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All In With Chris Hayes, Wednesday, October 29th, 2014

Read the transcript from the Wednesday show

October 29, 2014

Guest: Matt Barreto, Bernie Sanders, Jim Keady, Howard Dean


CHRIS HAYES, MSNBC HOST (voice-over): Tonight on ALL IN.

GOV. CHRIS CHRISTIE (R), NEW JERSEY: Somebody like you doesn`t know a
damn thing about what you`re talking about except to stand up and show off.

HAYES: On the anniversary of Hurricane Sandy, Governor Christie reams
one of its victims. That New Jersey resident joins me live tonight.

CHRISTIE: Sit down and shut up.

HAYES: Then a thinly veiled slam from President Obama.

talking about American leadership and then are promoting policies that
would avoid leadership and have us running in the opposite direction and
hiding under the covers, it makes me a little frustrated.

HAYES: As a nurse given the all-clear for Ebola fights the governor
of Maine on her quarantine.

KACI HICKOX, NURSE: I am not going to sit around and be bullied by
politicians and forced to stay in my home when I am not a risk to the
American public.

HAYES: Then, the push for turnout in tight midterm races.

Plus, why super PACs are so last election.

up Washington, then your candidate is Thom Tillis.

HAYES: We`ll look at just who is bankrolling who and how.

And news from Ferguson, Missouri.

ERIC HOLDER, ATTORNEY GENERAL: I said I`m exasperated. That`s a nice
way of saying I`m mad.

HAYES: Amid the ongoing leaks of the investigation comes word of big
changes at the police department.

HOLDER: I think it`s pretty clear that the need for wholesale change
in that department is appropriate.

HAYES: ALL IN starts right now.


HAYES: Good evening from New York. I`m Chris Hayes.

At this hour, former Florida Governor Jeb Bush is headlines a campaign
event in Colorado, for the Republican Senate candidate trying to unseat the
Democratic incumbent in one of the most contested battleground Senate races
in the country.

Colorado is also the only state among the seven tightest Senate races
where there is a sizable Latino population, the full significance of which
we`ll discuss in just a moment. But the Democratic incumbent, Senator Mark
Udall, may be counting on that, as well as his party`s ground game to make
a difference against his challenger, Congressman Cory Gardner, who has been
leading in recent polls.

In Arkansas, where it was feared the Democratic incumbent Mark Pryor`s
U.S. Senate seat might be slipping away from him, some good news for the
Democrat. A new NBC News/Marist poll has Republican Congressman Tom
Cotton`s lead down to just 2 percentage points, within the margin of error.
Cotton`s lead was 5 points in the same poll just one month ago.

In an interview with "Meet the Press" moderator, Chuck Todd, Senator
Pryor alluded to the difficulty of being a Democratic senator in Arkansas.


SEN. MARK PRYOR (D), ARKANSAS: We all know, I get criticized by
Democrats all the time for working with Republicans and being sometimes in
the middle, but that`s sometimes a lonely place to be. You know, it used
to be the best place to be was in the middle. But now, it`s harder and


HAYES: In Louisiana, the Democratic incumbent, Senator Mary Landrieu,
continues to face an uphill battle to retain her seat and she faced her
challengers in a debate that began an hour ago. Louisiana being one of two
states along with Georgia in which there`s a high likelihood of a runoff
after election night, possibly prolonging a decision of the control of the
Senate until January of next year.

In Iowa, there`s evidence Republican Joni Ernst is widening her lead
over Democrat Bruce Braley in the fight for retiring Democrat Tom Harkin`s
Senate seat. State Senator Ernst`s 49 percent to Braley`s 45 percent
slightly bucking a recent trend, that according to Real Clear Politics had
shown the race narrowing. It still remains very close.

In Alaska, Democratic incumbent Senator Mark Begich has trailed his
challenger Dan Sullivan in many polls, but those polls are often considered
unreliable and the ground game may save Begich in the end. According to
Yahoo News, Democrats have spent, get this, ten times more than Republicans
on field operations in the state of Alaska.

And that is just a sampling of key Senate races. There are 11
gubernatorial races within three percentage points according to the
Princeton Election Consortium. Along with the Senate races within 3
percentage points, this election cycle is the most tightly contested in
recent memory, far more than the midterm elections of 2006 or 2010. All of
it underscoring the tremendous volatility and the potential for last-minute
shifts, making the turnout operation of each party that much more crucial.

And nowhere is the Democratic Party banking on its turnout effort more
than in the state of Colorado, where according to the Hill Democrats say
they`ve tripled the size of the field operation that helped DSCC Chairman
Michael Bennet narrowly win his election in 2010.

Joining me now from Colorado, where she`s covering the get out the
vote rally where Jeb Bush will be speaking is MSNBC political correspondent
Kasie Hunt. She`s just spoken with former Governor Bush.

Kasie, what did he tell you?


So, I asked him about his son`s comments over the weekend saying he
was potentially likely to run. He said, you know what? Sometimes your
kids say things that maybe are out of turn and that you`ll understand once
you have kids. If you want to take a listen to what he had to say.


JEB BUSH (R), FORMER FLORIDA GOVERNOR: He didn`t talk to me. When
you have kids, you`ll probably have the same frustration. You love them to
death and they have their own opinions, but I`ll make up my mind just as I
said at the end of the year.


HUNT: You want me to toss?

So as you can see there, he said he`s going to make his mind up by the
end of the year. He also said that he`s going to think about it with his
family over the holidays.

And I also asked him about the role of Hispanic voters here in
Colorado. They`re a very key part of the electorate. And in many ways,
the state of Colorado reflects the country better than almost any place in
America that`s facing a competitive contest this year. Bush has been
playing a key role for Cory Gardner, the Senate candidate. He`s cut a
Spanish language ad in the paper earlier today. He was at a Hispanic
Business Roundtable, talking with Hispanic business leader.

So, I asked him about the importance of the Hispanic vote to the GOP.


BUSH: They`re real important. I mean, it`s an emerging voting group
not just here but across the country, and the Colorado party and our
candidates have made a big effort. And I think they`re going to see
significant improvements over the last two election cycles. So, I feel
pretty --


HUNT: So, Jeb, of course, or excuse me, Governor Bush, is somebody
who could potentially have that kind of appeal to Hispanic voters in a
general election. And a lot of the sort of Republicans who are privately
pushing him to run say he`s somebody that could take on Hillary Clinton in
a general election. The question, of course, is whether he`d be able to
get through a Republican primary?

HAYES: Kasie Hunt from Colorado -- thank you.

Colorado is unique in this election cycle, as Kasie just said, for a
very important reason. Of all the contested Senate races, it is the only
one with a significant Latino vote. Latinos are 14 percent of eligible
voters in that state. And it`s the absence of significant Latino
populations in those other races that has created the conditions in which
the GOP candidates feel free to run hard to the right on immigration in the
opposite direction of the course suggested by many party leaders and
consultants following Mitt Romney`s disastrous performance among Latinos in
the last election.

Colorado is an interesting test case. And, in fact, the immigration
rhetoric coming from Republican Cory Gardner has been markedly different
from some of his Republican colleagues, for instance, former Senator Scott
Brown, who has fear-mongered over border and immigration issues in a race
to unseat Senator Jeanne Shaheen in New Hampshire.

By contrast, in Colorado, Congressman Gardner has said he supports the
Senate bipartisan immigration bill and other pro-immigration efforts but
his record as a congressman is mixed. In a Latino decision`s poll, just 14
percent of Latinos favor Gardner, to 55 percent for Senator Udall, and 31
percent undecided.

And joining me now, Matt Barreto, cofounder of the political polling
and research firm, Latino Decisions, and professor of political science at
the University of Washington.

And, Matt, you`ve been saying for a while that actually mainstream
pollsters are doing a bad job of capturing Latino opinion and particularly
capturing Latino opinion in Colorado in this very contested race.

MATT BARRETO, LATINO DECISIONS: That`s right, Chris. Thanks for
having me on tonight.

We`ve been documenting this for a number of years. It goes all the
way back to the 2010 Senate race with Michael Bennet that you mentioned
earlier. In that race, most of the polls indicated that Bennet would lose.
And if you looked at the internals in those polls they had very small
samples only administered in English of Latinos that were not

And, of course, on election night in 2010, Bennet ended up winning a
close election and thanks in part to the large Latino vote that he

We`ve seen this in many other states, not just Colorado. But
Colorado, particularly, pollsters have had a problem getting the Latino
vote right.

HAYES: So, one of the things that`s fascinating in the dynamic here,
you basically had 2012, GOP got crushed among Latinos. Everyone says,
we`ve got to rally behind comprehensive immigration, we`ve got to turn this

We`re seeing that not happen in this election at all. In fact, the
candidates are running to the right. Do you think that is going to hurt
them two years from now or is no one going to remember what folks were
saying about ISIS bringing Ebola over the southern border two years from

BARRETO: Yes, no, I think Scott Brown in particular is damaging the
entire Republican Party with those comments. These are all on tape.
They`re in video. They`re in their own campaign ads. So, they can`t run
away from this.

And the polling we`ve done has suggested that Latinos are very upset
with the rhetoric and the policy stances that many Republican candidates
are promoting today. It is going to hurt them in 2016.

HAYES: And yet, here`s the thing -- this data from Pew, let`s put it
up and folks can look at it as I describe what it is, because it`s key to
understand here. Democrats still have a wide, wide advantage among who
Latinos think is supporting them, right? But it has shrunk between 2010
and 2014 and it has even shrunk from 2012, which suggests that the
Republican tactic to block immigration reform and hope that the blame gets
equally distributed has been effective. That actually, Latino enthusiasm
for Democrats has declined, which is basically the strategic tactic or the
strategic play that Republicans have chosen.

BARRETO: Yes, you know, you`re right. One of the issues was
Republicans were so low, I think they figured we can`t get any worse.
We`ve seen the same thing in our polling.

President Obama is down 12 points in his handling of immigration from
Hispanics. Democrats in Congress are down 12 points.

Republicans are low. They`ve always been low. But the blame is
getting shared and that`s something that the Democrats need to work on.
They need to do more outreach. They need to reassure Latinos that they`re
on our side and they need to fight for the Latino vote in this election.

HAYES: Matt Barreto, thank you very much.

BARRETO: My pleasure, Chris.

HAYES: All right. If there`s one thing we`ve seen so far on the run-
up to 2014 midterm elections, is that super PACs are so 2012. I`ll tell
you why, ahead.

Plus, a Hurricane Sandy survivor, Governor Chris Christie, told to sit
down and shut up, will be my guest. I`ll let him talk, coming up.


HAYES: It`s starting to feel like to a lot of people that the grand
jury will not indict Darren Wilson for killing Michael Brown in August.
And every day, some new bit of information trickles out that makes it seem
like this is all part of some strategy to prepare the public if that is
what ends up happening.

Today was no exception. Some big news dropped on the spending spree
the St. Louis county police department has been on. And the details on
that, ahead.



ROMNEY: Thom Tillis is going to be the guy that makes the Republican
majority in the U.S. Senate. And that`s a good thing for a lot of reasons.
We get a Republican majority in the Senate, will pass legislation, it will
go to the president`s desk, he`ll sign some, he`ll veto some, but we`ll
actually get things done in this country and we`ll end the blockade in


HAYES: Mitt Romney hit the campaign trail with a -- well, honestly
less than plausible message for ending gridlock by electing Republicans.
Stumping for Senate candidate Thom Tillis in North Carolina, a state where
President Obama hasn`t been particularly welcomed this campaign cycle, and
the place that`s emerged as the laboratory for the latest innovations in
dark money.


RACHEL MADDOW, TRMS: So far, the country doesn`t much care about the
midterms elections this year.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The closer we get to election day, the fewer
people seem to care about this election at all.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Voters angry at Washington, also losing interest
in the races in general.

HAYES (voice-over): It`s the midterms and the electorate isn`t

CHUCK TODD, NBC NEWS: It`s a very cranky electorate out there.

HAYES: But f people aren`t tuned in, there`s one subset of voters
that can always be counted on to be paying close attention, the donor
class. More money will be spent on these midterms than any other midterm
election in history, and that`s thanks in part to North Carolina. Its
Senate race pitting incumbent Democrat Kay Hagan against Republican Thom
Tillis is on track to be the most expensive Senate race in history.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re not talking about just North Carolina here.
We`re talking nationally. Outside groups are pouring a lot of cash into
this race.

HAYES: Over $100 million has been spent in the Hagan/Tillis race with
the majority of dollars coming from outside the campaign. Kay Hagan has
spent over $19 million compared to Republican Thom Tillis` almost $8
million. That`s compared to over $76 million that`s been spent so far by
outside groups. The majority of that money spent to defeat Thom Tillis.

But that is not the whole picture. GOP donors who have no interest in
becoming the next Koch brothers are abandoning super PACs for dark money
nonprofits which have looser reporting requirements. And Tillis is running
neck and neck with Hagan on the air, it`s just not showing up in the FEC
books. That`s thanks to groups like Carolina Rising.

AD NARRATOR: Carolina Rising is responsible for the content of this

HAYES: Carolina Rising is not a super PAC. It`s a 501(c)4 nonprofit.
Unlike a super PAC, it does not have to disclose its donors or its spending
on many of its so-called issue acts. According to the U.S. tax code, the
group must be dedicated, quote, "exclusively to promote social welfare."

Now, Carolina Rising didn`t exist before this election. The group`s
president comes from Americans for Prosperity. Its Facebook page says the
group works to, quote, "champion free market, education and government
reform policies that will guarantee a rising and thriving North Carolina."

Those efforts can look an awful lot like ads for Thom Tillis.

AD NARRATOR: Thanks to the leadership of the Governor McCrory and
Speaker Thom Tillis, North Carolina increased funding for public school by
a billion dollars.

HAYES: Carolina Rising has spent over $3 million in North Carolina
that we know of. The group`s president said, quote, "We want to give our
donors the ability not to be harassed."

But it`s not just pop-up political nonprofits that operate in the
shadows. Trade groups like the Chamber of Commerce, which has spent over
$5 million in the state alone, they also don`t disclose their donors.

ROMNEY: Please support Thom Tillis for U.S. Senate.

AD NARRATOR: The U.S. Chamber is responsible for the content of this

HAYES: We don`t know who funded that ad. As for the voters in North
Carolina, they have no way of finding out. And the scary thing is that by
next election, that could be the norm.


HAYES: Joining me now Senator Bernie Sanders, independent from

It`s wonderful to have you here in person, Senator.

SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (I), VERMONT: Good to be with you, Chris.

HAYES: So, this is -- we`re seeing the future here, which is you got
Citizens United and then you have the super PAC era, the era of the
unlimited donations from folks that were making super PACs and you had the
big billionaires like Sheldon Adelson.

Now, we`re in the next chapter, which is -- why do a super PAC where
you have to disclose your donations when you can create these sort of shill
entities and move the money through there and it`s all dark money?

SANDERS: It is, for those of us who believe in democracy, and in my
state, we have town meetings, believe it or not, one person, one vote, no
advertising, hard to believe. These are very frightening times. And
everything being equal unless we overturn through a constitutional
amendment Citizens United, unless we move to public funding of elections,
the billionaire class in a very significant way is going to control
American democracy.

HAYES: Well, let me play devil`s advocate. I saw an argument the
other day from a conservative saying that basically, this new era, that the
old era of regulations that was an incumbency protection racket because if
you`re on the appros committee or you`re a senator like yourself, you can
go to all these entities, you got to give me money because I control
regulation over you, which advantages incumbents, in this brave new world
where there`s money coming from everywhere, you give challengers equal
footing with incumbents.

What do you say about that?

SANDERS: Well, there`s some validity except all the challenges are
owned by the big money people.

Now, what`s interesting is that the Republican Party now, as you may
know, Chris, wants to go further than Citizens United. They think that`s
too restrictive. They want to eliminate all campaign finance regulations,
which means that the Koch brothers will be able to sit in a room and say,
you want to run for governor of Idaho, here`s $100 million. You work for
me. You want to run for senator for California, here`s half a billion
dollars. You work for me.

We`re moving toward a moment in history where members of Congress will
be 100 percent owned and controlled by big money interests.

HAYES: Do you think -- do you as a politician -- you`re a popular guy
in your home state of Vermont. You`ve been elected there time and time
again. Do you think about who will come out of the woodwork to come at me?


SANDERS: Of course I do. When you take on the Koch brothers,
military industrial complex, Wall Street, every special interest in the
world, my God, in a small state like Vermont, they would -- you know --

HAYES: Why haven`t they? I guess my question is if we`re already
arriving at the dystopian world that you paint why does Bernie Sanders
still have a job representing the good citizens of Vermont if they can come
in and blow you away with an ad for dark money citizens of Vermont?

SANDERS: Yes, I mean, there are exceptions to the rule. Vermont is a
small state. I`ve personally met tens and tens of thousands of people from
town hall meeting. People know who I am.

And despite the fact that when I first ran, the richest guy in the
state of Vermont spent an unprecedented level of money, I beat him 2-1.
So, that can happen.

HAYES: Right.

SANDERS: But in large states where people don`t necessarily know the
candidates, where they can define who you are, I think this is very, very
troubling. So, I would argue that for those of us who are concerned about
real health care reform single-payer, for those of us concerned about a
real jobs program rebuilding our infrastructure, concerned about climate
change, the far more important issue underlying whether we go forward or
not has to do with campaign finance.

HAYES: OK. So there`s a problem, though, which is the Senate
Democrats have a constitutional amendment that would overturn Citizens
United, right? That`s not going to happen, I think it`s fair to say or
won`t happen in the short-term.


HAYES: You never say never, things could happen, things change,
America is an amazing place.

In the interim, what do you do? I mean, that`s really the issue,

SANDERS: I think in the interim, what you`ve got to do and what the
Democrats have not been as strong as they should be, is really come up with
an agenda: A, that speaks to the needs of a collapsing middle class. And,
B, if, God willing, the Democrats retain control over the Senate, we have
to end this business of needing 60 votes to pass anything. What most don`t
know is the majority of members of the Senate have voted to raise the
minimum wage, we voted for a jobs program, we voted to pay equity, we voted
for a lot of good things. Nobody knows it because we couldn`t get 60

HAYES: That`s right.

Senator Bernie Sanders, the filibuster is the plutocrat`s friend is my
belief. Senator Bernie Sanders of Vermont, it`s always a pleasure.

SANDERS: Nice to see you.

HAYES: All right. Coming up, I will be joined by the man who had
this nice little back and forth with the governor of New Jersey today.


CHRISTIE: Sit down and shut up!





OBAMA: When I hear people talking about American leadership and then
are promoting policies that would avoid leadership, and have us running in
the opposite direction and hiding under the covers, it makes me a little


HAYES: The president for the second day in a row, and this time with
far less subtly, criticized politicians who have implemented policies
around Ebola that are not grounded in science and were apparently aimed at
the political lowest common denominator. While the president did not name
names that group includes Governor Chris Christie and Andrew Cuomo, even
though Cuomo has since softened his tune on New York`s quarantined order,
and will now allow health care workers returning from Ebola affected
countries in West Africa to choose where to spend their enforced isolation.

State protocols and guidelines that go beyond federal recommendations
for dealing with these kinds of cases are, however, spreading. Most
recently to Maine where Kaci Hickox, the nurse that Chris Christie
quarantined last night when she arrived in Newark after treating Ebola
patients in West Africa, returned home to on Monday.

She has tested negative for Ebola, but Maine Governor Paul LePage
wanted her to remain in voluntary quarantine for 21 days anyway. A few
moments ago, Kaci Hickox told reporters she will continue to be monitored
and report symptoms if they develop, she will not stay quarantined.


HICKOX: There are things we know work and all aid workers are willing
to do those things, but I`m not willing to stand here and let my civil
rights be violated when it`s not science based. I didn`t sign up for this.
I flew into Newark Airport on the wrong day. And, you know, this has all
been a little overwhelming for me. But I still believe that I`m fighting
for something much more than myself.


HAYES: Governor Paul LePage now seen to be scrambling to put together
the legal authority to enforce a quarantine, saying she`s very concerned
about her safety and health and that of the community.


REPORTER: She`s been clear at least somewhat from the initial
quarantine. What are your concerns, Governor?

GOV. PAUL LEPAGE (R), MAINE: My concern is the same concerns we`ve
always had, the concern about a 21-day incubation period and I just want to
protect Maine from that.


HAYES: The director of Maine`s state CDC, in charged with the state
agency, agreed saying that Hickox may have been tested too early. And at a
press conference earlier this evening, Maine`s health and human services
commissioner said that if Hickox doesn`t abide by a quarantine, then the
state will get a court order to compel her to do so.

filing that court order. Unfortunately, lawyers are involved. I have
concerns that she is not
willing to comply with the voluntary requirements, the simplest way to
avoid public contact is to stay at home.


HAYES: Kaci Hickox likely won`t be the last health care worker
battling a state over quarantine rules. Her attorney Norman Siegel tells
NBC News he`s been contacted by a doctor currently working in West Africa
who is scheduled to land at JFK on Sunday and who seems ready to challenge
New York`s quarantine guidelines which means that Governor Andrew Cuomo
could soon find himself in the same position as Governor Christie and
Governor LePage fighting a health care worker who has been
fighting on the front lines of the Ebola epidemic.

You know, three weeks ago I would not have guessed that the politics
Ebola would have conservatives embracing the biggest government solution by
forcing people into mandatory tensions and isolation or seeing elected
officials bringing the hammer down on medical workers volunteering of their
own volition to travel to a place in the heart of the worst epidemic in the
world to fight Ebola. But
then politics always has a way of surprising us, doesn`t it?


HAYES: Confusion reigns in Ferguson, Missouri right now over the
future of the city`s police department as officials dispute a report that
Ferguson`s controversial police chief Tom Jackson is stepping down.

CNN broke the news of Jackson`s expected resignation last night only
to have it be denied from everyone from the Ferguson mayor to the St. Louis
County police chief to Chief Jackson himself who told NBC News, quote, "I
have not been asked to
resign, I`ve not been fired and I will not be resigning next week. If I do
resign, it will be my choice."

Today it remains unclear whether the report was wrong or the people
denying it are simply out of the loop.

MSNBC`s own Tremaine Lee reports that a major shake-up of the Ferguson
Department could come as early as next week and could include not just the
resignation of Chief Jackson but the resignation of Officer Darren Wilson,
the man who shot and killed unarmed teenager Michael Brown in the middle of
a Ferguson street on August 9th.

According to multiple sources, Trymaine Lee reports the plane could
entail a full-scale takeover of the city`s police force by the St. Louis
County Department. And no less a figure than Attorney General Eric Holder
appeared to hint today that there could indeed be big changes afoot.


ERIC HOLDER, U.S. ATTORNEY GENERAL: I think it`s pretty clear that
the need for wholesale change in that department is appropriate. Exactly
what the forms of that change will be I think we`ll wait until we complete
our inquiry.


HAYES: Holder also expressed his frustration with the recent spate of
leaks around the grand jury charged with deciding whether to indict Officer


HOLDER: I`ve said I`m exasperated, that`s a nice way of saying I`m
mad, because that`s just not how things should be done by people..

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What can you do?

HOLDER: Whoever the sources of the leaks are need to shut up.


HAYES: Those leaks seem to prepare the public for the possibility,
some would say, frankly the inevitability, that the grand jury in question
will not
indict Darren Wilson.

And that possibility is now very clearly at the forefront of
everyone`s mind as the Ferguson community awaits the gran jury`s decision
with the growing sense among many that there won`t be an indictment.

Everyone, including, it appears, the superintendents of seven area
school districts who, get this, signed a letter to prosecutor Bob McCulloch
asking him not to announce the decision about an indictment during school
hours out of concern for student safety, suggesting instead he make the
announcement on a Sunday.

St. Louis County Police Department also seems to be preparing for the
spending $172,000 on new riot gear since August, according to figures
obtained by "The Guardian" from the department including almost $25,000 for
tear gas, smoke grenades and over $77,000 for helmets, shields, batons,
shin guards and other
uniform items.

Joining me now is Trymaine Lee, MSNBC National Reporter who has been
doing great reporting on this.

So, as a news consumer what do I make about the dueling reports about
Chief Jackson, about the department -- sort it out for me.

TRYMAINE LEE, MSNBC NATIONAL REPORTER: I think a lot of this is -- as
you mentioned a few minutes ago, some people are in the loop and some are
not. Days before CNN broke this, sources on the ground, local officials,
state officials and a federal official told me that there were indeed and
are indeed conversations being had about Chief Jackson stepping down and
also a takeover of the police

And people even today said this is going to happen it`s just a matter
of time.

HAYES: Now, OK, so walk me through the authority there. The federal
government would essentially use its civil rights authority to take over
department? Would the state do it? Like how does that work?

LEE: Right now the meetings being had, and the conversations being
held around this are in consultation with the federal government because
the federal
government right now has a pattern and practices investigation into the
Police Department. So if they were to go forward and dismantle the police

HAYES: Which they can do, right?

LEE: They could do that, it happened in nearby Jennings where Darren
Wilson actually came from. It was dismantled because of the allegations of
corruption and racial discrimination. I`ve had enough practice with that.

So the issue would be where would that place the investigation if they
dismantled and the county took over, right? And so again it`s a matter...

HAYES: Continue.

LEE: Oh, no, no -- so it`s just a matter of they were still waiting
for these pieces to solidify. They`re still in talks. What happened is
CNN got a bit of it ran with it ahead of any of the sources say, just hold
off. It`s going to happen. So now things are in a little more flux.

HAYES: OK. So, here`s -- I want to give you the most cynical
interpretation of what we`re seeing over the last several weeks. And you
tell me your response to it. So, I`m not saying this is how I interpret
it, but there are people -- this is cynical.

LEE: This is cynical.

HAYES: This is cynical. You`ve got the leaks from the -- someone is
going around leaking tons of stuff all of which seems to be exculpatory on
of Darren Wilson, to say that, you know, here`s all the reasons that it`s
complicated than folks might have assumed and why he isn`t guilty of
something, right. So you have got those series of leaks.

Now you`ve got a bunch of leaks saying, oh, and they`re going to get
rid of the department and they`re going to -- Darren Wilson`s going to get
fired. And then the hammer`s going to drop, which is Darren Wilson`s not
getting indicted.

And the most cynical interpretation is that this is being rolled out,
that everyone understands people are still furious in that community,
they`re still upset about Michael Brown`s death. They still want justice.
They understand what the consequences are going to be if there`s no
indictment, people are not going to be happy. And so this is this crazy
strategy to kind of soften the ground, get people used to it, also we`re
going to get rid of the department -- like what do you respond to that?

LEE: And that`s not just a matter of hysteria, right.

HAYES: Right.

LEE: This can be very real and it seems as though are seeding and
softening the ground for this.

On the flip side, as an administration official said to me, you know,
Chief Jackson doesn`t survive this. The department needs to change.

As Holder -- Attorney General Eric Holder said today that it seems
and clear that there needs to be wholesale change in this department.

HAYES: So, here`s my fear. That what we saw the first time around
was at a very -- a tiny group of protesters precipitated a huge police
response, very militarized. Now you are going to have cops -- we`ve got
$172,000 in spending, according to that Guardian thing, on riot gear, crowd
control, right? It looks like they`re preparing for war.

LEE: Right.

HAYES: You`re going to have these police officers who are going to
head into that day thinking that what they`re going to encounter is riots,
and they`re going to react in a way that has been primed in that way, and
then you get something really gnarly.

LEE: That`s exactly what we saw the first time. When you go through
the list, we have had NBC confirm the list of supplies they purchased. One
thing that was kind of disturbing are these hornet`s nest grenades. When
they explode, they not only send out a chemical agent, but they also fire
rubber bullets at the same time.

I spoke to a politician and the protesters earlier today that says we
are American citizens. What are they preparing for? The first time was
heavy-handed, now they`re gearing up for Armageddon the second time?
Hornet`s nest grenades.

HAYES: Trymaine Lee, thank you very much.

LEE: Thank you.

HAYES: Sobering.

How did Governor Christie mark the two-year anniversary of Hurricane
Sandy hitting his state? By yelling at one of the victims of the storm.


GOV. CHRIS CHRISTIE, (R) NEW JERSEY: I`ll be more than happy to have
a debate with you any time you like, guy, because somebody like you doesn`t
know a damn thing about what you`re talking about except to stand up and
show off when the cameras are here. I`ve been here when the cameras
aren`t here, buddy, and done the work.


HAYES: The man the governor of New Jersey was yelling at, he will
join me here in studio next.




CHRISTIE: I`m glad you had your day to show off, but we`re the ones
who are here to actually do the work. So, turn around, get your 15 minutes
of fame and then maybe take your jacket off, roll up your sleeves and do
something for the people of this state.


HAYES: The New Jersey Resident and victim of Hurricane Sandy who
found himself on the receiving end of Governor Chris Christie`s wrath today
joins me live, next.


HAYES: Today marks the two-year anniversary of Hurricane Sandy. And
New Jersey Governor Chris Christie went to Belmar, New Jersey to mark the
occasion and then this happened.


CHRISTIE: I want to thank you very much. I got the picture. I read
it. OK?
So yeah, you do yours, too, buddy. So we know -- yeah. We know. We know.

Now, listen, you all know me. So if we`re going to get into a debate
here today, it`s going to get very interesting and very fun.

Yeah, I understand. So I`ll be more than happy to have a debate with
you any time you like, guy, because somebody like you doesn`t know a damn
thing about what you`re talking about except to stand up and show off when
the cameras are here.

I`ve been here when the cameras aren`t here, buddy, and done the work.
I`ve been here when the cameras weren`t here and did the work.

So, I`m glad you had your day to show off but we`re the ones who
actually did the work. So turn around, get your 15 minutes of fame, and
then maybe take your
jacket off and roll up your sleeves and do something for the people of this


Now, listen everybody, what we need -- yeah, good. And there`s been
23 months since then when all you`ve been doing is flapping your mouth and
not doing anything. So listen, you want to have the conversation later?
I`m happy to have it, buddy, but until that time sit down and shut up.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My customers want to know...

CHRISTIE: All right? Yeah. Any time you like, buddy. Any time.
Any time. Any time you like.

That`s wonderful, absolutely. Yeah.

I`ll tell ya, there`s about a thousand things I`ll do tonight, going
to dinner with you is about number 1,001.


HAYES: Joining me is the man you just saw in that tape, Jim Keady.
He`s a small business owner and works with citizens
coalition focused on Sandy recovery.

OK, what`s the deal? Why were you there? What is your beef with the

JIM KEADY, FINISHTHEJOBNJ.COM: So Governor Christie was in Belmar
today. It`s a town that I grew up in, it was devastated by Hurricane
Sandy. When the hurricane happened, I actually took a month off from work,
dropped everything and volunteered to help clean out people`s homes. It
actually reached a point within a day or two, the borough gave me a borough
dump truck and I was running all the cleanup crews all over town.

So, I certainly take umbrage with the governor`s comment about getting
one`s sleeves rolled up and doing the work to help the people of New

What we were talking about is...

HAYES: Well, let me stop you right there, you knew what you were
getting into, right?

KEADY: Absolutely.

Look, I`m a former elected official. I served in the city council in
the city of Asbury Park. I certainly know politics. So I had a feeling
the governor
was going to respond in the way that he did.

I think it`s unfortunate. I think he showed so little respect to the
citizens of New Jersey and to the office of the governorship when he acts
way that he did today.

HAYES: All right, so then let`s talk about the substance. His thing
is you`re a grandstander. You want to stand there holding your sign. He`s
the guy getting the work done. He`s there when the cameras aren`t there.
I will note he said that at a podium set up in the middle of the street for
a press opportunity in front of cameras. But what about the record? I
mean, is he right?

KEADY: No, he`s not right.

The RREM program, which is the one that we really want people to focus
on, it`s the reconstruction, rehabilitation, elevation and mitigation
program, there`s $1.1 billion that was given to state of New Jersey to help
families that were impacted by Sandy to get back in their homes.

HAYES: Federal money, big Sandy package gets passed, it comes in.

KEADY: Photo ops, Christie, President Obama...

HAYES: Everyone.

KEADY: Everybody walking on the beach, kumbaya giving the hugs.

HAYES: 1.1 billion.


HAYES: You residents in New Jersey, you`ve been knocked out of your
home from the storm. Here it is, $1.1 billion. What`s happened to that

KEADY: Only 20 percent of those dollars have gotten to the people,
all right? Of the $1.1 billion, $219 million has gone out, that means that
the governor and his staff in Trenton are sitting on $800 million.

HAYES: Is that true?

KEADY: Yes, it`s absolutely true. And you can check the New Jersey
recovery dashboard, this is as of 10/24. Unless $800 million went out the
door in the last four days, it`s still sitting there.

All right, so you`ve got more than...

HAYES: That`s two years after the storm, 20 percent of $1.1 billion
by federal taxpayers to help the citizens of New Jersey, particularly
relocate, right RREM program is folks in their houses.

KEADY: To get them back into their homes, so it may for some people
it may be rehabilitation, for other people the home may need to be elevated
six feet.

So I have this one woman who -- my family owns a tavern in Ocean
County. It`s near the Barnegat Bay (ph), a lot of people got crushed
there. I think of this one woman who comes in, Dawn, she needed to get her
house elevated.

It`s been a year-long process and it`s finally happened. It only took
a year and 45 days to build the Empire State Building. And we can`t get a
one story home raised six feet? It`s just a failure of government.

And this is a governor who said to the people this year that the
number one priority of his administration this year was going to be getting
those families back in their homes. Well, 5,000 of those families have
still not gotten the funding that they deserve. Again, only 20 percent of
the funding has gone out.

So, here`s my thing. If that`s your number one priority for this
year, I`d hate to see the lesser priorities.

HAYES: You`ve also got a situation in which this RREM program, you`ve
got several contractors that were hired to run the RREM program who were
fired without
any public notice of why they were fired. You`ve also got -- my
understanding is, you know, do we have the governor`s approval ratings? Do
we have that? It is -- I saw this chart the other day. I was shocked. I
mean, he is way under water in New
Jersey, way under water.

Look at that black line is his approval, that red line is disapproval.
it starts to flip around Bridgegate, but everything happening after there,
you know, you get the sense that the voters of New Jersey actually aren`t
happy with what is being delivered by that governor right now.

KEADY; Sure. I think his usual bullying routine is wearing thin.
Most New Jersey voters are independents. I`m an independent. They want
the facts. They want effective government. They want their tax dollars
spent wisely. They want people to be accountable.

I didn`t make the governor say that his number one priority was going
to be getting these families back in their homes. He said it. Deliver on

HAYES: Jim Keady, thank you very much.

KEADY: It`s my pleasure.

HAYES: Nice to have a quite conversation just you and me sitting here
in front of the cameras.

There`s a particular genre of political ad out there right now that
involves candidates trying out bumpkin each other. We`ll talk about them
with Howard Dean next.



JONI ERNST: I`m Joni Ernst.

I grew up castrating hogs on an Iowa farm, so when I get to
Washington, I`ll know how to cut pork.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When I got to junior high, I started doing a lot
of farm work.

ANNOUNCER: For more than 20 years Joe Manchin has gotten his hair cut
by the same barber, his wife Gail.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I worked on a bridge crew. I drove trucks. I
operated equipment.

BOY: Luke McFadden is tough.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now, let`s get out there and hit somebody.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When you get through politicking, come on and give
me a hand.

TOM COTTON: I`m Tom Cotton. I approve this message.


HAYES: Mark Leibovich (ph) wrote this really interesting piece
recently about how candidates are basically trying to out-Bumpkin each
other in the
midterm elections, even though they are -- well, Arkansas Republican Tom
Cotton, a lawyer who went to Harvard for both his undergraduate and law
degrees, Minnesota Republican Mike McFadden a one-time investment banker
whose law degree came
from Georgetown, or Iowa Democrat Bruce Braley who is, you`ll never believe
it, also a longtime lawyer.

Nobody wants to vote for a lawyer or some fancy Harvard man, so
despite all that wealth and membership in what has become a self-producing
American elite, you get candidates who insist they are just down home folk.

Joining me now former Governor of Vermont, former chair of the
Democrat National Committee Dr. Howard Dean also an MSNBC contributor.

I am fascinated by this genre of ad because, you know, talking about
Joe Manchin who came from very successful business, made a lot of money,
you know, getting the hair cut ad. Everybody, even Mitt Romney talking
about shooting varmint, right. It`s this affectation that is necessitated
by a political campaign.

HOWARD DEAN, FRM. GOVERNOR OR VERMONT; It`s actually related to the
Tea Party phenomenon. There is a lot of populism out there. And they`re
not all right-wing nut jobs.

These ads are effective, not every one will is going to be effective.
They`re not -- Romney`s is not effective because nobody believes it and the
guy is worth $100 million and has a car elevator.

HAYES: Well, that was his problem, right. He couldn`t overturn that
image no matter how down homey...

DEAN: That`s right. But if you don`t know the candidate and have a
persona that comes out on television, the most important thing is be
genuine. Be who you are.

HAYES: Do you think that`s true?

DEAN: Yes, I do.

So, if there`s not a little bit of the truth in those ads...

HAYES: You think that reads? This is always my question about ads,
because, Joni Ernst is a great example. The hog castration ad, I literally
didn`t know anything about Joni Ernst but that she grew up on a farm
castrating hogs, becuase I didn`t know who Joni Ernst was before I started
covering the race and the first thing you discover is that ad.

DEAN: Well, yeah -- you know, part of it is Braley shot himself in
the foot a couple of times.


DEAN: Part of -- I don`t think most -- most Iowans are pretty serious
people. And I think all things being equal, she doesn`t win, but when you
have a
candidate that kind of appears a little better than everybody else and a
candidate that castrates hogs, it`s funny, too, because her implication,
which she doesn`t say, I`ll go not just cut some pork, I`m going to
castrate some of these guys.

HAYES: Well, let me ask you this question, the reason I wanted to
talk to you is, you`re a very successful governor in Vermont, but you`re
not from Vermont, right, you grew up in New York, you grew up in the Upper
East Side, you came from a fairly educated, affluent family.

DEAN: Right.

HAYES: And Vermont`s a very different place. And at some point, you
had to go talk to Vermonters about who you were and be honest to yourself
but also convince them that you`re one of them.

DEAN: Being a doctor helped a lot. I had a record in the legislature
and as a lieutenant governor, that helped. Vermonters are open-minded
people and they`re community-minded people. And I was very active in the
community. I was a community activist before I was a politician at all.

And I also paid my dues in the Democratic Party. I didn`t try to
start at
governor or something like that, I was the county chairman which is a get
your hands dirty kind of place. So, that all mattered.

And then when I got in the office, I was very blunt and
straightforward. That actually may not play quite as well as I wish it did
in the presidential elections, but it played pretty well when you`re just -
when you`re yourself, when you say this is what I`m doing, this is why I`m
doing it.

HAYES: So, when you were going both through your political career in
and then later that presidential run, do you have conversations with
consultants saying we want this ad...

DEAN: Absolutely not.

HAYES: show this part of you.

DEAN: No, I try never to pay attention to Washington consultants.
They`re always going to screw...

HAYES: But they`re there, right? I mean, some Washington consultant
up with the hog castration ad. Sometimes they have good ideas.

DEAN: They do sometimes have good ideas.

I always was myself. So what I needed is help not doing what Chris
Christie did, that`s a disaster. This guy is never going to be president

Not only does he have the Bridgegate problem...

HAYES: You needed people to stop you from doing that.

DEAN: I needed people to stop me from --- I did that once during the
presidential and it was a disaster. Some guy was really abusive, unlike
the guy you`ve had on your show who was pretty reasonable who had actually
put skin in the game, this is just one of those guys that gets up and
screams at you in the thing. And I said, you sit down, you`ve had your
turn to talk. And it looked terrible on television. You cannot do that
kind of stuff.

HAYES: Authenticity to a point. That`s the model for a successful

DEAN: Respect. You have to respect everybody, even the ones that are
a pain in the butt.

HAYES: Howard Dean. That`s a good summary of electoral politics.
Thank you very much.

All right, that is "All In" for this evening. The Rachel Maddow show
starts right now.


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