Guest: Muhammad Ali Hasan, Rachel Maddow, Max Kellerman
TUCKER CARLSON, HOST: Tonight, on THE SITUATION, we have a cloned dog, a kid's lemonade stand shut down by a sausage vender. That's a weird one.
CARLSON: And strippers causing a ruckus on an Illinois golf course.
Let me introduce you to tonight's panel. First, you know him as the host of “SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY” here on MSNBC, the great Joe Scarborough.
JOE SCARBOROUGH, HOST, “SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY”: Great, baby, great.
CARLSON: Soon to be our lead-in, when we move to 11:00 next week.
SCARBOROUGH: I'm excited about that.
CARLSON: I can't wait.
And you know her from Air America Radio and her many appearances on this program, Rachel Maddow.
Thanks to you both.
RACHEL MADDOW, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: Thanks Tucker.
First up, a horrible day in Iraq. A roadside bomb killed 14 U.S. servicemen on a road north of Baghdad. It was the worst of attack of this kind since the war began. In Basra, in the south of the country, freelance journalist Steven Vincent was abducted and shot dead only four days after writing an op-ed in “The New York Times” about corruption in Basra.
This terrible news came a day after a group of six Marine Corps snipers was ambushed and killed on the street.
This is ominous, I think, for a couple reasons. Basra has been a pretty stable city, the most stable city south of the Kurdish areas, since the war began. Instability there is bad. But I think even scarier is the fact that two—these two sniper teams, these six Marine snipers, were apparently completely overwhelmed, killed. No backup arrived to them in what was essentially a street battle, kind of a conventional war scene.
I don't think this is a sign that things are improving in Iraq.
SCARBOROUGH: It's war. I hate to say that. It's war. It's brutal.
And, you know, the thing is again, as you know, when I was in Congress, I represented Northwest Florida. We have got six military bases.
SCARBOROUGH: It's interesting. When you talk to people in Manhattan, when I talk through the war with people in Manhattan or Washington, they have one view. And that's the view we shouldn't be there. This is a terrible thing. How can we do this to our men and women in uniform? How can we do this to the family?
You actually talk to the people who are sending their husbands, their wives, their daughters, their sons over there, and they're actually—again, it's not universal, but they understand, this is what they do.
CARLSON: Well, here's a political question, then. OK. OK. Politically, 23 Marines were killed this week. Is that sustainable, politically, do you think, for the president?
CARLSON: If you had 23 Marines killed next week and the week after.
I mean, at some point that's a crisis, isn't it?
SCARBOROUGH: No, no, but the commandant of the Marine Corps is not going to allow 23 Marines to be killed. We're going to learn about what happened in Basra. We're going to learn what happened in western Iraq.
And you know what? It's—it's constantly a moving ball. I mean, we
· we have new challenges every month. This is a new type of war. We're learning things. Our military is learning things that, obviously, we would like to learn without the bloodshed of, my gosh, what is it? I mean, six, seven, eight from Cleveland, 10 from Cleveland? It's just...
MADDOW: No, 20 from Cleveland.
SCARBOROUGH: Twenty from Cleveland. But, again, you know what? This
· it is—it's tragic. But there are tragic stories from Vietnam, from Korea, from World War II, from World War I.
When—you know, the thing is, you don't go into Iraq, you don't go in the Middle East and change this region, change the world on the cheap.
SCARBOROUGH: It just can't be done. And it is ugly. And it's going to remain ugly. And I have got to say, the White House's biggest problem is trying to sell it to America that they could do it on the cheap. But, by 2004 and the election in November of 2004, Americans knew what they were getting with George W. Bush. And they were getting the war in Iraq.
CARLSON: Do you buy that, Rachel?
MADDOW: Well, the six snipers killed on Monday were from the same battalion as the 14 who were killed today, 20 people lost from the same battalion just outside Cleveland.
The losses, I think you can say it's Manhattan that is opposed to the war. But if you go right now and talk to people in those communities outside Cleveland, I think that there's some real heartrending going on.
SCARBOROUGH: Oh, sure there is. Yes.
MADDOW: And the fact is that, actually, a majority of Americans right now think that the administration deliberately lied to the American people to get us into war.
And that's something that is not a—that is not an urban phenomenon; that is not a liberal phenomenon.
MADDOW: That's what a majority of Americans think. That's a real problem.
SCARBOROUGH: You know, though, people—people were talking about this. I mean, we had these debates back in the beginning of 2004, people saying, you know, so many Americans dying over in Iraq, is it sustainable? Will Americans go—bottom line, this is a political calculation.
SCARBOROUGH: I told some people this in the beginning of 2004. It's still the truth. Americans believe that this war is necessary and they would rather the fighting be in Baghdad and in Basra than in Boston and in Baltimore.
CARLSON: Well, speaking...
MADDOW: They don't believe it is necessary. That's just not even borne out by the polls.
MADDOW: That's borne out by last year's election and will be borne out by next year's election.
MADDOW: We'll see in '06.
CARLSON: Next year's election will be the measure of...
MADDOW: That's right.
CARLSON: ... something.
SCARBOROUGH: And last night's election in Ohio.
CARLSON: Next up, the courageous Mayor Michael Bloomberg of New York City, never described that way before.
CARLSON: But now, “The New York Post” reports Manhattan Councilwoman Margarita Lopez has received nearly $100,000 in contributions from Scientologists. Mayor Bloomberg is a supporter of the Ms. Lopez.
But of the Scientologists he said—quote—“I don't think it's real science. Everything I read about it, and that's not a lot, doesn't make a lot of sense to me.” Now, he said this in response to the fact that, apparently, Ms. Lopez steered hundreds of thousands of dollars to a group called New York Rescue Workers Detoxification Project, a Scientology group set up after 9/11 to detoxify people at ground zero with sauna baths and precious oils or something. This guy...
SCARBOROUGH: Don't knock it until you try it, Tucker. I've got to tell you.
CARLSON: I haven't tried it, though I've been audited at Scientology
MADDOW: Essential oils are powering this show right now.
CARLSON: I've never seen a politician attack Scientology, ever.
SCARBOROUGH: You know, it's amazing. This is an amazing thing.
When I was in Congress, actually, there was an issue that came up where I actually supported the religious issue of Scientologists. I think it was in Germany or persecution somewhere. But it amazed me when we started talking about Tom Cruise. I had all these people pop their head into my office: You can't talk about Scientology.
MADDOW: That's right.
SCARBOROUGH: They're dangerous. Scarborough, don't cross Scientologists.
I said, hey, I was their friend.
You cross them once, they're going to screw you. Stay away from them.
SCARBOROUGH: They're going to put snakes in your mailboxes. They—you know, I've never had a snake put in my mailbox by Scientologists. But have you got those warnings? You've been in the media a lot.
CARLSON: Many, many times.
SCARBOROUGH: I've been warned time and time again, don't cross Scientologists.
MADDOW: I think—yes, exactly.
SCARBOROUGH: They're crazy. I just crossed them. They're out of their mind.
SCARBOROUGH: It's—you know, it's L. Ron Hubbard. It's science fiction. I just crossed them.
Honey, check the mailbox tomorrow.
CARLSON: Rachel, Rachel, will you repeat that and give your home address?
MADDOW: Yes, exactly.
MADDOW: I'm not going to give Joe's home address.
I mean, the thing is that I think that the reputation that Scientologists have for knee-capping their opponents is their single biggest P.R. problem right now, that and Tom Cruise on the couches.
MADDOW: But they would be advised to leave Bloomberg alone on here, because everybody in the country expects Bloomberg to mysteriously disappear now that he said it. And that's the thing that is most...
CARLSON: Well, actually, we put a call in today to the Scientology headquarters, asking their spokesman to come on tonight. Never had a problem—I've never had a problem getting them on the phone. They weren't interested.
SCARBOROUGH: Nobody is talking.
CARLSON: Yes. I think it's—they're in crisis mode there.
MADDOW: Glad you asked.
CARLSON: Well, next up, another very creepy situation in Utah. An attorney named Howard Johnson has been sentenced to probation and 90 days in jail for having sex with a 14-year-old boy when Mr. Johnson knew he was HIV-positive. The boy wore a condom during their encounter and has since tested negative for HIV. Mr. Johnson's attorney says his client isn't a predator, but had some—quote—“lapses in judgment.”
The judge, meanwhile, described the hand-slap sentence as about right.
CARLSON: Hey, the issue here—the issue here is, is that this guy was HIV-positive and didn't disclose it to the boy. Now, it just seems to me, 20 years after this epidemic began, we should be at a point where we say, if you knowingly...
SCARBOROUGH: Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait. Wait.
CARLSON: If you knowingly expose someone to a deadly infectious disease, whether it's HIV or any other infectious disease, as far as I'm concerned, it ought to be a felony.
SCARBOROUGH: Forget about—forget about AIDS. That's not the issue. The issue is, a 51-year-old guy had sex with a 14-year-old kid. It doesn't matter.
I mean, certainly the fact that the guy is HIV-positive and didn't—and didn't notify the kid makes it worse.
CARLSON: Well, one is life-changing. One is potentially deadly. So, it seems...
MADDOW: But it was protected sex. They did use a condom. I mean, yes, I totally agree with you. The issue here is that you have got a 51-year-old and a 14-year-old.
MADDOW: That's why he's going to jail for 90 days. It's illegal.
SCARBOROUGH: But 90 days? I mean, you sodom—or the kid sodom—we don't really know who sodomized whom, did we, Tucker?
But, still, a 51-year-old kid picks up a 14-year-old—can I say that on the air, because you're looking at me like I...
CARLSON: You just—you just did. No, I'm looking at you like I don't want to know any more details.
SCARBOROUGH: So, are the Scientologists coming after me? I don't want to know. You know, I don't want to even think about it.
But I can tell you this. That's the issue. A 51-year-old guy has sex with a 14-year-old kid. He gets 90 days in jail. Forget about the HIV. And then we're going to be finding out six months from now that he had sex with another 13-year-old kid, cut him up.
SCARBOROUGH: And people are going to be saying, why didn't we keep him in jail for more than 90 days?
CARLSON: I think that could—that could affect the child for the rest of his life.
CARLSON: If he acquires HIV, it could kill him.
MADDOW: But HIV...
CARLSON: And so one is just much more important than the other.
MADDOW: But, listen, HIV-positive people don't go to jail just for having sex, if they have protected sex. HIV-positive people are allowed to have sex in the world.
CARLSON: If they don't disclose their status to the person with whom they're having sex, knowingly leave that person open to infection, yes, that should be a felony. And it is in some states.
SCARBOROUGH: Don't they have to tell them?
MADDOW: The fact that it was protected sex matters.
If you're going to say that anybody who is HIV-positive is going to be prosecuted regardless...
SCARBOROUGH: Well, no, but don't they have to notify them?
MADDOW: ... regardless of whether or not they use a condom...
SCARBOROUGH: If you're having sex with somebody that is HIV-positive or AIDS, don't they have to tell you that?
MADDOW: If you are held legally liable for not telling somebody you're HIV-positive when you have sex, regardless of whether or not you use a condom...
MADDOW: ... look forward to nobody in the United States ever being tested for HIV again, because then you'll—that's the only way that you can get out of legal liability.
SCARBOROUGH: Wait. So you're saying you can have sex with somebody if you know you have AIDS or HIV-positive and not tell them?
MADDOW: If you're having protected sex, you have not exposed somebody to HIV.
SCARBOROUGH: You don't know that, though. Condoms break.
MADDOW: If you want to...
SCARBOROUGH: Again, I hate to really get down in the bushes here, but condoms break. And when they do...
CARLSON: All right.
MADDOW: If you want to reduce the incidents of HIV in this country, you want people to be tested for HIV.
CARLSON: Actually, I want to know...
MADDOW: So, you don't want to create a legal trap that dissuades people from doing that.
CARLSON: Hold on. I want to have the information. I want to know when I might be exposed to a fatal disease, whether it's HIV or any other disease, whether it's Ebola. I think I have got a right to know.
It's not about stigmatizing people with HIV.
MADDOW: No. It's not about stigma.
CARLSON: It's about knowing when you're being exposed to a deadly disease, period. It has nothing to do with gay rights or anything like that. It's a medical question.
MADDOW: The best way you can get that information is for the most people to get tested. Make that happen.
CARLSON: All right, next up...
SCARBOROUGH: Partners need to know.
CARLSON: ... speaking of advances in science, a brand-new cloning situation. A team of scientists in South Korea has produced the world's first cloned dog. It's now a 14-year-old-week Afghan puppy named Snuppy.
Reportedly frisky and happy like a natural-born dog, the successful cloning expected to be a boon to the cloned pet industry, which doesn't yet exist. The first cloned dog is expected to be on the market a year from now.
They say they're not doing it to clone pets, which actually bothers me. They should be doing it to clone pets. That's the one good thing to come out of this. I mean, the idea that they would clone dogs and use them for medical experiments is horrifying. The idea that they could clone my beloved spaniel, right, and produce another beloved spaniel...
CARLSON: ... is one of the—would be one of the great advances in human history. I mean, that would—that really would be a great leap forward for mankind, trumping the moon walk, as far as I'm concerned.
SCARBOROUGH: You want a cloned dog?
CARLSON: I want to clone my dog, yes, of course.
SCARBOROUGH: Do you really?
MADDOW: But only your dog. Other people's dogs...
CARLSON: No, no, but I'm just saying, I mean, people should—I mean, if you could clone your dog, I mean, I can't imagine a greater step forward for man, truly.
SCARBOROUGH: Isn't that the old slippery slope? Today dogs, tomorrow, like, husbands, wives?
CARLSON: It's a slippery slope that ends in—cloning. You wouldn't clone your dog?
MADDOW: Well, here's my question, though.
SCARBOROUGH: No, I wouldn't.
MADDOW: What's so wrong with cloning? I know that it weirds us out and it feels sci-fi and everything. But what really is wrong with it? The rest of the world is moving ahead with this technology. We're tied up in knots about it in this country. I don't really understand the objections.
CARLSON: Well, because we don't know what effect it would have on the person, on the psyche of the person being cloned, on the person who is...
MADDOW: On the clone?
CARLSON: ... the result of the cloning. That's exactly right.
MADDOW: Right. Yes, in the sense that it seems like a great unknown.
SCARBOROUGH: You know, the one thing...
CARLSON: And that's more significant with humans than it is with dogs.
But, in the case of dogs, the idea that you could, you know, have a
dog that's exactly the same as your own dog who unfortunately died is just
· I mean, that is probably the greatest news ever.
MADDOW: Didn't you ever read “Cujo,” though, the whole reanimated dog being really not like the original dog?
CARLSON: Yes, but that was a novel. In real life, if they can do it to spaniels, it would be worth it.
CARLSON: All right, Rachel, Joe, please stick around. Much more to come.
Here is some of it.
CARLSON (voice-over): A business deal gone sour. Why did cops put the squeeze on these little lemonade vendors?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I was a little sad.
CARLSON: A fish tale about the ones that didn't get away. Is this a sport or an ecological massacre?
License to steal, one man's answer to cutting lines at the DMV.
Plus, breakfast on a wing and a prayer. Wait until you hear what this true believer is cooking up.
It's all ahead on THE SITUATION.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Maybe we should try to keep prayer in our everyday life.
CARLSON: Still ahead, a women snorts cocaine days before giving birth. Her newborn tests positive for the drug and the mother is charged with recklessly endangering her child. Sounds like a cut-and-dried case, right? Maybe not. Details when THE SITUATION returns.
CARLSON: Welcome back. Time for “Op Ed Op Ed.”
Don't know how you spent your day. We spend ours reading editorial pages. We read almost all of them, from which we culled the three most interesting op-eds to which we will respond.
First up, Kelly Lynn Cruz gave birth to a child in Maryland recently. In her 29th week, the child tested positive for cocaine. The mother was promptly charged with child endangerment. The ACLU complained. And so did “The Baltimore Sun.” Here's what they wrote: “Taking cocaine during pregnancy is a bad idea. But so is drinking alcohol, smoking tobacco and abusing prescription drugs. Whether she should have custody of her child is a civil matter that child welfare authorities ought to explore, not a state's attorney.”
It goes on to point out that, in Maryland, a child who has not yet been born is considered—quote—“not a person.” In other words, had she killed the child the day before delivery, not such a big deal. But once a child is born, you know, it's completely different. It points up the absurdity of the kind of arbitrary decision about when a developing child is fully a child.
I mean, look, if a child is born with cocaine in its system, that's child abuse. I mean, what else is it?
SCARBOROUGH: Oh, there's no doubt about it.
And the fact is, there are so many issues where conservatives are on the wrong side when it comes to the mixing of science and politics. But you start talking about abortions, you start talking about late-term abortions, actually, you start talking about first-, second-term abortions, and actually science and technology on our side, because you can see—like, for instance, in the case of the woman that was terminally ill, she gave birth to, what, a 26 -- what -- 26-week-old child?
And, again, viability is earlier. We can look in. You've got 3-D imaging and see children, unborn children. And, again, it's just—again, more and more Americans are believing that, you know, this is a life that deserves protection. If somebody snorts coke right before they deliver, birth, I think they should—I think it's simple.
SCARBOROUGH: ... go to jail.
MADDOW: But I think this is a case where abortion politics have gotten into this case and made it a very bad decision for the prosecutor.
I mean, think about the deterrence at work here. What this prosecutor has said is, if you've used drugs during your pregnancy, make sure you don't give birth in a hospital, because they're going to take your baby away. It's—where's this—if this is a precedent about keeping kids safe, about keeping babies safe, are we also going to jail women who smoke during their pregnancy or women who lose too much weight, who keep their weight down?
MADDOW: This is a situation where, if you were looking about the interests of the kid, you have got to consider the fact of the precedent that you're setting here.
CARLSON: I don't think that's a compelling argument.
The only compelling argument for—I mean, once you have the knowledge, you have to do something about it. The only compelling argument in the interests of the child is, should you take his mother away right after he's born, which I think is a real argument.
MADDOW: And, also, should you encourage women to avoid the hospital if they've done something against their doctor's orders during their pregnancy?
SCARBOROUGH: I don't think we give somebody a free pass on snorting coke when they're eight months pregnant.
MADDOW: No. And nobody is in favor of that.
MADDOW: But the precedent is wrong.
CARLSON: All right.
From that to shark fishing. “The Boston Globe” frets that sharks are being overfished in the world's oceans and that new shark fishing contests are contributing to that.
John W. Grandy writes in today's “Globe”—quote—“On a moral level, the monster shark tournament is shameful. A civilized society should not condone and glorify a contest that involves the mass killing of any living species for sport. It is repugnant and barbaric behavior.”
It should be pointed out that that same contest yielded a 1,200-pound tiger shark, an amazing, an amazing feat. I wish I'd been there.
Look, this is an aesthetic complaint, because anybody who knows anything about fishing knows the real threat to fish in the world's oceans comes from commercial fishing from Russia and mostly Asia, not sport fishing. Actually, sport fisherman, I think, are pretty sensible about the fish they catch and returning most of them. So, you really ought to go after the commercial fishermen, particularly from abroad. But this guy doesn't seem to know or care.
SCARBOROUGH: No, that's ridiculous.
I mean, what's the difference between that and hunting, also? Great images for cable TV shows, showing that 1,200-pound shark. I hope you all put it up. Incredible images.
SCARBOROUGH: But, seriously, you're exactly right. It—you look at the commercial fishermen that are going out. And, again, I live, you know, at Northwest Florida, off the coast. And, again, people that have been fishing in those waters 10, 15, 20, years just say that you've got entire species being depleted, because, again, of commercial fishermen.
Going out and knocking a shark or two around on a weekend while drinking a couple of beers is not going to endanger the environment.
MADDOW: I—fun, yes.
SCARBOROUGH: Lots of fun.
MADDOW: Yes, death.
I live in rural western Mass. And I'm right in the middle of hunting season. I wake up every Saturday and Sunday morning to the sound of gunfire in the middle of the country.
MADDOW: And I respect hunters. I respect hunters who respect what they do.
CARLSON: Well, you're afraid not to, right?
MADDOW: Exactly, because they have guns.
But they respect what they do. They eat what they kill or they sell the meat or they—I mean, that's what they do. But to go out and to kill big, beautiful animals simply for the purpose of displaying their carcasses, when the numbers are down 90 percent, when you're not actually doing anything useful with the animals, I do think it's a little bit gross. And I don't think that most hunters enjoy hunting endangered or threatened species. Sharks are endangered and threatened.
CARLSON: Well, actually, most sharks, tiger sharks, for instance, aren't endangered or threatened. And...
MADDOW: Tiger sharks are threatened.
CARLSON: Maybe in the—maybe in the most broad sense of threatened.
They're certainly not endangered.
CARLSON: And people eat sharks. I mean, I wouldn't.
CARLSON: They call it white fish.
MADDOW: But most...
CARLSON: I think it's disgusting, but some people do.
MADDOW: ... of these derbies aren't for eating the sharks. They're literally for showing the big carcass.
CARLSON: You catch a 1,200-pound tiger shark and don't hang it up by the tail and grin as you stand next to it...
SCARBOROUGH: Come on.
CARLSON: ... you're not an American.
MADDOW: I'm happy for you to do that as long as you eat, all of it.
CARLSON: I will.
SCARBOROUGH: In Florida, in Florida, we have more sharks than we can use. If you think they're endangered, we'll ship them up to Massachusetts.
CARLSON: Yes. Visit Florida. We've got the sharks. What a great...
CARLSON: ... new state motto.
SCARBOROUGH: Put that one on the...
CARLSON: All right.
Still to come, since September 11, the debate has raged. Are mainstream Islamic groups doing enough to combat extremism in their mist? The co-founder of Muslims For America joins us next to discuss it.
Plus, a Massachusetts standoff between two kids running a lemonade stand and a sausage vender. The messy, ugly details when THE SITUATION continues.
CARLSON: Welcome back.
Two weeks ago, I called for a moderate Muslim to appear on this show to talk about the extremist situation in the Islamic community here and abroad. My next guest answered the call.
Joining me now, one of the founders of Muslims For America, Muhammad Ali Hasan.
Mr. Hasan, thanks a lot for joining us.
MUHAMMAD ALI HASAN, CO-FOUNDER, MUSLIMS FOR AMERICA: Hey, it's great to be here. Thanks for having me on, Tucker.
CARLSON: Well, thank you.
ALI HASAN: I'm excited.
CARLSON: We appreciate it.
Now, yesterday, on the BBC, two imams in London—I want to ask you about this first.
ALI HASAN: Sure.
CARLSON: Two imams in London both said in public on television that they approved of the terror attacks of July 7 and the following week and that they both believed there was a jihad against Great Britain and that there ought to be. Should they be thrown in jail for saying things like that? Do you think that's protected speech, first off?
ALI HASAN: Well, at the—at the very least, they need to be checked by the security officials there in Britain.
I'm going to tell you right now, we here at Muslims For America and Muslim groups in Britain, I'm sure, too, if these guys get detained and are questioned, we're not going to oppose it. We encourage it. We want to clean the streets off of these thugs who are hijacking the religion and saying that suicide attacks and jihads against governments are good things. That's not what we support. We want these guys cleaned up.
And Britain should be picking up these guys.
CARLSON: Well, what do you think...
ALI HASAN: We encourage that.
CARLSON: What do you think motivates them? I mean, one of the guys is from a Jamaican family, doesn't have a Middle Eastern background. He's a convert to Islam. He's British-born. What would motivate someone like that to have views like this, do you think?
ALI HASAN: Well, obviously, Tucker, some of it is lunacy.
ALI HASAN: But you know what? Britain needs to change some of its laws.
And I'm going to—I'm going to take a moment here to criticize Britain. The problem going on in Britain today is that they still have massive amounts of redlining. So, if you're a Muslim living in Britain and you apply for a home mortgage, you apply for a loan to open up a small business, chances are, you're not going to get it.
If you apply to the best public universities, even if you have good grades, you'll probably get rejected. Here in America, what—the thing is, it doesn't matter how many immigrants you let into your country. It matters what do you with them afterwards.
Here in America, the majority of Muslims, according to statistics, are making above $50,000 a year. The majority of us are also college educated. And the ones who aren't are quickly on a fast track to getting to that place. The Muslims in Britain, on the other hand, most of them are living in poverty. Most of them are uneducated and not going to college. But it's the same immigrants coming.
ALI HASAN: So, right now, I—and I'll finish real quickly here. Britain needs to take a good look at this. They need to start forcing banks to give loans to ethnic minorities. They need to start forcing schools to accept these people.
CARLSON: Well, wait a second. You're essentially blaming British bigotry for the extremism. I have no question that there's bigotry against Muslims in Britain, probably now more than ever.
But it's hard to believe that that's at the root of it. I mean, after all, there are extremist cells in this country. In Brooklyn, one was just uprooted in Falls Church, Virginia, right outside Washington, D.C. There's no evidence that people, those extremists faced any kind of discrimination at all. So, what are the—what are the ideas that drive these people?
ALI HASAN: Tucker, that's a great point.
And bringing this all home, what happens here is that Osama bin Laden and the people in al Qaeda, they come out and they say Britain, America, Western countries are oppressing Muslims and are fundamentally against Islam. The thing is, that thesis doesn't hold any weight among American Muslims, because most of us are doing well. And we as Americans should be deeply proud that we have opened up our educational and economic opportunities to immigrants.
In Britain, that's not happening. So, when you have an al Qaeda member go to Britain and say, you're being oppressed just because you're Muslim, that thesis does hold some weight in Britain.
CARLSON: Now, there's been, in this country, a pretty—I know you're involved in politics. You know this. There has been a pretty dramatic shift among American Muslims, from the Republican Party to the Democratic Party. I think one of the final polls before Election Day showed that American Muslims were 76 percent for Kerry and about 7 percent for Bush. That—in other words, it changed completely after September 11. What do you think that was about? Why did that change?
ALI HASAN: Don't believe everything you hear in the news, Tucker.
That's what I believe.
The polls that we've done, the statistics we've seen, I would say it's half and half right now. But every statistic that came out and said Muslims are supporting John Kerry or are supporting the Democratic Party, it was all based on qualitative results, not quantitative polling. It was all based on exit polling. We all know from Florida how reliable...
ALI HASAN: ... exit polling is.
So, I wouldn't listen to that. I personally think it's 50/50 right now, Democrats and Republicans.
ALI HASAN: And, of course, our message is—go ahead.
CARLSON: Well, I'm sorry. I just want to know, get right to the
heart of it here
What do you think moderate Muslims in the United States, such as yourself, can do to fight extremism? I mean, you have a huge interest in fighting it. What can—specifically can you do?
ALI HASAN: Well, right now, what we've got to do, is we've got continue saying that suicide attacks are completely against Islam.
If you read the Koran, yes, Prophet Muhammad did engage in war before. But when he did, he made it very clear what the problem was and he always sought the diplomatic route. He never did these sneak attacks and he never condoned killing yourself or blowing yourself up. We've got to—we've got to keep going with that.
But, at the same time, some of these people, Tucker, are so brainwashed and so on the side of lunacy, I don't want my civil rights taken away. But, at the same time I think we need to give more to the CIA, give more to the FBI. And I, as a moderate Muslim, Muslims For America, right now, we're working more with the FBI and CIA, trying to build better relations between the Muslim community here and our intelligence forces.
CARLSON: All right.
ALI HASAN: Because we—we agree. We have to start taking these guys out.
ALI HASAN: We don't want to strip civil liberties. But we're not interested in having these guys on the street.
CARLSON: Good for you.
ALI HASAN: And if I could add something to that...
CARLSON: I'm sorry. I'm sorry. We're completely out of time.
ALI HASAN: OK. All right. No problem.
CARLSON: Muhammad Ali Hasan, I really appreciate your coming on, though. And I hope what you say...
ALI HASAN: I had a great time.
CARLSON: ... resonates throughout this country.
ALI HASAN: Bring me back on, Tucker.
CARLSON: Thank you. I appreciate it.
ALI HASAN: Thank you. Thank you.
CARLSON: Coming up, Pennsylvania Senator Rick Santorum is known for speaking his mind. But can he be—can too much candor be a bad thing?
News on some sinking poll numbers when THE SITUATION returns.
CARLSON: Welcome back to THE SITUATION. Sitting in tonight for Orville Redenbacher, I'm Tucker Carlson.
Let me re-welcome Joe Scarborough, Rachel Maddow. Thank you both.
MADDOW: Thanks, Orville.
CARLSON: You're welcome.
First up, Rick Santorum has taken heat throughout his career. Now it looks like some of his stands may not be sitting well with some voters. The two-term senator from Pennsylvania made headlines when he said Terri Schiavo had been executing and when he compared filibustering Democrats to Hitler, for which he later apologized, and when he found fault with some working mothers.
Now his campaign for a third term could be in trouble. A recent poll
· a couple, actually—shows him trailing his likely opponent by 11 points. This is an interesting story to me. I believe you're interviewing Senator Santorum tomorrow night.
CARLSON: I think we are on Friday night, batting clean up for Joe Scarborough.
Tonight rather, you are. I think Joe Scarborough is terrific. I mean, I think Joe Scarborough's terrific...
SCARBOROUGH: I am.
CARLSON: ... and I also think Rick Santorum is terrific. He is being beaten in the polls anyway by a pro-life Democrat, one of the very—I think the only one running statewide this year, at least that I'm aware of. It tells you something really interesting, that maybe the stranglehold in the Democratic Party on this issue is breaking.
They're bringing ideological diversity into the party. I don't know, if he loses to a pro-life Democrat, I can think of worse scenarios than that.
SCARBOROUGH: No, there's no doubt about it, that there is an ideological divide in the Democratic Party right now. I remember a “Washington Post” article, or a “New York Times” article Christmas Eve, where you actually had Donna Brazile who worked on—you know, whose worked on just about every major Democratic...
CARLSON: Know her well.
SCARBOROUGH: She said in this article that she got tired of going down to Louisiana during Christmas vacations and having her family ask her, “Why do you work for the party that kills babies?” And she said—I mean, again, here one of the top Democratic strategists saying, “We have got to accept people.”
I never understood why a Democratic Party in the Southeast, in the Midwest, why they don't reach out to pro-life candidates? Because, you know, when I was in Congress, would go around and would campaign for other people and would say, “Where's your opponent on guns?” Knowing they'd be against guns. “Where's your opponent on the life issue?”
And one time we stumbled across a guy that said, “Well, he's pro-gun, he's pro-life.” And we both kind of looked him, and we're like, “You're screwed, buddy.” I mean, I don't understand...
CARLSON: It's been a challenge...
SCARBOROUGH: Why is it so hard for the Democratic Party to figure out that's how they win?
MADDOW: Why are we blaming the Democratic—where are the pro-choice Republican candidates? Where are the pro-choice Republican candidates?
MADDOW: What, running right now? There are moderates already in place.
SCARBOROUGH: Look, there's not even a comparison between the close-mindedness of the Democratic Party on this issue.
MADDOW: You're kidding, 200 pro-life...
SCARBOROUGH: Speaking of, Casey—is it not interesting that Casey, when Casey, when he was governor of the state of Pennsylvania, this guy's father, when he was the state of Pennsylvania, not even allowed to speak at the Democratic convention because he was pro-choice.
CARLSON: Wait. Slow down for just a second. I want to ask Rachel one question.
CARLSON: Don't you think—I actually think it's a very positive sign for the Democrats. I'm complimenting the Democrats on this. Are you offended by the fact that they're running an antiabortion candidate in Pennsylvania? What do you think of that?
MADDOW: I do not wish that they were running Bob Casey. I also think that Bob Casey has nothing to do with the fact that Rick Santorum is tanking in the polls right now. The visibility of Rick Santorum in the Republican Party is the best thing that's happened to the Democrats in a very long time.
This is a man who introduced half the country to the term “man on dog.” And they all associate with him.
SCARBOROUGH: I actually don't know what that means.
MADDOW: Have him talk to you about it tomorrow. This is a guy who told working families that they're not smart enough to figure out that they don't really need two incomes.
CARLSON: All right, all right. I'm not sure that (INAUDIBLE)
We're going to move onto sunnier climes...
MADDOW: All right.
CARLSON: ... Hawaii. An elite Hawaiian school has been ordered to say aloha to its Native Americans-only policy. A federal appeals court ruled the Kamehameha schools discriminated by refusing to admit students who were not ethnically native Hawaiian, wouldn't let any in.
The school's established by a $6 billion legacy of a 19th century Hawaiian princess. They have an enrollment of over 5,000 students. A plaintiff in the case will now be allowed to start his senior year at one of the schools in a few weeks.
This is an interesting story, because the Kamehameha schools take no federal dollars. So I actually think they ought to be able to let in whomever they want, based on the criterium they want. I mean, I just don't think the federal government ought to have a hand in this anyway.
Here's my question: Why has it taken all this time to call an obviously discriminatory policy discriminatory? Where was the ACLU on all this? This case was decided based on the 1866 Civil Rights Act, passed a year after the Civil War ended.
Why is this—why haven't liberals challenged this on the grounds that it's racially discriminatory, because it is?
SCARBOROUGH: Rachel, you're a liberal.
MADDOW: The reason is because Bush got Jay Bybee appointed to this court, which has happened during the Bush administration.
CARLSON: No, no, but let's argue the principle of it...
MADDOW: Well, no, you just said why did the...
CARLSON: Yes, the principles. Why aren't they incensed by the principles?
MADDOW: Jay Bybee brought this—listen, you just said that this should be defended as a matter of a private school not taking federal dollars, being...
CARLSON: That's because I'm a far-out libertarian. But I want to know where the liberals think—why aren't they offended by this?
MADDOW: ... Kamehameha school for the same reason the liberals support affirmative action, because that's the reason the Kamehameha school has this policy. So that's—the idea that this is an anti-affirmative action ruling from the Bush administration to appoint a judge. That's what's going on.
SCARBOROUGH: Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Wait a minute. I'm confused here. You're saying that, because they're saying that you've got to be Hawaiian to get in this school, that that is pro-affirmative action?
MADDOW: That that is something that should exist because of the educational deprivations of the native Hawaiians, and because it's a private school.
Well, here's a strange situation. In Portland, Oregon, where the Catholic Church seems to be in favor of birth control, at least in one particular case. That case involves a woman who sued the Portland archdiocese for support after a seminarian fathered her child.
A lawyer for the New York diocese blamed the woman for engaging in unprotected intercourse, seeming to suggest she should have used birth control. The church since agreed to provide support.
Now, this is the perfect opportunity for the Catholic Church, which takes a pro-life stand, to actually be pro-life by supporting the child that resulted from this liaison between the woman and the seminarian, right? They should embrace this child and say, “Yes, we love children. That's why we call ourselves pro-life. We will do anything we can to support you.”
And instead, they blame the woman and say, “You should have used birth control.” I think this is a huge problem. This, and coupled with all the other scandals, maybe it's an obvious point. I think 15 years ago, the people who made this decision, are going to rue it, because it's going to hurt attendance big time.
SCARBOROUGH: It's absolutely shameful. It's hypocritical. Again, you can't preach one thing from the pulpit on Sunday morning and then on Monday in court file papers that says just the opposite. You know, walk the walk, talk the talk.
MADDOW: And the fact that they're fighting child support for the kid in the first place.
MADDOW: I mean, even if that...
MADDOW: ... it would be incredible. But the hypocrisy, you can't use condoms, even to stop AIDS in Africa, but this woman, “She didn't use a condom. We're not going to pay.”
CARLSON: Because it might cost the archdiocese money.
MADDOW: Money, that's right. Exactly.
CARLSON: Because I think that people, the congregants, ultimately, in that church are going to rise up and boot out anybody who would say something like that. And they ought to. It can't come soon enough.
SCARBOROUGH: No doubt about it.
CARLSON: The Catholic Martin Luther.
All right, coming up, strippers on the golf course. An 18-hole round filled with lap dances and still it put most of us up a few strokes. But why are some Illinois residents calling for a mulligan. The answer, needless to say, lies on our “Cutting Room Floor.”
CARLSON: It's time again to welcome the “Outsider,” a man who, during the daylight hours, actively avoids the news, but at night willingly plays devil's advocate to me on a series of the day's most interesting stories. From Las Vegas, Nevada, where the dry desert air has cost him most of his voice but none of his audacity, ESPN Radio and HBO hbo Boxing host Max Kellerman.
MAX KELLERMAN, ESPN RADIO HOST: Tucker, let's face it. The most interesting stories are on the “Cutting Room Floor.” Those are the most interesting.
CARLSON: I agree with that. But I think actually these are pretty darn interesting, too.
KELLERMAN: I think so, too.
CARLSON: Starting with this one. If there's one thing they like in Massachusetts, it's laws. As 9-year-old Dominic Serino and 11-year-old Ryan Decker discovered this weekend, their lemonade stand was shut down by the police after the owner of a nearby sausage stand complained that the boys didn't have the proper vending license.
Public outcry led to the boys reopening for business as part of a merger deal with the sausage vendor. None of that's a joke. All of it is an outrage. This is the kind of tyranny, Max, that sets off a revolution.
I support this. I support the cops shutting down their lemonade stand, because I think it's a perfect recruiting tool for the Libertarian Party. This is the kind of outrageous act that precipitates an uprising from the people who say, “You know what? You got to stop regulating our lemonade stands. No more permits; get off our backs.” And then revolution occurs! So I'm for this.
KELLERMAN: OK, now, wait a minute, should I argue against it now or should I argue for it, because you're only for it because you're actually against it.
CARLSON: That's exactly right.
KELLERMAN: Well, you got me in a real pickle here.
CARLSON: All right. That's true.
KELLERMAN: I'll make an argument that does both.
KELLERMAN: On the one hand, what is selling? Did you ever sell lemonade as a kid?
CARLSON: Never. Not once.
KELLERMAN: I did. And it teaches you business, you know, profit margins and all those sorts of things. But these kids are actually learning a real business lesson, which is the big guy actually takes steps to lessen competition, which is really monopolistic, right?
Like, this sausage vendor wants to have a monopoly over the neighborhood in terms of lemonade sales.
CARLSON: Yes, ah.
KELLERMAN: What they're actually learning, though I find it repugnant, they're actually learning business.
CARLSON: But here's where it falls down. In business, you're not allowed to or you shouldn't be allowed to get people with guns to come in and enforce your business tactic. That's where it falls down.
You want to play rough. You want to cut your prices. You want to undercut them in a retail way, fine. But you can't call the cops to come in and muscle your opponents out. Not allowed.
KELLERMAN: Well, except that these kids didn't have a license. This poor guy actually has to go get a license, has to pay for things. They're hiding behind their age, Tucker. They're just coming out and going, “Oh, we're cute little kids. We don't need a license.”
No, yes, you do need a license! I don't even know what I'm arguing right now.
CARLSON: You're a mean man, Max Kellerman. You're like the Grinch.
All right, speaking of kids, getting much tougher to be a mall rat. Again in Massachusetts, two malls, East Field and Holy Oak are about to adopt rules that prevent teenagers from entering the property without adult escorts. In Holy Oak, the rule will apply to anyone under 18 on weekend nights. In Eastfield, it's anyone under 15 and it's all the time.
Even I can tell you, there's nothing less cool than hanging at the Sunglass Hut by the food court with your mom.
Now, here's the point: Every mall needs loitering teenagers, in the same way bars need smoke and rock concerts need noise. It's part of the ambience. It's not a mall unless you have a lot of disaffected, disenchanted kids under 18 in baggy clothes, smoking Menthol cigarettes, and looking tough. It's not really a mall.
OK, and they go to the mall because it's safe, it feels dramatic, but it's not really. It's a place where they can sort of act out their rebel-without-a-cause fantasies safely. Let them do it.
KELLERMAN: But aren't you the guy who continually argues private enterprise has the right, or should have the right to either serve or not serve whomever they get?
CARLSON: Yes. And I'm not in any way contesting the right of the mall owners to do this. I'm merely contesting the good sense of doing it. And I think it's foolish.
KELLERMAN: Well, it does seem as though they're saying, “Wait, you have a safe place to hang out, you pump up the business, and you're not breaking the law? Well, let's end all that. Let's make you bring your parents.”
But really, Tucker, on the other—that's the one thing your, sense of propriety or your sense in what should and shouldn't be legal, in terms of commercial business.
KELLERMAN: But what about your idea that the parents should always be involved? That when the kids are concerned, more parent involvement is a good thing or a better thing?
KELLERMAN: Doesn't this bring the parents into the situation?
CARLSON: Yes, it does by force, by fiat. Parents ought to be able to decide how much they want to supervise their kids. That's the point. Parents are in charge, not mall owners, not teachers, not the federal government, not even the police, but parents are in charge.
But here is the bottom line, Max...
CARLSON: ... the teenagers, the one with the nose rings, they either hang out at the mall next to the Sunglass Hut or they hang out on your street trying to pick up your daughters. It's better for them to be at the mall.
KELLERMAN: And you have daughters, right?
CARLSON: A number of them.
KELLERMAN: So that explains your position here.
CARLSON: Exactly. Exactly.
All right, now to my favorite scandal in recent history. Alberto Duarte worked as a security guard at the Department of Motor Vehicles in Queens, New York. He was busted there recently for selling answers to the state's driving exam, as well as diplomas that say, “You've taken a five-hour driving course.”
He was selling the answers for as little as $50 a pop. A teacher at the Brooklyn Driving School reacted by saying, and I quote, “That's a hairy situation.”
And it's also a great situation. Now this guy, I should say, worked as a contractor in the DMV even though he had a DUI arrest. So it's just an irony upon irony story.
But here's the point: This guy faces seven years in prison for doing the rest of us a favor. The test itself is a joke. I want to read you a question off it. Here's an actual question off the New York driver's test.
Quote, “What are the colors of the sign which tells you the distance to the next exit of a highway? Yellow and black letters; black with white letters; red with white letters; green with white letters?”
Or, e, who cares? A lot of these questions are pointless. They don't help. Knowing the answers doesn't make you a better or worse driver; it just saves time. Therefore, Mr. Duarte, you're an American hero.
KELLERMAN: But then again, you only need to get like four out of 100 right to get your learner's permit.
Look, driving a vehicle is a serious thing. It's operating heavy machinery. My mother has a driver's license, OK? This woman can't cross the street on her feet without, you know, having an anxiety attack. Whoever gave her that license should be taken to jail.
CARLSON: Probably Mr. Duarte.
KELLERMAN: Right, this is serious. Driving a car is serious business and it should not be taken lightly. There's a reason they give those hard standardized tests.
No, really, this should not be taken lightly at all, Tucker. It's a very serious subject.
CARLSON: But the DMV itself takes it lightly. Let me read you one last question: “If an approaching train is near enough or going fast enough to be a danger, you must: slow down and proceed with caution; cross the tracks; or not cross the tracks?”
OK, if you can't figure out that you're not supposed to race a speeding freight train across the tracks, you shouldn't be—I don't know, you're not an adult. You shouldn't be licensed to cross the street on foot.
KELLERMAN: What if you really need to get where you're going as fast as possible?
CARLSON: I don't think that's on there.
KELLERMAN: But I'm just saying. So maybe you speed across the tracks.
Well, listen, of course these tests are silly, but you can't—the DMV, I think, is too loose in terms of how they give out licenses. There are too many people with licenses on the road, Tucker. We don't want more. We want fewer.
CARLSON: Maybe so, but we also don't want to wait in line. And that's why Mr. Duarte, you get THE SITUATION's “Hero of the Week” award. Thank you for all you do.
And thank you, Max Kellerman, I appreciate it.
KELLERMAN: Thank you, Tucker.
CARLSON: Coming up, pancakes are good, but when eating a flapjack, or a hotcake, or a short stack becomes a religious experience, it's safe to eat it right off the “Cutting Room Floor.” Don't miss it.
CARLSON: It's that time again, time to sweep up the “Cutting Room Floor.” All the odds and ends of news we couldn't bring you, but now we can. Willie Geist is here to do it.
WILLIE GEIST, PRODUCER: Tucker, a quick news bulletin off the top. Jennifer Wilbanks, the runaway bride, wedding is back on, a week from Friday, August 12th. They better put a tracking device on her right about now.
CARLSON: Let me say—this is appeal directly to Ms. Wilbanks—please invite us. We'll come.
GEIST: She's registered at Pottery Barn, by the way.
CARLSON: Yes, she is.
President Bush has begun his annual summer vacation, and it's one for the record books. The president will spend the better part of five weeks at his ranch in Crawford, Texas. That marks the longest presidential vacation since Richard Nixon 36 years ago.
The White House is quick to point out the very busy president won't be just chopping wood and riding his bike until Labor Day. He'll he will be doing other things, as well.
GEIST: Of course he will. He must have accumulated a ton of comp days, or worked something out with H.R., because five weeks is a little longer than we get around here. Good for him.
CARLSON: I don't think they have H.R. at the White House. That's like the good thing about being president. You don't have to deal with H.R. That's right.
Well, it's been a while—too long, if you ask me—since we've had someone see a religious figure in his breakfast food. Well, the wait is over, thanks to Tony Quinn of Forest Hills, Maryland. Mr. Quinn was whipping up some pancakes when he noticed that one of them had taken the shape of a praying angel.
Quinn believes the pancake is a sign from God. He showed it to his pastor.
GEIST: You know what else that's a sign of, Tucker? Tony doesn't know how to make a pancake. Look at that thing. Tony, we're going for a circle. Pancake, round, circle, not form of angel.
CARLSON: Yes, you've got to put—there's not enough egg in that.
GEIST: That is a sign.
CARLSON: It's also way too thick and fluffy, not to be mean.
All right. Well, this year's award for most elaborate scheme to get out of unhappy marriage definitely goes to Teddy Akin of Ocala, Florida. Mr. Akin was charged this week with filing a false report after he told his wife he killed a hitchhiker, much like the ones you see here, and dumped the body in the woods.
He was hoping his wife would be so horrified, she'd leave him. Instead, she called the police, who sent dogs and an air unit to look for the body of the imaginary hitchhiker.
GEIST: Oh, my goodness.
I know where this guy was going...
CARLSON: So great.
GEIST: ... but he went a little too far over the top. Just tell her she's fat or something. She'll leave you.
CARLSON: Or you say, “We've grown apart,” or, “It's not what it once was,” or, “It's not you, it's me.”
GEIST: Murdering hitchhikers, that's not the way to go with the alibi.
CARLSON: Such a great story. I love that.
Well, they say you should always listen to your mother, unless, of course, she tells you to sell crystal meth to raise her bail. The 24-year-old Illinois woman has been charged with producing methamphetamines as a way to make money to bail her mom out of jail. The plot was the mother's bright idea, of course, and now mom and daughter will be reunited in the slammer.
GEIST: No problem at all. Just send another family member out to sell some crank and you'll be out in no time. You know, the mother was also in for drug possession, so she's obviously not passing her life lessons on too well.
CARLSON: This is the cycle we read about, Willie.
GEIST: It is.
CARLSON: Yes, it is.
Well, golf is often called the gentleman's game, but some golfers in suburban Chicago have turned it into a gentleman's club game the other day. This home video shows golfers partying with strippers while they play a round at Country Lakes Golf Course. A local strip joint rented the course for a day, and dancers put on 18-hole show, which included golf cart lap dances.
CARLSON: Police investigating the event. What kind of investigating are they doing?
GEIST: Yes, I'll bet they're investigating, reviewing the tape over and over again to look for the culprits.
I'm not up on my golf etiquette. I haven't played in a long time, but I'm pretty sure the three-way lesbian action in the sand trap is considered inappropriate. I don't know. I...
CARLSON: That would get me to the golf course. I've never golfed, but I would.
GEIST: But don't try that at your country club.
CARLSON: Don't have one, but if I did, I wouldn't. Good point.
Willie Geist, thank you, as always.
That's THE SITUATION for tonight. Thanks for watching. Quick reminder, this program moves next week Monday to 11:00 p.m. Eastern live every night. Stay tuned now for “SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY” with Joe Scarborough, who you just saw here—Joe?
JOE SCARBOROUGH, HOST, “SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY”: That's big, Tucker. You're going to be batting clean-up for everybody. We're looking forward to it. And I had a great time with you on THE SITUATION.
Now, tonight, new charges from Natalee Holloway's mom, as the angry mother returns to Aruba with both barrels blazing. She's going after investigators and talking about how the Dutch boy duped her daughter the night she vanished.
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