'Hardball with Chris Matthews' for Monday, February 23rd, 2015

Date: February 23, 2015
Guest: Michael Kay, Laith Alkhouri, Matt Schlapp, John Lewis, Susan Page,
Lauren Fox, Clarence Page

CHRIS MATTHEWS, HOST: The terrorists point at our heart.

Let`s play HARDBALL.

Good evening. I`m Chris Matthews in Washington.

Tonight, we Americans have been threatened with a terrorist attack in
our country`s heartland, not Baghdad or Damascus or Benghazi, but the Mall
of America in Bloomington, Minnesota. The threat comes from al Shabaab, a
Somali terrorist group. Homeland Security`s Jeh Johnson has warned
shoppers out there to be particularly careful when visiting the giant mall,
and that warning is a real and present proof that the experts think this
call to attack is real, deadly real.

On "MEET THE PRESS," Secretary Johnson said people should be vigilant,
and if they see something, they should say something. Here he is.


JEH JOHNSON, DHS SECRETARY: I`m sure that security at this particular
mall will be enhanced in ways visible and not visible, but it also involves
public vigilance and public awareness. "If you see something, say
something" has to be more than a slogan.

CHUCK TODD, MODERATOR: Like, at this point, you`re not telling people
not to go to the mall.

JOHNSON: I`m not telling people to not go to the mall. I think that
there needs to be an awareness. There needs to be vigilance. And you
know, be careful, obviously. It`s a new phase. We`re in a new phase right
now, and that involves public participation in our efforts.


MATTHEWS: So we start tonight with this call to arms right here at
home from a Somali-based terror group al Shabaab as federal officials call
for increased vigilance. You just heard it.

For more, I`m joined by Michael Kay, a former senior British officer,
and Laith Alkhouri, a senior analyst at the Flashpoint Global Partners.
Gentlemen, thank you.

Let`s go to the practicalities of being a shopper tonight, as we
speak, in real time, in Minnesota. What does "be vigilant" mean to a
regular person? You`re not carrying an Uzi, like an Israeli IDF member.
You`re all by yourself. You`re unarmed. You`re in a shopping mall. What
can you do in any way to protect yourself from a terrorist attack, Michael

MICHAEL KAY, FORMER BRITISH OFFICER: Chris, well, the way that we
measure this threat assessment is capability versus intent. And whilst al
Shabaab have demonstrated they`ve got all the intent in the world, I would
question their capability. And the reason for that...

MATTHEWS: What about our capability? Why are you giving people
advice that doesn`t seem to make any sense? What is a person -- I`m going
back to my question, Michael. What are you supposed to do if you`re a
shopper, Mr. and Mrs. America, and you`re out there buying something you
need for the kids or something, some shoes. How do you act vigilantly in a
shopping mall? I don`t know how that -- what do you do to be vigilant?

KAY: Chris, I don`t think it`s up to the -- I don`t think it`s up to
the shopper to be able to sort of defeat the next incoming attack. What I
think this is a reminder is, is that there should be the emphasis on
Department of Homeland Security and their capability versus foreign policy.

Department of Homeland Security -- they should be looking at their
intelligence capability. They should be looking at the police authorities.
They should be looking at immigration and making sure there are resources
and funded. They should be developing relationships within the Muslim
community. They should be going back through their records and identifying
who these lone wolves might be because if your look back to "Charlie
Hebdo," those people were known to the authorities many years before the
attacks actually happened. So this is a holistic approach that we need to

Now, going to your question, you know, vigilance is absolutely key.
Hezbollah used a very sophisticated network of ordinary people in south
Lebanon to be able to communicate things that they don`t necessarily think
are right. You need a pair of eyes and you need a cell phone, and that
then gets reported through a network.

We now live in a new world order, and everyone has a responsibility,
whether you`re a shopper, a policeman, part of the security forces, to
report something if you see something which is a little bit untoward. And
that involves a cell phone and it involves communication.

MATTHEWS: OK. Today State Department spokesperson Jen Psaki called
the al Shabaab video a scare tactic. Let`s watch.


Of course, we need to remain vigilant, as always is the case. But the
point of this video was to instill fear.


MATTHEWS: Laith, is this a call to arms to people? It seems to me if
it was meant to be a call to a sleeper cell that`s ready to go into action,
we wouldn`t know about it. Is this just a call to people who are
potentially sympathetic to the al Shabaab call, Somali-Americans who are
living up in that area? There are a lot of them.

What kind of communication is this? Is it an order being given or a
call to arms to regular people to join the fight? Can you tell?

LAITH ALKHOURI, FLASHPOINT GLOBAL: Yes, I believe it`s the latter. I
believe it`s a call for so-called lone wolves to attack soft targets.

MATTHEWS: To become lone wolves.

ALKHOURI: Or to become...

MATTHEWS: To become them.

ALKHOURI: Of course, to become lone wolves. But you know, in a way,
you`re inciting them. You`re giving them so-called reasons. You`re urging
them to do so.

But it`s not only about malls, it`s about soft targets in general,
whether it`s schools, theaters and malls. So the idea here is to inspire
those, you know, alleged or potential lone wolves to, you know, buy a gun
from the gun store next door and launch an attack.

You know, the difference here is that it might cause a lot more havoc
in America, even if it`s one of two people are killed versus 67 people
killed in Kenya.

MATTHEWS: Well, what happens if nothing happens the next couple days?
Will it be like North Korea after that movie came out and nothing happened?
All of a sudden, we laugh at it. Are they risking mirth, people saying,
What a bunch of jokers. The Shabaab group can`t do anything. They say
they`re going to attack the mall, nobody does anything.

What happens then, Laith? And then back to Michael.

ALKHOURI: Look, I don`t think Shabaab has the operational or tactical
capability to pull off such attack at this point. I think they have the,
you know, communications and the capability to try to inspire individuals,
especially in the Somali diaspora in Minnesota and other areas, or to
Muslims in general who might adhere to their ideology. I just don`t
believe they have, you know, a sleeper cell waiting for a signal to attack.

MATTHEWS: Michael, what do you think -- what do you think of the
chances of some kid, usually someone in their early 20s -- that`s the
normal time you get to be activists as sort of a paramilitary person --
just saying, You know what? I wasn`t going to do it until I heard this
call. I guess I`m going to go blow something up.

It doesn`t seem like something that would make a person move on a dime
to become a terrorist, to become a lone wolf, just to be called to do it.

KAY: No, Chris, we`ve got to be careful here not to sort of spin
ourselves up into a frenzy. We`ve got to take a step back and look at the
realities of what we`re seeing. And that is, most of the people that
commit these atrocities, as I said before, are known to the authorities --
"Charlie Hebdo," for example. Disenfranchised persons do not turn
overnight. It takes a long process.

There was a great interview done on one of the Canadian jihadists, and
that was a long process over a number of years of going into prisons, then
coming out, going to mosques, meeting toxic imams within mosques, and sort
of developing it over a period of time.

Again, it goes back to this capability versus intent. There might be
the intent there, but the capability certainly isn`t there. And I think
it`s something that we need to just look at holistically. It is a wake-up
call in terms of, you know, we`ve got to make sure that the DHS isn`t being
held ransom by the Republican Party, for example, when it comes to
leveraging those type of things.

We need to make sure that the DHS is appropriately funded and manned
and resourced, if not moreso than what we`re doing on the foreign policy
side because tackling the indigenous problem, where jihadists and lone
wolves have American passports, is as equally difficult as trying to tackle
it overseas.

MATTHEWS: Well, I just think it`s very important. I think you have
to -- we have to respond to the level of urgency that`s been delivered to
us by the secretary of Homeland Security, when he, in this case -- it`s a
he -- goes on national television on a major Sunday program and says, We
got to be vigilant, this is coming, I think we got to take it seriously.

anyway, this comes during a fight -- and you`re right on this fight,
Michael -- a fight over funding for the Department of Homeland Security.
The president warned Congress today not to let it lapse, not to let it run
out of money. Let`s watch.


one week from now, more than 100,000 DHS employees, border patrol, port
inspectors, TSA agents will show up to work without getting paid. It will
have a direct impact on your economy, and it will have a direct impact on
America`s national security because their hard work helps to keep us safe.
And as governors, you know that we can`t afford to play politics with our
national security.


MATTHEWS: Well, Secretary Jeh Johnson of Homeland Security made a
similar plea. Let`s listen to him.


JOHNSON: The clock is ticking. And as I stand here, there is nothing
from Congress to fund us beyond that point. A shutdown of Homeland
Security would have serious consequences and amount to a serious disruption
in our ability to protect the homeland. This is no way to run a


MATTHEWS: Well, several Republicans this weekend also warned it would
be a mistake to hold up funding for the department. Let`s watch them.


SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R), SOUTH CAROLINA: I hope my House colleagues
will understand that our best bet is to challenge this in court, that if we
don`t fund the Department of Homeland Security, we`ll get blamed as a

SEN. BOB CORKER (R), TENNESSEE: I do believe in this time, where we
have the kind of threats that we have from all over the world, we certainly
need to make sure that Homeland Security is fully funded. And my guess is
we`ll figure out a way to make sure that happens this week.

SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R), ARIZONA: I remember the last time we shut down
the whole government -- this would obviously be Homeland Security. The
last time we shut down the whole government, we turned away 600,000
visitors to our national parks here in Arizona. I don`t want to see that
movie again.


MATTHEWS: Interesting sanity there, Laith. But the simultaneity of
these two events, the possibility of a shutdown of Homeland Security at the
very time we`re getting a threat in the heart of the country, not in
Benghazi, but in Bloomington, Minnesota, right on the northern border there
of that state, it seems to me very bad timing politically to be doing
something like this.

ALKHOURI: I think it`s absolutely bad timing, and I think it`s almost
disturbing to think that shutting Homeland Security in any way would do
benefit to the country or even to the world. Look, what the -- so the
presidential nominees will not have protection in 2016 simply because we`re
going to shut down Department of Homeland Security?

Look, I think the Department of Homeland Security, which is in charge
of immigration, absolutely needs to be on top of its game because, you
know, you have to sift through all of these applications for immigrants who
are coming to this country in scores, and of course, some of them could
potentially be dangerous. They could be potentially posing a threat to our
national security at home. So shutting down DHS would be absolutely

MATTHEWS: I think a lot about the American culture has to do with us
here. We have a hard time focusing on events far from our shores, but we
do focus very well on places like Minnesota.

Anyway, the family of Kayla Mueller is speaking out for the first
time. In an interview with the "Today" show today, her parents remembered
their daughter as a caring humanitarian. And this, by the way, brings it
home to people like me, this young woman, how good she was as a person, a
person of the world, and what happened to her. But let`s watch her


MARSHA MUELLER, MOTHER: She was loving. She was joyful. She was

CARL MUELLER, FATHER: Kayla taught us so much. And I think that`s
all I remember about Kayla other than my little girl.

M. MUELLER: We want the world to help us let Kayla still use her
hands to give to the world and to help the people that are suffering, and
especially the Syrian people right now because they have been through so
much. And that`s where Kayla`s heart is right now.


MATTHEWS: Laith and Michael, last thoughts on that. I`ll tell you,
when this comes home to me, it comes home when -- you know, we had the war
with Iran, (sic) the first Gulf war. It was about humiliating our
hostages, but they didn`t kill any. They all came home. There was a level
of civility even in that mess. And Saddam Hussein -- I don`t think he had
a particular fight with the United States. That`s why I had a real problem
with that whole war.

But this in our face. These kinds of threats. And of course, the
killing, the beheading, the burning alive of people has gotten to me, I
have to say, and I think it`s gotten to the American people based upon what
I`ve seen in terms of how people are willing to vote for a use of force
resolution in a way we haven`t been gotten to before. First Laith, and
then Michael.

ALKHOURI: Well, I think, first and foremost, my heart goes out to the
family of Kayla Mueller. It`s such a tragedy. But a group like ISIS,
which has absolutely no value for humanity or for humans, generally
speaking, the -- you know, ISIS has killed more Muslims than any other --
than people from any other religion out there. So they don`t have, you
know, mercy on their own people, they don`t have mercy on anybody else.

And I think the United States has to deal with an iron fist when it
comes to ISIS because this group is only expanding and it`s finding
acceptance among certain communities out there. And soon enough, we`re
going to realize that ISIS is in 30 or 40 different countries without us
realizing it.

MATTHEWS: OK. Yes, e-mail me a definition of an iron fist. I want
to study it. Really. Please do that because I want to know what the iron
fist looks like. I`d like to see how we can do it.

Anyway, Michael Kay, last thought about the emotional impact on this
country. It seems like they`re trying to get at us, these terrorist
groups. They want to get at our souls.

KAY: Right. Look, one thing I wanted to point out here, Chris, is
that long before these beheadings of aid workers and journalists started to
occur, the biggest humanitarian problem in contemporary history had already
started to occur, millions of refugees flooding out of Syria, over 200,000
violent deaths in Syria. There`s paralysis at the United Nations Security
Council, which just goes back to it`s the people of Syria that are getting
hit hard here. We need to go back to the root of the problem, which is
Assad. Foreign policy in the U.S. needs to start developing relationships,
whether we like it or not, with Russia because Russia is key in order to
get any sort of movement on Security Council resolutions, and Iran because
the only reason Assad is still in power is he`s got support from Russia and
he`s got support from Iran. And they`re the relationships that we need to
start being clever about.

The nuclear conversation with Iran -- that needs to be developed to
link in something to do with Syria. Unless we have a political roadmap, as
I`ve said a million times before, Chris, then we will still see ISIS
growing, metastasizing and infecting the rest of the world.

MATTHEWS: Thank you so much, Michael Kay, as always, and Laith
Alkhouri. Thank you, gentlemen, for your expertise.

Coming up -- you want to know about that fight among Republicans
running for president is all about? What`s it all about? It`s about who
can hate President Obama the most. And Rudy Giuliani proved it by
questioning the president`s love of country. Is there someone in the
Republican Party who will blow the whistle on this crap? And that`s the
right word for it.

Plus, politics at the Oscars. "Selma" didn`t win Best Picture, but
there was a powerful moment when singer John Legend, one of my personal
favorites, said the Voting Rights Act is under attack. Civil Rights leader
and hero John Lewis is coming here, right here at this table, to talk about
it tonight.

And Scott Walker, the Republican flavor of the month for 2016, has
shifted hard right, hard right on abortion and personhood. What game is he
playing? He played it down when he was running for governor again last
fall, but now he`s all the way over on the hard right -- a little too
nimble, I think, a little too switcheroo for my liking.

Finally, "Let Me Finish" with the contest of hate, as I said, you`re
watching right now among the Republican candidates for president.

And this is HARDBALL, the place for politics.


MATTHEWS: Well, authorities are still searching for those teenage
girls from London who landed in Turkey last week and are thought to be
trying to make their way to Syria to join ISIS. Their families are
pleading with them to come home.


RENU BEGUM, SISTER: She didn`t take anything with her. I`m just
clinging onto the bits that we have, and we just want her to come home. If
you watch this, baby, please come home! Mommy needs you more than anything
in the world! You`re a baby!


MATTHEWS: Boy, that`s human. "The Wall Street Journal" today
reported that the flow of foreigners to ISIS hasn`t diminished. According
to "The Journal," a U.S. intelligence agency reported last week that
despite greater Western efforts, foreign fighters are streaming into Syria
and Iraq to join the extremists. An estimated 20,000 foreign militants
there include at least 3,400 Europeans. About 100 in Syria are believed to
be from here in the U.S., which is quite disturbing.

And we`ll be right back after that.


MATTHEWS: Welcome back to HARDBALL. The right -- the right wing of
this country has questioned President Obama`s birthplace, his religion, his
patriotism, and now Rudolph Giuliani has put another notch in his belt by
going after the president`s love of country.

Giuliani said that he doesn`t -- he doesn`t hear President Obama talk
about his country`s greatness. As "The Washington Post" noted over the
weekend, quote, "He must have muted the sound whenever Obama spoke."

Well, here`s the president`s love of country in his own words over the


SEN. BARACK OBAMA (D), ILLINOIS: I stand here knowing that my story
is part of the larger American story, that I owe a debt to all of those who
came before me and that in no other country on earth is my story even


OBAMA: But I also know how much I love America.

So let us agree that patriotism has no party. I love this country,
and so do you, and so does John McCain.

I`m enormously proud of my country and its role and history in the

It reminds you about what makes this country so great, why I love this
country so much.

We are surely blessed to be citizens of the greatest nation on earth.

You helped the United States of America become what we are today, the
greatest democratic, economic, and military force for freedom and human
dignity that the world has ever known.

I believe in American exceptionalism with every fiber of my being.


MATTHEWS: Yes, he`s never said anything about loving the country, not
a word out of that guy.

Anyway, the right on the fight -- or the fight on the right still
consumed with its hatred of President Obama, are they? Will anyone stand
up for him or it, or is there no limit to how hard they`re pushing?

Eugene Robinson is a Pulitzer Prize-winning columnist for "The
Washington Post," who I believe will be writing on this tomorrow. I`m
hunching it.


MATTHEWS: And Matt Schlapp is the chairman of the Conservative
Political Action Conference, known as CPAC. But it`s coming up now. He
was also the political director under President George W. Bush.

Let me let you go first.


MATTHEWS: What do you make about the statements by the president?

SCHLAPP: Well, you did your homework. I wish you had shown that to
Mayor Giuliani.

I just think we have a lot of disagreements, right vs. left. A lot of
us conservatives have huge disagreements with President Obama. I don`t
know if we have to go there. Why do we have to question his patriotism? I
just feel like there`s enough disagreement.


MATTHEWS: Let`s try to -- as David Gregory would say, let`s unpack it
a little.


MATTHEWS: Giuliani is not stupid. Why did he do it? He is not
stupid. Why did he do it?

SCHLAPP: Well, I mean, it was a closed press event.

MATTHEWS: Who`s he playing to?

SCHLAPP: Well, it was a closed press event.

MATTHEWS: Who was he playing to with that line that Obama doesn`t
love the country the way we were taught to love it?

SCHLAPP: OK. OK. You know what he`s doing.

MATTHEWS: Tell me.

SCHLAPP: He`s playing to some of the worst fears that are out there
in the country, but also is he`s speaking at an event that he thinks is
closed press.

MATTHEWS: Rich people?

SCHLAPP: And he`s not the only -- and President Obama, they cling to
their religion and their guns. Sometimes, when you don`t think there are
cameras in the room, you let it hang out there a little bit more and it`s
irresponsible. And the mayor shouldn`t have done it.

MATTHEWS: The funny thing is, that`s my idea of a glimpse of reality.


MATTHEWS: What I think Obama did, he was talking a very elite crowd
in San Francisco who look down on those people. I know who he was talking

In this case, I think he was talking to a lot of second-generation,
maybe first-generation Americans, guys with some wealth, Republicans --
East Coast Republicans tend to be that way.

very specific version of patriotism, a version of love of country.

Of course, we all have our different versions of love of country, but
that -- you know, it all adds up.

MATTHEWS: I know that version because it was mine growing up. It`s
Irving Berlin. It`s Kate Smith. It`s God bless America. It`s not
conditional. It`s not about any flaws. It`s, I love this place. And it`s
so simple.

ROBINSON: And I could say the same thing, except mine`s different
from yours, right?

MATTHEWS: Yes. It ought to be.

ROBINSON: So, but it`s -- exactly. And it has to be. But it`s
basically the same.

MATTHEWS: Well, you couldn`t vote.



ROBINSON: No, I couldn`t vote. And, you know, my parents couldn`t


SCHLAPP: Yes, maybe this...


ROBINSON: It`s a different experience. That`s what makes America
great. We`re all different kinds of people.

We all believe in the same thing. We all believe in the country.


MATTHEWS: Anyway, let`s talk about this, because here`s a moment, I
think -- I think -- first of all, I hope that -- I have had mixed relations
with John McCain. I really salute what he did for our country. There`s no
doubt. We all do, what he did...


SCHLAPP: How could you not?

MATTHEWS: How could you not?

And when he said to that woman, he`s not an Arab, I`m not going to
play that game, he ought to get the Kennedy Center -- what do they call it,
the Kennedy Library or -- profile in courage just for that.


MATTHEWS: Anyway, the 1992 presidential campaign -- you may not like
this -- Bill Clinton publicly rejected, well, in this case, the extremist
wing of his party, which was being energized by hip-hop artist Sister
Souljah. Now, the lyrics here are important to what he challenged, but
here`s Clinton.


BILL CLINTON, PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: You had a rap singer here last
night named Sister Souljah. I defend her right to express herself through
music, but her comments before and after Los Angeles were filled with the
kind of hatred that you do not honor today and tonight.

Last year, she said: "You can`t call me or any black person anywhere
in the world a racist. We don`t have the power to do to white people what
white people have done to us, and, even if we did, we don`t have that low-
down, dirty nature. If there are any good white people, I haven`t met
them? Where are they?"

Right here in this room. That`s where they are.


CLINTON: I know she is a young person, but she has a big influence on
a lot of people. And when people say that -- if you took the words white
and black and you reversed them, you might think David Duke was giving that


MATTHEWS: Boy, is that -- I didn`t realize -- I didn`t remember how
hard it was. That`s a punch to the gut.

ROBINSON: He went hard.

MATTHEWS: And Jesse Jackson was in that room, and never forgot it.

ROBINSON: He went hard. It was -- he turned that into a defining
moment. He turned it into a political event.

So, I`m waiting for...

MATTHEWS: What was he saying? I`m not a knee-jerk lefty. I`m going
to find trouble. If I see trouble on my side...

ROBINSON: I`m not a knee-jerk lefty. I`m with you, too. Just, I
want us all to go together.

SCHLAPP: I know where you guys are going on this.


MATTHEWS: OK. You know exactly where we`re going.


ROBINSON: I`m waiting. I`m waiting. I`m waiting.


SCHLAPP: Whoa. Whoa.

MATTHEWS: Why didn`t Jeb -- why didn`t Jeb say something when Rudy
said something?

SCHLAPP: You`re going too far too fast.

Where is the Barack Obama Sister Souljah moment? When has he said to
the base of his own party in a public way no? He hasn`t done that. He has
governed completely different than other...


MATTHEWS: I know you guys gave him a hard time for going back to the
Crusades. Why don`t you go back to this week?




MATTHEWS: Why didn`t somebody step up? It could have been Lindsey
Graham. It could have been anybody. A couple of the people just took a
bye on it. The new word is punted. A lot of people punted on this, like
Walker, Scott Walker.

But some -- Jindal just jumped on it with both feet, saying, yes, yes,
pretty much.

SCHLAPP: I read the comments of Governor Pence. He was straight on.

MATTHEWS: What did he say?

SCHLAPP: He said that this was inappropriate, and we shouldn`t
question the president`s patriotism, period.




SCHLAPP: Well, Jeb Bush came out with a statement.



ROBINSON: No, no, no.


SCHLAPP: I think it`s fair to say that Walker and Jindal did take a

ROBINSON: They`re on one extreme. The other extreme would be...


SCHLAPP: I wouldn`t use the word extreme.

ROBINSON: I didn`t hear Pence`s remarks, but I heard Marco Rubio, who
was very forthright...

SCHLAPP: Marco was great, yes.

ROBINSON: ... and said, you know, you can`t question -- now, as I
recall, Governor Bush said, well, one shouldn`t question the president`s

SCHLAPP: That`s right.

ROBINSON: It doesn`t quite say what he thinks those motives are. He
didn`t quite answer the question, do you believe he loves America?

MATTHEWS: OK. Scott Walker is the flavor of the month. Why didn`t
he say something


ROBINSON: Better than Walker, better than Jindal.

MATTHEWS: Why didn`t Scott Walker say something? We`re going to talk
about it later. Everybody`s loving Scott Walker now, because he`s the new
version of the old.

SCHLAPP: That`s right.

MATTHEWS: He`s the new establishment.

Here`s what he said. "You should ask the president what he thinks
about America." And he added: "I have never asked him, so I don`t know."

What a high school answer. I have never asked him, so I don`t know if
he loves the country.


MATTHEWS: What is this Mickey Mouse answer?


SCHLAPP: And his team -- and his team realized it right away and they
called the reporter right away and said, he wasn`t questioning...


MATTHEWS: So, you`re the clean-up crew for the clean-up crew.

SCHLAPP: No, no.



ROBINSON: What the governor meant to say was...


SCHLAPP: Look, let`s face it. You know this. These guys who we have
been talking about, our deep bench, are starting to run for president.
They`re starting to do their public campaigns.

And it`s going to be growing-up time and they`re going to make
mistakes. And, by the way, Hillary Clinton is making a few herself.

MATTHEWS: You`re flying all over the room here, aren`t you? Let me
just tell you something.

SCHLAPP: It goes both ways.

MATTHEWS: Somebody once told me, a friend of mine who is a senator
now, he said, the galloping horse of history rides by, you better get in
that saddle. That horse is gone now.

SCHLAPP: That`s right.

MATTHEWS: Somebody could have stood up within 24 hours of this and
said, that`s not my America talking like that, and they would have been a

ROBINSON: Which is a good point, because...


SCHLAPP: I think Marco Rubio came the closest to that, in all

ROBINSON: He did. He did. A successful presidential campaign,
right, is taking advantage of those opportunities.

MATTHEWS: He said he has no doubt Mr. Obama loves America.

ROBINSON: And Rubio came the closest of jumping on the horse.

SCHLAPP: That`s right.

MATTHEWS: Well, let`s get Rubio...


SCHLAPP: So, let`s give him credit.

MATTHEWS: Profile in courage, to the extent that we`re able to extend
that award, we give it.


SCHLAPP: I don`t know if he wants it from you, Chris. He`s kind of
doing a different thing right now, you know?

MATTHEWS: You can get that one from anybody.


MATTHEWS: And don`t knock me. You will never be back...



SCHLAPP: Oh, I`m so sorry.


MATTHEWS: I`m just kidding. Sort of.



MATTHEWS: You were well-behaved tonight. Thank you, Matt Schlapp.

Anyway, thank you, Gene, as always.

Win a Pulitzer Prize, so you can sit next to this guy.

And John Legend and Common won the Academy Award last night for best
original song. Here`s what they said during their acceptance speech.


JOHN LEGEND, MUSICIAN: We say that Selma is now, because the struggle
for justice is right now.


LEGEND: We know that the Voting Rights Act that they fought for 50
years ago is being compromised right now in this country today.



MATTHEWS: When we come back: Civil rights icon John Lewis will be
here with us.

And this is HARDBALL, the place for politics.


MATTHEWS: Welcome back to HARDBALL.

That was quite a moment. That was, of course, the great John Legend
and Common performing "Glory," their song from the film "Selma," which won
best original song at the Academy Awards last night.

"Selma," of course, the movie, depicted the civil rights story of the
Selma-to-Montgomery march in 1965, which ended in violence after Alabama
State Troopers attacked demonstrators crossing the Edmund Pettus Bridge.

While those events took place 50 years ago, John Legend last night
reminded viewers of the telecast last night that the fight for voting
rights continues.


LEGEND: We say that Selma is now, because the struggle for justice is
right now.


LEGEND: We know that the Voting Rights Act that they fought for 50
years ago is being compromised right now in this country today.



MATTHEWS: U.S. Congressman John Lewis of Georgia led that march in
Selma 50 years ago. He`s now the author of a series of -- they`re called
graphic novels called "March" about the history of the civil rights
struggle in this country.

And the second book in that series just came out last month. And I
have got it right here.

And you can have it right now. It`s called "March."

Mr. Lewis.


MATTHEWS: I worked on the Hill, so it`s always going to be Mr. Lewis.
It`s not even Congressman Lewis, because that`s the way they...


LEWIS: Oh, you can call -- Chris, you can call me John.

MATTHEWS: No. Well, but I don`t -- I like honorifics.

But let me ask you about "Selma." That guy, how did he -- he -- I
wasn`t close to Dr. King. You were. He seemed like Dr. King to me. I
thought the guy was unbelievable.

LEWIS: Well, the guy, he became Dr. King.


LEWIS: He became the embodiment or the spirit of Martin Luther King
Jr. He did an unbelievable job.

Chris, I love the movie. I have seen it on several occasion, and I
cry. Just, it is so real. He makes it so plain and so simple, like Dr.
King did.

I would attend Dr. King`s church in Atlanta from time to time when he
would be preaching. And his father would say, son, make it plain, make it
real. And Dr. King had the ability, the capacity, to make it real.
"Selma," the movie, made it real.

MATTHEWS: I love the way Dr. King said it`s all in the paper.


MATTHEWS: It`s in the Constitution.


MATTHEWS: It`s in the Declaration.




MATTHEWS: ... make it real.

You`re in the movie. And I thought the guy looked like you as a young
guy. What did you think of the guy playing you in the movie? You were one
of the heroes. You were SNCC back then.

LEWIS: Yes. I thought he did a good job.

When I first met him on the set, he was wearing a trench coat, a
backpack, and that`s what I had on, on March 7, 1965. I wanted to say to
him, boy, give me my backpack. Let me have my trench coat.


MATTHEWS: And the bloody part of it, when you got hit by the cop, by
the troopers, did that feel like it happened? Did that look like it

LEWIS: It did happen. It was real.

I remember being hit. And the scar is right here. My legs gave out.
I fell down.

MATTHEWS: There he is.

LEWIS: And I thought I was going to die. I thought I saw death. I
thought it was my last nonviolent protest.

MATTHEWS: As I mentioned, you led -- Mr. Lewis, you led that march in
Selma 50 years ago next month. We looked back in the archive and found an
interview you gave that day. Let`s watch.


LEWIS: We`re marching today to dramatize to the nation and dramatize
to the world that hundreds and thousands of Negro citizens of Alabama, but
particularly here in the Blytheville area, denied the right to vote.

We intend to march to Montgomery to present said grievance to Governor
George C. Wallace.


MATTHEWS: You were so young, and yet you had that conviction, that
assurance of the cause.

LEWIS: Well, Martin Luther King Jr. and Rosa Parks inspired me to
grow up.

I first heard Dr. King and Rosa Parks in 1955, when I was 15 years
old. It seemed like Dr. King was saying to me, John Robert Lewis, you,
too, can do something. You can make a contribution. And I would ask my
mother, and my father, my grandparents, my great-grandparents why. And
they would say, that`s the way it is. Don`t get in the way, don`t get in

But Dr. King inspired me to get in trouble, what I called good
trouble, necessary trouble. And I have been getting in trouble ever since.

MATTHEWS: You`re a hero. Here we are.

The book, the new book is called "March," book two. You can get this.
This is for younger people and older people. It`s a good way to get the
history and get in a way you`re going to spend a couple hours and you will
have it all in your head. That`s the best thing I can say about any book.
A couple hours, you have got it all in your head, all that history.

Thank you, John Lewis.

LEWIS: Thank you.

MATTHEWS: U.S. congressman from Georgia, one of the best there ever
has, there ever was.

Up next: Scott Walker always played down his opposition to abortion.
But now he`s running for president, he`s done a 180 on this one. This
guy`s a little too tricky, I think.

You`re watching HARDBALL, the place for politics.


MATTHEWS: Welcome back to HARDBALL.

Well, as Wisconsin Governor Scott Walker rises in the 2016
presidential primary polls, and he sure is, he is starting to shift gears
on the controversial issue of abortion. When Governor Walker was running
for re-election just last year against a pro-choice woman, he struck a
softer tone on the issue. He sounded compassionate for women considering
an abortion. Even ran this TV ad advocating to leave the final decision in
these matters to a woman and her doctor.


GOV. SCOTT WALKER (R), WISCONSIN: I`m pro-life, but there`s no doubt
in my mind the decision of whether or not to end a pregnancy is an
agonizing one. That`s why I support legislation to increase safety and to
provide more information for a woman considering her options. The bill
leaves the final decision to a woman and her doctor. Reasonable people can
disagree on this issue. Our priority is to protect the health and safety
of all Wisconsin citizens.


MATTHEWS: But now that Walker is trying to woo Christian
conservatives across the country in the primaries coming up, he`s
underlying his pro-life bona fides and sounds quite different. When Walker
took the stage in front of Iowa conservative activists just a few weeks
ago, he bragged about his staunch pro-life credentials.


WALKER: Since I`ve been governor, we passed pro-life legislation and
we`ve defunded Planned Parenthood.


MATTHEWS: And according to "The New York Times," when Walker met
privately with a group of Iowa Republicans, he highlighted his early
support for a personhood amendment which defines life as beginning at
conception and effectively, of course, prohibit all abortions and, in fact,
some forms of birth control.

Joining the roundtable right now, in fact, comprising it: Susan Page
is Washington bureau chief of "USA Today", which be you go on the road like
I do, it`s always on the door of the hotel, no other newspaper, always "USA
Today", except on weekends. And Lauren Fox is a reporter with the
"National Journal." That`s heavy. And Clarence Page is an opinion writer
with the "Chicago Tribune", who I believe owns a Pulitzer Prize.

Gentleman and ladies, what do you make of this flip-a-roo? I mean,
personhood means forget about it. There aren`t going to be any abortions
or anything like, even not going to be IUDs or anything. There`s not going
to be anything.

SUSAN PAGE, USA TODAY: I don`t think it`s exactly a flip.

MATTHEWS: Oh, tell me how.

PAGE: It`s more like a slide. It`s like before he was saying, I`m
pro-life, but I believe in, you know, letting a woman and doctor make the
decision. Now, he`s saying, I`m pro-life.

MATTHEWS: Wait a minute. My dad always said he was pro-life, but, of
course, it`s up to the woman eventually, ultimately. That`s pro-choice.
If you let the woman decide and you don`t outlaw abortion, it`s up to the
woman. If you are pro-life, you want to outlaw abortion. That is what it

It isn`t your religious belief. My religious beliefs are pro-life.
It`s what you believe the law or the Constitution determines.

LAUREN FOX, NATIONAL JOURNAL: Well, this is what becomes the classic
Republican catch-22, right? Is that when you are running in a state like
Wisconsin, which is a more moderate state, you have to appeal to the left
in order to win and some independent voters. When you are going into
Republican primary, all of a sudden it changes what you need to be doing,
and I think he`s certainly trying to get some of those evangelical voters.

MATTHEWS: What would a conviction politician do in such a
circumstance? A conviction politician?

FOX: I think when you first -- when you first make that choice, it
has to be the choice you stick with all the way, but this was the classic
Mitt Romney problem we saw in 2012 and even before that with him when he
was the governor, he was a much more moderate --

MATTHEWS: I was for it before I was against it.

Clarence, being the other male on the panel here, we have a little
disadvantage in the fact we don`t have a direct involvement in the abortion


MATTHEWS: In many cases. In some cases, it`s a shared decision.
But, I mean --

C. PAGE: Men barge into this decision, anyway, don`t we?

MATTHEWS: I believe pro-choice means you don`t outlaw it.

C. PAGE: Right.

MATTHEWS: And pro-life means you outlaw it. If you saw it`s up to
the woman, you`re pro-choice. I think that adds deceptive then.

C. PAGE: Well --

MATTHEWS: Deceptive, if he`s a pro-lifer.

C. PAGE: You can say charitably, Scott Walker is in a brilliant
position. He`s both pro-choice and pro-life at the same time. He`s a
conviction politician when it comes to being pro-life, but the practical
matter, he will be pro-choice in order to get votes. But, you know, I
mean, look at Ronald Reagan. He was antiabortion, but what did he do
besides appointing some --

MATTHEWS: OK. Let`s go back to reality here. Supreme Court`s going
to decide any change in Roe v. Wade if there is any -- Webster in
Pennsylvania case, the Casey case. It`s always nuanced but it still comes
down to no undue burden. You can`t put undue burdens to a woman making
that ultimate decision like he said in the ad.

So, he starts picking -- we have some older people on the Supreme
Court now including the liberals who are the oldest. What happens if he
gets in there and says, oh, I`m back to the personhood amendment Scott
Walker? I`m not the it`s up to the woman Scott Walker. How do you know
which one you`re electing?

S. PAGE: That`s a dilemma for voters, right, because --

MATTHEWS: He could solve.

S. PAGE: He could solve it by being clear.

MATTHEWS: He could tell us what he is. Everybody knows the aging
reality of the Supreme Court. Who gets to pick the next one? Who retires?

C. PAGE: The cat is out of the bag now. We know now how he feels
about the Personhood Amendment, whether it has a chance of passing, which
it doesn`t. If he`s that pro-life, you`d be really deceived to believe
he`s going to appoint a pro-choice justice.

S. PAGE: I think it`s is one of the things we`ll try to find out more
during the campaign, because what we have now is a report which could be
true. But he hasn`t exactly stood up and proclaimed this from the
mountaintops. So, he`s -- if he`s running for president as he seems to be
doing, he`ll have to submit himself to questions. He`ll have to be in
debates. He`ll be pressed on issues like who would you appoint to the
Supreme Court?

MATTHEWS: Can I ask a woman`s question?

You probably know about reproductive information which a lot of men
don`t know. Of all the eggs that are fertilized, you know, after
conception that attach to the uterine wall, are these people under the
Constitution this guy wants to write? Are they people? Are they citizens?
What are they?

FOX: Well, I think that`s what Scott Walker --

MATTHEWS: Not every fertilized egg, not every conceived egg ends up
attached to the wall and becoming a person. So, what do you do with this
information? Do you ignore it?

FOX: I think this is where Republicans, politicians in general can
get into trouble here.

MATTHEWS: Science?

FOX: This is the classic Todd Akin problem. And we saw it.

MATTHEWS: OK. Science shouldn`t be the enemy of any politician.

Anyway, thank you. The roundtable is staying with us.

And up next, the Academy Awards get political last night. They sure
were. I was thinking Patty Shieski (ph) years ago saying "stop the
politics." Well, they had the politics last night. Depends which side
you`re on whether you liked it.

And this is HARDALL, the place for politics.


MATTHEWS: Well, is Kentucky still Clinton country? Bill Clinton
carried the Bluegrass State in `92 and `96. But Hillary Clinton campaigned
for Allison Lundergan Grimes in last year`s Senate race, but it didn`t
help. Grimes lost to Mitch McConnell by double digits.

Well, still, Kentucky Governor Steve Beshear says Hillary Clinton has
a shot, a shot in Kentucky. In an interview over the weekend he said, "It
will be tough, it won`t be easy but I think she`ll have an opportunity to
do that."

We`ll be right back.



PATRICIA ARQUETTE, ACTRESS: It`s our time to have wage equality once
and for all, an equal rights for women in the United States of America.


MATTHEWS: We`re back.

And, of course, that was a powerful moment. That was Patricia
Arquette rallying call there, she won the award for best actress, for
women`s rights last night. She was one of several Oscar winners who used
their speech to spotlight political issues and personal causes, let`s face

Anyway, documentary filmmaker Laura Poitras who won for her film
"Citizenfour", talked about privacy and government surveillance. Julianne
Moore who won best actress for her role in "Still Alice", a great movie
brought attention to the fight against Alzheimer`s.

And the director of "Birdman", Alejandro Inarittu, talked about the
treatment of Mexican immigrants in this country, and he was rather funny.
Let`s watch him.


dedicate this award for my fellow Mexicans and the ones who live in this
country who are part of the latest generation of immigrants in this
country. I just pray that they can be treated with the same dignity and
respect of the ones who came before and build this incredible immigrant


MATTHEWS: And he also said, the funny line, it wasn`t there, was when
he said, I`m the second Mexican in a row to win an award, they`ll probably
create further restrictions on immigration.

Anyway, we`re back to our round table: Susan, Lauren and Clarence.

Where are you on political speech?

S. PAGE: You know, sometimes -- I think sometimes it can be cheesy
like when Marlon Brando had the Native American woman.

MATTHEWS: Who he hired.

S. PAGE: Whatever.

But I thought they were stemmed from the movies in which most cases --

MATTHEWS: Patricia Arquette was.

S. PAGE: Right, and well, the Alzheimer`s one, and the ALS one. I
mean, those were speaking from experiences that they had gained by making
these movies. So, I thought it was kind of nice.

MATTHEWS: You mean "The Godfather" wasn`t about Native American

S. PAGE: Well, in a way.


MATTHEWS: I think that`s a good argument, because I think Patricia
Arquette apparently, I had forgotten it, but in "a boyhood", she has an
experience --

FOX: She`s a single mother, yes.

MATTHEWS: -- of getting less than she should have gotten.

FOX: Right. And, you know, I think one of the things that we saw was
so many of these issues are being debated and talked about on Capitol Hill.
I mean, what is overshadowing Capitol Hill this week, but a bill to fund
the Department of Homeland Security all tied up because Democrats and
Republicans can`t agree whether or not the Obama administration overstepped
his hand on the executive action, excuse me, on immigration.

MATTHEWS: I was thinking of a conservative Republican watching the
show last night for three hours, and I`ve got a feeling they`re probably
say to themselves, this is why I`m a Republican, they were so liberal, so
PC, the guy running around his underwear, the guy running -- the underwear
scene, I`m sure a lot of them said, OK, Harris, you`re very funny, you`re
very, you know, impressive, but this wasn`t necessary. I think they`ve
already attacked him all day today.

C. PAGE: Somebody did a poll, maybe it`s "USA Today", I don`t know,
but conservatives wanted "American Sniper" to win, and liberals wanted
"Birdman" to win. You saw who won.

But I think --

S. PAGE: I wanted "Boyhood" to win myself.

C. PAGE: Yes. Well, you know, well, I wanted "Selma" to win.

FOX: We all have favorites, yes.


C. PAGE: How you`re going to say, the politics don`t have anything to
do with your choice of the best movie. Everybody did.

I remember Siskel and Ebert, my dear late friends --

MATTHEWS: In the newsroom.

C. PAGE: They used to always say that Hollywood votes not for the
best picture, but the picture they want Americans to think Hollywood would
make if money wasn`t a consideration. That`s why you see quality level of
these movies. You don`t see the big blockbuster moneymakers.

MATTHEWS: I think "Birdman" was about an actor, too. Anyway, I also
thought that and "American Sniper" were both great.

Anyway, Susan Page, Lauren Fox, nice to have you here, and, Clarence,
as always. And you as always.

And when we return, I will finish with the contest of hate that is
going on among Republican candidates for president. Who can hate Obama the
most? And that is the game they`re fighting.

You`re watching HARDBALL, the place for politics.


MATTHEWS: Let me finish tonight with this contest of hate we`re
watching among the Republican candidates for president. How much do you,
how much can you hate President Obama?

It`s like old time events at the country affair. You pick up a big
hammer and see how hard you can bring it down. The guy who gets to bell
the ring and ring the loudest is the stud of the walk.

I`ve said what I thought of Rudy Giuliani`s comment about Obama not
loving the country, but loving it the way -- not loving it the way that he,
Rudy, and others like him were brought up to. Well, that`s Rudy and it`s
never easy to take back what you`ve said.

But what truly astounds me here is the dittoing of his remark by
Republican candidates for president. They have time to talk and think, to
talk to people, to hear people react to the Obama doesn`t love America
talk, and yet, with all of the advantage of time and thought, except for
Marco Rubio and Rand Paul, they`ve either agreed with Rudy or refused to
give out a significant comment.

The answer foretells what`s coming in the long battle for Republican
presidential nomination. The battle line seems to be who hates Obama the
worse? And who is positioned out there with the deepest contempt for the
president? Not simply as a political adversary, but as a man.

Look, if this continues to be contest, count on a sad straw (ph) to
Cleveland next summer because the right wing of the Republican Party may be
looking for its champion hater of Barack Obama, while most people are
looking for a strong, can do leader who comes from somewhere near the
political middle, politically, and can make the compelling case that he or
she can take this country where it wants to go, to greater opportunity for
our children, to greater security for us all. And yes, to less stupid,
wasteful, disgusting crap fights over the kind of Mickey Mouse stuff that
Rudy had just thrown into the arena.

And that`s HARDBALL for now. Thanks for being with us.

"ALL IN WITH CHRIS HAYES" start right now.


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