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'The Last Word with Lawrence O'Donnell' for Thursday, February 5th, 2015

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Date: February 5, 2015
Guest: Zainab Salbi, Asra Nomani, Jerry Coyne, Harold Shinitzky, Jordan
Schultz, Dr. Justin Frank, Adrian Karatnycky

LAWRENCE O`DONNELL, MSNBC HOST: Two days after Jordan`s King Abdullah
promised a, quote, "earth-shaking" response for the killing of a Jordanian
pilot by the Islamic State, as many as 20 Jordanian F-16s launched
airstrikes against the Islamic State in Syria.

In a statement today, King Abdullah said that the global Muslim
community is the primary target of the war waged by terrorists in the
Middle East, adding that, quote, "My region is on the front lines."

As "The New York Times" reports, Muslims all over the world are
condemning the Islamic State`s execution of that Jordanian pilot.

In Syria, the government denounced the group, but so did al Qaeda
fighters who opposed both the government and the Islamic State.

In Egypt, the Muslim Brotherhood and the Egyptian government, for
once, agreed on something, the barbarity of the militant group for the way
it murdered the Jordanian.

And in Cairo, the head of the 1,000-year-old al Azhar Institute was so
angry that he called for the Islamic State extremists to be killed or
crucified or their hands and legs cut off.

Today, President Obama commented on the Islamic State at the National
Prayer Breakfast, the place where presidents go to pander to leaders of
organized religions once a year.


WILLIAM J. CLINTON, FORMER PRESIDENT: I agree with those who have
said that, in my first statement after I testified, I was not contrite
enough. I don`t think there is a fancy way to say that I have sinned. It
is important to me that everybody who has been hurt know that the sorrow I
feel is genuine.

GEORGE W. BUSH, FORMER PRESIDENT: At this hour, we have troops that
are assembling in the Middle East. There`s oppressive regimes that seek
terrible weapons. We face an ongoing threat of terror.


O`DONNELL: If you ever want to search for the worst speeches given by
a modern president, begin with the National Prayer Breakfast, the first of
which was attended by President Eisenhower in 1953.

President Obama, who is the most gifted writer and speaker in the
history of the American presidency, today delivered the worst speech of his
presidency. It was full of hollow pandering from start to finish, as
politician speeches to religious groups always are, and he insists that the
Islamic State is not Islamic.


Pakistan to the streets of Paris, we have seen violence and terror
perpetrated by those who profess to stand up for faith, their faith.
Profess to stand up for Islam, but are in fact betraying it.

We see ISIS, a brutal, vicious death cult, that in the name of
religion, carries out unspeakable acts of barbarism, terrorizing religious
minorities, like the Yazidis, subjecting women to rape as a weapon of war,
and claiming the mantle of religious authority for such actions.

The humanity has been grappling with this question throughout human
history. And lest we get on our high horse and think this is unique to
some other place, remember that during the Crusades and the Inquisition,
people committed terrible deeds in the name of Christ. In our home
country, slavery and Jim Crow all too often was justified in the name of

There`s wisdom in our Founders writing in those documents that helped
found this nation the notion of freedom of religion, because they
understood the need for humility. No God condones terror. No grievance
justifies the taking of innocent lives, or the oppression of those who are
weaker, or fewer in number.

So, as people of faith, we are summoned to push back against those who
try to distort our religion, any religion for their own nihilistic ends.


O`DONNELL: Joining me now is Zainab Salbi, founder of Women for Women
International, Jerry Coyne, professor at the University of Chicago, author
of "Faith Versus Fact: Why Science and Religion are Incompatible", and Asra
Nomani, author of "Standing Alone: An American Woman`s Struggle for the
Soul of Islam."

I just wanted to get your reaction to what you heard the president say

ZAINAB SALBI, WOMEN FOR WOMEN INTL.: I wouldn`t call it the worst
speech at all. I would call it a measured one, a thoughtful one, and
someone that knows what Islam is going through, an identity crisis, an
historical moment of implosion within itself. And all religion has gone
through this, and it is now Islam`s turn. There is a lot of work to do be

But I would call it a wise speech, as a matter of fact.

O`DONNELL: Asra, what was your reaction to it?

ASRA NOMANI, JOURNALIST: It really breaks my heart to hear the words
that President Obama said today. You know, with all due respect, I think
that it`s President Obama that needs to get off the high horse and he needs
to put his feet and plant them firmly on the ground and acknowledge that
there is a very serious interpretation of Islam in the world that is
wreaking havoc on all of us, and we have to take it on and be honest about
what the problem is in our world today.

O`DONNELL: Professor Coyne, your reaction?

JERRY COYNE, UNIVERSITY OF CHICAGO: I agree with the last speaker.
Obama is slowly coming around to the realization that it isn`t just
terrorism involved here, but it`s motivated by religion. He continues to
say that faith does not justify the massacre of innocents, when, in fact,
the Bible says exactly that in the Old Testament, and the Islamic faith, at
least this particular Sunni sect says that. When he finally admits that
this is a religiously motivated horror, then I`ll approve of what he says.

O`DONNELL: I would like to let you listen to something he said at the
United Nations in September, where he was not speaking to religious
leaders. He said he struck a very different tone about this. Let`s listen
to that.


OBAMA: First, the terrorist group known as ISIL must be degraded and
ultimately destroyed. Second, it is time for the world, especially in
Muslim communities, to explicitly, forcefully, and consistently reject the
ideology of organizations like al Qaeda and ISIL.


O`DONNELL: Zainab, no line like that in today`s speech. That there`s
a responsibility for a Muslim community to reject this kind of, we`ll call
it new theology reversion to old theology, whatever we want to call it, he
was suggesting today that, well, this kind of thing happens in all

SALBI: Well, I think, as a Muslim, I think what Islam is going
through is an identity crisis indeed. A lot of people are confused about
their religion within their religion. When you -- I just came from the
Middle East last night, and as a matter of fact, when people say the common
thing is, what is the religion, the one that we grew up with 40 years ago
or the one they are telling us it is right now?

So, there is a crisis within the religion, I think it`s imploding
within itself. And I do think it has become more conservative and more
violent than it has ever been in the last decades, at least. So there is a
crisis in here.

Is it a predestined crisis? Is that the new religion? No, it`s not.
It`s a point of history we have to be outspoken about as Muslims, have
dialogue about. That is not happening yet. So, I think there is an issue,
but I don`t think Islam is a violent religion, nor do I think that any
religion is violent religion. At the core of religion is about doing
goodness and how we interpret it --

COYNE: Well --

SALBI: -- is something that we all can think about.

O`DONNELL: What the president alluded to today is the fact that some
religions have gone through violent phases. Catholicism was the most
murderous force on the face of the earth for hundreds of years.


O`DONNELL: But that`s hundreds of years ago. That`s 800 years ago.

And so, for the president to make a comparison to the Islamic State,
he has to reach back 100 years in Catholicism and then tell Catholics and
Christians today, don`t get on your high horse.

And, Asra, in the process, the president seems to be saying that he
knows what real Islam is, he knows that there is such a thing as real
Islam, and that he can tell you -- I`ll ask Asra to respond to this,
professor, we`ll come to you after that, that he can tell you what it is,
and that is a frequent mistake that people who have not been very highly
educated in religion make, thinking that there is an identifiable, real
version of any religion.

NOMANI: Well, that`s why I think that it`s actually an act of sitting
on the high horse, when you try to pretend what we see in the world today
isn`t real.


NOMANI: We`re just standing in a hall of mirrors.

If I have bags under my eyes, it`s because I`ve spent the last 48
hours dissecting every second of the sad video that documented the murder
of the Jordanian pilot. I will tell you how that video begins. It begin
with (SPEAKING ARABIC) which means "in the name of Allah, the beneficent,
the merciful."

It then went to a clear and very obvious declaration that this was
from the Islamic State. It was not some fancy acronym like ISIL or ISIS
and all of this. It was clearly the Islamic State.

And then, the video proceed to talk about the Crusades, which we had
mentioned at the prayer breakfast today, to bring up every grievance
against Israel, the Jews, and every other possible infraction that anybody
has ever done against Muslims, so that we become a culture of wound
collectors, and that is how we then act out with only violence.

And then, it proceeded to talk about Koranic verses, from (SPEAKING
ARABIC) which tells the believers to have courage to fight and to take
courage in their fight.

And then it proceeded to tell us that there is a Hadith, saying of the
Prophet Muhammad and a fatwa that says we should participate in these just
wars, even if they are against our own fellow Muslims.

And so, to pretend that this isn`t a reality of Islam in the world
today, and that there is a true Islam that is the reality of our world is
to me just a dance that we`re playing to our peril.

O`DONNELL: Professor Coyne, within every religion, there are
arguments about what the proper tenants of a religion should be.

Most Catholics, as you know, in the United States of America support
abortion rights and support that as an individual choice made by women,
whether they`d be Catholic or not. The pope says that is absolutely wrong,
and that teaching is rejected worldwide by Catholics and it`s accepted
worldwide by Catholics and there are many other arguments within
Catholicism. You used to be ex-communicated if you got divorced in
Catholicism. Now, Catholicism finds ways of fixing that for people.

Religions move, they change, they have different sects, different

I would love to hear the president describe what true Judaism is. Is
it orthodox Judaism or is it one of those temples where they have a female

This is just an amazing mistake that the president`s speechwriters and
the president could make today, the notion that this president or anyone
can specifically tell us what is real Islam or the real version of any
other religion. We`re going to have a disagreement with two followers of
Islam right here on this show about what is real Islam.

COYNE: Yes, absolutely. And you`re absolutely right with this.
There is no true version of Islam that you can put your finger on. If you
want to be legalistic about it, you can say -- well, it`s -- the true
religions is what is in the Scripture. And in that case, Christianity,
even though you have to reach back to find it committing things like the
Inquisition, even Christianity has an Old Testament that explicitly
sanctions and approves of terrorism, of terrorism of innocents, of
adultery, of rape, of genocide.

How do Christians write that out as not being true Christianity when
it`s in the Old Testament in black and white? The problem is --

SALBI: Can I just say --

COYNE: Now, let me finish here. The problem with saying that there
is a true faith, and that true Islam has been hijacked by ISIS is not true.
What`s happened with Christianity is it`s become tamer over the centuries
because it was hijacked by the secular enlightenment values that have
gotten rid of those horrible statements in the Old Testament. That`s what
needs to happen with Islam. It needs to be hijacked by enlightenment
values. In fact, ISIS has not hijacked Islam at all.

O`DONNELL: OK. Hold it there, Professor.

Zainab, what we can say about certain religions at certain times is,
there`s a dominant version of it. There`s a dominant version of
Catholicism, especially in certain countries where most people, 60 percent,
70 percent think the following should behave a certain way. And that`s
what the struggle is now is different versions are trying to dominate
others within Islam.

SALBI: It is true, but I would not legitimize ISIS` point of view.
And this is not because I`m a liberal Muslim coming here.

O`DONNELL: No one here is saying that ISIS is the real Islam.

SALBI: OK, good.

O`DONNELL: But once you say it`s not the real Islam, you are then
implying that you can identify there is a real one.

SALBI: There is no way we can all tell what is the real Islam. It`s
all about our interpretation.

COYNE: Absolutely.

O`DONNELL: Then, we all agree.

SALBI: But there are waves that happen in history about religious
revolution, and Islam is right now going through a crisis. I cannot
legitimize ISIS, just because they quoted the Koran or the Hadith or
whatever before the horrible execution, that does not make them real
Muslims or does not make them Muslims actually. What they have done is --


COYNE: Well, I disagree.

O`DONNELL: We`re out of time. What it certainly doesn`t do is prove
that they`re not Muslim, OK? And the president is somehow trying to twist
it to that degree.

SALBI: No, the president is actually trying to open a way to involve
the religion and to have a discussion within the religion, because if we
think of it as doomed, we cannot have a resolution of the discussion. And
what is need the most right now is a liberal value that talks about
religion within Islam.

O`DONNELL: And that is where you and Asra agree. You`re both working
toward within Islam.

I wish I have more time for this tonight.

Thank you all very much for joining me tonight. Zainab Salbi, Asra
Nomani and Professor Coyne, thank you all.

COYNE: Thank you.

O`DONNELL: Coming up, what a Pentagon analysis of the mind of
Vladimir Putin said about what might be behind his extreme control.

And what happened when Seattle Seahawks coach Pete Carroll faced his
team -- he had to do it, he had to face his team -- after making what might
be the worst play called in the history of the Super Bowl. We`ll have more
of Matt Lauer`s interview with coach Carroll and that reaction, coming up.


O`DONNELL: In tonight`s episode of Republicans doing the right thing,
Republican senators have killed Senator Ted Cruz`s plan to block the
confirmation of President Obama`s attorney general nominee, Loretta Lynch.
Arizona Republican Senator Jeff Flake said, "The president ought to get his
people as long as there`s no disqualifying substance there, and I don`t
think there is with here."

Coming up, the man charged with murdering the real American sniper,
Chris Kyle.



UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Would you be surprised if I told you the Navy has
credited you with over 160 kills?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you ever think that you might have seen things
or done some things over there that you wish you hadn`t?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, that`s not me, no.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What`s not you?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I was just protecting my guys. They were trying
to kill our soldiers, and I`m willing to meet my Creator and answer for
every shot that I took.

The thing that haunts me are all the guys that I couldn`t save. You
know, I`m willing and able to be there, but I`m not. I`m here, I quit.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And you can walk down any hall in this hospital.
We got plenty of soldiers that need saving.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Want to take a walk?


O`DONNELL: One of the soldiers, who the real American sniper Chris
Kyle tried to save, is now facing trial for the murder of Chris Kyle and
Chris Kyle`s friend Chad Littlefield at a shooting range in Texas. Jury
selection started today in Texas where 800 potential jurors have been
called in the trial of 27-year-old Eddie Ray Routh, a former marine whose
lawyers are arguing is now not guilty by reason of insanity.

Potential jurors are filling out questionnaires this week with opening
arguments planned for Wednesday. Defense attorneys have asked for the
trial to be moved and postponed, arguing it will be impossible to find an
impartial jury in the small Texas community. Chris Kyle`s book has sold
1.6 million copies and the movie "American Sniper" is the most watched
movie of the year in America so far.

Joining me now is MSNBC contributor and the first Iraq war veteran to
serve in Congress, Patrick Murphy. He`s also a former military and federal

Patrick, you`re a former prosecutor. Take us through what you think
the dimensions of this trial are.

PATRICK MURPHY, MSNBC CONTRIBUTOR: Sure. Well, first thing as you
mentioned, Lawrence, you`re seeing this trial happen right now where you
have 800 citizens from Texas, in Erath County, which is a rural county,
about 40,000 people. They`re going to take these 800 and bring them down
to about 12 jurors and two alternates. And that`s going to be until next

So, Monday and Tuesday, they`re going to whittle those down to about
200 and have what`s called voir dire, and ask these individuals, you know,
can they give an independent judgment, do they have any preconceived
notions. They argue -- attorneys on both sides will argue, the defense
will certain hi think that their client is not going to have a fair trial,
because some of them, a lot of them will have seen that movie "American
Sniper" or read that book that sold 1.6 million copies.

O`DONNELL: And that, Patrick, that won`t necessarily be
disqualifying. They indicated today --

MURPHY: Exactly.

O`DONNELL: -- they will all be asked that, but that won`t in and of
itself be disqualifying. They will be asked, can you put that aside, the
movie, the book, and look at this evidence fairly.

MURPHY: Right. And they will also be asked their stances on the
mental insanity defense, can they -- will they keep an open mind towards
that. That`s what the defense attorneys will really get at because that`s
really the crux of their case and hoping that -- we all know Eddie Ray is
going to go away, Lawrence, for a long time. It`s question of, is he going
to go away for the rest of his life to prison or really to a mental

O`DONNELL: Patrick, let`s listen to what his wife said about this.
Why she doesn`t think this is PTSD.


TAYA KYLE: It was a double homicide, and the people I know with PTSD
are good people, and they live a good life. I feel like whatever you were
before you went into war is what you`re going to be on the other side, with
one -- with a major twist. You`re going to have moodiness, you`re going to
have sleepless nights, you`re going to have a hard time, you`re going to
suffer. But, yes, I don`t buy it, and I don`t think it`s appropriate, and
I think it`s a very lame excuse for horrible behavior.


O`DONNELL: Patrick, your reaction, a lame excuse?

MURPHY: There`s no doubt, Lawrence, we`ve had 2.6 million Americans
that served in Iraq and Afghanistan. Many like Chris Kyle served multiple
deployments. Like Eddie Ray, he had two. He had Iraq and then Haiti.

About 40 percent will come back with some type of post-traumatic
stress disorder or TBI, traumatic brain injury, and some people are just
broken when they come back.

As you know, Lawrence, there`s veterans that do great things when they
come back, but there`s others that struggle so much. And I think this is a
case from my reading of it, Eddie Ray in this case, clearly had PTSD, and
it will be interesting to see how this trial plays out, whether he was
mentally insane and that caused the murder of Chris Kyle.

O`DONNELL: Patrick, does the prosecution thus far, have they offered
any other motivation for these murders?

MURPHY: No. I think they`re really going -- first, they`re going to
go, they`ve put several motions, Lawrence, that they`re not going to be
able to get a fair trial because of the pretrial publicity. The judge has
shut does arguments down. They`ll probably make one more after the jury is
there. But the crux of their argument is that he was mentally insane. So,
we`ll see how that plays out.

O`DONNELL: Patrick Murphy, thanks for joining us tonight.

MURPHY: Thanks, Lawrence.

O`DONNELL: Coming up, the latest case for increasing the inheritance
tax. Rich kids on a plane. Paris Hilton`s brother is facing 20 years in
jail for what he did on a plane.

And still ahead, coach Pete Carroll tells Matt Lauer what happened
when he faced the Seattle Seahawks players after sending into their huddle
the worst call ever in a Super Bowl.


O`DONNELL: We have a new poster boy for higher inheritance taxes.
Conrad Hilton III, Paris Hilton`s younger brother and Hilton Hotel heiress,
surrendered this week to FBI agents, an was charged with assaulting and
intimidating flight attendance and interfering with flight crew members.

The FBI says the 20-year-old went berserk onboard a 10-hour British
Airways flight from London to Los Angeles in July. Court documents say he
tried to smoke pot in the bathroom, tried to fight crew members and paced
up and down the aisle yelling.

The flight crew says Conrad Hilton told them, quote, "I could get you
all fired in five minutes. I know your boss. My father will pay this out.
He has done it before. Dad paid $300,000 last time. And I will F-ing own
anyone on this flight; they are F-ing peasants."

The pilot authorized a team of five flight attendants to subdue Hilton
with restraints, so they could land the plane. When he woke up, Hilton
screamed again, "I am going to f-ing kill you."


If convicted, he faces up to 20 years in prison. Up next, Matt
Lauer`s exclusive interview with Seattle Seahawks` coach, Pete Carroll.
How is he sleeping at night.


MATT LAUER, NBC HOST: You`ve heard the experts, not just average
Joes, say, it was the worst call ever.

PETE CARROLL, COACH, SEATTLE SEAHAWKS: It was the worst result of a
call ever. The call would have been a great one if he catch it.

It would have been just fine and nobody would have thought twice
about it.


O`DONNELL: In the "Spotlight" tonight, the worst result of a call
ever. That was Seattle Seahawks coach, Pete Carroll, reflecting on the --


-- play call that cost his team the Super Bowl. Carroll spoke
exclusively to Matt --


-- Lauer about the fallout from the game, and what the Seahawk players
had to say about the loss.


LAUER: Tell me a little bit about what it`s been like to be Pete
Carroll over these last three days.

CARROLL: Well, it`s been a -- it`s been a whirlwind. There`s a lot
going on. I feel responsible for a lot of people right now, certainly from
the family to the organization of players and the coaches and all that.

But it extends well beyond that, you know, as you go out into our
community and the area that follows. And there`s a lot of people that
really care a lot about what we`re doing. And our game hit them really
hard. And I --

LAUER: You`re answering a little bit like Pete Carroll, the football
coach. And then, let me try it again, what`s it been like to be Pete
Carroll, the human being, over these past three days.

CARROLL: I`d started off with having to get right, about getting my
mind right so that I could take on what I was going to have to do. And
that was face everybody and give them some perspective so that we can move

LAUER: Taking out the fact that it ended badly for you, you still
feel you made exactly the right call?

CARROLL: Well, no, this is the way I look at it. I made the call
that comes out of the process, of the preparation and the practice.

I think that we`re going to do exactly the right thing, or we won`t
call the play. We won`t go with the concept. We won`t ask --


-- our guys to execute it, so that I`d never make a call thinking it`s
going to go bad.

LAUER: So, this was properly planned. It just didn`t turn out well.

CARROLL: We knew we`re going to throw the ball one time in the
sequence somewhere, and so we did. And it just didn`t turn out right.

LAUER: You can`t relive history. You can never win that Super Bowl
again. That one`s gone.

So, let`s talk about turning the corner and turning the page.


You said something on the radio that caught my attention. You said --
and I`m paraphrasing here, coach -- you said, "My whole life has equipped
me --


-- to deal with this moment." Can you explain that to me.

CARROLL: I`m a really optimistic, positive person that thinks that
the next thing that`s going to come up is going to be a good thing.

And it doesn`t really matter what situation I`m in. That`s just kind
of the way that I`m wired.

LAUER: Have you been able to sleep over the last three nights.

CARROLL: Yes, I`m sleeping up some. You know, I`m doing OK.

LAUER: Some.


CARROLL: I wake up and I can`t stop thinking about it, you know. But
it`s the -- sleep part works because we`re so worn out after the six months
of the season.

You know, you can`t help but fall asleep but it`s the waking up, it`s
getting back to sleep is the problem.

LAUER: Have you allowed yourself to have that one moment lying in
bed where the tears flowed, where -- you`re smiling at me but I mean it.
Has there been that moment.

CARROLL: Yes, that happened at that 4:05 mark on the -- you know,
that --

LAUER: On Tuesday morning?

CARROLL: Yes. That`s when I -- there was a break where I allowed --
you know, allowed of the rush of it to hit.

LAUER: Were you alone at that point or with your family.

CARROLL: I was just lying in bed with -- you know, just awake in the
middle of the night, you know, 4:05 a.m., you know. And that`s what
happened, you know.

And that was my opportunity to go ahead and visit it.

LAUER: So, you don`t think you`re the kind of guy who`s going to be,
five years down the road, still thinking what could, should have been.

CARROLL: No. Let me tell you this one. These don`t go away.

These occurrences, they don`t leave. These occurrences have stayed
with me over the years in a manner that they fuel me, you know.

The one at S.C., after -- you know, third national championship
opportunity, you know, 19 seconds left, fourth and seventh, those just
don`t go away.

I really don`t even want to lose those, you know.


I don`t want to wash them out and ignore them. I just want them to be
in a place that they`re going to help me be right.

LAUER: If you allowed yourself --


-- to listen to the noise out there, and what`s on television and
Sports Radio, you could get down pretty quickly.

CARROLL: But I don`t think so. I don`t think that`s the case.
LAUER: Tell me what.

CARROLL: Because I know where it`s coming from. And I know that
they`re doing the best they can to figure it out. They`re not going to
affect the way I think.

LAUER: You had team meeting yesterday, right.


LAUER: You had all the players together and the coaches. What do you
call it on Mondays?

CARROLL: It`s Tell the Truth Monday.

LAUER: Tell the Truth Monday. So, you stood up in front of that
group of players --


-- who had to still be in shock and a bit heartbroken. What was the
truth you told them.


CARROLL: I wanted to make sure that they went through the whole
process of what happened --

LAUER: Went back to the play again, every fault.

CARROLL: -- rethink everything and reminded them of how we had
prepared and how we had -- how we had done things. So, they realized that
whether or not you want -- even the players want to agree with the way we
did it, know that this is the way we have practiced and prepared ourselves
to execute in this moment.

LAUER: Did they all agree. Did anyone stand up and raised their hand
and say, "Coach," --

CARROLL: They could have, but they didn`t. Nobody did.

I don`t think, at this point, everybody is on the same page about that
sequence necessarily. But that`s OK.

LAUER: You said on the radio, "We`re going to make this right." How
do you make it right.

CARROLL: By getting to the truth, by getting in there, talking about
it, facing it up, everybody has cleared their minds.


It`s when you finally gather and you`re read to take that next step,
we`re going to go --


-- places that we`re going to be extraordinary.

LAUER: So, there`s a story of redemption that you`ve already
begun to write?

CARROLL: It`s well underway.


O`DONNELL: How do you think Coach Carroll is handling it. We will
ask a sports shrink next, how he thinks the coach is handling it.

And, also, if you`re in Seattle, you might need some help from this
shrink. It`s next.



CARROLL: These don`t go away. These occurrences, they don`t
leave. These occurrences have stayed with me over the years, in a manner
that they fuel me.


O`DONNELL: Joining me now from Seattle is Huffington Post
Correspondent Jordan Schultz. And, from Florida, sports psychologist,
Harold Shinitzky. He is the author of the new book, --


-- "Take Control of Your Anxiety." Doctor, how do you think --


-- the coach is handling it.

honesty, his ability to take responsibility. Obviously, there`s been an
offensive coordinator who helped call the play.

But, the reality is, like he said, it`s a process. You never have the
perfect play. Things have to be executed.

And in that situation, down in distance, they came up with a play
which, if I`m not mistaken, Lawrence, you realize, one yard away from the
end zone, 66 times it`s been passed, --



SHINITZKY: -- zero interceptions.



SHINITZKY: So, they were looking at that in a reality. And,
unfortunately, the rub play didn`t work where the defensive pack didn`t get
shoved back, but actually made a beeline.

So, we should be celebrating the defense that actually looked at the
way the --


-- play was set up. And that was a remarkable defense.

O`DONNELL: George Schultz, we invited you back tonight because we`re
worried about you. And we have --


-- a shrink here to help you.


O`DONNELL: Yes. You know, as a Seattle native and, you know,
watching this happen to your team out there -- you know, we`re going to
give you Dr. Shinitzky`s number, too, so you can have a private
consultation with him because --

SCHULTZ: Please. I need a personal line and a couple of e-mails.

O`DONNELL: How are you and the rest of Seattle processing Coach
Carroll`s reaction to all this. You watched this Matt Lauer interview, you
hear him talking about what he was thinking.

You also hear him talking about how he`s handling it. It`s bothering
his sleep. He had some -- he spilled some tears about it.

I`m sure he`s not the only one in Seattle who lost sleep and some
tears about it.

SCHULTZ: Yes, no question about it, Lawrence. And I`m so happy to be
back on. because Seattle really is the quietest I`ve ever seen it.


I grew up here for 20 years. I don`t remember a time --

O`DONNELL: And no one wants to talk about this up there, right, like
it`s just --

SCHULTZ: No one. It`s like a -- it`s like a morgue in here. Nobody
understands what happened.

And I think that -- the one thing is with Pete Carroll, people would
like to see him say, "Hey, we made a mistake." Now, there is a sense that
the call went wrong.


But playing the result is maybe what is bothering some Seattleite,
some Seahawk fans that, you know, would actually like to see the coach say,
"We made a mistake. It was the wrong play call."

Obviously, if the call works, we`re celebrating it. But I still am
not convinced that even if the play resulted in a touchdown, it was
the right call.

O`DONNELL: And, doctor, the -- what I was so impressed by,
psychologically, in what he was just saying to Matt, --


-- was, "Yes, this thing is never going to go away." And I think we
all understand that part of it.

But what moves him forward is being an optimist, that belief that he
has that optimists have -- I don`t know where they get it -- but this
belief that the next thing is going to be good, the next thing is going to
be better.

SHINITZKY: That`s a great attitude to have -- if you believe in
yourself and the process, you`re able to look positively, optimistically
live and learn.

We always talk about it with our athletes and coaches, that you have
to develop a short-term memory. So, you live and learn.

You cannot dwell on the past because you can`t change it. And so,
being able to take the situation, --


-- realize there are no guarantees. All you can ever do is increase
your probability of success, doing your best.

O`DONNELL: Yes. And, Jordan, sports is filled with stuff that
doesn`t work.


You know, most basketball players, you know, most of their shots
frequently miss. Certainly, most baseball players, most swings of the bat,
they miss. They just plain miss.

And they can`t, on the next pitch, be standing there, thinking about,
you know, the pitch that they just swung at and missed. I mean --


O`DONNELL: -- this coach is in a much bigger version of that,
especially since he doesn`t get another game next week. He`s got to live
with this one, you know, --


O`DONNELL: -- for quite a while. It`s a different rhythm now when
it happens literally in the final minute of the final game of the year.

SCHULTZ: Exactly, Lawrence. And it was obviously the highest-rated
game ever. You throw in all the pressure.

And, really, now, you have the whole off-season to lead 53 men through
a situation where they had never been through and really hope they never
would have to experience.


I think, the one thing though about Pete Carroll, the success that
he`s had at the college level and, now, at the NFL level, is he`s a leader
and the players love playing for him.

He`s obviously not the most well-liked guy across the NFL in terms of
head coaches, but he`s the guy that the players all swear by because he
lets them be them.

And, I think, in that situation, he trusted Russell Wilson. And I
listened to the mic`d-up version of the game and Russell Wilson kept
saying, "Trust me, trust me."

So, there is a connection there. And, I think, Pete Carroll, if
anybody is apt to be able to overcome this and get a group of
guys together moving forward, it would be him.


O`DONNELL: All right. Now, let`s listen to his response to Matt
Lauer`s big question, might be the biggest question of all -- "Would you do
it again."


LAUER: Take the outcome out of it because nothing you can do but that
you`d make the same call if the situation were the same today.


CARROLL: We can change the rhythm of those calls. One of the calls
was going to be a pass, you know, to stop the clock. A timeout would stop
one, an incomplete pass.

The game is over if you win, if you score. So, that happened to be
that one.

Going back again, I might do it differently. I`m not going to tell my
opponents which way I`m going to do it.


O`DONNELL: Doctor, we`ve seen coaches who, under that kind of stress,
end up with cardiac problems, end up with all, so they internalize it.


O`DONNELL: What I`m hearing from him is he seems to be processing
this about as healthfully as you can.

SHINITZKY: Absolutely. He has the capacity to be able to look at the
situation, realize based on going over film, getting all the scouting
reports, what they could do in this moment to increase the probability of

And, in his mind, this decision was a realistic and positive one. It
didn`t work out.

But just because they lost in the Super Bowl -- as they say, you know,
second place isn`t first loser, you know, the ability to be able to
harness this for the next year.

O`DONNELL: Now, Jordan, Coach Carroll has, I think, pulled out of
this remarkably well. We`re still worried about you. And I am --


-- going to send you the full -- the full Matt Lauer interview because
I want you to memorize the coach`s responses to this, OK, --

SCHULTZ: I have.

O`DONNELL: -- so you can internalize them because it`ll help you, I
think, get through tomorrow and the time it will take to get another Super
Bowl win in Seattle.

SCHULTZ: Thank you. I appreciate it, Lawrence. I will point to the
fact that Pete Carroll said, "If we score, it`s over."

My question to that would be -- exactly, so run the ball and don`t
worry about the clock. But that is a conversation I`ll probably be having
the rest of my life with myself.

O`DONNELL: Jordan Schultz and Dr. Harold Shinitzky, thank you both
very much for joining me tonight.

SCHULTZ: Thank you.

SHINITZKY: Thanks, thanks.

O`DONNELL: We`ll be right back.


At age 88, Harper Lee, the author of "To Kill a Mockingbird," is
publishing her second novel entitled "Go Set a Watchman." Today, Harper
Lee`s attorney said that Harper Lee is delighted by the enthusiastic public
response to the publication of her second book.


"She is alive and kicking and happy as hell with the reactions of

Gregory Peck won an Oscar for his portrayal of Atticus Finch in the
film version of "To Kill a Mockingbird," which Harper Lee co-wrote with
Horton Foote.

Gregory Peck`s daughter, Cecilia, met Harper Lee on the set of "To
Kill a Mockingbird" and visited with Harper Lee recently in Alabama.

since I was born or since I was two. When I went to college, she would,
you know, always call me up and ask me what courses I was taking.

You know, I wanted to study 20th Century American Literature and she
would say, "You`ve got to study the classics." And I would say, "But," you
know, "why, I`m interested in Faulkner and Eudora Welty."

And she`d say, "You can`t understand them if you haven`t read Trollope
and Chalsa (ph), child." So, you know, she was always part of my life.

You know, Harper is such a strong name for a girl. And when we found
out we were having a boy, we had a discussion about whether Harper would be
a good name for a boy.

But we did give it to our son, Harper. I`m so glad he`s carrying that
name. We took him and his sister, Ondin (ph), to Monroeville for spring
break last year.

My husband, Daniel, and I took a drive through the south with the
children, and we spent two days with Harper in Monroeville and, you know,
had the best time.

She`s so -- she`s just the most interesting person. She`s just like
an encyclopedia about Alabama and the history of the south, and interested
in politics and sports and fishing and loves to laugh.

You know, she`s such a private person. She`s like a private national
treasure. And I`m blessed enough to get to have this relationship with

Everybody always wondered, "Is there another book?" And Harper didn`t
welcome all of the attention that came along with "To Kill a Mockingbird,"
and it made her become very private for her whole life.

But I just think that she has decided that the world wants to know
what became of Scout. And I`m -- you know, I feel so lucky that we`re
getting another book from one of our greatest American writers.


O`DONNELL: Coming up, an army of shrinks at the Pentagon have
been trying to figure out Vladimir Putin.


"USA Today" has revealed a 2008 Pentagon think tank report, which --


-- theorizes that Russian President Vladimir Putin has Asperger`s
syndrome, an autistic disorder, which affects all of his decisions. The
report states that --


-- researchers, of course, cannot prove their theory without scanning
Putin`s brain. The Pentagon said yesterday that the research never reached
the Secretary of Defense.


The report also notes Putin`s primary form of compensation is extreme
control, which is reflected in his decision style and how he governs.
Joining me now is Adrian Karatnycky, a Russian and senior fellow at the
Atlantic Council --


-- and Dr. Justin Frank, Clinical Professor of Psychiatry at the
George Washington University Medical Center.

Dr. Frank, of course, the CIA and other intelligence agencies around
the world have tried to do psychological profiles of especially their
opponents around the world. What do you make of this one.

UNIVERSITY MEDICAL CENTER: Well, this is not at all at the same level as
what the CIA did.

The CIA hired psychiatrists and psychoanalysts, who have done
extensive research into these people, not just watching them on videotape
and dealing with their own fantasies about what different body movements

I was sort of surprised, really, that the Pentagon -- that D.O.D.
would pay this kind of money. The CIA is doing a really important job.
It`s not always accurate but they have made an effort.

And that`s why I wrote my two books because I felt it was important to
do that in this -- in our country, and do an analysis of Obama and Bush,
both of which I`ve done that were very serious, which -- you know, it`s a
very difficult situation when it`s important to know the psychology of who
our leaders are.

But this thing about Putin seems sort of silly in a way, especially
because Asperger`s people are not interested in being -- riding around on a
horse bareback--


-- or are interested in doing all of the shenanigans that he does,
stealing a Super Bowl ring from --


-- the owner of the Patriots and then saying, "I could kill someone
with this ring." You know, I mean, those are -- he`s a guy who`s not an
Asperger`s guy.

O`DONNELL: Adrian Karatnycky, can you explain him stealing Super Bowl



think -- ownership. I think he has -- likely feels he`s entitled.

I think, you know, the power he`s been granted --


-- I think he views the Russian inheritance as kind of an imperial and
grand terms of all these -- Stalin is a big model for him -- a powerful,
ruthless leader, Peter the Great, I mean, he does have a sort of a sense of

O`DONNELL: So, you would -- you would look more toward the historic
social psychology of Russia --

FRANK: I would look more -- well, more towards a narrower period. I
mean, I think that what Putin is is more KGB than Asperger`s.

And I think that what there is going on in Russia is that there is a
cult of toughness among males, very articulated. He`s trying to play to
those tropes with these various scenes of activity.

You`re supposed to be kind of cold, hard-hitting. You know, Charles
Bronson is alive and well.


"Death Wish" is alive and well in Russian movies right now. It is
sort of the major trope by which Russian young men are growing up, and it`s
to be tough.

And I think their society is sort of been preparing -- Putin has been
preparing them for this more aggressive type of -- type of behavior. And I
would see that as a more important -- the cultural trends that are
occurring in Russia, than this psychological -- tinkering with the

O`DONNELL: How does that sound, Dr. Frank -- more cultural than
anything else.

FRANK: Well, it`s -- I mean, first of all, the people who are
tinkering with the psychology are really tinkerers.


Secondly, the cultural stuff is very interesting. But it doesn`t
really address this particular person, which I had assumed was the point of
the Pentagon report, that they were trying to address him.

It`s very easy to generalize about Russian culture and talk about this
and that. But this is a particular person who, I agree, that he`s been --
he was a spy and a KGB person, and there are people who have Asperger`s who
are drawn to the world of espionage.


This is the 50th anniversary of "The Spy Who Came in from the Cold," a
publication of that book by John le Carre. Very important.

And you can see a lot of character studies on the different people
who are --


-- cold-blooded, the way Putin seems to be at times. But I don`t know
what else to say.

O`DONNELL: All right, we could leave it there, Justin Frank, because
we`ve run out of time. Dr. Justin Frank and Adrian Karatnycky, thank you
both very much for joining me tonight.

Chris Hayes is up next.


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