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All In With Chris Hayes, Tuesday, October 28th, 2014

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October 28, 2014

Guest: Derrick Pitts, Sophie Delaunay, Greg Graffin, Robin Morgan, Gloria

CHRIS HAYES, HOST: Tonight on ALL IN, the first catastrophe in NASA`s
attempt at commercial flight. An unmanned supply ship explodes seconds
after take-off. We`ll have the latest.


defined by fear.


HAYES: Presidential pushback on the treatment of Ebola health care workers
as Governor Chris Christie scotch at criticism for quarantining a nurse
against her will.


GOV. CHRIS CHRISTIE (R), NEW JERSEY: Whatever. Get in line. I`ve been
sued lots of times before. Get in line.


HAYES: Plus, new poll results shake up the midterm predictions. Could
Alaska decides the balance of the Senate next week?

"God is not a magician with a magic wand," the pope thumbs his nose at
fundamentalists and a special guest tonight, legendary activist, Gloria
Steinum will join me live. ALL IN starts right now.

Just over an hour and a half ago, an unmanned 14-storey rocket laden with
supplies for the International Space Station took off from Wallops Island,
Virginia and here`s what happened.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And we have lift off, emissions with ISF, engines at
108 percent.


HAYES: Nobody was injured in the explosion, but there are reports of
property damage at the Lotch Complex. The rocket and the Launchpad
belonged to Orbital Sciences Corporation. The company is one of several
paid by NASA to supply the International Space Station.

According to, they have $1.9 billion contracts for eight cargo
missions through 2016. This was Orbitals` third mission to resupply the
ISS. There are six people currently board the space station and the rocket
was carrying 5,000 pounds of experiments, food and equipment for them.

NASA says that none of the supplies on board were urgently needed.
Hundreds of people were watching from the ground. Here`s what it looked
like when the rocket exploded 6 seconds after the launch. This is the
first catastrophe since NASA to private operators to deliver cargo.

NASA is characterizing what happened as a catastrophic anomaly, but there`s
still no word on exactly what went wrong. Joining me now on the phone is
Derrick Pitts. He is the chief astronomer at the Franklin Institute in

Derrick, tell me what kind of rocket this was and how routine are these
kinds of launches? How often do they happen? And how often do they happen
without incident?

Chris, this is basically a standard, liquid-fuelled rocket, hydrogen,
liquid oxygen, probably, fuel and oxidizer. These kinds of launches are
actually fairly common place.

It`s like launching a satellite or launching again like this one was doing
supplies to International Space Station. The commercial entities have been
very, very good with their record so far in launching supplies to
International Space Station.

HAYES: So this was a major policy change, if I understand correctly. NASA
used to do all of these themselves. They started opening it up for bidding
to private companies. When did it happen? You just said, up until now, it
appears like it`s gone fairly well?

PITTS: Yes, it has gone fairly well. NASA has been working on this for at
least the last five years, trying to move some of its operations out to
commercial corporations to handle this easy resupply work, in a sense.
When I say easy, I mean routine kind of operations of just launching

We`ve been doing a lot of that for the last 60 years in the American space
program and as an unmanned mission just sending supplies and equipment,
that is again fairly routine.

But NASA has been pushing this off, opening the doors for commercial
operations to handle this kind of work because it can be done fairly well
by these other companies.

It doesn`t reduce the risk, though, of what can happen when something
happens when an engine component or something else in the rocket fails.

HAYES: So, obviously, we`re familiar with the sort of catastrophic,
tragic examples of rockets that have not -- that have failed to launch over
NASA`s history, that have cost the lives of astronomers. Have there been a
series of unmanned rockets that have failed to launch? Is that something
that has happened over the years?

PITTS: Sure, yes. Unmanned rockets have failed to launch a number of
times and you can look at this kind of phenomenon all across the space-
faring nations. All of the space-faring nations have had rocket failures
because this is a very, very difficult business.

The rockets are very, very complicated. The pressures that they`re using,
the temperatures of the fuel and the oxidizer, all of those things are
right at the limits of how engineering can behave.

So for every country in the world that`s doing some space faring, they`ve
had some issue with unmanned rockets. Occasionally, every once in a while,
there`s a risk of a failure happening is not eliminated in any case.

So there`s always a chance that something could fail, although the
engineers work extremely hard to minimize those risks and keep that from

HAYES: Derrick, just quickly walk me through. The basic principle here is
you have a lot of very combustible fuel packed in a tight space that`s
burned very hot through an engine that creates sufficient thrust to get
that thing up and out of the atmosphere, right?


HAYES: And because you have that, the pressure and the combustibility is
so high, that when we have something go wrong, as you see, it explodes?

PITTS: Yes, that is the case. You have the fuel. You have the oxidizer.
When you mix the two together, that`s what you get. You get the explosion.
What happens in the combustion chamber is that you`re mixing the oxygen and
the fuel and very, very careful, very measured way and igniting it and
directing it.

So that the exhaust is what actually provides the action that then provides
the reaction of carrying the rocket up towards orbit. So in any case, any
rocket operating anywhere is always the same thing. It`s the controlled
mixture of the oxygen and the fuel, the ignition of which creates the
thrust that lifts the rocket.

HAYES: When you think about it, it`s sort of remarkable that we were able
to successfully pull this off is always my thought whenever I see something
like this. Derrick Pitts, thank you, sir.

PITTS: Thank you.

HAYES: All right. Coming up. New Jersey Governor Chris Christie is in
the state of Maine tonight and so is the nurse that he set into quarantine
over the weekend in Newark, New Jersey. Tonight, he is not backing down
neither is she. Don`t go away.


HAYES: We`ve got lots more show for you ahead. Steve Kornacki will be
here. Gloria Steinum will be here and Greg Graffin, the lead singer of Bad
Religion will be here. You definitely need to be here, too.


HAYES: Exactly one week until the midterms, President Obama is on stage in
Milwaukee, Wisconsin right now where he is giving a final push to Democrat
Mary Burke in a race against Republican Governor Scott Walker.

It`s the president`s first stop in a six-day blitz through six states in
the home stretch of the campaign including his first appearance for the
Democratic candidate for Senate in this cycle, Michigan`s Gary Peters.

But unlike many of the other midterm battleground states, President Obama
still has pull in Wisconsin especially Milwaukee where his approval ratings
stands at 64 percent.

The gubernatorial race there represents the Democrat`s third chance in four
years to get rid of Scott Walker and deal with what could be a debt blow to
his presidential aspirations.

After surviving his two very close races including the 2012 recall battle,
Walker is now polling neck and neck with challenger, Mary Burke. He`s been
blaming the closeness of the race on a lack of TV ad spending by the
Republican Governors Association, which just happens to be headed his
potential 2016 rival, Chris Christie.

Walker just got a last-minute financial boost from GOP megadonor Sheldon
Adelson. The casino magnate already maxed out on individual donations in
the campaign earlier this year.

So this time, he made a $650,000 contribution to the Republican Party of
Wisconsin. On that very same day, the Walker campaign reported receiving a
$450,000 contribution from the Wisconsin GOP. What a coincidence.

Chris Christie is due in Wisconsin later this week to campaign with Walker
and today, he visited Maryland, Maine and Rhode Island to make the case for
Republican governors.


CHRISTIE: When we win, we get a chance to govern. When we get a chance to
govern, then we blow away all the pre-disposition that we may have. We`re
a group of folks, men and women, who can get things done. We have great
governors all over this country, who have shown they can get things done.


HAYES: Where did he mention Scott Walker? At this point, according to
Senate Republic Integrity, gubernatorial campaign has spent a total of $380
million on ads, even more than this year`s super-charged Senate races.

Meanwhile, the future control, the Senate is still very much up in the air.
And if you don`t believe me, ask a robot. For instance, the "New York
Times" Senate projection model, which they`ve named "Leo" and one of the
things Leo has determined is that the odds of all the current favorites
actually winning one week from today is only 3 percent.

In other words, the model is predicting it will be surprised. That`s how
volatile this race is. No matter who is ahead right now, there will be
upsets and one race where an upset is looking more likely than ever.
Actually favors the incumbent Democrat.

It`s a race that has been very difficult to poll because it`s in a state
called Alaska. Conventional wisdom has said that the Alaska Senate race
would be an easy pick-up race for Republicans. But the latest polling
tells a different story.

And according to MSNBC`s own Steve Kornacki, those results could turn the
entire battle for the Senate upside down. And joining me now at the big
board to break it down is the one and only, Steve Kornacki.

STEVE KORNACKI, MSNBC HOST, "UP": Well, that`s right, Chris. The keyword
for the entire map this year is volatility. But when you`re talking about
Alaska, the keyword is mystery. There is more range of possibilities in
Alaska than we`re seeing in any other state.

Chris was just talking about the difficulty of polling in Alaska. That`s
something you`re going to be hearing a lot in the next week. I`ll show you
exactly what that means and to do that, we`re going to talk a look back

This is 2008. This is when Mark Begich first won his Senate seat. This is
the average of all of the polls in Alaska right before the election in
2008. It was Mark Begich challenging Ted Stevens.

The key here was Ted Stevens had actually just been convicted of corruption
charges in federal court just before the elections. So the average of all
the polls in Alaska said an 11-point lead for Begich. This is a big blow
out. Begich is on his way to the Senate.

Then they held the election and look what happened. Mark Begich barely won
this race. He goes from 11 points ahead in the average to a 3,700 vote
victory. It took two weeks to count all the votes in Alaska and to declare
a winner.

So the polls were basically 10 points off in Alaska in 2008 so that`s the
back drop for what we`re seeing right now, again, as you say, this is a
race all year. Republicans have looked at this and frankly, Democrats have
looked at Alaska, too, this year.

And they say this is a state Republicans are going to win. Why? Because
if you look at 2008, when all of that favorable climate for Mark Begich --

HAYES: A convicted felon on corruption charges.

KORNACKI: They say, well, look, it`s a better climate in 2014 and our
candidate is not going to be convicted of charges a week before the
election so we are going to win this race. That still may be true.

But if you look, the most recent poll, one came out last night it put
Begich ahead by eight points. The question with all of these about is how
reliable they are. There`s a poll in between that puts Begich ahead by 10.

There is a poll in between that puts Dan Sullivan, the Republican ahead so
in both states, we`re talking about maybe the Democrats are going to win by
a point. Maybe the Republicans are going to win by two points.

In Alaska, we are talking about maybe Begich eats out. Maybe he wins big.
Maybe Sullivan eats it out. Maybe he wins big. We really don`t know. But
what has changed here in the last few days with these new polls is there is
now a real possibility the people are considering that Begich holds this
seat, that Democrats hold this seat.

This is a very unpredictable state. We want to show you that if that were
to happen, the significance of that. Let`s take a look, this is the
battleground right now. You have ten states in yellow that are undecided.

What we want to do is just plug in who is leading in the polling average in
the states right now. For example, in New Hampshire, the Democrat could
change. Louisiana is a little complicated. Colorado, again, close, with
the Republicans ahead. Kansas, you know, is a difficult state because of
the independent, Greg Orman running.

Greg Orman is leading Pat Roberts in the polls now. Democrats assume
Republicans feared that he caucuses with Democrats, a lot of assumptions
there. Let`s say that happens and let`s give that to Democrats. Now, take
a look.

The Republicans are sitting at 50. They need 51. Alaska is the state
they`ve been assuming all year. If they got what they assumed they had all
year, done, over, ball game, 51 for the Republicans. But if Begich holds
on, then the Republicans are stuck at 50.

That`s why I want to point out quickly what`s happening in Georgia right
now. There`s a reason why I left that blank. In Georgia, in the last
couple of weeks, Michelle Nunn, the Democrat has surged against the

If I had been showing you this yesterday, Michelle Nunn, would be leading
in the average. Today, one poll came out that put David Purdue ahead of
Michelle Nunn, change the average around a little bit. He`s now a half a
point ahead of her in the average.

This one truly going back and forth, but the key is, with Alaska, it
doesn`t matter. If Begich holds Alaska, all sorts of other possibilities
open up here for Democrat.

HAYES: Can you go back to Georgia? I want to point out something key.
You`ll see there, 45.8, 45.3, both of those notably below 50 percent.
Georgia has a law, you have to get over 50 percent or you face a run off.
Isn`t that correct?

KORNACKI: Now there are two corks here, yes, Georgia is a run off state.
There`s a libertarian candidate we don`t see here who is pulling about 4
percent. If they have a runoff, normally in Georgia, the runoff would be
held in December.

There was a court ruling that went against the state of Georgia a few years
ago that basically says in federal elections now, when you have the run off
at least for this year, you have to go an extra month.

HAYES: We are looking at possible run off in Georgia in January to decide
the Senate or an extended ballot counting process in Alaska or Greg Orman
of Kansas figuring out who he wants to caucus with, all of that is on the

KORNACKI: Here`s the ultimate quirk. The run off in Georgia is January
6th, 2015. The Senate reconvenes on January 3rd. So, yes, there`s a lot
of unresolved possibilities here.

HAYES: Steve Kornacki working his magic at the big board, thank you very

All right, Chris Christie, as I said, head of the Republican Governors
Association was on the campaign trail today, as was President Obama.
Christie has been pretty much non-stop on the campaign trail. Since Friday
when he and New York Governor Andrew Cuomo announced a mandatory 21-day
quarantine for anyone who treated Ebola patients in West Africa.

This afternoon, Christie headed to Maine to boost incumbent Republican
gubernatorial candidate, Paul LePage. Arriving in Maine one day after
Maine native, Kaci Hickox, the nurse he quarantined against her will for
three days in a tent without a shower after she returned from providing
medical care to people in West Africa.

A combative interview on the "Today" show, Christie maintained he hadn`t
change the quarantine policy and was adamant he had made the right call.


CHRISTIE: If she had never presented with any symptoms, our policy would
have been to send her back to Maine and to ask her to quarantine herself at
home in Maine. It`s because she presented with symptoms and then she was
tested. That testing was ordered by the CDC.


HAYES: After that interview, Christie was asked during a campaign stop in
Rhode Island about a possible lawsuit over his treatment of the nurse.


CHRISTIE: Pardon me?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Looks like you`re going to have to defend this in

CHRISTIE: Well, whatever. Get in line. I`ve been sued lots of times
before. Get in line. I`m happy to take it on.


HAYES: Meanwhile, Senator Elizabeth Warren called on Christie to explain a
quarantine policy that has been widely panned by health officials as


SEN. ELIZABETH WARREN (D), MASS.: You should bring out his scientists who
are advising him on that. We know that we want to be led by the science.
That`s what`s going to keep people safe. Science. Not politics.


HAYES: So today, the second nurse who contracted Ebola while treating
patient, Thomas Eric Duncan in Dallas, Amber Vinson was declared Ebola free
at Emory University Hospital and sent home.

And this afternoon, President Obama took to the south lawn to hail the
health care workers fighting the disease and offer a pretty clear implicit
rebuke of the quarantine policy imposed by Christie, Cuomo and some other


OBAMA: We don`t want to do things that aren`t based on science and best
practices because if we do, then we`re just putting a barrier on somebody
who`s already doing important work on our behalf.


HAYES: Joining me now is Sophie Delaunay, she is executive director of
Doctors Without Borders. It`s really important to have you here. Thank

inviting me.

HAYES: Dr. Craig Spencer currently being cared for in Bellevue here in New
York City, tested positive for Ebola. Kaci Hickox, who was quarantined
against her will, returning from working with Doctors Without Borders.
What is your sense as an organization of the risks your health care workers
face? And what policies are appropriate upon their return?

DELAUNAY: Our doctors and health workers and every aid workers working in
West Africa at the moment are, indeed, taking much risk in facing the
spread of the Ebola outbreak there and this is where they are so needed,

But the understanding of the risk is there is absolutely no risk of a
healthy individual who presents no symptoms. And even though it would
present symptoms, transmission is only possible with contact with body

This is why we are against quarantine. We believe inappropriate measure.
It`s not based on medical science, as has been repeatedly said. And strict
monitoring is much more appropriate in the circumstances.

HAYES: Do you fear that these policies will deter people from volunteering
to do the very, very courageous, necessary work that you`re doing?

DELAUNAY: We`re absolutely convinced of that. Quarantining is an
aggressive measure that targets individuals who are much-needed in West
Africa at the moment. This is where we need to address the epidemic at its
source where it shows no sign of abating.

Quarantine is creating a false sense of security. It is misleading the
people. The people will need to know to be informed about the real risk
and the transmission.

HAYES: Do you have data on -- you have hundreds of doctors working in West
Africa, is that correct?


HAYES: Around 250?

DELAUNAY: Well, we have 3,300 staff working as we speak and 10 percent are
international staff.

HAYES: So what is the transmission rate been like? I mean, how often, you
guys are in the heart of it. How often have you been faced with health
care workers who are getting the disease?

DELAUNAY: We`ve actually had 23 health workers along the more than 3,300
because we`ve had such a rotation, we`ve had several thousand people.

HAYES: I want to see that for people who are listening. You`ve had 3300
people rotating through to care for people who are there the worst thick of
the virus who are, you know, have bodily fluids that are highly contagious
and only 23 have gotten the virus?

DELAUNAY: The 23 have been contaminated, the vast proportion of them 21
were national staff. We`ve conducted a thorough investigation, which helps
us understand how the contamination happened and allows us to improve,
increase our protocols, right.

So out of the 23, 21 were nationals and investigations show that they were
contaminated outside of the workplace in the community. So in fact we`ve
had three international aid workers who actually --

HAYES: Contaminated in the process of giving health care.

DELAUNAY: And Craig is one of them.

HAYES: Sophie Delaunay, thank you. That data is incredibly important. If
you`d like to consider supporting one of the organizations that`s fighting
for Ebola, here`s information for Doctors Without Borders and Partners in
the Health, both of them do amazing work.

All right, who said God is not, quote, "a magician with a magic wand"
today? The answer might surprise you that`s next.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Since the days of Galileo, this church has tried to
slow the relentless march of progress sometimes with misguided means, but
science and religion are not guilty enemies.


HAYES: This week, it was Pope Francis channelling his inner Dan Brown,
basically thumbing his nose at fundamentalists today at an appearance at
the Pontifical Academy of Sciences.

Francis went onto restate what has been the Catholic Church`s strongly held
view on decades of God`s view on revolution and the big bang, which are
broadly accepted scientific consensus.

He explained that believing these scientific theories is not at odds with
Catholics` faith in God saying, quote, "When we read about Creation in
Genesis, we risk imagining God as a magician with a magic wand able to make
everything. But it is not so."

Francis said the big bang theory is not at odds with faith in God.


POPE FRANCIS: (Inaudible).


HAYES: Joining me now, Greg Graffin, the lead singer of the band "Bad
Religion," co-author of "Anarchy Evolution." He also teaches a course in
Evolution at Cornell University. I was reading your thesis which is about
naturalism and God and evolution and the kind of tension there. What was
your response to the pope`s comments?

GREG GRAFFIN, LEAD SINGER, "BAD RELIGION": Well, it sounds like there`s a
lot of angry creationism in the world tonight, I think, from the comments
that he made. You know, I understand and kind of sympathise with what the
pope is trying to do, which is admirable.

Maybe he`s getting more people faith interested in biology and of course,
evolution is an important part of biological science. But there`s
something about it that just doesn`t sit well. It sounds like, as often is
the case, he`s trying to have his cake and eat it, too.

Creationism, he`s saying, that maybe we can`t have the miracles to create
all of these different species that are so obviously adapted to their
environments. But he`s still reverted to creation for the Big Bang. So,
in a sense, he`s saying evolution happens, but, also, miracles still

HAYES: Well, this speaks to something profound about both evolution and
the Big Bang theories. And I`m not a scientist, but I studied philosophy
of science. And in both cases, right, they are when, you understand them
fully, fairly radical attacks on even the deepest notion we have on what
causes a thing, right? There was nothing and then there was something, and
the Big Bang; there was nothing and then there was something in the case of
life as it evolved; there was nothing and there was something. And in all
of these cases, that place from nothing to something has been reserved for

And the question is do you think he is correct that those two things can

GRAFFIN: Well, here`s the problem. There are two fundamental ways of
looking at the world: and these two ways are fundamentally different. The
scientist of today, by and large, are what we call materialists. And we
believethat matter and energy is all that exists in the universe, that`s
not compatible with the religious view that says sure, these material
things do exist, but, also, something else exists that is incorporeal, that
is spiritual and that comes from the mind of God. Those are what we call
dualists. And that dualist position has been around since classical times
and that`s exactly what Charles Darwin overturned around 1859 and ushered
in the modern way of looking at the world.

So, it`s really -- we`re talking about two fundamentally -- you can`t get
more different than a dualist position and a materialist position. And
I`ve not seen anything -- there`s no evidence in the world that suggests
that he dualist position is real.

HAYES: You have a Ph.D. I believe the dissertation was done in zoology.
You`ve taught paleontology and sort of evolutionary theory. Do you have
colleagues who are faithful believers?

GRAFFIN: Not so much colleagues, but there are people in evolution,
certainly, who want to, like the pope, have their cake and eat it, too.
And in fact, I can cite a title of a book called "Can a Darwinian be a
Christian?" And this is one example of an evolutionary biologist that
believes they can exist side-by-side. But, of course, he doesn`t address
the issue that I just brought up, the fundamental incompatibilities between
a dualist and materialist position.

HAYES: Dr. Greg Graffin, with our middle of show philosophy of science
break. Thank you very much.

GRAFFIN: Well, thanks for having me and I appreciate it.

HAYES: You bet.

GRAFFIN: Coming up next, our latest installment of "ALL IN," America takes
us to Tuscon Arizona and the front lines of the immigration reform
movement. It`s a really incredible story. You don`t want to miss it.



SEN. KAY HAGAN, (D) NORTH CAROLINA: And there are out of date text books
if there`s any text books at all. Folks, that is just plain wrong. So
what we are going to do -- oh, y`all, we definitely support immigration
reform, but you need to go talk to Tom


HAYES: Senator Kay Hagan of North Carolina is just the latest elected
official to find herself taking heat from supporters of immigration reform.
President Obama has delayed any kind of executive action on the matter
until after the mid-term elections, precisely in hopes of getting Democrats
like Kay Hagan reelected in a tough political climate.

As we found out in the latest installment of our "ALL IN" America series,
that inaction has led some on the front lines of the reform movement to
take matters into their own hands.


OBAMA: I am not going to give up this fight until it gets done. As Bob
mentioned, I`ve taken so far actions...


OBAMA: I`m about to get to that. About to get to it.

HAYES: Barack Obama probably didn`t think this is where he`d be six years
into his presidency, facing heckling from immigration advocates.

OBAMA: As a nation...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Families are separated. I need your help. There are
thousands of...

OBAMA: That`s exactly what we`re talking about.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Every single day.

OBAMA: That`s why we`re here.

HAYES: The president has pushed hard for reform only to see legislation
blocked by Republicans. At the same time, he has presided over two million
deportations. It took George W. Bush two full terms to hit that milestone.
Barack Obama reached it in just over one.

REV. JOHN FIFE, UNITED MINISTRIES: The Obama administration made a bad
political judgment. And their bad political judgment was that if they
looked tougher than the Bush administration on deportation and on border
security, the Republicans would eventually join them in doing immigration
reform. And the result of that has been disastrous.

HAYES: In what advocates say is the latest Obama betrayal, the president
has delayed executive action on immigration reform until after the mid-term
elections, leaving millions facing an uncertain future.

ROSA LORETO (through translator): A lot of people say, "you are a
prisoner, but at the same time you show a strength that other mothers can

HAYES: For over 80 days, Rosa Robles Loreto has been taking refuge inside
the walls of Southside Presbyterian Church in Tucson, Arizona. She sought
shelter here on August 7th, the day before a deportation order against her

Rosa has a husband and two young sons. They call Tucson home. But all
four were born in Mexico and are here without documentation.

In September of 2010, Rosa was driving to work when she says she became
confused by construction in the road. She was pulled over by a sheriff`s

LORETO (through translator): The sheriff asked me for a visa, a license or
papers. I told him I didn`t have them. So that`s when he called Border

HAYES: She pent 60 days in an Arizona detention facility only being
released after her husband came up with the $3,000 bond.

Rosa and her family wondered what would happen next. After nearly four
following court hearings and appeals, they got their answer: in June of
this year, Rosa received an order of deportation in the mail. She was to
leave the country.

LORETO (through translator): It`s very difficult. Our lives change at
that moment. We see our kids being happy, while our way of thinking is
shifting. My husband and I are now wondering, what are we going to do?

HAYES: Yet, according to the Obama administration`s own stated policy,
Rosa (ph) shouldn`t be forced to leave.

MARGO COWAN, ROSA`S ATTORNEY: President Obama announced that we shouldn`t
be deporting people just because we can, we should set up priorities of
cases to use our resources in immigration court.

HAYES: Margo Cowan, Rosa`s current lawyer, says Rosa`s previous legal
council did not go through the proper channels to close Rosa`s case.

COWAN: Clearly, Rosa Robles (ph) is a case that would have been closed had
had her lawyer asked the government to do so.

HAYES: Faced with a deportation order that would separate her from her
family, Rosa, instead, chose to seek sanctuary.

CONNIE CHUNG, NBC NIGHTLY NEWS: There may be as many as 1.5 million
Central Americans, most of them Salvadorans, living in the United States
illegally. Many of them came here with help of the Sanctuary Movement, a
network of churches pledged to help people escaping violence in their

HAYES: In the early 1980s, wars raging across Central America pushed
hundreds of thousands of migrants north to the U.S.-Mexico border. Arizona
pastor John Fife, along with other activists, helped them get across.

FIFE: We did hands-on crossings with them, crossed them through the desert
and we would show them where the holes in the fence were and when the shift
changes for border patrol occured and where to go on the other side to then
make contact with us and we`d bring them to Tuscon.

HAYES: Fife began to offer shelter to some of these migrants in the church
he was pastor of, Southside Presbyterian. He went public with the efforts
and declared the church a sanctuary.

The Reagan Justice Department took notice.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They called it the Sanctuary Movement, a network of
hiding places for refugees who have fled central America. The
administration says they are here illegally, that aiding them is also

FIFE: We had a movement that was substantial and in active public
resistance to the government.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The Reverend Fife`s church, Southside Presbyterian in
Tuscon, has been under federal surveillance since 1982.

FIFE: And they infiltrated us with undercover agents and paid informants
who were pretending to be volunteers. And actually had microphones hidden
in their jackets and tape recorded conversations with Sanctuary pastors and
priests on both sides of the border and workers here.

UA. MELVIN MCDONALD, U.S. ATTORNEY: Merely because a person has the garb
of the clergy, which all of us respect, I don`t think should put anybody
above the law.

FIFE: The upshot of it was that they used those tape recordings to indict
16 of us in 1985 as a way to intimidate the Sanctuary Movement.

HAYES: Fife was indicted on conspiracy to smuggle and harbor illegal
aliens as well as other charges. He was convicted, but didn`t receive jail

During his time as Southside`s pastor, Fife says the church helped over
14,000 immigrants.

FIFE: So, the Sanctuary Movement is going to go on. And we`re going to
continue to be the church.

HAYES: The Sanctuary Movement did go on. It continues today where it
began, at Southside Presbyterian where Rosa Robles Larreto (ph) is seeking
refuge. Allison Harrinton is the church`s current pastor.

ALLISON HARRINGTON, PASTOR: I think when a lot of people think about
Arizona, they think a particular type of politics or a particular type of
person. And I think in the last few years, people have been talking a lot
about the Arizona vacation of the United States as anti-immigrant laws and
fear and sentiment has
been spread throughout the country. But what people don`t know is there`s
communities of faith throughout Arizona, and, especially here in Tucson,
don`t adhere to this sort of politics, this kind of fear mongering.

HAYES: But giving shelter to Rosa is a decision made by one congregation
in one American city. There is no actual legal protection for her here in
the church.

COWAN: The law applies that one my apply for an order staying the order of
removal and we`ve done that for her. And the government has declined to
approve it.

HAYES: Until the government grants her a stay, Rosa will continue her
fight publicly within the confines of the church.

LORETO (through translator): We are here to struggle. We are here to
work. That`s all. What we`re asking for is the opportunity to thrive, and
to come out of the shadows.

HAYES: But for millions of others, the wait in the shadows continues.


HAYES: We reached out to the federal agency charged with handling Rosa`s
case and here else what they told us, "U.S. Immigration and Customs
Enforcement (ICE) exercised prosecutorial discretion following a thorough
review of Ms. Robles Loreto`s immigration case and has no plans to take
action on her removal order at this time."

Just to explain what that means, the government says we`re not going to go
break down her door and deport her, but we also aren`t going to offer her a
stay that can ensure she won`t end up in detention or deported again if she
gets puleld over at a traffic stop. It is exactly that limbo that many
people find themselves in.

Legendary feminist Gloria Steinum will be here in a few minutes to talk
about a whole bunch of stuff, including her take on Apple and Facebook
deciding to pay for their female employees to freeze their eggs. That`s


HAYES: You know what`s a really worthless genre of pseudojournalism?
Getting random plastic surgeons to weigh in on the alleged procedures that
have been performed on some celebrity they themselves have never personally

That genre has had a bit of a renaissance lately in response to recent
photos of Rene Zellwegger looking admittedly a bit different than we`re
used to. Just hit news outlets excitedly posted the first photos of
Zellweger since the faux controversy -- fauxtroversy -- over her face
erupted last week. I will talk this and other indignities facing women in
the public eye, not with a plastic surgeon, but instead with legendary
feminist Gloria Steinem next.


HAYES: We are one week out from the mid-terms, and if this election is
anything like recent election cycles, the gender gap will persist with
women tending to vote more democratic, men tending to vote more Republican.
The Democrat`s advantage with women is biggest among single women.

In 2012, for example, the gender gap hit a historic high. Unmarried women
voted for President Obama by more than a two-to-one margin. 67 percent of
single women voters cast their ballots for Obama.

While voter turnout dipped overall in mid-term elections, the drop in
turnout among single woman could be a big problem for Democrats next week.

The stakes for that constituency have not changed -- access to abortion,
birth control, equal pay and a living wage, for example are no less
important during a mid-term election than a presidential cycle.

And joining me now to discuss it is Robin Morgan, co-founder of the Women`s
Media Center and Gloria Steinem, also co-founder of the Women`s Media
Center and of Ms. Magazine.

It`s wonderful to have you both here.


HAYES: Well, thank you very much.

GLORIA STEINEM, WOMEN`S MEDIA CENTER: We`re actually here to say thank

HAYES: You`re here to say thank you to me?


HAYES: Well, that`s kind of you. For what?


MORGAN: Well, this is the -- the Women`s Media Center, yearly, comes out
with this, which is the status of women in the U.S. media and people can
get it for free at and just download it. And there`s
everything you
didn`t want to know that was happening or not happening and everything you

There`s very little praise in here, I want you to know. But there is this
sentence, "our researchers pointed out one example of good stuff. MSNBC
commentator Chris Hayes, who sees the merits in setting race and gender
quotas for the media, Hayes bookers must include two women among the four
guests on each of his shows." So congratulations. And you may frame that.

HAYES: We had a rule in the panel show. And we`ve been -- well, thank you
very much. It is the case that representations of women in media -- we`re
in an interesting moment in terms of this particular issue, right -- so you
have the Rene Zellweger imbroglio that happened this week...

MORGAN: Same-old, same-old.

HAYES: Which is the same-old, same-old, except for the fact that it`s also
fired by social media. So you have, in some ways, this weird thing that`s
happened, which the media has gotten democratized, fewer gatekeepers, yet
that democratization can also look a lot more like a patriarchal model. So
it`s like -- is this what you imagined in the future 20 years ago?


HAYES: What did you think?

STEINEM: Although it`s rather like the personality books of the eighth
grade, you know, where you commented on people and said, you know, think
she`s cute, but? Things like that...

HAYES: Yes. It`s exactly right.

STEINEM: And the same thing is true of that and this computerized media,
because you don`t manufacture Oxytocin, what it is that we`re here
together. We have some idea of how the other person is feeling, it`s not

MORGAN: Empathy.

STEINEM: Empathy -- it`s produced by Oxytocin, which is not produced on
the screen or on paper. You have to be together. So people are free to be
more critical online.

MORGAN: It`s like the democratization of cruelty in some way, you know. I
mean, before, if they were going to send you death threats, they had to
write to your publisher, if you were an author, like I am.

HAYES: Now they come right at you.

MORGAN: Now they sit home in their jammies with their Doritoes and press

HAYES: OK, but then the other side of that, right, is that we have seen
incredible feminist media ecosystem flourish and explode online in places
in which -- whether it`s social media, or it`s Twitter, it`s Tumblr, it`s
on feminist publications that have launched online, but it`s very low

MORGAN: Young women.

HAYES: Young women that have completely revolutionized -- you know, the
way that the media operates and, in some ways, forced a lot of these

So when you see the Rene Zellweger thing happen, for example, it`s -- it`s
the backlash, you know people writing about the photographs, and then
there`s this kind of amazing feminist critique that rises up in response to

MORGAN: That`s right.

Well, I mean, among the things that we found in there that we not only
analyze, quote, unquote classic media and print and broadcasting and you
name it, but online media as well, including gaming and the whole recent
scandal that`s gone on with Gamergate. And it`s as patriarchal as any
other place.

But the women are fighting back.

HAYES: You`re saying online media?

MORGAN: Online media.

Everybody had hope that, you know, the internet would open all these -- and
reflects the patriarchy. But with fight back from young women.

STEINEM: Yeah, because you don`t need a of money in order to get the word
out. So, you know, the medium has both advantages and disadvantages. And
what we have to focus I think are two things: the message, what are we
actually saying, never mind where it is; and is there an electronic divide
that`s growing in this world and in this country between people who are
illiterate and people who are not and people who have electricity and
people who don`t.

It`s an anti-democratic force in that way.

MORGAN; I still believe in its potential because there are villages in the
global south where they don`t have electricity, but they have cellphones.

HAYES: And it has been revolutionary.

And there is something about when you say low cost, right? So, you had to
raise some capital to get Ms. Magazine together. Originally, it was an
insert, right? Was it an insert...

STEINEM: In the New York Magazine.

HAYES: In New York magazine, right. And then it sort of out on its own.

STEINEM: Yeah, but we were subsidized by subscribers.

HAYES: Right.

STEINEM; Who liked the insert and...

HAYES: But there`s also, you know, a lot of the women that I know of my
sort of cohort age wise, there`s a psychological cost they pay for being in
the public eye, for being online.


Much more. And it`s not an equal psychological cost.

HAYES: No, that`s right. And that`s been very apparent when I look at my
hate mail and there`s.

No, I`m serious. I`m serious.

STEINEM: No, no, no. It`s huge. And a female name online is 100 times
more likely to get death threats than a male name online.

MORGAN: And that`s shocking.

STEINEM: And people have retreated from public meetings because there
have been threats like the Montreal massacre from male gamers.

MORGAN: It`s like a control of public space. They don`t want women there,
I mean, particularly, the what I call the high testosterone age group, the
18-25 white males, they don`t want people of color there. They don`t want
women there. They are young, white males and...

STEINEM: That exclusion is getting harder.

MORGAN: And it`s their turf, yes, it`s getting harder.

STEINEM: But I have to say -- Robin is making a foray into this in a
different way, because she has become a radio interviewer par excellence.

MORGAN: Well, it`s the Women`s Media Center Live. And it`s a syndicated
radio program that`s both at iTunes and online at but is also
syndicated in 110 countries in broadcasters. And I will tell you, quiet
that my day is made when we have a guest in the little radio show that
could and the guest is on you. And I think OK.

HAYES: We keep our eyes open.

MORGAN: Jimmy Carter, Christiane Amanpour, movie stars, let them -- but
talking content the way they do with you. So...

STEINEM: And if you play your cards right, I think you might get her

HAYES: I would be honored -- I would be honored to do that.

MORGAN: Any time.

HAYES: Robin Morgan, and Gloria STeinem, it`s just a tremendous pleasure
to have you here. Thank you very much.

STEINEM: Thank you. Lovely to be here.

HAYES: All right. that is "ALL IN" for this evening. The Rachel Maddow
show starts now.


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