updated 8/19/2005 10:39:21 AM ET 2005-08-19T14:39:21

Guest: Kevin Bright, Kevin O‘Connor, Kim Parker, Randall Kamm, Larry Hatteberg, Amy Davis, Jason Davis, Nan Davis, Steve Osburn, Michelle Borin, Arlyn Smith, Charlie Otero, Danny Otero, Carmen Montoya, Robert Beattie, Pat Brown

RITA COSBY, HOST:  An incredible day here.  We‘re coming to you LIVE AND DIRECT from here at the courthouse in Wichita, Kansas.  Tonight, a monster and admitted sociopath, a serial killer, is going away for life after a sickening and outrageous speech only a few hours ago.


DENNIS RADER, CONFESSED SERIAL KILLER:  (INAUDIBLE) crimes I‘ve committed (INAUDIBLE) continued (INAUDIBLE) as a monster.  Brought the community, family, the victims dishonor, and so—and it‘s all self-centered (ph) (INAUDIBLE) I would call a sexual predator.  Today is my final judgment.


COSBY:  Well, the families say he delivered a pathetic apology.  The BTK killer, Dennis Rader, had the nerve to compare himself to the 10 innocent people that he brutally killed.  But the victims‘ families are the ones who get the last word in this 30-year nightmare.  They got a chance to tell Rader, the judge and everyone else about the people that they lost and what they thought should happen to Rader before Rader spoke on his own behalf.

In just a few minutes from now, we‘re going to hear from the only man who survived an attack by the BTK killer, Kevin Bright.  He joins me live.  But first, here are some of the unbelievable moments that we all witnessed inside this courthouse.


RADER:  Joseph Otero was in the Air Force.  I was in the Air Force.  He was a husband.  I was a husband.  So our threads are close.

CHARLIE OTERO, RELATIVES KILLED BY BTK:  Despite Dennis Rader‘s efforts to destroy my family, we survive, stronger and closer now more than ever.  As far as I‘m concerned, when it is all done, Dennis Rader has failed in his effort to kill the Oteros.

RADER:  Julie Otero was a lot like my wife, a loving mother, raised kids.

CARMEN MONTOYA, FAMILY KILLED BY DENNIS RADER:  Rader, when you took away my mother, you took someone who meant a lot to a lot of people.  My mother loved life, her friends, a good laugh, dancing with my dad.

RADER:  Josephine, she would have been a lot like my daughter at that age.

MONTOYA:  My sister, Josie—you should not have had—you should not have the privilege of even saying name.  It‘s amazing to me that you could be so cruel to a sweet, beautiful child.

RADER:  Joseph Otero, too (ph) -- he was just like me at one time, a boy and a dog.

MONTOYA:  His name was Joey, not Junior.  But I guess it really doesn‘t matter to you.  You took away the most lovable, fun, outgoing, friendly and adorable little brother anyone could ever imagine.

RADER:  Kathryn Bright—she spent time at her grandparents‘ farm. 

Well, I did, too, as a kid.

KEVIN BRIGHT, SURVIVED ATTACK, SISTER KILLED BY DENNIS RADER:  My sister, she suffered so much.  She—it was brought out that she fought—was quoted as a hellcat.  And I‘m so proud of her for that because I knew, you know, she had that in her.

RADER:  Shirley, she was choir (ph), mother, a very beloved mother.  And I took her life.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Shirley Vian was my mother.  I‘d just like for him to suffer for the rest of his life.

RADER:  Nancy Fox, she was a wonderful person, and I did—I did track her just like a predator.  She was a wonderful young lady.

BEVERLY PLAPP, SISTER KILLED BY DENNIS RADER:  I cannot begin to explain to you—there are not words to make you understand—what losing Nancy has meant to me and my family.  And I have some afterlife scenarios for him.  On the day he dies, Nancy and all of his victims will be waiting with God and watching him as he burns in hell!

RADER:  Marine Hedge, she was a neighbor, one I walked by and waved to, a gardener.  I loved to garden flowers.

ROD HOOK, MOTHER-IN-LAW KILLED BY DENNIS RADER:  I would only ask the court provide the maximum sentence allowed by law to this monster that created this.

RADER:  Probably, there were a lot of people.  I didn‘t know Vicki Vian very much, although I walked by her placed and listened to the piano.  I appreciate music.  That‘s one thing I always wanted to learn was piano. 

And I took her life.

STEPHANIE CLYNE, MOTHER KILLED BY DENNIS RADER:  It‘s been almost 19 years now that my brother and I had the most important woman in our life taken away from us.  It‘s not fair that her three grandbabies will never get to know her.  My mother begged for her life, yet he showed no remorse.  He saw that she had a family and a little boy right there in the house with her, yet he continued with his sick plan.

RADER:  Dolores Davis, she loved animals.  I have a great fondness for animals.  I have pets, and I know she had them.

JEFF DAVIS, MOTHER KILLED BY DENNIS RADER:  For the last 5,326 days, I have wondered what it would be like to confront the walking cesspool that took my mother‘s precious life.  As of today, you no longer exist.  Today, the focus finally moves out from under the shadow, and your depraved shadow, hell‘s (ph) darkness, into the light of your victims and their families.  Speaking for my mother, with us in spirit, for my own family, and I hope for the entire family of survivors here today, we dedicate this day to the memories of those who cannot be with us.


COSBY:  Well, Kevin Bright is the only survivor of a BTK attack.  Kevin was shot twice by Rader during a home intrusion but miraculously survived.  It is incredible.  His sister, Kathryn Bright, was not as lucky.  She was stabbed to death in their home in 1974, and she was just 21 years old.


BRIGHT:  I‘m glad I was there that day because of what Dennis Rader, in his fantasy world, was going to do to her, probably, if I wasn‘t there.  And I‘m just so thankful that I was there and could, you know, prevent him from doing anything and...


COSBY:  And we‘re joined now by Kevin Bright.  Kevin, people hear your story.  It‘s incredible.  Where were you shot by Dennis Rader?

RADER:  I was shot right above the mouth up here, and then really twice up here.  First one grazed me, and then the second one went in right here.

COSBY:  Yes, I can actually—I can see the indentation.  Damage, lots of nerve damage, all these years?

RADER:  Yes, lots of nerve damage.

COSBY:  How does it feel for you to know that this man is now going to spend rest of his life behind bars for what he did to you and your sister?

BRIGHT:  That‘s where I want him to be.  I‘m for the death penalty, but since doesn‘t pertain—you know, the law wasn‘t in effect then—and what I‘ve said is that my sister got the death penalty 31 years ago, and he got to go on with his life now 31 years.  And you know, he‘s married and has two children and a career, and she—you know, my sister and all the other victims, their life is over.  You know, they had teachers (ph), and - you know, that‘s—that‘s the hard part.

COSBY:  You called him a monster.  I think a lot of people agreed with this.  What kind of a man is Dennis Rader?

RADER:  I don‘t call him a man.  I call him, like you said, a monster, evil personified.  He‘s—you know, there‘s no words.  He tried to sugarcoat his, you know, reasoning, and, you know, it was just all hollow.  That‘s why we all got up and walked out.

COSBY:  Yes, you did.  I noticed a lot of people, when he started talking, you didn‘t want to listen, right?

BRIGHT:  No.  (INAUDIBLE) I know it was just a facade of, you know, continuing his fantasy world, you know, so I didn‘t want to hear it.

COSBY:  Let‘s talk about, unfortunately, what he did April 4, 1974.  You and your sister come home.  Dense Rader‘s waiting in the house.

BRIGHT:  Right.

RADER:  He strangles you, shoots you, right, once, and then goes and strangles your sister.  He forces to you tie her up, is that correct?

RADER:  Yes.  That‘s what he did at first.  He had me tie her up, and then he separated us in separate rooms.  And then he—you know, he had me tied up and laid me down on the floor, and then he left.  Then he came back in, and he started strangling me.  And I broke loose.

COSBY:  And he shot you again, right?

BRIGHT:  Well, I broke loose.  I broke loose and jumped up and got ahold of the gun and—wrestled him for it.  And I got ahold of the trigger and pulled the trigger twice, and it didn‘t go off.  And then he shot me the first time.

COSBY:  It‘s just stunning and amazing that you got away.  Where the heck did you and all the other victims that I saw today, that I‘ve been proud to get to know these last two days—where did you get the strength to be up there and to talk and look at him in the face today?

BRIGHT:  Today?  Well, first of all, God gave me the strength, and then just the memory of my sister.  You know, I‘m there for her and to represent my family and, you know, speak for the other victims, you know, what we lost, and not to give Dennis Rader any glory.  He wants the attention, but these last two days have shown what a monster, evil—you know, it‘s just unbelievable, the things they‘ve brought out about him—you know, his secret life.

COSBY:  Well, I think your sister and I know all the other victims‘ families are very proud of you getting up there today, and I give you a lot of courage and a lot of prayers for you in the coming days, too.

BRIGHT:  Yes.  Like I say, it‘s about her.  It‘s about the victims. 

It‘s not any other reason that I wanted to do that.

COSBY:  It was a day to honor them.

BRIGHT:  Right.

COSBY:  And Kevin, I‘m glad you‘re with us, too.

BRIGHT:  Thank you.

COSBY:  Thank you very much.

Well, the team prosecuting BTK wants to make sure that while he is in prison, he does not have access to any material that he can use to live out his twisted fantasies.


NOLA FOULSTON, DISTRICT ATTORNEY:  We would ask that he cannot possess or receive or create any typed or hand-written or computer-generated documents that describe sexual or murderous fantasies or intent, that he not be able to possess or receive or create inanimate objects that could be used to resemble human or animal forms, that he not be permitted to view or listen or read any media press story or report regarding the murders that are the basis for his conviction.


COSBY:  Well, we‘re joined now by two of the people who are responsible for putting Dennis Rader behind bars, two of the deputy district attorneys who did a great job here, Kim Parker and also Kevin O‘Connor.



COSBY:  Even though it was a bittersweet day, but do you both feel justice was served, at least?



COSBY:  Do you wish there was a death penalty?


O‘CONNOR:  Oh, yes.

COSBY:  For somebody—if there‘s ever a case—you and I talked earlier, Kevin...

O‘CONNOR:  Yes, I think I said earlier this—this monster is the poster child for the death penalty, and it‘s a reason why a state shouldn‘t get caught without one.  I think even people who are opposed to the death penalty can say, Well, this—this person deserves it.  But he did receive the worst penalty that he could.

COSBY:  What‘s ahead for Dennis Rader, Kim?

PARKER:  A long life of incarceration, and hopefully, he is denied the privileges that he‘s had to be able to terrorize anyone, including those individuals that have to live with him in the prison facility or deal with him as staff.

COSBY:  Has he been moved yet to El Dorado (ph)?


COSBY:  I know, earlier in the day, you and I, you were actually, signing the order, both of you.  But it‘ll happen tomorrow morning, you believe?

PARKER:  Sometime tomorrow.

COSBY:  Will he be in separate population?  What can we expect for him?

O‘CONNOR:  For the first 30 days, from what we understand, they do, when they evaluate where you‘re going to be.  Then he will be in isolation for at least that time.  And—but after that, the Kansas Department of Corrections makes decisions on where he should be housed and how.

COSBY:  You know, one of the things that stunned me—and you and I talked about this earlier—just the arrogance of this man, the belligerence of him, and just sort of the audaciousness.  Here was a moment when you should be pleading for your life, pleading for forgiveness before these beautiful families, and yet he talked about himself.  I want to show a little clip of what he had to say earlier in court.


RADER:  I tried to realize—work with the police department, work with my defense and tried to realize my faults.  Honesty?  Again, I think I‘ve cooperated with the police, as well (INAUDIBLE)  I understand there was some smoke blowing, and that was probably my demise, the afterlife, the smoke, the thing about Jackie Almond (ph) was smoke.  BTK story early, parts of it are smoke.  The problem is, I blew so much smoke that now nobody knows facts from fiction.  And that‘s basically my demise.


COSBY:  You know what‘s amazing, Kim?  Here he is, here‘s a moment to say, I am sorry, and he‘s trying to correct the record.

PARKER:  Exactly.  You know, speaking of audacious, the tears in that courtroom that were real were when the victims were speaking, when the victims‘ families were speaking.  And the times that have been credited to him for tearing up is when he was trying to explain how he bonded with these victims.  There were no real tears from Rader...

COSBY:  Crocodile tears?

PARKER:  ... here today.

COSBY:  Real quick, Kevin.  Are you looking to see if there‘s any crimes that he may have committed after ‘95, when the death penalty came in?  Is there a possibility he may have committed something where he could be death penalty-eligible?

O‘CONNOR:  Well, there‘s no evidence of that.  This is a man who kept detailed records of everything he did, even places where he went to eat and movies that he saw.  He‘s a freak and—in that—in that way.

COSBY:  You believe he stopped in ‘91.

O‘CONNOR:  He gave a very detailed list.  He said repeatedly that 10 was it.

COSBY:  Is it possible...

O‘CONNOR:  He said he wishes there were more.

COSBY:  Well, is it possible that this man was crafty and even knew until the end, you know, Look, these ones are death penalty-eligible?  Maybe he‘s covering something up.

O‘CONNOR:  Well, if he is and it comes to light, we‘ll be certain and be happy to prosecute him.

PARKER:  We‘ll be right there.

COSBY:  All right.  Well, both of you, good job.  I know it was a tough case.  And we appreciate both of you being with us tonight.

O‘CONNOR:  Thank you.

PARKER:  Thank you.

COSBY:  Thank you very much.

And coming up, everybody, the mask, the bindings, the sick details of Dennis Rader‘s deadly fetish.


RADER:  I posed myself in bondage pictures with this mask, and you‘ll find those in my—in my stash.


COSBY:  Plus: Who would want to live in the home where this serial killer obsessed over his perverted fantasies?  You‘re going to meet the new owners.  Incredible.  It‘s coming up on LIVE AND DIRECT.



MONTOYA:  Although we have never met, you have seen my face before.  It is the same face you murdered over 30 years ago, the face of my mother, Julie Otero.


COSBY:  One of the most incredible days in court.  And that was Carmen, of course, who lost her family at the hands of the BTK killer.  The Otero family were Rader‘s first victims.

And joining us now are Charlie Otero, Danny Otero, his sister, Carmen, and also their attorney, Peter Gorski.

Charlie, you started it off.  How tough was it for you to be in this courtroom today and see this man who did these horrible things to your family?

CHARLIE OTERO:  It wasn‘t tough at all to be there.  I knew that today was the end of this whole Rader story, and it was my privilege to be here.  And it wasn‘t hard at all.

COSBY:  And you did it for your family and your brother and your sister, right?

CHARLIE OTERO:  I did it for my whole family here present, living and dead.

COSBY:  Carmen, when you got up—I just said this to you—I bawled when you got up.  It was a very—it was very emotional.  You had a lot of anger, a lot of emotions.

MONTOYA:  I was a lot angrier than I thought I was going to be, but I guess 30 years of bottled up, waiting to talk to this person, I guess, being, finally came out so...

COSBY:  You know, Dennis Rader—it was the first time I saw him wipe some tears.

MONTOYA:  Well, it‘s about time.

COSBY:  Yes.  That‘s the least he can do for what did he to your family.

MONTOYA:  That‘s right.

COSBY:  Are you happy with the punishment?

MONTOYA:  I am just so happy he‘s off the streets.  He‘s going to be behind bars.  Wichita can finally sleep.  I‘m very satisfied.

COSBY:  Danny, what did you think of his speech?  You know, I‘ll tell you, I was angry, watching it, for you guys because I thought it was preposterous.  I thought it was self-serving and hollow.

DANNY OTERO, RELATIVES KILLED BY BTK:  We were laughing.  It was—it was unreal.  The man was babbling.  I don‘t even think he understood what he was trying to convey.  It was strictly off the wall.  We did not even make any sense out of it.

COSBY:  And one of the thing, he compared himself to some of the victims, to some of your family members.  I thought it was outrageous.  At one point, you know, he talked about your dad.  He said, Look, I was in the Air Force, like Joseph Otero.  I love dogs, like your brother.

DANNY OTERO:  That was disgusting.  That was disgusting.

COSBY:  I thought—what—how did you feel when you heard that?

DANNY OTERO:  I was—I was—that made me mad.  This man didn‘t even have the right to use our name or compare himself in any way, shape or form.  That‘s just how crazy he is.  He was trying to justify something, trying to make comparisons.  He didn‘t know what he was talking about.

COSBY:  I agree.  And Charlie, what do you hope happens to him in prison?  Is life in prison good enough for this guy?

CHARLIE OTERO:  I hope he becomes someone‘s girlfriend.

COSBY:  He‘ll be brutalized in prison, like he brutalized your family.

CHARLIE OTERO:  I‘m not going to say that.  I just hope he finds a lover.

COSBY:  And how did you feel hearing him today, Charlie?

CHARLIE OTERO:  I felt like he has no idea of the sense of grief and pain that he really brought forward, and he was only looking for some pity.  He wasn‘t getting any from any of the victims‘ families.  And it‘s a story that is over for us, but his story is just beginning, as far as, like, his new prison life he talked about.

COSBY:  Well, we‘re going to keep all of you in our prayers.  And I commend all of you for coming forward and speaking out today.  You did your family proud by coming and speaking.

MONTOYA:  Thank you very much.

COSBY:  Thank you.  Thank you, all of you, very much.

And what goes on inside the mind of a serial killer today?  During his statement in court, we got a few glimpses inside Dennis Rader‘s disturbing double life.  Just what kind of a sicko was he?  Listen to what he had to say about the investigators in the case.


RADER:  Even though I‘m a criminal, I think you have to appreciate the police department.  They‘ve done a lot of work.  Even though it took a long time, they gathered evidence.  They had that evidence.  And when they got the key suspect, they zeroed in on him very rapidly.  So they had the dedication at it, like Mr. Weinwar (ph), for all those years.  So great.  So I think Sedgwick County really has a good police force.


COSBY:  Well, Pat Brown is a criminal profiler.  She is LIVE AND DIRECT tonight from Washington.  And also joining us shortly, we have Robert Beattie.  He is the author of a new book on the BTK strangler is Wichita—“Nightmare in Wichita: The Hunt for the BTK Strangler.”  There it is.  Thank you very much.  We appreciate it.  It‘s been a busy night for everybody here.

I want to show quickly a real quick comment.  While Rader talked about his victims, he did not forget about a lot of other things.  He talked about a number of different things.  And here‘s one of the comments that he had earlier in court today.


RADER:  Family, the last victims, I don‘t even start with them.  You know, they‘re still supportive a little bit.  My wife‘s gone on and divorced.  She‘s trying to stay out of harm‘s way.  Since my kids are away, I don‘t get much letters or anything from them.  But they‘re basically supportive.


COSBY:  Incredible.  You know, what kind of a monster, what kind of a person is he?  You‘ve analyzed him for a long time, Robert.

ROBERT BEATTIE, AUTHOR, “NIGHTMARE IN WICHITA”:  Well, 20 years ago, FBI profiler Roy Hazelwood (ph) said whoever BTK killer is, he‘s a narcissistic sexual sadist, and that‘s what we‘ve seen in these hearings.  Dr. John Allen (ph) was brought in on the Ghostbuster (ph) investigation. 

He‘s a psychologist.  He said whoever BTK is, he wears the mask of sanity.  He‘s not recognized as the sadistic killer he is.  And we‘ve seen that.  Dennis Rader was never looked at as a suspect.

COSBY:  Well, that‘s what was so scary, I think.  You know, Pat, he was an ordinary guy.  I went to his house yesterday.  And I think that‘s what‘s so scary is that he really lived this double life.

PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER:  Well, actually, Rita, every one of the serial killers out there has this similarity, that they go through life, that they don‘t commit crimes every day, so they go through life pretending to do what everybody else does.  Well, they do what everybody else does.  It‘s just they have a big fantasy life and a little secret hobby.

What‘s really interesting about some of the things that Rader said was that—for example, when he‘s going for the pity plea, people say he‘s trying to get pity from the families.  He is not.  He is trying—he‘s trolling for his new victims.  Those are people out in the world who will pity him, who will then support him while he‘s in prison.  So he‘s still playing his little games, just like he‘s always done.

COSBY:  He sure has.  And in fact, at one point, Rader seemed to be asking the court a whole bunch of things, asking for sympathy, almost saying that he wasn‘t a bad man.  I want to show everybody, this is how he talked about the deputies on duty at the local jail.  Take a listen.


RADER:  First, the officers, patrol officers, call them deputies down there, (INAUDIBLE) deputies for—they didn‘t know me.  I didn‘t know them.  But they—they finally opened up and they became human, and I think they realized I was human, too.


COSBY:  You know, Robert, he‘s making it sound like the jailers are his pals, that this is a wonderful guy who cooperated.  No such thing.

BEATTIE:  No, he‘s just mistaking proximity for being friends.  He thinks he‘s a law enforcement officer and he‘s just part of this.  And he‘s not.

COSBY:  Yes, what do you make of that, Pat?  Pat, what do you make of that, too, his making it sound like he‘s one of the guys in law enforcement?

BROWN:  Exactly.  Well, he—he is going to be in jail for a long, long time, and he wants the jailers to be cooperative with him.  He wants them to be his friends.  And guess what?  A lot of jailers do get along with serial killers in prison.  They do become buddy-buddy.  So he‘s playing for his future.

COSBY:  Well, let me talk about at least the victims‘ families because finally, after being so self-serving, basically, for half an hour, at the very end of his statement, Rader finally had this message for the victims‘ families.


RADER:  Finally, (INAUDIBLE) apologize to the victims‘ families.  There‘s no way that I can ever repay them.


COSBY:  It was incredible, just how long it took him.  And in fact, I want to show—this, I think, the next comment, goes right to the heart of Dennis Rader.  During the press conference—this is with the victims‘ families—reporters asked about those pictures that were shown in court of Dennis Rader tying himself up.  Here‘s what the son of Dolores Davis had to say.


JEFF DAVIS, DOLORES DAVIS‘S SON:  Just one more evidence of luck.  The guy is as lucky as he is stupid, and he just happened to not hang himself.  But if you‘re into that that much, he should have probably died a long time ago.  But as far as what it says about his mind—what can you say?


COSBY:  Pat, it is incredible.  As we looked at that picture—in fact, if we can go back to that picture—here he is hanging upside-down.  This is a bondage picture.  He‘s naked.  There were other scenes where he was actually looking in a mirror with a mask on.  What does this say about this sick mentality of Dennis Rader?

BROWN:  Well, he‘s doing autoerotic sex.  That‘s very popular around the country, even for non-serial killers.  It‘s a way to express yourself, and he‘s enjoying that.  And he took it out on the victims, as well.  It‘s some sex playing.  He‘s probably even envisioning what he‘s doing to his victims when he‘s doing that to himself because that‘s part of his fantasy life.  And all serial killers have a very vivid fantasy life.  He‘s not that abnormal for a serial killer.

COSBY:  Really quick, Bob.  Five seconds.  Closing thought.

BEATTIE:  Wichita is very happy this guy is gone.  He‘s gone.  He‘s out of our lives.  The war is ended.  The nightmare is over.

COSBY:  Absolutely.  And great job to both of you.  And I know you‘ve been following him for years, and that there‘s a lot of relief on your end, too.

BEATTIE:  Yes.  Thank you.

COSBY:  Thank you very much.  Pat, thank you, too.

BROWN:  My pleasure, Rita.

COSBY:  And coming up: BTK didn‘t just terrorize his victims, he had his entire home town on edge.  Dennis Rader actually said who he had targeted as his next victim, a murder he never got to commit.

And how do you restrain yourself when you‘re in the same room with the person who killed your grandmother?  That‘s coming up next LIVE AND DIRECT.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  If I wanted revenge, I would pray that you develop a lingering illness from which you suffer for many, many years before you ultimately choke to death one lonely night on your own vomit.



COSBY:  Dennis Rader is going to spend the rest of his life in prison for the brutal and sick crimes that he committed as the BTK Killer.  Tonight, we‘re going to show you where he‘s headed.  Reporter Randall Kamm with the NBC affiliate KSN here in Wichita, he was in the courtroom for the sentencing phase. 

And, Randall, before we get started, I want to just get a little insight, first of all, about the warped mind of Dennis Rader.  Everybody, take a listen to this. 


UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  He put the mask on.  He‘d wear that.  He‘d also take pictures of it, so he looked more female and that he looked like he was in distress, like he was a victim, or that he was posing as one of his own victims. 


COSBY:  What was the reaction, Randall, in the courtroom when that played?  My jaw dropped when I heard just this sick fantasy. 

RANDALL KAMM, KSN, WICHITA, KANSAS:  I was sitting between Jeff Davis and Dennis Rader.  And I looked at Jeff Davis several times as that was being shown. 

COSBY:  Whose mother, of course, was killed. 

KAMM:  That‘s right, Dolores Davis‘s son.  And he looked down several times, seemed very upset.  I also looked at Amy Davis, who is Dolores Davis‘ granddaughter.  She also looked down several times when that photo and others were shown.  You know, that mask not only did he wear, but he also put it on Dolores Davis during he killed her. 

COSBY:  What was the reaction of Dennis Rader when all this stuff was coming?  What I thought was interesting, in his own statement, he argued he was angry that some of the photographs, his, quote, “personal stash,” was removed by cops. 

KAMM:  I‘m sure he was embarrassed.  There was another photo where he was shown in lingerie that he had stolen from Dolores Davis.  He put it himself in some bondage and took a picture in that, as well. 

COSBY:  Did the tears that we saw from Dennis Rader, which a lot of people think were far from enough, did they seem genuine at all from where you were looking? 

KAMM:  I saw him blot his eyes.  I don‘t know if those were genuine tears or not.  It‘s hard to say. 

COSBY:  You are familiar with El Dorado Prison, which we understand he‘s going to be headed out tomorrow.  Give us a sense of where he‘s been staying here in the jail and the difference of when he goes to El Dorado.

KAMM:  Well, he‘ll stay here in the county jail, again, tonight.  And then at 6:00 in the morning, I understand, he‘ll go to El Dorado.  When he gets there, he‘ll go through a 12-day evaluation to determine which of three prisons here in Kansas that he‘ll stay in on a permanent basis.

He‘ll also be evaluated to see if he‘s a maximum security inmate or a special management inmate.  The difference there being, if he‘s special management, he‘ll get more protection from other inmates, being a special prisoner, as he will be.

I can also tell you this:  His home that he lived in the Wichita area, in the suburb of Park City was very small, only 900 square feet.  His new home in El Dorado in the state prison is going to be 80 square feet. 

COSBY:  A tough place, too, right? 

KAMM:  That‘s right.  And certainly, he‘ll have to watch out for his safety, if he‘s put in the general population, because he, again, is a pedophile and a child-killer.  And those kind of people not looked at too kindly in prison. 

COSBY:  No, they certainly are not.  All right.  Great to see you, Randall.  Thank you very much.

KAMM:  You, too, Rita.  Thank you. 

COSBY:  Well, reporter Larry Hatteberg from the ABC station KAKE here in Wichita, Kansas, has been following this story from the very start.  He is one of the few reporters who actually interviewed the BTK Killer.  He actually did that twice.  Here‘s part of his dramatic phone interview. 


DENNIS RADER, CONFESSED BTK KILLER:  There was no way I was going to get out of this, self-centered, very selfish, seemed to crave the attention of the media. 


COSBY:  You know, it is incredible when I hear those comments.  What was it like to get a call from BTK? 

LARRY HATTEBERG, KAKE-TV ANCHOR-REPORTER:  Well, it was a Saturday morning.  And I was out of my deck just drinking a cup of coffee.  All of a sudden, the phone rings, and it‘s a collect call from Dennis Rader. 

COSBY:  Do you have caller ID, I hope? 

HATTEBERG:  I do have caller ID.

COSBY:  Did you know he was calling?

HATTEBERG:  It doesn‘t say “Dennis Rader.”  I had given him my number in a letter that I had written to him, like every other journalist in the world who wanted to interview him, who wanted to talk to him.  And there, all of a sudden, 10:00 on a Saturday morning, he calls. 

I did have an audiotape recorder set up in order to record the call, just in case he did.  And the good news was, he called.  And for 16 minutes, I talked with him. 

COSBY:  Wow, I want to show another clip of some of the other things that he said to you.  Let‘s play a little bit more of that phone interview. 


HATTEBERG:  So you were not going to kill again?  You had no projects in the works?

DENNIS RADER, CONFESSED BTK KILLER:  Well, yes and no.  There was probably much more that I was really thinking about it—I was meaning to slow down—age-wise, thinking process.  So it probably would have never went.  probably more of an ego thing.

HATTEBERG:  Had you picked the person at that point?

RADER:  Oh, yes, there was one already picked out.


COSBY:  And you know what‘s chilling, Larry, he‘s talking about this 11th victim so called, right? 

HATTEBERG:  Exactly.  And at first, he didn‘t want to admit it to me. 

I had to really press him a little bit in order for him to admit that.  But, yes, he was going to kill again.  But he told me that because of his age that would probably be his last victim.  He didn‘t think that he had it in him after that.  And he was going to, as he put it, “shut everything down” in about six months. 

COSBY:  And this was 2005.  So had he committed this crime, he would be eligible for the death penalty, because Kansas reinstated it in ‘95. 

HATTEBERG:  He would have, yes.  Exactly right.

COSBY:  Do you buy that he hasn‘t killed anybody since ‘91? 

HATTEBERG:  I think he would have bragged about it.  You know, he loves the media.  He loves to talk about all of those things he‘s done.  I think he would have bragged about it.  I think he would have been happy to tell all of us about it and show us how he killed them.  He loves the media, he loves the attention, he loves the spotlight. 

COSBY:  Sickeningly so. 


COSBY:  You know, as a member of this community, and, Larry, you covered this case from the very beginning back in the ‘70s, obviously know this guy in this case, I think, better than anybody, how does it feel to now feel justice is served and it‘s done? 

HATTEBERG:  It feels good.  Thirty years ago, Wichita lost its innocent.  Now, for the first time, I think we can move forward and put Dennis Rader in our rearview mirror. 

COSBY:  Which is good news for everybody. 

HATTEBERG:  Good news for everybody. 

COSBY:  Larry, thank you very much. 


COSBY:  And so much of this day, of course, was not about BTK, but it was about the families of the victims, facing the man who murdered their loved ones and remembering those that they lost.  One of those victims was Dolores Davis.  We were just talking about her earlier.  She was killed in 1991. 

I asked her granddaughter what it was like to be face-to-face with her grandmother‘s killer. 


AMY DAVIS, VICTIM‘S GRANDDAUGHTER:  It was extraordinarily hard.  It was as hard as I thought it was going to be, but I think we all saw the strength within ourselves, you know, 14 years ago as we‘ve had a lot of time to process it.  I think if it happened the day before, I think we all would have just ran out of it screaming and angry. 

You know, and my grandmother, to the very end, she showed grace and strength.  And I think that‘s the least we can do, is show that much in the courtroom for her. 

COSBY:  Jason, what was it like to look at this monster in the eye?

JASON DAVIS, VICTIM‘S GRANDSON:  It was very unusual.  And it was a wide variety of emotions that I was dealing with, because this is something that we‘ve all been waiting for 14 years.  And, I think, for a long time, after a long time, we became reserved to the fact that we may never ever be able to do that. 

And I was expecting to feel so many exceptionally strong emotions.  I was expecting to just feel enraged, and anger, and hate, when I was in the same courtroom as him, Rader, that thing. 

But surprisingly, I felt very little towards him in particular, because, to me, he‘s not a person.  He‘s nothing to me.  I felt very little, except compassion and sympathy for those other victims and the rest of my family who were in the courtroom with us.

As far as he went, I didn‘t want to give him that credit of feeling anything towards him. 

COSBY:  You know, your dad was very eloquent in there.  And I give all of you a lot of credit and just applaud you for being able to even walk in that room.  But your dad said this is an animal who deserves to be caged.  How do you feel, Jason, about Dennis Rader?  What do you think should his be punishment right now? 

J. DAVIS:  Well, first of all, I feel that my dad was a little light when he used “animal.”  And he did later use the term evil incarnate.  I think we all agree that that‘s a more appropriate term. 

As far as Rader‘s punishment goes, I, for one—and I think the rest of us are as well—we‘re content with what he has.  I think I‘m honestly glad that he‘s not eligible for the death penalty in this state, because I think that that would be doing him a favor, to allow him off the hook a little early. 

I think that that would be allowing Satan to have one of his minion‘s a little faster.  He gets to spend the rest of his pathetic life, what‘s left of it, alone in a jail cell by himself without any attention, without any limelight at all.  And I think that‘s a perfectly fitting and appropriate punishment. 

COSBY:  Nan, you lost a beautiful mother-in-law that you loved dearly? 


COSBY:  Today, I will tell you, I cried when I heard what happened to her.  This man strangled her with her own pantyhose, left her at the bottom of a bridge to the animals. 

N. DAVIS:  Yes, exactly. 

COSBY:  How do you feel hearing that story? 

N. DAVIS:  We knew that had happened, so that was not news to us.  It was still hard to hear it again, but we knew that‘s what had happened to her.  And we knew that it wasn‘t her at that time, but it just showed the depravity of that individual and his total disregard for human life.

And for anybody to be treated that way is just totally, totally evil and unacceptable.  For us and all the victims, those were our loved ones.  They were precious to us.  And someone, to be treated with dignity and respect, which he did none of that, none of that. 

COSBY:  Real quickly, what do you think his punishment should be?  Are you happy with the sentence, that he‘s going to rot in a prison cell the rest of his life? 

A. DAVIS:  Yes.  I just hope that media can be responsible enough to not feed into what he‘s hoping for.  And honestly, this life is so short, it‘s like the blink of an eye.  And what his punishment will be when this life extinguishes, I am looking forward to him burning in hell. 

And I know that that will happen.  And that‘s the only justice that I see fitting for what he‘s done to all of these people. 

COSBY:  Thank you very much. 


COSBY:  That was the Davis family, who lost Dolores Davis, the last victim for BTK in 1991.  And coming up, what is it like to defend a monster like Dennis Rader, who proudly admits to some of the sickest crimes?  I‘ll ask his public defender. 

And who would want to live in the same home where Rader planned his devilish crimes?  You‘ll meet her, LIVE & DIRECT.  That‘s coming up.



DENNIS RADER, CONFESSED BTK KILLER:  Sarah‘s probably been my, probably my workhorse.  I really appreciate her.  She‘s done a lot of good work.  Steve, he had to keep heads on all of this.  And I know that was very hard, very hard for him. 


COSBY:  And we continue here live outside the courthouse in Wichita.  As Dennis Rader admitted himself, it was not an easy task to be his attorney.  I had the chance to ask public defender Steve Osburn, who defended BTK, what it was like to represent a confessed serial killer. 


STEVE OSBURN, DEFENDED DENNIS RADER:  It was very difficult.  It was.  I‘ve never represented anyone like Dennis before.  He doesn‘t come across as an evil person when you talk to him, which—it was hard at times to keep in mind what he had done.

And I knew the facts.  I mean, we knew them early on.  And his rights needed to be protected.  If his rights were not protected and the procedure was not followed properly, then this would have to be done all over again, and so we endeavored to do that.

We got the discovery.  We explored the insanity defense.  We made sure that there wasn‘t suppression motions or legal issues that should be pursued.  And when we exhausted that, and we advised him of that, that it didn‘t look like there were any legal defenses, we counseled him on the ramifications of a guilty plea and what to expect. 

COSBY:  You were one of the feel people who has talked to Dennis Rader extensively.  He doesn‘t know why he did what he did? 

OSBURN:  I don‘t believe he does.  I don‘t know that he ever will.  He does not understand what caused him to do what he did. 

COSBY:  Why did he stop in ‘91, Steve?  He stopped his killing, right, you don‘t remember?  They started in ‘74, ended in ‘91.  Why do you think he stopped? 

OSBURN:  I don‘t know.  He‘s not said.  But I believe he just—he got old.  I think that‘s all it was. 

COSBY:  Past sort of his sexual drive, if you will, is that—since he seems to have sexual fantasies? 

OSBURN:  Since his sexual drive seemed to be what was motivating him, I think it dissipated to the point where—I think he was still doing his trolling, but he always found a reason not to do it.  And it just got easier to find a reason not to do it and until he just wasn‘t doing it anymore. 

COSBY:  And Dennis Rader said that he‘s trying to understand himself, right? 

OSBURN:  Yes. 

COSBY:  There‘s something that he wants, maybe other—maybe to prevent another Dennis Rader again? 

OSBURN:  I think Dennis would like to understand why he is the way he is. 

COSBY:  What was his reaction to the verdict, as we‘re looking at some pictures of him?  We can see when he‘s wiping away tears.  But sort of stoic, when he—I think he was resigned to the fact he was going to get basically life without parole. 

OSBURN:  We had discussed this months ago.  He knew this going in.  He even spoke in his allocution that, “I fully expect here to leave here today with a hard-40 sentence.”  So it was pro forma.  We knew what the sentence would be.  It was just a matter of actually getting to that point. 

COSBY:  And what did you say to him, too, after the decision came down?  You talked to him just very briefly.  What‘d you say? 

OSBURN:  I turned to him, as I have, unfortunately, many other clients, shook his hand and said, “Good luck.”


COSBY:  Coming up, would you want to live in the same home as one of America‘s worst serial killers?  You‘ll meet someone who does, LIVE & DIRECT.  That‘s coming up next. 


COSBY:  Dennis Rader plotted much of his sick crimes from a simple, ordinary home in Kansas that he shared with his wife and also his children.  You may not want to own a home like this, but I talked to the new homeowner.  Her name is Michelle Borin.  She bought the house at an auction last month. 


COSBY: The house itself is worth, what, $57,000?  It was appraised. 

You paid $90,000.  Why? 

MICHELLE BORIN, OWNS BTK‘S HOME:  Yes, I did.  You know, I just wanted to help Mrs. Rader out.  I feel sorry for her, and no one ever says anything about Mrs. Rader.  And, you know, this was the only way I felt like would be good enough, you know, to be part in helping her out. 

COSBY:  Give us a sense—you‘re one of the few people who has been inside—what it looks like?

BORIN:  You know, it‘s very small.  You know, the wallpapers are the ‘70s look.  You know, they just really never put a lot of money into the home. 

COSBY:  Dennis Rader, sitting in his cell, how do you think he would feel about a female business owner, a woman who owns gentleman‘s clubs, kind of ironic, after his crimes, is the person who bought this house? 

BORIN:  Well, I hope he doesn‘t relate anything to my profession with that.  I‘m just hoping that he looks at it that I‘m helping his wife or his ex-wife out. 

COSBY:  What do you plan to do with the home? 

BORIN:  As of right now, I have no plans.  I have some ideas, but, as of right now, I have no plans. 

COSBY:  What are some of the ideas?  You don‘t plan to live in it, correct? 

BORIN:  No, I don‘t. 

COSBY:  Do you plan to level it? 

BORIN:  No.  You know, I just—you know, there‘s been a few things that‘s run across my mind, as far as maybe helping families that are in need.  And, you know, but as it is right now, I have no set plan. 

COSBY:  Does it get you a little creepy?  You know, a lot of people say owning a house that this man who did these horrible things used to live in for almost three decades. 

BORIN:  Right.  You know, I did go into the home a week before the auction.  And I have to say, it did give me a little bit of goose bumps.  You know, there wasn‘t any murders committed into the home, so it wasn‘t nothing in that feeling.

But, you know, just to walk in, to know, you know, this is where he slept, this is where he bathed, this is where he ate, you know, and sat at nighttime watching television, you know, it did give me, you know, a little creepy feeling in that way. 

COSBY:  What would you like to say to Mrs. Rader, since you didn‘t get a chance to meet her through this process? 

BORIN:  Well, one day if I do get a chance to meet her, first of all, I‘d like to give her and big hug and tell her that, you know, it‘s going to be all right.  This isn‘t her fault.  Nothing was hurt fault into this.  And to be strong and to hang in there.  And God‘s behind her, you know, and just to, you know, be strong as a woman. 


COSBY:  Well, I also toured around the home with former detective Arlyn Smith.  He chased BTK for years back in the ‘70s, and he joins me now live. 

Arlyn, you and I went back to that house.  And what I was astounded about—and you and I both remarked on this right away—it looks like a normal house, everyday neighborhood.  It was creepy. 

ARLYN SMITH, FORMER WICHITA, KANSAS, DETECTIVE:  Absolutely, Rita.  There‘s just nothing distinctive about the house whatsoever.  The lawn is a little bit overgrown, like you might expect since it‘s been abandoned for several months, but it‘s just a non-descript, plain, small, typical Kansas ranch-style home. 

COSBY:  Good place to hide if you are a serial killer? 

SMITH:  Well, it‘s a good place to hide in plain sight, because there‘s just nothing distinctive about it at all. 

COSBY:  You and I talked about—a lot of serial killers and people you chased in the ‘70s—have these sort of different sides that sort of bleed into each other, the so-called—what you call the twilight period, right? 

SMITH:  Right. Absolutely.

COSBY:  But this man had such two totally different lives. 

SMITH:  I thought it was astounding today during the speech, which I thought would have been more appropriate as an after-dinner speech, perhaps, at some congratulatory function.  But I thought it was astounding today, during his speech, that we actually saw him change. 

I thought at the first of the speech, he started out as the Boy Scout-leading, church-going, good dad and that, during the speech, he changed into that harder, completely other personality.  And there wasn‘t much of a segue between the two. 

COSBY:  You know, at one point, he even corrected the cop. 

SMITH:  Absolutely.

COSBY:  How did you feel about that?  Here you were, a cop in the case, trying to locate this guy in the ‘70s.  He gets up and he says, “You know, some of the statements that were there earlier today about me and yesterday weren‘t exactly right on a couple different points.”  I thought it was audacious.  I thought it was so arrogant. 

SMITH:  Well, I think his arrogance knows no bounds.  And I think that we have seen that over the years, as he did stunt after stunt that was completely arrogant and, had he not been incredibly lucky, would have resulted in his capture years ago, but I think his arrogance just knows no bounds. 

COSBY:  What do you feel, in terms of the punishment?  They could not impose the death penalty because of the law because it didn‘t get reinstated until ‘95.  His crimes ended, as we know it, in ‘91.  What do you think is in store for him, and do you think it‘s the proper fate? 

SMITH:  Well, I think that it‘s the only reasonable fate that we have available in Kansas.  As you said, there is no death penalty available to us in this case.  He is never going to get out of prison.  He will die an old man in prison someday. 

And particularly, if they can get the added restrictions on him, so that he can‘t get periodicals, and he doesn‘t have paper and pen to write, I think he‘s in for a long, lonely, extremely excruciating existence, which is appropriate. 

COSBY:  Yes, which is so little compared to what happened to his victims. 

SMITH:  Oh, absolutely. 

COSBY:  Thank you very much.

And there‘s a lot more ahead, everybody, tonight on the dramatic day, LIVE & DIRECT from Wichita.  And also, everybody, if you have a story that you want us to investigate, be sure to call our tip line.  It‘s 1-877-TIP-RITA, 1-877-TIP-RITA.  We‘ll be back after the break.


COSBY:  Well, it has been a dramatic day here in Wichita, as we‘re still live from the courthouse.  Dennis Rader, the BTK serial killer, now heads to prison, where he will spend the rest of his days, 10 consecutive life sentences behind bars. 

Meantime, the families of his 10 victims know that he will not be back to terrorize them ever again.  And they finally got the chance to tell him face-to-face what they hope for his future.  Hopefully, it will help them all heal.  It was certainly one of the most incredible days in court that I have ever seen.

And coming up tomorrow night, there is a big search that is planned this weekend.  This time, it‘s underwater for Natalee Holloway, in the waters off Aruba.  We‘re going to talk to the investigator who will be part of that search, to find out why it is happening now.  And again, that‘s tomorrow night, everybody.

And that does it for me here in Wichita.  What an incredible, emotional day.  Everybody, stay tuned.  “SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY” starts right now.

Joe, take it away.  What an amazing day in court here.

JOE SCARBOROUGH, HOST, “SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY”:  Boy, Rita, it was so emotional.  And I‘m telling you, it‘s just an incredible show.  Thanks so much for bringing that to us.



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