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All In With Chris Hayes, Wednesday, November 27th, 2013

Read the transcript from the Wednesday show

November 27, 2013
Guest: Sam Seder; Nancy Gilles; Josh Barro; Liz Winstead

CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST: Tomorrow is, of course, thanksgiving, which
is always my favorite holiday. And now, thanksgiving where just about any
family event in America in 2013 has the kind of added freight that comes
from the fact that we are as polarized as a nation as we`ve been in a long
time. Not just our political leaders but actual people too.

And yet, no matter how much our social circle or our lives are
embedded in a red or blue America, we all have loved ones who form the
lattice work of kinship in our lives. People that we love who also just
don`t share our world views in different ways of thinking about the work, a
different politics, when that brought fact is often a source of stress.

But it is also kind of a wonderful thing because it would be a sad,
impoverished world if we just had no relationships with affectionate (ph)
kingship with people of different political views.

The fact of family get-togethers in the era of polarization has given
birth to an entire genre, which is the how to talk to your family members
about "X" at the holiday genre. The president offered this advice for a
tweet. When your loved ones get together this holiday season, remember to
talk to them about health insurance. He also launched this Web site which
is sort of a clip note version of how to actually talk to your relatives
about health care in four easy steps which is accompanied by a video of how
this might just play out.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, sweetie. You almost here.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, I`ll be there in a few.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Good, because we have something really important
to talk to you about.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What the heck do they want to talk to me about?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Your mother and I have joined a service. We`re
deaf punk.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I`m a just a moggle (ph). I`m the one who knocks.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Grandma is a dragon.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So, what did you want to talk to me about?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We know you don`t have health insurance. We love
you no matter what. But it`s time to get covered.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s it, health insurance?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I know and I`ll do it. I just thought -- never


HAYES: Now, talking about health insurance doesn`t have to be as
painfully cringe-inducing as that video. Sarah Cliff over the "Washington
Post" has written a guide to surviving Obamacare debates at thanksgiving.
And the "Huffington Post" has their guide to talking about Obamacare.

Let`s say you are tired of talking about health care and you want to
bring up, I don`t know, guns. Well, Bloomberg`s mayors against illegal
guns and the NRA have released competing guides on both sides of the gun
issue. The conservative has a guide on how to talk to
liberals. And then for liberals with the one conservative uncle, the DNC
has put together a Web site called which I must
say is a pretty damn good resource for conversation.

And if you want to study whatnot to do, and read this great sytherical
(ph) junk cook piece in which she describes how to pick fights at
thanksgiving dinner with advice like what should we fight about? Israel
and how much should I drink as much as you can?

We are going to talk tonight about political topics that might come up
at your thanksgiving dinner. But before we do, I want to establish some
basic ground rules and help me do so, I would like to welcome to dinner Sam
Cedar, host of the online daily political talk show majority report, Nancy
Giles, contributor of CBS Sunday morning, Josh Barro, politics editor at
Business Insider, and comedian, Liz Winstead.

Good to have you, guys, here.


HAYES: Thank you very much.


HAYES: Yes. You can eat.

HAYES: Liz brought a pie.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The Carol Merrill thing.

HAYES: There we go.

So, OK. First off, I want to start with ground rules here, about you
know, how you talk about politics. And this is the first and most
important one. If you have an unwritten pact in your family that you don`t
talk about politics, don`t talk about politics, right? Are we all in
agreement on this?

pacts like that?

HAYES: I do, because I come from a good stock of repressed Irish
Catholics who understand the way to deal with problems and sources of
conflict is to push it deep, deep down and just not deal with it.

LIZ WINSTEAD, COMEDIAN: Attack you and start reckoning.

HAYES: Yes. Exactly. Drinking. But I actually do think -- I think
this is a key of initial ground rule, which is, if it is the case -- I
guess what I`m saying is, don`t pick fights, right? Don`t start it.

SAM SEDER, ONLINE SHOW HOST: There is a gray area because --

HAYES: I`m looking at you because you look like the kind of guy that
doesn`t take that advice.

SEDER: No, I don`t take that advice. I do have a certain amount of
plausible deny ability because when I go into like an in-law situation, I
don`t know what the unwritten pact is.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That is not true.

SEDER: Nine or ten years, I get a sense of it. But I am not sure of
it. And so, if I see an opportunity, I`ll take it.

WINSTEAD: But it is also, I`m from Minnesota where the passive-
aggressive runs way deep. So, you are not talking about it at all, right?
And my father was like psychotically conservative. And he say things like
we would be talking about nothing. So that "New York Times," why don`t
they just publish the Israeli public school lunch menu. I was like, what?
Like where did that come from. He couldn`t wait to say something to me
that is like, you know, I`m not sure but it is vaguely racist and I`m not
sure which side he is on but it is just trumping anything.

GILLES: That is just plain bad.

HAYES: There is a question of whether take the bait or not, right?

in my house.

HAYES: So perfect. By the way, I should just fill viewers in on your
sort of family. Your father is a quite legendary economist.

BARRO: My father is an economist professor who has, you know, 40
years of conservative scholarship. And then my sister is a
gastroenterologist and my brother is a management consultant who works a
lot with health care companies. So, we have a diversity of viewpoints
around the table. They actually set a rule now, I`m not allowed to tweet
from what`s said at these --.

GILLES: That`s a good rule.

BARRO: It is like my relatives are some sort of White House press
officers setting ground rules for what the meeting is that we are having.
So, it actually, is it, you know, we have quite a lively and interesting

HAYES: So, you guys -- do you guys talk about politics? Are there
actually written ground rules?

BARRO: It has been in an e-mail, yes. And I violated the ground
rules before. I probably violating them right now.


GILLES: We would talk about it but I have to say that the food,
itself, was actually, more of the topic. I mean, I can remember one
thanksgiving when my brother, Jeffrey, accidentally knocked over the gravy
and everybody was grief-stricken, I mean. And there was no conversation.
It was all about, there is no gravy for the turkey. Do you understand the
implications? It will be dry. But I mean, there is a little bit of
everything but there are no restrictions. I have never kind of any kind of

HAYES: Well, you were talking to our booking producer. You mentioned
something about, which I think is also important is that we tend to think
of this as like red America, blue America, liberals and conservatives.
But, it doesn`t have to be. You can have political fights with a table
full of everyone that voted for Barack Obama or everybody that voted for
Mitt Romney.


HAYES: The one of the gangliest (ph) we ever had was a few months
after the U.S. -- after 9/11 and the U.S. based in Afghanistan at a
Christmas eve dinner with a bunch of hazel nut family who are all this part
of the family, all liberals, arguing about the war in Afghanistan. Should
we go to war in Afghanistan? And it got very, very fraught.

GILLES: It doesn`t have to. I mean, I think a lot of it has to do
with something as simple as your tone of voice. And I do a lot of speaking
all over the country. And I have had a really wonderful chance after I do
my little funny speech to just get questions from the audience. They know
I do shows like this and Sunday morning on CBS and they ask about different
political issues. It`s my favorite part of the speech because I get to
feel like Carol Burnett anyway.

Not everybody agrees, but I found that if you let them have their say,
and I don`t mean to say them but anybody that you might not agree with, let
everybody talk.

HAYES: This brings me to rule number two or maybe it is rule number
three, I lost count.

GILLES: We can go back to t hat because there is a lot of --

HAYES: -- which is that you -- I think the key to any discussion you
are having with anyone and this family too, is that you cannot persuade if
you, yourself, are not open to persuasion.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You are absolutely right.

HAYES: Right? Like the reason that the knock at the door from the
missionary leads to an uncomfortable conversation is because you are not
going to convince them there is no God, right? They are not going to
convince you that their God is the God because you are not actually having
a conversation. You are being proselytized to. And people sensed and they
are being proselytized too. If you are going to have a conversation which
you are trying to persuade, you have to be open to persuasion, you have to
actually listen to what is being said, right?

WINSTEAD: Well, yes. And I also think in family conversations, it`s
not as horrible as twitter with the right, in my experience anyway, when
you have to be face to face, it is a little bit easier than the atomicity,
you know. It is all said and people are slightly better.

I mean, my dad always used to say to me, dam it, I raised you to have
an opinion and I forgot to tell you, it was supposed to be mine. The go-to
thing that was always funny. But, you know, if people have a rational
point of view, that you disagree with, it is much easier than somebody who
is like, there is no climate change.

HAYES: But you might have a family member who said that. I mean,
that is --

WINSTEAD: But then, you know, that`s why you cook in the kitchen.

HAYES: Right. And that is a great point. What are the things said
to talk about and what are the things where it is like I`m going to go pour
another bourbon?

SEDER: You know, I think there is value when you have a family member
that has that perspective. Because then, you really, you actually
convincing the rest of the family. I mean, that point, that person becomes
just an example.

Well, they are not necessarily always love ones. I mean, it is a big
holiday. Let`s put it that way.

HAYES: But I think this present one.

SEDER: This person is here. There may be some tension that may also
bleed in on a personal level.

HAYES: I hope the family is watching this right now.

SEDER: No, I don`t think so.

WINSTEAD: You didn`t tell them, did you?

SEDER: Of course not.

HAYES: No. But that is, in terms of the, you know, the person who
says, the climate change isn`t happening, for instance, which for me would
get my back up, right? What you said about, well, then, that person, you
are trying to persuade other people, which leads to another ground rule
here which is that you will never convert anyone. Like conversion is an
impossibility. Everyone has to understand.

GILLES: In fact, I was thinking about that and I realized that if you
think that you are going to change someone`s opinion, you are already dead
in the water and the food won`t taste this good. Relax around it. Just,
you know, state your case or don`t. But I just think there can be
persuasion that might not be as black and white as what we`re talking

HAYES: Right. You might persuade someone on a point. What you are
not going to do is bring them over to your way?

SEDER: Not in any given year.

HAYES: Just like a slow grind dinner after dinner.

SEDER: You take a nibble. You don`t take a big bite.

BARRO: Within 30 years, you will have brought them around to your

HAYES: This does happen.

SEDER: Think of Barry Goldwater, right? I mean, look the way where
we are now?

BARRO: It depends on the topics you are talking about, right?
Because this is one of the topics, it is not really driven by data. There
are a lot of foreign policy issue are just very emotional. Maybe this is a
specific --

HAYES: Or first principles, like, what do you believe, who do you
think you belong to?

BARRO: Maybe this I go a barrel family thing. But some of these
economic policy issues and things like Obamacare, you can actually talk
about things that had happen, and you know, what are the number of sign ups
and what are premiums doing? And if people are open to persuasion, you can
talk with them about things that are data driven. You can say, well, given
this first principle that you have that I am not hoping to change, here is
the reason that you should have this view on politics.

GILLES: Sometimes the data, I`m sorry Liz. Sometimes the data is
ignored or new data comes out.

BARRO: Very often.

WINSTEAD: This is why it is so important to have tons -- don`t just
have a family. Have relationships with your family. For example, when the
Medicare part "D" thing happened, my brother, the week before I came to
town to visit, my brother got my parents web TV so they get surf Medicare
web on anywhere out of town, so I had to teach my parents how to use it.

You know what, old people love technology. They love it.
(INAUDIBLE). So, it took forever to try to find, because my mom was on so
many -- she had one pill that just she had to take so she wouldn`t pee out
the other pills. I mean, she was on so many pills it was insane. And so,
it was really hard to finally get her on and I was like maybe, heroin just
-- forget it, if I just got out of a prison. But at one point, we got her
on. And she was super site, but it took a really long time, it was a total

So, bringing up that stuff again, but never the Medicare web site --

HAYES: So, I want to talk to you -- you`ve now segued perfectly into
Obamacare, which is obviously, what if people are going to talk about
politics, it is sure to be the topic, number one. We will talk about that
right after we take a quick break.


HAYES: All right, we are back. I`m here with Sam Seder, Nancy
Gilles, josh Barro and Liz Winstead.

All right, Obamacare. I want to start out with this idea. Should we
start with the plan cancellation. Is that the most likely? That this
thing, that if you like your plan, you can keep your plan.

SEDER: Well, I mean, that`s the interesting thing about it. I
actually think that`s going to be the least common thing that is brought up
at the table. Because it is happening to far less people I think than
people are seeing it.

HAYES: Right. I mean, let me play a little clip on what these news
reports look like that you are likely to hear discussed. Take a listen.
Or not.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She championed Obamacare until she got this in
the mail. A letter from her insurance company saying, it was canceling her

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was really shocked. All of my hopes were sort
of dashed, like, oh, my gosh, President Obama, this is not what we hoped
for. It is not what we were told.


HAYES: So this is the great betrayal, if you like --.

Just a little empirical setup here that is important. There is about
5.7 percent of people that get their health insurance care through this
private market. We are looking about 0.6 percent of people who are getting
worse plans -- getting plans they will pay more for after subsidies and all
that stuffs. So like, this is a tiny fraction of people. That is I think
the most, the key --

GILLES: You don`t hear that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You do not hear that.

WINSTEAD: But their miscalculation about that, it is a tiny fraction
of people but that fraction of people is a million people. And so, you
know what it takes. So, when it is in the millions, it is like millions of
people, that`s a lot of people, even though it is a tiny fraction and
percentage. And I think that they are so wacky sometimes over at that
Obama White House. When they say things like that, these are human beings
and that`s a problem. They should have thought that through which --

HAYES: No, I agree with that, but I do think like I think one of the
things that, you know, when this has can come up because it has been on the
news and he was on CBS. He was on NBC News. When you scratch the surface
on a lot of these, like people who have been the subjects of these stories
are going to get subsidies. They are going to end up paying less. The
woman in the CNBC story that we did the whole thing on, is going to pay
less once she gets the subsidies.

SEDER: And I think that`s going become clear as the Web site,
supposedly, it is getting a little more effective. But I really think the
story is going to be at the thanksgiving table, the nonstory. Everybody is
going to look around the table and go, it hasn`t impacted me at all.

GILLES: I don`t think it will be that way. I think the way the news
in general or I hate to say the news or the media has really gone for, if
it bleeds, it leads. And the tragedy of the people who can`t get it and
the tragedy of the people that trusted in the president and were betrayed.
I feel like that message is so loud.

HAYES: So, that`s an interesting question is, when people get
together tomorrow, right, will the reality of what Obamacare has meant in
their lives, the personal testimonial be the thing that you will talk about
or will it be I heard the story about --

BARRO: Yes. Then the other thing is, you know, lots of things happen
with people`s health plans all the time. Costs go up every year. And so
now, if somebody is getting a premium increase, they are going to say,
well, you know, this is because of Obamacare. And they can`t necessarily
figure out whether if it was that their costs would have gone up anyway.
But I think one thing you can do at thanksgiving is if you r relative is
one of these five million or so, people that who have gotten a cancellation
notice, get on the Web site with them, try to figure it out and maybe you
will find that they are one of those, you know, two million people who
really are going to end up paying more or maybe they are not.

HAYES: I have been futzing around with the Web site. It is working
much better. The people, basically, what I have been hearing is that if
you have a Farrell complicated set of circumstances, people are still
encountering problems. If you don`t, then actually it has been relatively
smoothly. There is an anonymous shopper feature, I think, they are going
to be rolling out which basically allows you to just look at the plans
without hopping over. But that is actually a good idea like if they are
more on the --


SEDER: My point is that people don`t really care at the end of the
day about other people`s health insurance. And if it hasn`t decided now,
because if they did care about other people`s health insurance, the thing
they would be talking about in thanksgiving is like, wow, there are
millions of other people who are getting insurance for the first time
through Medicaid expansion. Maybe you will hear it at Josh`s family house.
The average person is only going to talk about if it impacts them --

GILLES: Or someone in their family or a loved one.

HAYES: Here is the one that I, myself, have heard. And I heard it
barbecues and suburbs. This is the idea that, I talked to a guy who is not
hiring because of Obamacare or he is keeping people in part-time hours.
This idea that Obamacare is forcing people into part time.

WINSTEAD: I believe that that is the thing to remind them, is that
you don`t have really empirical evidence that that person wasn`t planning
on using Obamacare as they are saying.

HAYES: Here is the full screen of it. The involuntary part-time work
in America. It has gone down. It is really important.

SEDER: I mean, to be fair, the economy is improving. You would
expect it to climb down.

HAYES: You just can`t find anything in the data.

BARRO: The other thing is that the part of Obamacare that`s supposed
to cause this, the employer mandate, is not even effective in 2015. If you
are an employer who is like I`m going to move people down below 30 hours,
you would expect to be far away, especially because it is entirely likely
that provision will get delayed again or repealed.

GILLES: That`s right.

BARRO: Because lots of people don`t like it.

GILLES: But again, that missed story, that lie is just, that`s what`s
taken the lead. It`s really frustrating.

HAYES: That was like -- that had sort of peek popularity in summer.
That was the Obamacare summer story. That it was the Web site and there
was plan cancellations. That`s been the order of the --.

BARRO: The next one is going to be small group plans. We are
starting to see increases in those. Are the premiums going up because of
Obamacare or because of something else or et cetera.

HAYES: OK. So, I want to play this clip of Krauthammer talking about
this idea of that, you know, this just shows government, this is
liberalism. This -- liberalism, this shows that it doesn`t work.
Government can`t run anything. Take a listen.


unraveling, not just the Obama administration unraveling, not just the
Democrat majority of the Senate, but we could be looking at the collapse of
American liberalism.


WINSTEAD: What is with the turtleneck and the jacket to start with?

HAYES: I don`t know. I`m not one to speak.

GILLES: But you know, what I hate more -- well, I hate so many things
and for some reason this strudel is making me feel really feel. It really
irks me when people who hate government get elected into government to then
dismantle the government and then say, look at how bad government is.

HAYES: But in this case, though, here is the thing. In this case,
though, right, it wasn`t -- there were all sorts of ways in which
Republicans sabotaged I mean, like there is -- They also
like one thing I would say is, if I am encountering this conversation, like
there is no reason to defend Like he screwed it up. That
was not like some FOX myth. That was not Benghazi. Like the Web site was
a real wreck. Like it really didn`t work. It was bad.

WINSTEAD: Yes. Buy I say, and then, I say, run with that as a common

HAYES: Yes, exactly.

WINSTEAD: We can all agree that that thing was a big craptastic
disaster that happened.

SEDER: That gets you inside the circle. But I`ll tell you what is
missing though.

What is missing and Krauthammer is on to something insofar as the
problem is that what we need to see is some either progressive senators,
progressive columnists, whatever, some voices out there saying, OK, here is
a solution. Because people have lost their health insurance, government is
taken away from you, they should make up for it, those people a allowed to
buy into Medicare. I mean, put aside the technical aspects of it from a
rhetorical standpoint, there has to be some type of balance on the left.
Then, what is the Republican response to that?

HAYES: The amazing thing is the Medicaid expansion is the part that`s
gone smoothest, which is the bigger government kind of version of the
solution to this problem in terms, you know, of as opposed to this hybrid
public/private partnership, that came out of the heritage foundation in the

All right, I want to talk about the economy. Why is the economy still
bad? Does like people have an experienced, the first-person experience of
the economy is not being great. Why is it still bad? We will talk about
it after this.


HAYES: We`re back. I`m here with Sam Seder, Nancy Gilles, Josh Barro
and Liz Winstead.

So, the economy. Obama`s America. You hear some things probably
about all the people on food stamps possibly, if you have some very hard
core consumers of conservative media. There is a sense that has been sold
to the consumers of that media, that people on food stamps are essentially
milking the system, that they getting one over. And what`s kind of
remarkable about this, is the fairly new, I mean, that general narrative is
not new in conservatism at all, been large, the idea of this sort of fear
of slackers, you know, essentially sucking at the feet of government. But
specifically attached to food stamps, this is a fairly new thing. This is
a program that wasn`t particularly controversial or politically polarized
for a very long time. It is the enrollment the program has gone up,
because there are a lot more poor people in America. But you know, this is
one of the big talking points right now, about this sort of Obama, food
stamp president, here is the guy who is the face of food stamp`s slacker
dome for FOX News. Take a look.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE REPORTER: The 29-year-old has chosen the life of a
beach bum in the seaside paradise. He gets by with a little help from his
friends and you, the taxpayer.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE SPEAKER: My EBT snap card. It has the coast of
California on it.


HAYES: One of our producers, Alison Coke, had this great line, where
she said, "You know when the Fox News producer found that guy, he called
back to Fox. I was like, `we are going to have to do a whole hour`." We
just got someone. I think we need a special. So, here is just few facts
about food stamps, right? This is really, really important.

actually stamps.

HAYES: They are not actually stamps. The last major eligibility
expansion. People do not realize this. Eligibility expansion, increasing
who qualifies was done under President Bush, voted for by Paul Ryan. That
is sort of a useful thing, like actually the definition of who is eligible
for food stamps, the last time it changed in a major was actually under
George W. Bush, right?

GILES: It is like expansion.

HAYES: The expansion -- the eligibility -- Now, the actual benefit
amount increased during the recovery act. And, in fact, that is the thing
that just got taken away, $4 billion in cuts. The other thing is, people,
the program, is an incredibly well-run, low-fraud program to feed people.

GILES: And, there are a lot of working families.

HAYES: Right. Yes, exactly.

GILES: They paid for their meals. These are not people that are
sluggers. These are people who are working jobs that may not be union

HAYES: Right.

GILES: Maybe -- you know, substandard wages, and that is getting them
by and giving them some dignity. That argument just always drives me

do not know the specific circumstances of the surfer, but generally before
-- if you are an adult --

HAYES: He is going to actually be at Thanksgiving dinner --

BARRO: -- So, that is his job. I was going to say if you are an
adult who does not have dependent children and who is unemployed, there is
a time limit for how long you can be on food stamps. So, it is not like
you can just be like, "I am going to go and live on the beach and live off
my, you know, what is it? -- $100 and something a month.


BARRO: Yes. So, that is -- I do not know exactly what that ends up
to, but it is not like the thing they are voting on in Switzerland where
they are talking about whether they are going to give everybody $2,800 a
month just for existing.

HAYES: Right. Although, someday.

BARRO: Someday.


SEDER: Food stamp means one thing. But, I mean I think it is
perfectly legitimate to say, "You know, you are right, the economy is
horrible to most people." I mean this is -- you know, this is where you --
you know, in the back of the context of talking to our conservative family
members, this is where you basically flank them and say, "You know, I am
with you." We need to be stimulating the economy more. It is like George
Bush did when he sent out those checks to everybody for $230, speaking of
guaranteed income.


SEDER: This is where, you know, I think the is no point in --

HAYES: In trying like to tell -- convince people the economy is good,
particularly their experience of it.

SEDER: No., because it is not. It is a far more progressive position
if that is where you are aiming for, is to say we need to be stimulating
the economy at this point.

HAYES: Right.

LIZZ WINSTEAD, STAND-UP COMEDIAN: But, I also think it is two things.
When are they going to stop using some exception as the rule? It is so
annoying like the surfer guy. It is like, "OK. That guy exists."

HAYES: Well, that is the problem. I work in television now --

WINSTEAD: -- that is the case -- so, the other thing too is, this is
an opportunity to say, you want to know what? Remember when Ricky was down
and we had to loan him money to pay his rent like everybody does not have
us. Everybody does not have a family that can help. And, so everybody, in
a family, when you talk about this stuff, if you are lucky enough to be
able to loan somebody money and everybody has gone through that and that is
the time that you remind people and say, "What happens to a family that is
three generations of never having that leg up."

HAYES: Right.

WINSTEAD: -- You know? We are nicer than that. We are just better
than that.

GILES: That is such a great point because it reminds me of the whole
Mitt Romney, many of his points, about how -- you know, he was loaned all
the money to start his business --

HAYES: Right.

GILES: -- which is not the kind of way that 99% of people live, you
know? I think that is great.

HAYES: And, I do think that, you know, part of what is interesting
about the fact that food stamp use has expanded as poverty has expanded is
that it is not limited to some small, narrow strata. This has actually
gets through a broader thing I think that is really interesting about, when
you really dig into people`s family stories. No matter what kind of class
strata they are from in America.

People have -- and almost everyone got someone in extended families
who has gone through rough times, who has had a substance abuse problem or
has been laid off or I mean that -- I mean -- you know? Obviously, in
certain strata, that is more common and in certain, it is less. But,
people have stories of hardship are not remote for most people.

GILES: You know, jumping on that point, I would be remiss if I did
not say that when you were cueing up the tape, I was not sitting here
stealing myself sure that they were going to have a black woman --

HAYES: Right.

GILES: -- with 17 children or something like that. So, maybe Fox has

HAYES: No. That was brilliant. That is why it was the most
brilliant trolling because it is a white surfer.

SEDER: In which thing -- I am sorry go ahead.

BARRO: And, I think the thing to say about food stamps is, you know,
you want programs like this that encourage people to work and that is the
great thing about food stamps.

HAYES: Right. Exactly.

BARRO: You go back to work and then your government benefit is taken
away from you.

HAYES: That is right.

BARRO: And, things that help people when they are down but then also
actually encourage them --

HAYES: And, don`t have this disincentive where you say, "Oh, I got my
job. Now, they are taking away the benefit. All right, I want to talk
about -- You want to say one more thing. Say one more thing.

WINSTEAD: I just going to say the other thing too about the whole
food stamp program is that they based these numbers on your monthly wage
based on people buying flour and making things and it is the way that
people do not live anymore.

HAYES: It is $4.44 a meal, which is a lot less than this cost right

WINSTEAD: That is right. That is right.

HAYES: All right. Have you heard of the Knockout Game? If you are
relative, watch Fox News, I guarantee they heard of it. What it is and why
it is not actually a thing, next.



BILL O`REILLY, FOX NEWS HOST: Another example of young black
Americans committing senseless crimes.

MEGYN KELLY, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: The horrifying and deadly new trend
sweeping the country called the "Knockout Game."

GRETA VAN SUSTEREN, FOX NEWS HOST: The game? Well, young teens try
to knock out a random victim with one brutal punch.

SEAN HANNITY, FOX NEWS HOST: Young men involved reportedly just do
it, quote, "For the fun of it."

BO DIETL, FOX NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: The liberal news media does not want
to say exactly what it is. It is gangs of black youths attacking whites.

O`REILLY: It is a troubling situation and it all goes back to an
alienation of young black men in this country for a number of reasons but
primarily because they are angry. They did not have a family and their
father abandoned them and all of that.



HAYES: That is all stuff that has been airing on Fox recently. I am
here with Sam Seder, Nancy Giles, Josh Barro and Lizz Winstead. If you do
not watch Fox, it is possible you have not heard of this supposed trend
called the "Knockout Game." It has appeared on the "Today" show, so it has
been in more mainstream.

WINSTEAD: So, it is real?


GILES: Have they come up with a theme song and a font to go with it.

HAYES: No. No. But, it did appear there and a few other outlets.
And, it is basically a -- it is video of teenagers beating people up. Now,
teenagers beating people up is horrible. Teenagers should not beat people
up. If they do, they should be punished for it. They should be

GILES: Absolutely.

HAYES: But, I remember this so much. I remember I grew up in the New
York City in the 90s. We had very high rates of crime. There was a woman
in Central Park who was raped. There were accounts that said teenagers
were singing wild thing and wilding. And, there were covers in the New
York papers about the new trend of wilding. The theme park brothers called
it, wilding. And, this was a thing going on.

And, there never was such a thing. And, I see no evidence. And, I
want to read this from the NYPD in response to the "Knockout." This is the
New York City Police Department saying, "There is particular concern within
the department that widespread coverage could create the atmosphere where
such a game could take hold in New York."

You basically have Ray Kelly who is not necessarily like Mr. Bleeding
heart liberal saying, "I do not really see evidence this is a real thing,
and I am concerned that the press is going to make it a real thing."

WINSTEAD: Just like the Koran burner in Florida, exactly like that.

HAYES: Yes. That is exactly --

WINSTEAD: Exactly that guy.

HAYES: That is a perfect example.

WINSTEAD: That happens constantly. If you people --

HAYES: If the Koran burns in the forest and no one will ever hear it.

WINSTEAD: Then nobody is going to react to it.

SEDER: There are two things that are operating here. One is the fact
that it is on video.


SEDER: Because if this was not on video, they could be walking around
with ice picks and attacking everyone and we would hear nothing out of it.


SEDER: And, the other part is it just seems like the war on Christmas
is just not getting off the ground.



WINSTEAD: Totally.

HAYES: That is true.

BARRO: I am willing to bet that. See, there will be a lot of war on
Christmas because congress is not in session. And, we are going to see war
on Christmas going to take off --

HAYES: We have actually breaking. We have breaking news here. Don`t
put the breaking banner up. We don`t want to abuse that. All right, this
is the national republican senatorial committee is now accusing the
president just recently, just today of closing our Vatican embassy. Have
you seen this?

This is the news. You have not heard of this if you do not really get
deep in Breitbart. Basically, they have one building that is in Roam. It
is not actually in the Vatican. It is not in the Vatican. They are
closing that building and moving to another building inside the Italian
embassy compound for security reasons. It is going to save $1.4 million.
No cut in staff.

It is going to have it`s own separate building. And, this has become
the meeting of the day is Obama and Jeb Bush. Jeb Bush basically tweeted,
look at this, why would our president clothes our embassy to the Vatican?
Hopefully, it is not retribution for catholic organizations opposing Obama
Care --

WINSTEAD: No. You know what it is? No. No -- This is the
department of trickle-down economics building.

HAYES: Yes, that is right.

WINSTEAD: And, the Pope, himself, has said, "Close this down."

HAYES: That is right.

SEDER: Honestly, I think this --

HAYES: I think you are right. The war on Christmas is not working.

SEDER: War on Christmas, but I also think this is how do we get sort
of divert attention from the fact that the pope has come out and said some
very unsupportive like --

HAYES: That is an interesting point.

SEDER: -- the anti-republican --

HAYES: This is the way like turning the cap around.

SEDER: Absolutely.

HAYES: All right. Every year, as sure as there will be turkey and
stuffing, there will be American troops celebrating Thanksgiving in
Afghanistan. Why I hope this year is the last time that they will have to
do that, ahead.


HAYES: Tomorrow, 47,000 U.S. service members, not to mention another
30,000 American contractors will celebrate thanksgiving in Afghanistan. It
will probably look much like this Thanksgiving photo from last year or this
from 2011, 2010, 2009, 2008, 2007, 2006, 2005, 2004, 2003, 2002, 2001.
Thirteen thanksgivings in Afghanistan for U.S. Troops during what is our
country`s longest war. But, this year the holiday comes as Hamid Karzai`s
government negotiates the final terms of an agreement with the U.S. for its
withdrawal of forces or I should say partial withdrawal forces since the
reported details of the agreement would have about 8,000, 12,000 troops
stay in Afghanistan through 2024.

The bilateral security agreement announced by Secretary State John
Kerry details a training and counter terrorism mission for our troops in
Afghanistan for at least ten more years. However, since Afghanistan
President Karzai has set new conditions for signing the agreement, U.S.
National Security adviser, Susan Rice, has suggested the prospect of a post
2014 future in which there would be no U.S. or NATO Troop presence in

We can only hope if the bilateral security agreement goes through, our
troop presence there will thankfully be a whole lot less than the nearly
64,000 troops in Afghanistan at the peek of U.S. presence there. But, it
is still, 8,000 to 12,000 Americans in a country that all indications
suggest will not be a particularly stable place. And, it means some kid
who was not even born on September 11, 2001 or October 7, 2001, first day
we started bombing Afghanistan, is going to be doing a tour of duty there
away from his or her family, possibly in harm`s way, serving in a war
longer than his life.

A number of senators left by Jeff Merkley and Rod White in Oregon
believed that before we sign an agreement that will consign some future 18
year old to Winter in Kandahar, the president should come to congress.
And, since we are talking about a decade of American military involvement,
committed to with no vote or consultation, this seems to me imminently

There should be no autopilot for war. I was thinking about all this
two weekends ago, when my family and I went to the Rutgers football game.
Rutgers got absolutely blown-out by Cincinnati, but it was a beautiful
balmy fall day and also military appreciation day, which meant that members
of the ROTC programs were there in uniform and several veterans now
enrolled at Rutgers were introduced to the crowd to an ovation.

At one point, they showed a video on the stadium`s Jumbotron with a
greeting from a Rutgers grad currently serving in Afghanistan. Everybody
cheered and whooped and went back to watching Rutgers defense getting
carved to shreds. My 2-year-old daughter is pretty into football,
actually, but she was far more interested at that point in climbing the
bleachers than watching the game or making sense of the young soldier`s
image from being halfway across the world.

But, she is just starting to enter the age of the perpetual question.
And, so I sat there and I had to think about, how I would explain what she
just saw should she ask me about it. "Who is that man? He is a soldier.
What does he do? He fights in a war. Where is he? Afghanistan. Why is
he there?"

That would be a tough one, would it? Why is he there? I do not know,
kiddo. I do not know. As I was watching her crawl over my lap and under
the bleacher in front of me, I had a brief intense day dream of 16 years
later maybe going to visit her at college and maybe taking her to a
football game, if they still play football then, which is far from a sure
thing, and imaging us still at war and some classmate of hers beamed in
from Kandahar air force base with a flag behind him and if she -- grown-up
she, almost an adult she, asked me why that soldier was in Afghanistan, I
still wouldn`t be able to answer her. So, here is to no more Thanksgivings
in Afghanistan. War is over if you want it.


HAYES: We should do those every night. We are back and I am here
with Sam Seder, Nancy Giles, Josh Barro and Lizz Winstead. All right, I
think the ritual of giving thanks is really important and I really enjoy it
every year. We usually go around in my family. What are you thankful for,
Nancy Giles?

GILES: This is going to be odd, but I am thankful for the Supreme
Court rolling back the voting rights act, because I think that braisingly
horrific act really caught a lot of people`s attention. I think that the
things that the state has been doing in a local level to try to cut back
voting rights and voting eligibility has also serviced a big wakeup call
and a way for people to really organize and show up and fight back and
register and vote. And, they are beginning to understand more than any
time that I can think of that politics really is a local thing. They are
on a local level, because on the local level, so many horrible things are
going on.

HAYES: It is. You are absolutely right that it has been this
galvanizing trigger.

GILES: That was the word I was looking for.

HAYES: To understand the rights are under assault. It has been
incredibly powerful. Sam?

SEDER: I am really thankful actually that we now have about half a
dozen senators who would have signed on to Tom Harkin`s bill to expand
social security.


SEDER: Because, six months ago, it looked like and it was very
possible, if not likely that we were going to see cuts in social security,
because the president had offered that as part of this budget. And, now it
seems like that ship has sailed. We are sort of out of that harbor and we
are looking at not a social security crisis in the future but we are
looking at a pension crisis.


SEDER: And, the 401K experiment has failed. And, so it is good to
start to see. We are seeing some offense here on social security.

HAYES: We did a whole thing on this, about expanding social security.
And, it is amazing when you look at what people have saved and what they
are going to need. I mean it is just like there is the big mismatch -- a
really big mismatch and so it is like we are all coming down the pike here
and like these are our -- there are like our parents. There our loved


HAYES: And, there is going to have to be solutions. Lizz?

WINSTEAD: I want to thank the women of Texas for showing all of us
what it means to stand up for your rights. And, I was just so inspired by
their hard work in times of adversity that I have found a team of my own to
start really focusing on what is going on in the backyards of all the
states in America. So, I am really grateful to them for their hard work.

HAYES: Texas` law, I believe is SP-2, which ended up passing, Wendy
Davis, famously filibustered it. They kicked it over to the next special
session. It passed. It was -- part of it was enjoined at the lower
federal court by a district court judge. That was overridden by an
appellate court. And, that appeal of that injunction went up to the
Supreme Court. It was rejected by justice Glio, which means it is in
effect, which means actual clinics are closing in Texas right now.

WINSTEAD: That is right. That is right. And, things are happening
all in all other of the 49 states that we lived in and people needs to take
notice of it and I am glad they have brought that to the attention of women
and men around America.

HAYES: Josh Barro.

BARRO: I am thankful that support for drug legalization is rising.


BARRO: We had a gallop poll earlier this fall showing 58% of
Americans think marijuana should be legal. And, that is actually
translating to policy in certain places including Washington state and
Colorado that have legalized marijuana for personal consumption.

I think probably the biggest policy injustice in America is the fact
that we imprison hundreds of thousands of people for committing crimes that
had no victim. I think people are waking up to the fact that that is
unjust and a waste of government resources and then it falls especially on

It is something you had tweeted that was a wakeup for me was we have
seen, you know, Rob Ford and Trey Radel using drugs. When Marion Berry
when they are in Washington, D.C. smoked crack in 1990 or 1991. They
actually sent him to prison six months.


BARRO: The guy did six months in prison for that.

HAYES: Right.

BARRO: So, if you are a black mayor and you smoke crack, you go to
prison. If you are a white congressman and you use cocaine, you get
probation. No, I do not think Trey Radel should have gone to jail either.

HAYES: Right. Right.

BARRO: None of these people should go to jail.

HAYES: I agree. I totally agree. Sam Seder from Majority Report,
Nancy Giles from CBS Sunday Morning, Josh Barro from Business Insider, and
comedian Lizz Winstead. Well, thank you all for coming in. That was a lot
of fun.

WINSTEAD: Happy thanksgiving.

HAYES: That is "All In" for this evening. Happy Thanksgiving to all
of you. Happy Hanukkah, happy Thanksgivukkah. We are going to see you
back here on Monday. The "Rachel Maddow" Show starts now. Steve Kornacki
in for Rachel.


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