the fact that these
women -- or maybe girls, I should say, because it sounds like they were
high school age, found that by finding ISIS content and propaganda online,
it seems like anyway, based on what we know so far, and going out and
deciding to join the group. The fact that after reading about the group,
they decided that this is something we want to be a part of indicates ISIS
is having some success tapping into discontent among younger Westerners and
Americans with their lives right now, and turning into a romantic radical
cause, and that`s the real concern about ISIS recruiting.
O`DONNELL: I want to read a portion of the Colorado police report. It`s a
runaway, the case that they`re talking about here. And this is before they
know where these girls are.
And it says the father stated that his two daughters were claiming they
were sick this morning and did not go to school. At approximately 10:30,
the two told him they were going to the library. He was at work at the
When he returned home this evening, they were still not home. One of his
daughter`s friends` parents came over after he got home and told him his
daughter was missing and that she had taken her passport and told the
father that he needed to check for his daughter`s passports as well.
The father stated that he checked and found that his daughter`s passports
were missing, along with $2,000 in cash. He has tried calling the
daughters` cell phones but she does not answer. Neither girl is homicidal
or suicidal. Neither is on medication. It`s unknown what clothes they
were wearing, but they both wear head scarves as part of their religion.
Evan Kohlmann, so here are these kids, who did something maybe all of us
have done. I certainly did. I claimed to be too sick to go to school one
day, and it wasn`t true. But in this case, they really had something else
EVAN KOHLMANN, NBC NEWS TERRORISM ANALYST: Yes. And you have to wonder
whether there were any other warning signs. It`s very sad that the parents
only realized at this point. And I think that it emphasizes the issue
here, that these people, these girls are not being radicalized by an imam
or a mosque or some radical Saudi-funded center. They`re being radicalized
by what they`re reading on the Internet.
So, it is kind of incumbent upon parents to make sure they understand what
their kids are looking at, because these -- and they`re kids. They are
kids, and they`re getting the idea that there is some grand adventure for
them out there. That they can become superheroes and celebrities and they
can right the wrongs of the universe by going out and joining these guys.
And it sounds great. It`s a great sale, it`s a great advertisement. But
once they get there, the reality is not like that.
There are two Austrian girls who are in their teens who went there to go
join ISIS. They sent letters back to their parents and said we`ll never
come home, we`re here forever. ISIS is the best.
Well, that didn`t last for very long. The latest reports we`ve got is that
these two girls are desperate to come home, and the sad part is that it`s
really not available to them. They`ve had their passports cancelled. If
they try to board a flight back to Austria, they`ll most likely be
arrested. And it creates a very problematic issue for us about what to do
with these girls, especially the ones who go there and realize that this is
O`DONNELL: Zach Beauchamp, again, there`s another page in the police
report, as it continues, when the girls come home eventually, as they did,
the police go to their homes, and this is the report filed then.
It says they arrived in Germany and stayed at the airport for an entire
day. They said that some sort of police force in the German airport
detained them and put them on a plane back to Denver. Once they arrived in
Denver, they were again detained by the FBI and were eventually released.
I asked them why they went to Germany and they said family and would not
elaborate on any other details about their trip.
Now, that might shock a lot of people, Zach, that the FBI spoke to these
girls, detained for a bit and then simply sent them home.
BEAUCHAMP: Well, I think that points to a key point of resilience in the
American resistant system to people who go abroad and want to join a group
like ISIS, which is that United States is hard to get into, right? We have
all of those oceans surrounding us. We have a lot of border checks at
airports, and all the security about this. So, a lot of people worry that
someone like these girls are going to go away, they`re going to come back
and plan a terrorist attack here.
The truth is, it`s really easy to catch people who have gone to join ISIS
and people like this. So, these girls are at home right now. They don`t
have the know-how to build a bomb or do anything like that if they`re under
parental supervision, and the FBI is watching them.
In this case, the system actually worked and it will probably in most
O`DONNELL: Evan, I want to go back to your point, which is so important,
about what happened to these kids who go over there dreaming of a certain
idealistic situation. They discover as kids will and many of us will in
many situations aren`t as good as we thought they might be. They might
want to change their minds and come back.
When we start revoking passports and all that sort of stuff and making it
more difficult for them to come back, are we -- are we making a bad
KOHLMANN: Look, it`s a risk that we face. It`s a very difficult problem,
because of the fact that we know that a high proportion of those who are
going to Syria, the fighters, foreign fighters, males, females alike, these
have folks that have dangerous intentions and would like to carry out
violence potentially here in the United States.
On the other hand, there has to be some form of de-radicalization. We
can`t simply lock up everybody. We have to try to de-radicalize people.
In the case of Shannon Conley (ph), who is another young woman here in
Colorado who`s arrested, trying to travel to join ISIS, again traveling
through Turkey, the FBI actually tried repeatedly to interview her and kind
of tell her, we know what you`re doing. You have to stop this or you will
go to jail.
The unfortunate part about Ms. Conley is, is that despite being repeatedly
interviewed by the FBI and warned what the consequences will be, she said,
"I don`t care, I`m still going there." And she did. The FBI just stopped
her on the plane in Denver.
It`s that kind of mentality that we`re dealing with. That`s really the
O`DONNELL: Zack Beauchamp, there`s an interesting piece this week
reporting that in Denmark, they are basically just welcoming former jihadi
fighters back into Denmark on the theory that if they`re coming back, if
they`re tired of the fight or if they`re coming back, we want to make them
like living here better than what they were just doing. We want to get
them back in, kind of de-brainwash them in their view.
BEAUCHAMP: Well, it`s an interesting approach. I think that it depends on
each individual case whether or not you think it`s going to work, right?
Some people decide that they want to do this for an adventure, and some
people become ideologically convinced that I`m -- I need to help tear down
the building blocks of the West. And you have to figure it out. You have
to manage these things on a case by case basis. It`s difficult and hard to
say exactly what the right policy is to do.
O`DONNELL: Evan, so we have a case here in the Colorado kids that we`re
talking about tonight where the parents surely should have done a better
job of getting a sense of what was going through their minds in this area,
but then once their girls were missing, I got to say, they responded
quickly and smartly.
KOHLMANN: Yes, they responded like responsible parents. I mean, that`s
what we expect of theme. If you have a child who you think is in trouble
and is potentially going to get themselves in a homicidal situation in a
foreign country, it`s not only your responsibility to your child, it`s your
responsibility to this country to make sure that you intervene.
I mean, a lot of these cases could be stopped if parents were more
proactive about making sure that kids understand what the consequences are.
And not to simply treat this kind of behavior as oh, it`s just a phase. If
your child is browsing suicide bombing videos on their computer, if they`re
watching beheadings and they`re laughing about it. These are things to
I mean, it`s not a joke. I wish it was. But there are a lot of these kids
who are headed over there, again, both male and female. And these are the
only warning signs there really are.
O`DONNELL: And, Zack, let`s assume for the moment that the parents are
very unlikely to catch them watching beheading videos on the video, but at
the dinner table talking about their believes, their values, and talking
about these news issues, talking about exactly about what the Islamic State
is doing. You would think that if they were having freer conversations
about that at the dinner table, they might pick up some threatening things,
some scary things possibly going through their daughters` minds.
BEAUCHAMP: It`s possible they could. On the other hand, sometimes it`s
difficult to distinguish between the ISIS radicalization and the way in
which young people often embrace radical ideas at that point as a form of
rebellion or a form of developing a more authentic identity, something
that, you know, seems to them like it`s important.
And parents are often very bad judges of how far kids are going to take
that. It`s difficult to say that there`s any one individual parent who you
can blame or say is doing the wrong thing or the right thing in these cases
or even that there`s a blueprint for how you figure out whether your kid is
going to join ISIS.
It`s not a thing to be paranoid about. It` part of being a good parent is
understanding when your kid is acting out and when your kid is at serious
risk and needs serious help from real authorities. And that`s a judgment
call each individual parent is going to have to make. That said, it`s not
worth getting paranoid about a spate of American children joining ISIS.
The numbers are astronomically as a percentage of American school kids.
O`DONNELL: Zach Beauchamp and Evan Kohlmann, thank you both very much for
joining us tonight.
KOHLMANN: Thank you.
O`DONNELL: Coming up, we`re going to have a Malala Yousufzai`s reaction to
these three girls being detained and sent back from their trip.
Also tonight, there`s a couple of Senate races all of this could come down
to. When we`re counting the votes on election night, it might all come
down to Kansas. That`s most dramatic possible scenario we could see.
Steve Kornacki will be here to tell us how we might get to that scenario.
And he will be at the big board, big election board with all the states to
And there is now, you should know this, an entire industry working on
trying to help people spy on you, people who are already very close to you
like, say, someone you`re living with. Maybe a spouse who`s interested in
exactly why you were a little late coming home tonight. There are apps
that are being designed specifically to track -- for spouses to track their
spouses. That`s coming up.
Today, Rwanda, which has not had a case of Ebola, announced that it will
screen U.S. and Spanish travelers who enter Rwanda for Ebola. That
decision comes after a New Jersey elementary school panicking over the
arrival of two students from Rwanda. The students are being kept home
voluntarily by their parents even though Rwanda has not had a single case
of Ebola, and it is 2,600 miles away from the nearest cases.
Rwanda has been denying entry of travelers from Guinea, Liberia and
Senegal, or Sierra Leone since the outbreak began in West Africa. It will
now require visitors from the U.S. and from Spain, which have both had
confirmed cases of Ebola to report their medical conditions to health
Up next, Steve Kornacki is here to tell us why it could all come down to
one independent Senate candidate on who ends up controlling the Senate.
O`DONNELL: With early voting already underway and two weeks to go under
the votes are counted, there was good news for Democrats today trying to
hold on to control of the United States Senate. Washington`s most
authoritative congressional election analyst Charles Cook said that
Republicans may now have to win eight seats instead of six to win control
of the Senate because of the possible loss of Republican Senate seats in
Kansas and Georgia. Republican Senator Pat Roberts and independent
candidate Greg Orman are statistically tied. And Democrat Michelle Nunn
leads Republican businessman David Perdue in Georgia by a point in the
First Lady Michelle Obama campaigned today for Al Franken in Minnesota and
Bruce Braley in Iowa, not Bailey, in Iowa.
The first lady joked about watching Bruce Braley`s name at a campaign
appearance earlier this month.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHELLE OBAMA, FIRST LADY: I got it wrong a couple of times, but I sort
of laughed at myself, because I thought, well, people should follow me home
because talk to Malia and Sasha. I never call them the right names. Like
you, who are you? I called Barack Bo. It never works out really well.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: In Kentucky, President Bill Clinton campaigned for the third
time with Alison Lundergan Grimes, while Hillary Clinton appeared with
Senator Mark Udall in Colorado.
And on Saturday, the Senate`s big gun, Senator Elizabeth Warren will travel
to New Hampshire to campaign once again against her old opponent Scott
NBC`s Chuck Todd moderated the debate between Scott Brown and Senator
Jeanne Shaheen in New Hampshire tonight.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHUCK TODD, NBC NEWS: You had two chances to run for the U.S. Senate in
Massachusetts in 2013 and 2014. Why not take those?
SCOTT BROWN (R-NH), SENATE CANDIDATE: Because I live here. I mean, I live
BROWN: I was born at the Portsmouth naval shipyard. My mom was a waitress
at Hampton Beach.
SEN. JEANNE SHAHEEN (D), NEW HAMPSHIRE: When he lost his race, he didn`t
move to New Hampshire and say, I want to get involved in the state. He
thought about running for Senate again in Massachusetts, then he thought
about running for governor in Massachusetts. Then he went to Iowa and said
he was thinking about running for president.
Well, I don`t think New Hampshire is a consolation prize. I think we need
a senator --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: I am joined now by MSNBC`s Steve Kornacki at the big election
board over there in our Senate races.
And, Steve, the most dramatic outcome I`m hoping for, the most dramatic, is
that the control of the Senate all comes down to the election in Kansas
where an independent is running and the one thing he refuses to answer is,
who he will vote for, for majority leader?
So, if we get 50 elected Republicans in the Senate, 49 elected on the
Democratic side, Orman is the independent that could make 50 on the
Democratic side. Joe Biden would then make 51 in the votes for majority
leader if Orman goes and becomes the 51st Republican, then Republicans
control the Senate.
How do we get to the giant pressure of the Greg Orman moment?
STEVE KORNACKI, UP: Of course, the "West Wing" writers are looking for a
So, let`s -- well, let`s look for it. Let`s take a look at the big board
here. So, you can see it right in the middle of your screen there --
Kansas, a color that nobody thought it would be this time of year, the end
of October. It`s yellow, yellow being undecided.
Yellow being one of the battleground states. You see, there are 11 of them
on the map, a battleground of 11 states, which is big for this time of
year. Usually, it`s narrower at this point.
So, you got 11 that are up for grabs right now. As you see right now,
we`re starting the Democrats at 43, but that`s a bit misleading.
Now, keep in mind, you`ve got these two independents. You got Maine`s
Angus King and Vermont`s Bernie Sanders. They caucus with the Democrats.
So they`re really starting at 45, Republicans at 44. And again, as
Lawrence said, two different numbers here. Republicans 51, Democrats 50,
with Biden`s tie breaker.
Now, what we`re going to try to do to get to that Kansas scenario is narrow
this battleground a little bit. I want to tell you how I`m doing that. I
looked at the polling average in these battleground states.
This is not one random poll. If we have one random poll, it could be an
outlier, it could be an error, there could be mistakes, there`s a margin of
error, all of that. The average of all polls is a lot more significant
when somebody is ahead in that.
So, here`s a perfect example. We`re going to start up in New Hampshire.
You had the clip here a minute ago, Jeanne Shaheen running against Scott
The average of all the polls up there puts her three points ahead of Scott
Brown. That`s significant when you`re averaging them together. Scott
Brown may still win New Hampshire, but we`re going to -- for our purposes
right now, we`re going to assign New Hampshire to the Democrats. We`re
going to make it blue. OK. They`re up to 44, up to 46.
Same thing in North Carolina, Kay Hagan, incumbent Democrat, small but
steady lead in the average of the polls. Make it blue. OK.
Now, we`re going to paint some states red, though. We`re going to look at
Kentucky. Mitch McConnell, the embattled Republican leader, he`s four to
five points ahead of the average over Alison Grimes. Right now,
tentatively, we`re going to make that red.
Arkansas, Mark Pryor, the Democratic incumbent is in a world of trouble in
Arkansas right now. He`s falling down about five points in the average.
We`re going to paint that red for now.
Louisiana, as you might expect, it`s a funky state. They have a very
different way of doing elections down there. We can talk about that.
But the bottom line in Louisiana right now, is that Mary Landrieu, the
incumbent Democrat, conventional wisdom is she has a tougher road to
victory in this than the ultimate Republican she`ll face. So, we`re going
to -- right now, we`re going to say, red for Louisiana.
We look at South Dakota -- South Dakota, one of the most volatile states on
the map right now because you have an independent candidate, Larry
Pressler, former Republican senator, now running as an independent, getting
over 20 percent in the polls. He`s running out there. We`re looking for
some new polling on this. But for right now, the Republican candidate,
former Governor Mike Brown continues to lead in the averages. We`re going
to assign that red for right now.
That takes us out to Alaska. Mark Begich, this is a Democrat seat,
incumbent Democrat Mark Begich losing slightly in the polls right now. The
thing you got to think about there is that when Begich got elected in 2008,
it was the best possible circumstances. His opponent, his Republican
opponent, got convicted of corruption charges a week before the election.
He`s still barely won. It took two weeks to get a result out there.
So, 2014, not nearly his favorable conditions. He could still win, but
we`re going to call that red for right now.
Now, take a step back and see where that leaves us. That gives the
Republicans 49, the Democrats 47. We`ve got sort of our final four on the
board right here.
Remember Republicans now would need two of these to get to their magic
number of 51. We`re going to leave Kansas out.
Look at the other three -- Iowa, Colorado, Georgia. Bad news for Democrats
in these, you take the polling average in these states. They`re losing on
all three of these.
The good news, they`re all within reach. The (AUDIO GAP) Mark Udall, the
incumbent Democrat, down about three points in the average there. Let`s
say that goes Republican and let`s make that red. Look at that,
Republicans now at 50, they are one away in the scenario.
But Georgia, as Lawrence said in the intro there, all of a sudden, is in
play because of comments Republican candidate David Perdue made about
outsourcing. Let`s say Michelle Nunn seems to have real momentum there in
Georgia. So, let`s say she wins it. Let`s say she picks up Georgia.
Look where the Democrats are right now. Now they`re getting closer.
Iowa, Joni Ernst, Republican candidate about a point ahead in the average.
Very close in Iowa right now. We`ve got to make a few assumptions here to
get to that Kansas scenario. Let`s say Bruce Braley makes up that point.
Let`s say Bruce Braley pulls it out in Iowa.
Now, look at this -- 47 and two independents makes it 49 for Democrats,
Republicans sitting there on 50. Let`s say Greg Orman, the independent,
beats Pat Roberts in Kansas.
And there is your scenario. If he joins with the Democrats, it`s 47 plus 1
is 48, plus 2 is 50. Joe Biden to break the tie, Democrats have (AUDIO
GAP) 50 plus 1, 51. Republicans have the majority.
So there it is, Lawrence. That is one of the scenarios. It will get you
O`DONNELL: The thing about Orman is, the answer he has given is, I will
vote with the majority. In other words, if the Republicans have 52
senators, then I will caucus with them, because that`s where the power is
in the majority. If the Democrats have 52, I`ll caucus with them. And
he`s never said, what if it`s up to me, as it is, in that scenario --
KORNACKI: He`s never answered the one -- the only time it would matter.
O`DONNELL: The only time it would matter.
That`s the one he won`t do.
O`DONNELL: Can`t wait you going through those real numbers on election
KORNACKI: Looking forward to it. It`s going to be fun.
O`DONNELL: Thank you, Steve, very much. Thank you.
Steve Kornacki, of course, you can watch him, as I do, weekends 8:00 to
10:00 a.m., Saturdays and Sundays.
And coming up next, for every program that lets someone track your
movements and read your messages, there is someone building another one to
help you keep your privacy. Even from the people closest to you who are,
in fact, the ones most likely to violate your privacy.
And Ronan Farrow is going to join me later. He has an interview with Nobel
laureate Malala Yousafzai. You will hear him ask mala about the three
girls that we reported on running off to Syria who were stopped in Germany
this weekend and sent home. We`ll be back with that.
O`DONNELL: In the "Spotlight" tonight, the adultery arms race. A report
in "Atlantic" says spouses now have easy access to an array of
sophisticated spy software that would give Edward Snowden night sweats.
Programs that record every key stroke that compile detailed logs of our
calls, texts and video chats that track a phone`s location in real time,
that recovers deleted messages from all manner of devices without having to
touch said devices that turn phones into wiretapping equipment and on and
Joining me now, Scott Stossel, the editor "the Atlantic magazine" who
edited the piece, "the adultery arms race" and Mitchell Matorin, an
attorney who specializes in internet law.
Well Scott, this is very scary piece of work you`ve revealed for us. And
I`ve got to say, with all the coverage that we`ve given to what the NSA is
up and everything that Edward Snowden has exposed about what the NSA is up
to, it seems to remain that the biggest likely threats to our digital
security is some, you know, wise guy in his garage somewhere who is trying
to do identity theory (ph), or someone in China who is not trying to
identify theory (ph).
Or now, even more likely after reading the piece that you guys ran, someone
you`re living with who decided that he or she needs to know an awful lot
more about what you`re up to.
SCOTT STOSSEL, EDITOR, ATLANTIC MAGAZINE: Yes. I mean, what you`ve got is
a phenomenon that is really we say the adultery arms race, there`s a
certain spy versus spy escalation. And statistics on adultery are
notoriously fuzzy because people lie. But if it`s true that, say, 15
percent of wives and women and 20 percent of men cheat, that means there`s
that many spouses looking to try to catch their significant others
And so, you know, our November issue, our technology issue, and we`re
talking about in a ray of articles how technology effects the way we live
now. And there is this whole panoply of applications, websites, technology
that cater to both the would-be cheaters and the snoops, the would-be, or
afraid to be cuckolds (ph).
And some of these companies actually play both sides and market their where
is to both there would-be cheaters and the would-be snoopers. So you`ve
got companies like -- there`s one where if you`re afraid that someone is
going to see that you`re secretly texting your paramour, you just shake
your iphone or your smart phone and it brings up stock prices. You have
programs like text erase or tiger text or cover me which causes your text
messages to your elicit paramour to, you know, instantly vanished.
None of these speaks very well of us as humans, I suppose. But I guess
it`s natural that companies would jump into the fray to try to profit from,
you know, what is the eternal urge to cheat and the eternal fear by spouses
that they are being cheated upon. So you have this escalation in
O`DONNELL: You sure do. It seems like we`ve gone past either trying to
guess someone`s password or just kind of looking over one of shoulder and
Mitchell Matorin, as our senior advisor here on legal matters of these
kinds, is this stuff legal?
MITCHELL MATORIN, ATTORNEY, LAW EXPERT: Well, I think the article points
to two different types of software. The first type of software is
dedicated to protecting the user`s own privacy. So the private texting
application, the other things that protect a person`s communications with,
for example, a paramour, that`s one type of thing and that is fine. That`s
legal. You`re controlling your own privacy.
The more troubling type of software, discussed in the article is software
allow somebody to spy on someone else`s communications. The software that
you can load on to somebody else`s telephone and it picks up all of the
telephone calls, all the text messages, all the emails, all of their
communications to social media, some of them allow you to turn on the
microphone on the telephone remotely so that you can hear what`s going on
in the room where the person is. All of that, there are plenty of laws on
the books. And that type of software violates pretty much every one of
It is a violation of the anti-wiretapping statutes. It`s a violation of
the state laws governing consent for telephone recordings. It`s a
violation of anti-stalking laws. So really, there`s a plethora of
violations, both criminal and civil if you` been using that software,
you`ve subjected yourself to criminal liability. The manufacturers are
subject to criminal liability. And if you` been a victim of some of that
software, you have civil remedies as well.
The DOJ just indicted the manufacturer of one of those particular cell
phone monitor app called (INAUDIBLE), for violated for wiretap laws and I
think that`s probably the first of things to come.
O`DONNELL: Scott Stossel and Mitch Matorin, thank you very much for
joining us tonight.
And if you really got to know how to hide your text messages or maybe if
you`re going to try to crack into someone else`s even though you just
learned it`s illegal, to find out how to do that, you`ve got to go to "the
Atlantic" and read that piece.
Thank you guys, very much.
Coming up, remembering the legendary Washington Post editor Ben Bradley.
O`DONNELL: Legendary editor of "the Washington Post" Ben Bradley died
tonight at the age of 93. We`ll remember him next.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RICHARD NIXON, FORMER PRESIDENT OF UNITED STATES: I shall resign the
presidency effective noon tomorrow. Vice President Ford will be sworn in
as president at that hour in this office.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: Forty years ago, Richard Nixon became the first and only
American president to resign the office. He did so after "the Washington
Post`s" Pulitzer per prize winning coverage of a third rate burglary at the
Watergate hotel, ultimately led the House of Representatives to impeach him
for obstruction of justice with the intent to cover up unlawful activities.
The story of how Washington Post reporters Bob Woodward and Carl Bernstein
working with the full support of editor Ben Bradley exposed the crimes of
President Nixon and his top aides was portrayed in the 1976 film, "all the
president`s men." The great Jason Robards (ph) won an academy award for
his performance as Ben Bradley.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Everyone says, get off at Ben and I come on very safe
and I say well, you`ll see. Wait until it`s bombs out. But the truth is,
I can`t figure out what we`ve got.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What else you working on.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re after the employees.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where is it?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s classified.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How are you going to get it?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We haven`t had any luck yet.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Get some.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: "The Washington Post" says Ben Bradley`s most important legacy
is his decision in 1971, to defied the Nixon administration and published
the Pentagon`s papers, a top secret analysis of American involvement in the
Vietnam war and how American officials were deceiving the American public
about the extent and the efficacy of that war.
Ben Bradley died today at the age of 93. Here`s NBC`s Tom Brokaw with more
on the life and times of Ben Bradley.
TOM BROKAW, NBC NEWS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over) Benjamin Crownwinshield
Bradley, an American original. (INAUDIBLE) Harvard man, heavy action
during World War II. He made "Newsweek" into a power in Washington
journalism, and palled around with another Harvard man, JFK.
Bradley became the most famous newspaper editor in the world. The man who
guided two rookie reporters in Watergate, the scandal that brought down an
BOB WOODWARD, JOURNALIST: What he said after we talked, Nixon is involved,
lives could be at stake. There was wiretapping. I mean, this is going the
distance. His question was what the hell do we do now, which is the
question of somebody who realizes we`re totally in unchartered waters.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We asked ourselves a lot of questions and how could all
of this be true? How could somebody with all that much to lose put it at
risk every day?
BROKAW: Bradley, Woodward and Bernstein had help, but they were the team
that nailed the Nixon cover-up. And Ben was in charge.
DAVID REMNICK, JOURNALIST; He had daring, he had, let`s call it by its
proper name, he had (bleep). He was willing to be dangerous.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He wanted to be first with a story, but he never wanted
to be wrong.
BROKAW: The legendary editor and his young writers became rich and famous,
and on the big screen in "all the president`s men."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Damn it, when is someone going to go on record in this
BROKAW: A fourth member of the team was Katherine Graham, owner and
publisher of "the Washington Post." Kaye, as she was know, stood fast
beside Ben, her friend and editor when Nixon`s allies were threatening to
take down the newspaper.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hold it. Hold it. We`re about to accuse Halderman
(ph) from a conspiracy inside the White House. It would be nice if we were
BROKAW: Bradley and his third wife, writer and commentator Sally Quinn,
short hand for power couple. He was known for his charm, his star power
and his profanity.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jesus, what kind of a crazy (bleep) story is this?
MARK LEIBOVICH, JOURNALIST: He was the epitome of newsman charisma. Even
when he walked across the news room, he had this effect that made you want
to do better.
BROKAW: Bradley stumbled after Watergate, publishing a prize-winning
series on an 8-year-old heroin addict, but it was a hoax. He recovered and
remained the man with pedigree and that`s all vocabulary.
BROKAW: A dashy journalist right of the front page.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s my kind of hard. I like that. If you`re right,
it isn`t hard.
BROKAW: Fearless and yet sentimental. My last interview of him, the 50th
anniversary of the assassination of his friend, John F. Kennedy.
Did you cry?
BEN BRADLEY, JOURNALIST: Sure, I remember crying, the day when Jackie
walked in that God damn dress.
BROKAW: And put her arms around you?
BRADLEY: Put her arms around me.
BROKAW: You turn away now when you`ve seen those scenes and said I`ve seen
it enough, I lived it.
BRADLEY: I don`t.
BROKAW: You still watch it.
BRALEY: I still watch it.
BROKAW: Those whose lives he touched and careers he made were under his
spell for life.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ben Bradley was not a cynical man. Not cynical about
politics. It was always fact-driven, as a reporter, you appreciate that.
And in fact, I fell in love with it and him.
O`DONNELL: Ben Bradley retired as executive editor in 1991 after 26 years
as head of "the Washington Post" news room. Among his many rewards, he
received the presidential medal of freedom last year for, quote,
"unleashing of era investigative journalism."
And President Obama recited a poem about Ben Bradley written by another
presidential medal of freedom recipient.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: When Ben retired, Senator
Daniel Patrick Moynihan put the admiration of many into a poem. Beware Ben
Bradley, his reign has ceased but his nation stands, his strength
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: Today in Philadelphia, Ronan Farrow asked Malala Yousafzai
about the news report of American teenage girls today being in this
intercepted on their way to Syria to join the Islamic state. Here`s what
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MALALA YOUSAFZAI, PAKISTANI ACTIVIST: We should ask questions. We should
have this ability to say why. Because sometimes we are motivated quite
easily, and this is what was happening in Pakistan, because you would see a
scholar and the scholar would pretend that this scholar knows everything,
which might not be true. And with those people, this is a message. And
according to this message in Islam, you have to kill all non-Muslims or the
Shias are different than ours, so you kill all Shias.
So we have created this idea that you are not allowed to question. But I
think we should encourage the youngsters, young generation that you should
ask questions like why? Who says this to me. Why should I kill someone
else? Why should I join a fight? Is this what God wants me to do?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
O`DONNELL: Joining me now Ronan Farrow, host of "RONAN FARROW DAILY" here
So Ronan, that`s the biggest interview any of us could hope to get. Being
able to talk to her about this directly today. She really is
extraordinary, and she seems to be the key, if it can be found, to speak
directly to those girls who are headed off from Colorado to presumably
Syria. That she seems to have what it would take to get through to them.
RONAN FARROW, MSNBC HOST, RONAN FARROW DAILY: She understands organically
what it is to be a part of a generation and part of a place where young
people are searching for mean, desperate for it in the chaos of a lack of
development, a lack of anyone telling them they have the right side of
goals. And here answer to that was to cling to education and trying to
bring it to others.
FARROW: But she hasn`t been afraid to turn paradigm on their head over and
over and over again including saying that the answers for all these foreign
recruits which as you reported many times, are at the heart of the ISIS
effort now, she`s saying the answer is questioning authority and actually
breaking away from the very nature of their faith. That makes sense.
O`DONNELL: So let`s listen to more of what she had to say.
FARROW: What does your faith mean to you? You`ve gone On the Record
saying Islam is being misused by these terrorist organizations. What is
your faith about? What is the proper use?
YOUSAFZAI: Well, the word Islam means peace. And for me, Islam is a
religion of peace, a religion of brotherhood, humanity, love, tolerance.
So I think this is what we need to understand what real Islam means. And
as far as I know, Islam has always given the message of justice. And I
strongly believe in Islam and proud to be a Muslim. But there are some
people who are trying to (INAUDIBLE). They are misusing it for their
personal benefits. And they are misguiding people.
When I was meeting President Obama, I shared two things with him. Number
one was that the money that is spent on weapons and on guns and on wars, if
that money is spent on education, it could really change the world. And my
message was very simple. I said that instead of sending guns, send books.
Instead of sending weapons, send teachers. So this was my simple message.
And I said that these countries, the developed countries, they should start
focusing on education, and this is how we are going to develop and go
FARROW: Do you consider yourself a feminist, Malala?
YOUSAFZAI: Well, I fight for women`s rights and I believe that every woman
as the right -- everyone has equal rights as men have because why should
there be a difference? Because sometime people think that women`s bodies
are weaker and they do not have such big muscles as men have and they
cannot run a family, they cannot run an office and they are not as wise as
men are, but we actually don`t see the reality. Because in reality, it is
the woman who is controlling the whole house, who is taking care of the
children, who is also cooking, never appreciated for that.
FARROW: Of course, you`ve always been in the nose because of the Nobel
YOUSAFZAI: I did in my chemistry class and I was focusing on chemical
reaction, et cetera, et cetera. And then one of my teacher came in. I was
quite worried. I said what have I done? Then she told me I have won the
Nobel peace prize. And it was great honor for me to hear this. And it was
an honor for me because many woman have won the Nobel peace prize. In that
sense, a complete honor that a woman has won it.
Then the youngest, so it also gives hope to many young children and many
young people that yes, their work is appreciated and what they`re doing for
the cause of education matters. Because sometimes we think that what we
do, have a good impact. So it show that all walk also has a good impact
and it can bring change.
O`DONNELL: Ronan, does she travel with a big security group around her?
FARROW: She does. I was relieved to hear because obviously we know
exactly how much she is a target. She`s surrounded by security. But she
also has her father there. And she has a small inner circle. I talked a
lot about being close to her family. She said just after talking about
that experience, being in chemistry class, she went right back to her work.
And in fact, it is the first time that she has had a late homework
assignment, she had to say, I won the Nobel prize.
O`DONNELL: Does she hope to be able to go back to Pakistan. She lives in
England now because she wants -- .
FARROW: England, exactly. And I asked her what that was like, being able
to go to school, does she loves "Downton Abbey." How is she popular in
school. And she was very candid about all of those things. But she is not
pretending to be anything that she isn`t. And what she is, is every bit as
serious as you think she is every bit of passionate as you think she is and
every bit as committed. And also every bit as committed in particular to
the place that is Pakistan and the people of Pakistan. That`s where her
heart is and she says she wants to go back.
O`DONNELL: Great interview. I`m sure we`ll have more on your show.
FARROW: I`m going to have it tomorrow.
O`DONNELL: Great. How long was the whole interview?
FARROW: Forty minutes. You saw the tip of the iceberg. It`s things like
her taking us inside her meetings with President Obama. She is very candid
and quite fearless about it.
O`DONNELL: Most surprising thing she said?
FARROW: most surprising thing was it openly saying President Obama is
playing politics. That`s exactly --
O`DONNELL: We`ll watch that tomorrow. Ronan Farrow, thank you very much
for joining us tonight.
FARROW: Thanks, Lawrence. Pleasure.
O`DONNELL: Chris Hayes is up next.
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