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All In With Chris Hayes, Monday, June 10th, 2013

June 10, 2013

Guests: Bernie Sanders, Russell Tice, Michael Nutter

CHRIS HAYES, HOST: Good evening from New York. I`m Chris Hayes. And
thank you for joining us.

Tonight, we have a name and a face of the man at the center of the NSA
surveillance revelations. But the questions still remain, are the programs
necessary? Are they dangerous? We`ll be debating the issue coming up.

Also tonight, how is this happening in America? Another major
metropolitan city is closing almost two dozen schools, laying off hundreds
of teachers and aides, but plans for a new $400 million prison are still
moving forward. I`ll talk to the mayor of that city, Michael Nutter of

Plus, the primary field is set for the special election of New Jersey
Senate race and it is a doozy. I really am excited to introduce you to the

But we begin tonight with the biggest mystery in the news today.
Where in the world is Edward Snowden?

This is the Mira Hotel in Hong Kong. And this is where Edward Snowden
is believed to have been holed up until today.

The Mira Hotel is just across the harbor less than 15 minutes way from
Hong Kong`s U.S. consulate which reportedly houses a CIA station, something
Edward Snowden himself was acutely aware of this weekend when he revealed
to the world precisely where he was with an interview Glenn Greenwald and
filmmaker Laura Poitras for "The Guardian."


EDWARD SNOWDEN, NSA LEAKER: I could be rendered by the CIA. I could
have people come after me. Or any of their third party partners. You
know, they work closely with a number of other nations. They could pay off
the Triads.

Or, you know, any of their agents or assets. We`ve got a CIA station
just up the road in the consulate here in Hong Kong. I`m sure they`re
going to be very busy for the next week, and that`s a fear I`ll live under
for the rest of my life, however long that happens to be.


HAYES: The hotel confirmed to "The Washington Post" that a man by the
name of Edward Snowden had been staying there. They would not say for how
long, only that he checked out today.

Meanwhile, Eli Lake of "The Daily Beast" is reporting today that
secretive Q Group, essentially, the NSA`s internal police force, was
tracking Edward Snowden well before he outed himself this weekend. In fact
to Lake`s sources, this Q Group immediately noticed when Snowden
disappeared back in May.

Quote, "There`s complete freak-out mode at the agency right now", one
former intelligence officer tells "The Daily Beast". "There has never been
anything like this in terms of the speed of referral of the crime report to
the Justice Department."

"The Associated Press" is reporting that Edward Snowden moved out of
the Hawaii home he shared with his girlfriend on May 1st. The police since
visited a local real estate agent to find out where he went. She, of
course, didn`t know.

Snowden, himself, told "The Guardian" that as he packed his bags, he
told his girlfriend only he had to be away for a few weeks and was vague
for the reason why, before boarding a flight to Hong Kong on May 20th. The
FBI reportedly paid a visit to Snowden`s father and stepmother in
Pennsylvania and a couple dark suited gentlemen were spotted knocking on
Snowden`s mother`s door in Maryland this morning.

In short, it is not exaggeration to say this 29-year-old you see
before you is one of the most wanted men in the world right now. We know
his name and his face because of a stunning move on his part to identify
himself as the source of a series of leaks of secret, classified documents
published last week by "The Guardian" and "The Washington Post", detailing
specific tactics and programs that give the NSA access to Americans` call
records and Internet activity.

It was a truly shocking move, even in the small world of high profile
leakers of government secrets, to flee the country and come forward as the
leaker, rather than sitting around waiting to get caught.


SNOWDEN: You can`t come forward against the world`s most powerful
intelligence agencies and be completely free from risk, because they`re
such powerful adversaries that no one can meaningful oppose them. If they
want to get you, they`ll get you in time.


HAYES: Predictably, there are already calls from both sides of the
political aisle for Edward Snowden`s extradition and prosecution.


REP. MIKE ROGERS (R), MICHIGAN: It`s dangerous to our national
security and violates the oath of which that person took. I absolutely
think they should be prosecuted.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You, too, Senator Feinstein?


SEN. JOHN THUNE (R), SOUTH DAKOTA: You`ve got to enforce the laws.
So this is somebody who appears, at least, leaked sensitive, classified
information. I think he needs to be prosecuted.


HAYES: The Justice Department has already confirmed it`s conducting a
criminal investigation into the leaks that Edward Snowden has taken credit
for. The most striking thing about this unfolding spy story, aside from
the human drama of a man who has consciously and deliberately decided to
throw the rest of his life away, for an act of conscience, which is what
Edward Snowden, has decided to do.

Aside from that very compelling human drama, the revelation of Edward
Snowden`s identity and the claims he makes about the power he had are far
more disturbing than the substance of what we learned from the information
he`s leaked so far.


SNOWDEN: The NSA specifically targets the communications of everyone.
It ingests them by default. It collects them in its system and it filters
them and it analyzes them and it measures them and it stores them for
periods of time. Simply because that`s the easiest, most efficient and
most valuable way to achieve these ends.

So while they may be intending to target someone associated with a
foreign government, or someone that they suspect of terrorism, they`re
collecting your communications to do so. Any analyst at any time can
target anyone, any selector, anywhere. I, sitting in my desk, certainly
had the authorities to wiretap anyone, from you, or your accountant, to a
federal judge, to even the president if I had a personal e-mail.


HAYES: Let me read that again. Any analyst at any time can target
anyone, any selector, anywhere. There`s a 29-year-old working for a
private contractor, not even particularly high up in top secret America.
Who can do what he says he could do. How many disgruntled abusive ex-
boyfriends are there inside this massive apparatus? How many people with
substance abuse problems or people who for whatever reason would be willing
to accept $1 million from the Chinese government in exchange for some
information that`s at their fingertips every day?

If Edward Snowden, if this guy can read your e-mail, how secure really
are these country`s secrets?

Joining me now is Senator Bernie Sanders, independent from Vermont.

Senator, a lot of your colleagues have been calling for prosecution
and extradition of Edward Snowden in the wake of his revelation that he, in
fact, is the leaker of these documents. What`s your feeling about those

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (I), VERMONT: Well; my feeling is he made a
decision, he knew what he was doing and he will pay the consequences,
whatever that may be.

But let`s not get distracted from what the real issue here. The real
issue is not Snowden. The real issue is what he revealed. And that is
right now -- this is the reason I`ve consistently voted against the USA
Patriot Act -- what he revealed is that virtually every single phone call
made in the United States is now on record, on file, with the United States

And in addition to that, what we now know is that the Websites that we
access, the e-mails that we use, may also be on file. And the question,
Chris, is not Snowden. The question is, what does freedom and liberty mean
in the United States of America? What does our Constitution mean?

What kind of country do we want to be? Are we comfortable with
knowing that so much of what we do in our personal lives is in somebody`s
file in the United States government?

And you raised a good point that there could be bad actors out there
who gain access to that information. But that`s not the only point. Kids
will grow up knowing that every damn thing that they do is going to be
recorded someplace, in a file. I think that will have a very Orwellian and
very inhibiting impact on the way we live our lives.

HAYES: Senator --

SANDERS: Go ahead.

HAYES: I just want to ask you about this question about this
inaugurating this debate, about what kind of country you want to live in.
That`s something Snowden, himself, said. It`s even something the president
has made mention of. He welcomes that debate.

It`s interesting to see the polling come out which shows, "A", I think
a majority, though not a very strong majority, that basically is tacitly or
explicitly endorsing these practices, and also, a real interesting partisan
switch in which Democrats seven years ago polled on this, didn`t seem that
enthused about it. And, for a fact, were quite critical and now seem to be
much more willing to believe that this is the kind of thing that is
necessary or acceptable for national security.

What does that say to you about where this debate is right now if
we`re really going to have that debate?

SANDERS: It doesn`t really shock me.

There are many people who I have talked to, many good and decent
people. This is what they say. They say, look, I`m not a terrorist.

HAYES: Right.

SANDERS: I really don`t care if the United States government goes
through all of my files, knows everything` it doesn`t matter to me if it
gives them more tools to capture terrorism.

I understand that position. I strongly disagree with it. I, frankly,
think that`s unconstitutional. It`s not what our Constitution is about.
It`s not what this country is supposed to be about.

Look, Chris, I happen to be someone who believes terrorism is a real
threat to this country. There are people who want to do us harm, want to
kill Americans.

I want our law enforcement people to be vigorous in going after
terrorists, but I happen to believe they can do that without disregarding
the Constitution of the United States or the civil liberties of the
American people.

And I think what we need is to tighten up the USA Patriot Act,
specifically Section 215. If the government has probable cause, if they
have reason to believe somebody is a terrorist, go after that person, but
don`t have a blanket check on hundreds of millions of Americans who are

HAYES: You`re referring to Section 215 which is the business records
provision of the patriot act which we have now learned -- thanks to the
revelations about the Verizon court order -- that all of their phone
records of every customer were turned over to the government were being
essentially used as a dragnet.

I think, Senator, you make a great point here which is that we can
have a debate only right now because we know no more information, and the
debate is conducted on such unequal footing, precisely because citizens
don`t know much more than an official tells them.

SANDERS: Right. Right. By the way, Chris, why we need to have this
national conversation, it`s not only the government. It is the private
sector as well.


SANDERS: When you go to the doctor and you get a prescription for an
ailment that you have, are you really comfortable knowing that somebody
will know what kind of diseases you have? The world has changed,
technology has changed, and we have got to figure out a way to protect
basic American rights in the middle of this technological revolution.

HAYES: Senator Bernie Sanders, thank you so much for joining me
tonight. Really appreciate it.

SANDERS: My pleasure.

HAYES: Joining me now is Russell Tice, a former intelligence analyst
at the NSA. He blew the whistle on the Bush administration`s warrantless
wiretapping of American citizens in 2005.

Russell, my first question for you is, what is happening right now, if
you had to imagine, inside the NSA? I cannot begin to fathom the kinds of
meetings that are happening inside the agency.

Group, which is the security group. It used to be called M Group. They`re
probably -- they probably all have their hair on fire right now. They -- I
assume they`re going through every bit of background of this gentleman. As
probably -- they`re also looking at every program he`s ever been cleared
for as well.

HAYES: So, here`s one of the things I think is really surprising
about the revelation of who exactly was behind this. I read some folks
speculating last week when these documents were being leaked thinking this
has to be someone high up. This has to be someone pretty senior.

Then, we found out it`s not someone quite senior in terms of how long
they`ve been in the intelligence community or how senior they were, but
someone with a lot of access and also someone that worked private firm.

How common is it to have people at private companies with this kind of

TICE: Well, I think some of what he`s saying might be overstated, but
he was basically in an outstation in Hawaii, and they tend to have less
security in an outstation than they would at Ft. Meade. So there is a
smaller IT section and he may very easily have been put in charge of a lot
of access that otherwise if he was a Ft. Meade proper he would not have
had, because it`s just a measure of size and the amount of folks you would
have in an IT office.

HAYES: That`s fascinating. In terms of security contractors, and
we`ve seen statistics saying that, you know, as many as 70 percent of the
positions inside the world of those who have top secret clearances are
actually private firms.

Should Americans be -- is this one point of the debate that these
revelations should spark us in about the nature of the intelligence system
right now that is so heavily privatized?

TICE: Well, it is an issue, because there`s an awful lot of work
that`s being done in the private sector that a decision was made some time
ago that they were not going to increase the federal workforce, but they
were going use contractors. I was a contractor for a period of time. You
get paid an awful lot more as a contractor than you do as a federal

But, typically, it`s easy to fire a contractor and difficult to fire a
federal employee. It wasn`t the case with me. But --

HAYES: I want to ask that question. As someone who is a
whistleblower, what was your experience in trying to blow the whistle from
inside the NSA? And does it make you understand why Snowden might have
done what he did?

TICE: Oh, absolutely. I learned the hard way, you cannot trust any
of the internal supposed mechanisms that are there for oversight. The
chain of command, the I.G.`s office, even at the DOD I.G. I found was
basically trying to put a knife in my back.

The Whistleblower Protection Act does not apply to the intelligence
community. They`re exempt from it. And most people in the intelligence
community, they don`t realize that. So, you can`t even go to the Office of
Special Counsel because they`re exempt from that, too, and the merit system
protection board.

So even if you use the whistleblower -- intelligence community
Whistleblower Protection Act, the only thing that gives you is the right to
go to Congress. It doesn`t -- it doesn`t have any teeth there to protect
you against retribution from the agency that you`re reporting abuse on.

HAYES: Russell Tice, former NSA analyst, whistleblower -- thank you
very much.

What happens to a city when almost 4,000 school workers are handed
pink slips? Twenty-three schools are shuttered and a $300 million prison
gets built in their place. I will take you there, next.


HAYES: Up next, some kids complain their schools feel like prisons.
I`ll take you to one American city where the schools are actually being
replaced with a prison.

Still to come, political candidate almost as entertaining as Toronto
Mayor Rob Ford has his sights set on Washington. This guy is amazing. The
monster that Chris Christie made, still to come.



refuses to listen, spends more money on a closing plan than on keeping
schools open, closes schools that have 92 percent graduation rate, closes
schools that are doing well. If you do that, and what choice does
community have but to say enough is enough? Even in it means getting


HAYES: Well, she did get arrested and spoiler alert, she was not
successful in her efforts. The schools are still closed.

Randi Weingarten, president of the American Federation of Teachers was
protesting against Pennsylvania`s state run school reform commission from
closing 23 schools across the city of Philadelphia. The commission said
they needed to close nearly 10 percent of the city`s schools in order to
erase a budget deficit of $1.35 billion over 5 years.

Initially, teachers at schools that are closing would be transferred,
but last week, that same reform commission approved a budget so tight, it
left a $300 million hole which in turn left Philly`s school superintendent
with a very difficult decision to make.


TV ANCHOR: Late this afternoon, school superintendent William Hite
detailed who will get pink slips. In all, 3,783 workers are getting layoff
notices. That includes 676 teachers, 769 assistants. And the largest
group affected: more than 1,200 aides.


HAYES: All of this is the result of something that took place a
little more than a year ago when Pennsylvania`s Republican Governor Tom
Corbett who is my own dark horse pick for maybe the worst governor in the
country, along with the GOP-controlled House of Representatives, cut
statewide pre-K through 12 education budget by $961 million. A 12 percent
cut in education.

And I bet you can guess what part of the Philadelphia community will
be disproportionately affected by school closings. Black students comprise
81 percent of those who will be impacted by the closures and 93 percent of
kids affected are low income.

Meanwhile, Governor Corbett has no money for schools. He fished under
his cushions and found the cash to build a $400 million prison complex in
suburban Philadelphia. And that`s on top of the $1.8 billion corrections
budget already signed by Corbett. When it comes to Pennsylvania`s budget
winner: the Department of Corrections all the way.

So what we have is hundreds of millions of dollars being invested in
incarcerating people from poor neighborhoods, along with the corresponding
buzz saw taken to education budget, and it`s all the more telling. You
realize that, quote, "more than one-quarter of Pennsylvania prisoners come
from Philadelphia."

Joining me now is the mayor of Philadelphia, Democrat Michael Nutter.

Mayor, thank you. The first question I have for you is, looking at
this story as an outsider, it seems to me like Pennsylvania`s priorities
are extremely screwed up at the moment.

MAYOR MICHAEL NUTTER (D), PHILADELPHIA: Well, let me say this, Chris.
I`m focused on trying to get additional funding to invest in the education
of our children here in Philadelphia. We`ve had our budget challenges here
at the city and the school district has as well. It`s a separate entity as
you mentioned in your opening, controlled by the commonwealth of

We do have a budget deficit. I put forward a plan to fill some of
that deficit, but we do need additional support from the commonwealth and
we need to save money as a result of workplace reforms and other financial
reforms with the unions that the school district is negotiating with.

But these are some pretty tough economic times. I think that the
school superintendent, Dr. Hite, and the school reform commission, though,
took the right step in honest budgeting. They`ve only budgeted the dollars
they know that they`re going to have.

Now, let me give you a little bit of background for that.


HAYES: Mayor, let me stop you right there.


HAYES: Before we get to the background, you`re quite measured in
this. And my question is --

NUTTER: Well, the background is important.

HAYES: OK. I want to hear the background, but first I just want you
to -- I mean, let`s start with the 12 percent cut to education which is
cascading down and part of the reason that this is happening.

What is your feeling about that cut? I understand that there are
local fiscal challenges, there are fiscal challenges across the country,
but at a time when the state is finding the money to build this prison,
it`s very hard as an outsider to look at this and feel like the priorities
are in the right place.

NUTTER: Well, of course, I`m a posed to the cut. There was a cut to
education all across the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania.

At the same time, here in Philadelphia, we have, unfortunately, had to
raise taxes two years in a row -- property taxes and a use and occupancy
business task. We put up $90 million additional into funding education
here in Philadelphia at the city level, while obviously facing some
challenges at the state level.

We`ve had a number of schools that were closed because of empty seats
across the system. We`ve had an expansion of charter schools in
Philadelphia over the last few years, nearly 60,000 students having moved
from district-managed schools into charter schools which, of course, are
still public schools.

But you can`t maintain that level of inventory, 70,000 vacant seats
across the entire school system, and continue to provide high quality

So, we`ve had to make some very, very tough decisions working with Dr.
Hite and his team.

HAYES: Well, there are critics --

NUTTER: The numbers are -- the numbers, they are real and we are
seeking additional funding this year from the commonwealth of Pennsylvania.
We`ve had some fairly positive discussions about that.

HAYES: The critics -- the critics will say, and they`ve said it
looking at the situation, Rahm Emanuel, fellow mayor in Chicago with school
closings. But actually this is, of course, part of the plan which is that
if you expand charter schools often which are outside of the sort of normal
administrative procedures of the school district proper, sometimes not
unionized, that this is essentially a way to get --

NUTTER: But still public schools.

HAYES: Sure, this is a way to get --

NUTTER: Still public schools.

HAYES: Well, still public schools now, let`s say, right? This is a
way of essentially smashing what was the old administrative public that
people had some real democratic accountability over and replacing it with
something that people don`t have that kind of democratic accountability

NUTTER: Yes, I mean, I`ve heard that. I mean, it`s certainly an
interesting theory.

What I`m focused on is: these public school parents, who are
taxpayers, made a decision to move their child from one school to another
school which is still a public school. And that`s really about high-
performing seats all across the system and a choice that parents get to

So, my job is to make sure that we have a system of great schools all
across the city of Philadelphia, that they are properly funded, regardless
of who manages them, that our children get a high quality education, that
their parents are actively engaged in their education. And that the
elected officials, certainly myself included, are providing the proper
funding for a high quality education regardless of what school a parent
decides to send their child to.

HAYES: Quickly, Mayor, did the reform commission make the right
choice about what schools to close? Because some of these schools seem
like they`re actually quite high performing.

NUTTER: There were a variety of factors that went into this and a
whole host of different community meetings. You have some buildings where
there actually is a good quality education going on, but the physical plant
of that building is old and decrepit. Philadelphia, as you well, an old
Northeastern city and many of our buildings are old and are not high
quality places for kids to go to school or even teachers to teach.

So, I think overall they started looking at about 39, got down to in
the 30s and ultimately decided this year 23. Overall, the SRC, School
Reform Commission, made tough choices but they made the right choice.

We need to downsize the system. We cannot have all of those vacant
seats. And at the same time, what you don`t hear much about is they`ve
actually increased or opened up, created more high quality seats for
children to attend school and get a high quality education.

So, these are tough, tough issues. These are tough budget times. We
need to make sure we properly fund education for our children here in

HAYES: Philadelphia Mayor Michael Nutter, defending the decision by
the reform commission. Thank you very much.

The New Jersey Senate seat held by the late Frank Lautenberg will be
filled later this year with a special election. Today, we have our primary
candidates and the Republican front-runner is a real piece of work. You
definitely want to stick around for that.


HAYES: The race to become the next senator from New Jersey kicked off
today in what is shaping to be a lopsided circus. Thanks to a ring master
who doesn`t want to face Cory Booker`s electorate. Today at 4:00, the
deadline passed to enter what looks to be a quite crowded field, the Senate
seat of the deceased Senator Frank Lautenberg.

The race is made more competitive by the fact the guy who was sworn in
today as interim senator, Jeff Cheisa, will not be running in the special
election on Wednesday, October 16th. That means it`s essentially an open
seat. Today a slew of Democrats filed like Congressman Rush Holt, former
rocket scientist, and Newark Mayor Cory Booker who is odds-on favorite
against the Democratic field that includes New Jersey Assembly Speaker
Sheila Oliver and Congressman Frank Pallone.

The crowded field on the Democratic side is probably a sign they see
this as a winnable seat. After all, New Jerseyans haven`t elected a
Republican to the Senate since 1972. On the Republican side of the ledger,
there is Aleta Eck, a doctor, whose main focus is government intrusion into
Medicaid and health care.

And New Jersey State Senator Michael Dougherty decided not to run,
instead is throwing his support behind this guy, Steve Lonegan, the former
three-term mayor of Bogota, New Jersey, population 8,000. Steve Lonegan is
a fierce Tea Party conservative who plans to take Washington by storm.


to overturn the repeal and get rid of Obamacare before it`s too late and
I`m going to put backbone into the Republican Party in Washington, D.C.,
and make sure they do something.


HAYES: Steve Lonegan was one of the stars you might say of a little
documentary about the Bogota mayoral race a few years ago.


LONEGAN: I`m in trouble now. I`m getting in serious trouble. What
do I have to do? No, Steve, I can`t calm down. I need to resolve this.
This is outrageous. I don`t know what to do. I don`t know what the hell
to do.


HAYES: Steve Lonegan whose 15 minutes of fame as mayor of Bogota was
when he tried to get a Spanish language McDonald`s billboard taken down in
2006. There he is in front of the billboard, which translates to, a cold
front is coming, the new iced coffee. Both McDonald`s and the billboard
company declined Lonegan`s request.

We have thus far been able to reach Steve Lonegan`s brother,
immigration rights advocate, Brian Lonegan, for a comment about his
brother`s race. Steve Lonegan has run for the GOP nomination for governor
twice, once against now-governor Chris Christie, Lonegan has ran for
Congress and state senate and Lonegan has lost all of those races. Lonegan
is now leaving his post at the Koch brothers "Americans for Prosperity" to
run for Senate.


LONEGAN: I did step down today from "Americans for Prosperity" to run
for office. I gave up a job I had for seven years that was a terrific
opportunity for me. I formally terminated that position today to run for
the United States Senate. I intend to win this race. I don`t intend to be
an unemployed loser on October 14th.


HAYES: I almost forgot when Lonegan wanted to announce a proposal to
end all state affirmative action programs, he decided the best place to do
that was on Martin Luther King Jr. Boulevard in Newark on Martin Luther
King Day. All this is not exactly boosting Lonegan in the early polls.

In the head to head between Cory Booker and Steve Lonegan, it`s 52
percent to 27 percent, which maybe why Governor Christie is taking some
heat for dangling the special election three weeks before the general
election when he is widely expected to win re-election in a landslide.

After all, Governor Christie might have provided Steve Lonegan some
good old Christie coattails, but, no, that is not happening. Today
Christie avoided answering direct questions about Lonegan`s chances
including this exchange.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Governor, what do you think of the Steve Lonegan
candidacy for U.S. Senate? Are you disappointed there aren`t any moderates
in the party running? Do you think that hurts the party`s chances?

GOVERNOR CHRIS CHRISTIE (R), NEW JERSEY: You know, listen, again,
that`s another way of asking the second part of Terry`s question so no


HAYES: But this has not deterred Mr. Lonegan.


LONEGAN: I anticipate with enthusiasm that Governor Christie and I
will be making great team the next 16 weeks to win the first Republican
U.S. Senate seat in 42 years.


HAYES: Koch brothers Stooge, perennial also ran, Spanish language
billboard hating, Obama care repeal crusading, former Bogota Mayor Steve
Lonegan is Governor Chris Christie`s special election stepchild. We`ll be
right back with Click 3.


HAYES: Pentagon papers leaker Daniel Ellsberg says Edward Snowden
showed the kind of courage we expect of people on the battlefield. Legal
analyst Jeffrey Toobin says Snowden is a grandiose narcissist who deserves
to be in prison. Coming up, a debate on the most exceptional leak of our

But first I want to share the three awesomest things on the internet.
Today would have been Maurice Sendack`s 85th birthday. "Beloved Children"
author and illustrator died last year. His work, of course, lives on. His
1963 classic "Where the Wild Things Are" is read by moms and dads all over
the world. It`s a favorite in my household. It`s also a favorite in the
White House where the president really getting into character for a lucky
group of kids.

Today, Google paid tribute to Sendack`s creations through one of its
famous Google Doodle. The Google home page features the character, Mack,
in his monster pajamas. If you click on the image, you`re taken to an
animated adventure of Sendack`s work starting with "Where The Wild Things
Are" and ending with his final book, "Bumble Art," a fitting tribute to an
amazing and creative mind. You are missed, Maurice Sendack.

The second awesomest thing on the internet today comes to us from the
Apple Worldwide Developers` Conference. The tech titan is revealing all
its new innovations and products in San Francisco this week with gadget
geeks from around the globe gathering to hear the news firsthand.

With so much happening, it`s difficult to sum up the conference with
one image. CNET`s Dan Ackerman makes an attempt by tweeting this photo.
On the right, see the line for the men`s room. On your left is the line
for the women`s room which does not exist. Perhaps all the women were on
the other floor or perhaps there weren`t that many in attendance we don`t
quite know.

In the bright side, if anyone is well equipped for waiting in a long
tedious line surrounded by like-minded people, it`s definitely these guys,
which brings us to the third awesome thing on the internet. She may have
been a late adopter, but she was certainly given a warm welcome. Fan girls
and guys let out a collective OMFG this afternoon upon learning that
Hillary Clinton, the one and only has joined Twitter.

Her bio list, her accomplishments, past and present, alluding to her
future, wife, mom, lawyer, women and kids activist, first lady of Arkansas,
first lady of the United States, U.S. senator, secretary of state, author,
dog owner, hair icon, pantsuit aficionado, glass ceiling cracker, TBD. The
much celebrated text from Hillary Tumbler, where boldfaced names text for
the former secretary of state.

Clinton`s response always shows her seated inside a military plane
sporting a bad ass pair of shades. She embraced the text from Hillary
theme. Her first tweet, I`ll take it from here, using the hash tag
tweetsfromhillary. It`s not known whether Hillary will use the social
media platform to propose policy initiatives or just her speculation over
her future political endeavors.

You can find all the links from tonight`s Click 3 on our web site, We will be right back.



EDWARD SNOWDEN, NSA LEAKER: I am no different from anybody else and I
don`t have special skills. I`m just another guy who sits there day-to-day
in the office, watches what`s happening and goes this is something that`s
not our place to decide. The public needs to decide whether these programs
and policies are right or wrong.


HAYES: That was Edward Snowden explaining in his own words the
question we are all asking, why. Why did a 29-year-old Booz Allen Hamilton
employee living in Hawaii making around $200,000 a year decide to throw it
all way, to leak classified documents related to one of the government`s
most secretive agency, the NSA, then go public and reveal himself to the

A decision that has laser focused the reactions and inclinations of
people over the past week from the leaks onto a single person. Today,
Daniel Ellsberg, the famed leaker of the Pentagon papers wrote "there has
not been in American history a more important leak than Edward Snowden`s
release of NSA material.

Snowden did what he did because he recognized the NSA surveillance
program for what they are, dangerous, unconstitutional activity." But in
the "New Yorker," Jeffrey Toobin, echoing the sentiments of Republican
lawmakers and some Democrats said that Snowden, quote, "he`s a grandiose
narcissist who deserves to be in prison."

Those opinions likely reflect the opinions of many, many Americans who
are just learning about who Edward Snowden is and what exactly his leaks
mean. Americans for the most part have very conflicted feelings about
surveillance and about how the government operates in secret to, quote,
"keep us safe."

But now, now we have this face, this person, and our very conflicted
feelings about our government and secrecy and accountability and our safety
are being focused on this incredibly intense question. Did Edward Snowden
do the right thing?

Joining me now is Amy Goodman, host and executive producer of
"Democracy Now," co-author of the book "The Silenced Majorities: Stories Of
Uprisings, Occupations, Resistance And Hope," Karen Finney, host of the
awesome new MSNBC show "Disrupt With Karen Finney," which airs Saturdays
and Sundays at 4 p.m. Eastern. She`s also a former director of
communications for the Democratic National Committee.

And Marc Ambinder, a contributing editor to "The Atlantic" and editor-
at-large at "The Week," and he is also the author of the book "Deep State,
Inside the Government Secrecy Industry." Amy, I want to begin with you.
Do you think -- I think I know the answer to this, but do you think Edward
Snowden did the right thing?

AMY GOODMAN, "DEMOCRACY NOW!": I think he was concerned about the
whole American population being snowed and he wanted to challenge that.
Amazingly, given what he could face, I mean, look at Bradley Manning, the
trial began this week. He faces life in prison as he`s a court-martial at
Fort Meade or possibly the death penalty. Snowden knows exactly what he
faces. What he said he was more concerned about is that the American
people would not know they`re being spied on, watched, listened to,
monitored in ways that we possibly have never dreamed of before.

HAYES: Karen, do you agree with that as you watch this unfold?

not quite sure yet how I feel about it. I will tell you, I say that
because I think about how the IRS story, for example, has changed over
several weeks and the more we`ve learned the nature and composition of that
story has changed.

On the surface of it, the thing that bothers me the most is why did
some 29-year-old kid who`s worked for this company for three months have
access to that kind of information which you talked about at the beginning
of the show. That`s number one on my list of questions.

But number two, I mean, I can tell you when I worked in the Clinton
administration, I had a top secret clearance. I took that as sacred. It
bothers me, I`m very uncomfortable that this 29-year-old kid decided that
it was OK to put this information out there and, you know, I guess the
other piece of it is, you know, we have these feelings, and I think parent
of the problem is, you`ve heard me say.

Ethics, the reality of the nature of the threats we face, law and
technology, have not kept up. I mean, what if what we`re talks about is
the listening on conversations that we`ve had could have prevented the
Boston bombing. Are any one of us going to look at people who lost limbs
and say, too bad, sorry? I`m very uncomfortable with this.

HAYES: You just said it right there, to any, precisely illustrates
the problem with the incentive structure inside the government for secrecy,
which is that after Boston, right, everyone`s going to say, what did we
miss? And no one, because of the nature of that, if you`re sitting in the
White House in the oval office or any -- you`re never going to make a
decision to ratchet things down, to make things less secret.

Because what you do is you open yourself up to get destroyed by
Lindsey Graham the day after something like, God forbid, the Boston
marathon bombing happens. Marc, I thought it was interesting that Snowden
distinguished himself from Bradley Manning, Amy, you brought it them up in
the beginning saying, I`ve carefully evaluated every single document I
disclosed to ensure that each was legitimately made in the public interest.

There are all sorts of documents that would have made a big impact I
didn`t turn over because harming people isn`t my goal. Transparency is.
What do you make of that statement?

MARC AMBINDER, "THE ATLANTIC": I mean, it certainly suggests that he
understands the potential significant risks that can attend from the leak
of any classified document that talk particularly about sources and
methods. But to get back to your original question, you know, to the
question that we all gravitate to, did you do the right thing? We have the
least amount of information at this point to evaluate it.

But that doesn`t mean I will evade it. I think if you segregate out
the documents he leaked, talking about the foreign intelligence
surveillance court order, which involves directly the collection of
metadata, telephone records on American citizens, doesn`t talk about
sources and methods. If that were the scope of what he leaked, it would
still be an enormous story.

It would necessarily advance a debate that the government has shied
away from for a long time. He would still face the consequences and
perhaps appropriately so, but I would feel more comfortable saying he did
the right thing. The second set of documents leaked about the prism
system, both the "Washington Post" and "The Guardian" didn`t publish
everything he wanted to publish. I don`t know what harm that will or won`t
have in terms of the future -- yes.

HAYES: I want you to hold that thought, because this question, part
of the problem is we`re conducting this debate like we are with everything
having to do with top secret America in the dark, right? We have to take
on face value official pronouncements. Amy, respond to Marc and Karen
right after we take this break.



laws that have been broken, certainly the reports seem to indicate that,
that if anyone were to violate the law by releasing classified information
outside the legal avenues, certainly that individual should be prosecuted
at the full extent of the law.


HAYES: Eric Cantor talking about the 29-year-old intelligence analyst
Edward Snowden. I`m here with Amy Goodman from "Democracy Now," Karen
Finney, host of the new MSNBC show "Disrupt" and Mark Ambinder from "The

We`re talking about Edward Snowden. Amy, I want you to respond to
this argument, which a bunch of people made I think across left, right,
Republican, Democrat, which is look, to get security clearance you swear
you`re not going to leak this classified stuff. It`s classified under the
law and you`re breaking the law, so, you know, you`re going to get
prosecuted for it.

GOODMAN: A couple quick things. One is, he`s a military contractor,
let`s not forget he wasn`t even working directly for the NSA and how many
of these contractors -- these are corporations -- this young man had access
like, about 1 million people it sounds like across this country do, this
kind of access to the very personal information about our lives.

But I think about Daniel Ellsberg. That`s who you started with, 40
years ago, who said he realized as a top Rand Corporation official and
Pentagon official, he had a kind of access that most people didn`t, and if
he were to give out the information, a secret history of U.S. involvement
in the war in Vietnam, he could stop the deaths of tens of thousands of
U.S. soldiers, perhaps, and millions of people in Vietnam, Cambodia.

He opted for that and helped end the war in Vietnam. This is 40 years
later, and this young man is deeply concerned about something he learned
that says, that affects not only all Americans, but people all over the

HAYES: Karen, as someone who, you know, you and I are both on the
broad coalition of the center left of America, and I find something
powerful about the sheer and raw and evident conscience that is displayed
in that video. I mean, it has to -- like, from the place I come from as a
progressive, that speaks to me that there`s some real moral vision there.

FINNEY: It does, and look, I remember very clearly when I was at the
DNC, when we were fighting the Bush administration on the warrantless
wiretapping. I mean, many Democrats, Howard Dean among them, you know, the
argument we made was, follow the law. We can do, you know, let`s follow
the law and we can keep America safe. We said we wanted a process. We now
have a process.

I think the argument needs to be, if this process isn`t right then
let`s have that conversation. But the other problem, just quickly, Chris,
that really bothers me about this is, you know, somebody could track my
location just based on my cell phone, somebody not the government. And so,
like, we`re already -- it`s a farce if we think that we`ve got a level of
privacy that we used to.

I mean, the amount of information that is out there and available
about us that we are willingly giving away all the time, if we`re going to
be this concerned about it, then let`s really have that conversation
because I don`t want private companies having access to that information
either, by the way.

HAYES: That argument, Marc, I`ve heard this argument from people,
just in my everyday conversations with folk, friends, whatever, over the
last few days as these revelations come out, being like, look, I just
assume everything is being tracked and monitored all over the place, which
mitigates destructive leaks because presumably anyone working for al Qaeda
makes the same assumptions. How much have you heard that, Marc? How much
does that jive with the way you think of this as someone who has reported
on the NSA?

AMBINDER: I think it`s certainly one way to think about privacy in
general, but there`s a big difference between corporations and the
government. And it actually goes to the difference between Daniel
Ellsberg`s revelations and these revelations, which is the government
possesses the ultimate executive power. I mean, it can jail you, it can
detain you. It can kill you.

Daniel Ellsberg`s revelations may well have contributed to the
wrapping up of the Vietnam War. These revelations are not going so far as
we can imagine in our future. They just don`t nearly rise to that level.
So it`s difficult for me to compare him on the qualitative basis to Daniel

Even though the Obama campaign and Apple, I`ll hold up my own phone,
and Apple, know more about me than, you know, perhaps even members of my
family, and probably the government. What the government can do with that
information is much different than what a corporation can do. They can
make me buy something or vote for someone.

FINNEY: They sell that data. That is marketing data.

AMBINDER: I agree.

FINNEY: That is used to target products and services to you.

AMBINDER: I agree. I`m not saying it`s a bad thing. I agree.

FINNEY: They`re making a profit off of it.

AMBINDER: I`m not saying it -- right. I`m saying -- I agree with
you, Karen. I`m just -- there is a distinction between corporate access to
this information and the government`s access because the government can do
a lot worse with it.

HAYES: What we have seen, one of the remarkable things, just the
begin of this story in the last week, is the degree to which how
inextricably bound the government and private enterprise is in the creation
of this huge intelligence complex on the contractor side and on the
internet provider side as well.

Amy Goodman from "Democracy Now," Karen Finney, host of the MSNBC
"Disrupt With Karen Finney," which airs Saturdays and Sundays at 4:00
Eastern and Marc Ambinder from "The Atlantic." Thank you all. That is ALL
IN for this evening. "THE RACHEL MADDOW SHOW" starts now. Good evening,


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