CHRIS MATTHEWS, HOST: Tonight, HARDBALL‘s holiday gift to you. We‘ve wrapped up the brightest stories of the year, so rip off the wrapping and let‘s play HARDBALL.
Good evening. I‘m Chris Matthews, and welcome to our holiday special. This year America re-elected a president and buried one of our most beloved leaders. Thousands of our sons and daughters continue to fight wars. Tonight, we‘ll take you inside the biggest and brightest stories of 2004, the people, the places, the moments in time that shaped this year.
First, millions of American families gathered tonight to celebrate the season, and to reminisce about the past and loved ones no longer with us. Now we reflect on a uniquely American man we all lost this year. President Ronald Reagan was laid to rest on June 11th, 2004, and the country paused to pay honor by watching his national funeral in Washington.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MATTHEWS (voice-over): When he went on television as he did for four decades, Ronald Reagan played in a higher league than other politicians. In 1956, the Democratic presidential candidate hated television. The high-minded Adlai Stevenson, former governor of Illinois, and future U.N. ambassador, thought it below him. To him, television smelled of Madison Avenue. Worse yet, that little box with the fuzzy picture was a mystery to him, even when he was coerced into hiring a bright young University of Chicago grad Bill Wilson as his consultant on the new medium.
The problem was that Stevenson, skilled at giving speeches in person, had only a faint idea what Wilson‘s job was. “I‘m having a lot of trouble getting a picture on my television set,” the upset candidate phoned Wilson one night during the ‘56 Democratic convention. “Would he be kind enough to hustle over to the Blackstone Hotel and fix it?”
That same year, Ronald Reagan was racking up some of the best numbers on television, when the Democrats‘ guy couldn‘t tell the difference between his media consultant and a TV repairman.
“General Electric Theater” was the third most popular show on television. As I said, he was up playing in the majors while the other side was still in pee-wee.
Nor did he surrender his advantage. Not until that beautiful letter he wrote the country in 1994, telling us of his Alzheimer‘s.
When it came to using television, let‘s agree, it was rarely much of a contest. When Ronald Reagan ran for California governor in 1966, the opposition ran an ad reminding voters that it was an actor who shot Abraham Lincoln. Let‘s count the people that turned off. No. 1, everyone who made a nickel in the film and television industry, and that‘s a lot of Californians. No. 2, everyone who liked movie stars. Three, everyone who knew Reagan not as an actor playing somebody else, but as the guy who came into our home every week as himself. You know, your host, Ronald Reagan. When the politicians were out with the boys riding what Reagan would call the mashed potato circuit, he was home with their families.
As Pat Brown, the once popular incumbent, Reagan bounced from the governor‘s chair said in ‘66, “the challenger had succeeded with the public in making himself one of us. He reduced the Democratic governor to being one of them.”
Reagan liked being one of us. He used television to keep it happening. On GE Theater, he wasn‘t a star. Simply our host. He was going to watch the show along with us. He didn‘t make the company products. He simply enjoyed them at his totally electric home. In politics, that‘s called positioning, and for 40 years Reagan used television to place himself on our side of events.
“There you go again,” he chided Jimmy Carter in their 1908 debate, as if he were sitting next to us on the couch. It was an instinct for the camera that he never lost.
I recall the January night in 1983 when he came to the U.S. Capitol to deliver the State of the Union. Armed with copies of his speech, Democrats on the House floor were planning to bushwhack the president. They found the line in the text of Reagan‘s speech that had gone to the press where he appeared to admit it was the administration‘s duty, his, to do something about the high jobless rate. The Democrats had hatched a plan which they proceed to execute. As the president read the line, “we who are in government must take the lead in restoring the economy,” they rose in a standing ovation, thereby intending to embarrass Reagan.
For a moment, Reagan seemed to be caught off guard. He paused, waiting for the applause to abate, acknowledging the little tease from the Democratic back-benchers with a long, good-natured smile. Then with perfect Jack Benny timing came the haymaker—“and there all along I thought you were reading the papers.”
The Democrats thinking the president was referring harmlessly to the speech text many of them had in their laps erupted in laughter. They had failed to see the mischief. To the people back home in their living rooms, the barb was unmistakable. Those legislators were just a pack of feet-up-on-the-desk, newspaper-reading, cigar-chomping pols. Reagan the master had gotten his studio audience to provide a laugh track for the joke of which they themselves were the butt.
A week later, he pulled a similar number, this time employing the White House press corps as his studio audience. In the midst of an afternoon press conference, his wife Nancy wheeled in a birthday cake. As Reagan cheerily began slicing pieces for those assembled, ABC‘s Sam Donaldson barked out, “But you understand we won‘t sell out for a piece of cake. No deals.” Oh, the president, said, looking directly at Sam, “you have sold out for less than that.”
Ronald Reagan dominated division, not just because of his ability with a script, but his ceaseless attention to the camera. More than anyone else in the room he knew what we would see. That made him one of us, and that right to the end meant all the difference.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
COOPER: At President Reagan‘s burial, his son, Ron, our colleague here at MSNBC, gave a eulogy that included one of the most talked about moments of what was a very dramatic week.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RON REAGAN JR., MSNBC ANALYST: Dad was also a deeply, unabashedly religious man. But he never made the fatal mistake of so many politicians, wearing his faith on his sleeve to gain political advantage. True, after he was shot and nearly killed early in his presidency, he came to believe that God had spared him in order that he might do good, but he accepted that as a responsibility, not a mandate, and there is a profound difference.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: After the funeral, I sat down with Ron Reagan for an exclusive interview on “Dateline NBC,” and I asked him about that line from his eulogy.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
REAGAN: Everybody assumed that I must be talking about George W.
Bush, which I find fascinating and somewhat telling. If the shoe fits.
MATTHEWS: Were you?
REAGAN: Well, I said many politicians. If he is lumped in in that group, then fine. Fine. That‘s all right. I think there‘s a lot of false piety floating around—floating around Washington.
MATTHEWS: Ron, do you feel deeply that the president has used religion to make his case for the war with Iraq?
REAGAN: I think he has used religion to make his case for a lot of things.
MATTHEWS: Including Iraq?
REAGAN: Including Iraq.
MATTHEWS (voice-over): This isn‘t the first time that Ron Reagan has criticized President Bush. Ron says he is an independent. His views have often been more liberal than those of his late father, and that‘s part of the developing struggle over President Reagan‘s legacy.
(on camera): Many of the people in this administration who are most hawkish claim a Reagan mantle here in fighting this war. Should they?
REAGAN: No. With all due respect, I don‘t think they knew my father as well as I did, and another thing I would observe is that my father never felt the need to wrap himself in anybody else‘s mantle. He never felt a need to pretend to be anybody else. This is their administration. This is their war. If they can‘t stand on their own two feet, well, they‘re no Ronald Reagans, that‘s for sure.
MATTHEWS: But the case that is made for preemptive, preventive war is you have to be aggressive. You can‘t simply contain the other side. You can‘t contain communism, you must beat it. Ronald Reagan taught us that. You can‘t contain Saddam Hussein. Ronald Reagan would have knocked him out.
REAGAN: Well, Ronald Reagan didn‘t knock him out. Ronald Reagan did not send troops into Iraq. He was interested in peace. He hated war.
MATTHEWS (voice-over): Ron says he really didn‘t mean to stir up a political controversy with his eulogy, and he wanted to make it clear that he appreciated the president‘s generosity to him and his family last week.
REAGAN: He was very nice about providing anything that the family wanted. You know, staying at the Blair House, the use of Air Force One and everything, and that made life a lot easier, and we‘re all grateful to him for doing that.
MATTHEWS: At the burial, he says, he was most concerned about his mother. In the moments before his father‘s body was to be lowered into the grave, Ron could see his mother was faltering.
REAGAN: She approached the casket, and we could just see her after the whole week just starting to dissolve, and so we as one sort of rushed up there to be with her, and support her there. I mean, it‘s, you know, it‘s a very difficult thing. They‘ve been together for a long time, and she was conscious that, you know, now she wasn‘t even going to have the casket anymore. That he was going into the ground now, and that was, you know—this was good-bye. So touching moment for all of us.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MATTHEWS: When we return, we begin our look at the presidential election, which glittered with Tinseltown celebrities working to get out the vote. I spoke with two of the biggest stars—Ben Affleck and P. Diddy—and later an unforgettable moment when Senator Zell Miller really plays HARDBALL. This is HARDBALL on MSNBC.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REAGAN: I‘m Ron Reagan, and I just wanted to say to all the men and women who are serving so courageously overseas, thank you very much, and hopefully by next holiday, you‘ll be home with your families where you belong.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MATTHEWS: Coming up, our best of 2004 continues with entertainment mogul P. Diddy and actor Ben Affleck. HARDBALL returns after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MATTHEWS: The race for the White House in 2004 began almost immediately after President Bush‘s victory four years ago with the Democratic Party accusing the Republicans of being grinches who stole the 2000 election.
The biggest surprise candidate, Howard Dean, burst on the scene, and even though he didn‘t win the Democratic nomination, he energized the base and millions of young votes. The election attracted the brightest stars in Hollywood and New York. Entertainment mogul P. Diddy spent millions reaching out to the young urban votes with his campaign slogan “Vote or Die.”
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SEAN “P. DIDDY” COMBS, VOTE OR DIE: For the first time in a long time young people are energized. They are interested in the voting process. They are empowered. They were in those long lines waiting for hours and hours. The colleges came out. The—the youth vote has really made their voices heard in this election.
MATTHEWS: Do you have any numbers to suggest that you have really blossomed here in terms of numbers, or is it same old-same old?
COMBS: We are positioned, partners with “Choose or Lose” on MTV. We wanted to exceed 20 million. We have exceeded the 20 million, and the numbers are still coming in, and we know when it gets down in Ohio right now, and we‘re going to be part of the final deciding factor.
MATTHEWS: You know, I was looking at the numbers. We have these polls that we take, the exit polls, and we can talk about them now. The particular questions. I was stunned to see that young voters, 18 to 29, were basically 50-50 on the war with Iraq, 50-50 on whether we—does that surprise you, or are you thinking they‘re not telling the truth or what?
COMBS: No, I think that a lot of young people are dealing with issues right here at home, real-life issues.
MATTHEWS: No, but 50-50 on the war in Iraq. Does that surprise you?
COMBS: It didn‘t really surprise me. I mean, young people they‘re—their ideas and their thoughts—people underestimate, you know, their ideas and their thoughts, and where they can go, and I think they‘ve had a huge impact on this election. People can‘t—they‘re the wild card of the election. You can‘t put them in a box and say you know which way they‘re going to vote.
MATTHEWS: What are the issues that nail—you said you‘re watching these kids walking the line—young people—I shouldn‘t call them kids. They‘re in their late 20s, some of them. What is moving them?
COMBS: Their future. Worrying about education, worrying about jobs, worrying about how to pay for education, health care. Things that are happening right here at home in their communities.
MATTHEWS: How do they think differently than somebody who‘s 70 years old?
COMBS: They‘re just getting involved in the process. They‘re just learning. I mean, I heard you talking earlier, and they still have power. They still have power. If they‘re old enough to go fight overseas, they‘re old enough to vote.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MATTHEWS: Over 20 million people between the ages of 18 and 30 voted. The highest ever. But it wasn‘t the big surprise some predicted would decide this election. Hollywood superstar Ben Affleck hit his hometown of Boston during the Democratic Convention in support of his candidate, Senator John Kerry. I asked Ben about acting, personality, and America‘s political leaders.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BEN AFFLECK, ACTOR: The issue really is, again, I think President Clinton (UNINTELLIGIBLE) quite well last night, that it‘s about competing ideologies, and I think the idea is to try to get the electorate to focus on the agendas rather than simply on the men themselves, who you want to sit down and have a beer with and who you wouldn‘t. They‘re both gregarious, affable, I think decent men who have very different ideas about the future for the country. I think one of the things that happens in television and this constant coverage and this focus on personalities is that that‘s what we increasingly start to see. We see every little details of the candidates, little smiles, smirks. All this stuff. I think sometimes it can be a distraction, frankly.
MATTHEWS: Well, the reason I think it‘s on point, however, is we saw in the last election, and you saw it as well as we did, how personality played such a tremendous role in those three nights of debates between president—between former Governor George W. Bush and former Vice President Al Gore, where really if you look at the numbers in the polling, those debates made it for George W. Bush. He wouldn‘t even have been in the running if it hadn‘t been for those three nights. So we have to focus on it, don‘t we?
AFFLECK: I think absolutely we do. Obviously, the Nixon-Kennedy debates. It‘s a fact of life, and it‘s absolutely something that I am sure both campaigns are focusing on. The interesting thing about those debates, however, is that there was sort of a managed expectations that the Republicans executed really well. Everybody said, George Bush is going to be no good at this. Al Gore is going to whip him. Al Gore is going to kill him. He‘s going to make him look bad. When Bush put a cogent sentence together, everybody said, hey, Bush didn‘t do that bad. And Gore definitely came off—you know, he had a sort of a pedantic way about talking about a lockbox; that didn‘t come off that well. People felt condescended to a little bit, and I think the American public wants a friend, a father figure, and a leader. They don‘t want somebody who comes across like the principal who suspended them when they were in high school.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MATTHEWS: Up next, HARDBALL takes the show on the road. A look at the places and the people who played HARDBALL this year. You are watching HARDBALL on MSNBC.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEN. NORMAN SCHWARZKOPF (RET.): Hello, I‘m General Norman Schwarzkopf. I just want to say to the troops serving abroad all over the world, and especially those people serving out in the Gulf, that we‘re really proud of you, we‘re really proud of what you are doing in the service of your country. Thanks for serving your country, and have a merry Christmas and get home soon.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MATTHEWS: If it wasn‘t enough to cover the election from the studio, HARDBALL jumped into the center of the action as we took the show to the people.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MATTHEWS: Welcome back to Faneuil Hall.
We‘re live from the campus of Case Western Reserve University in Cleveland.
There it is, “The Miracle on 34th Street,” with Edmund Gwenn, John Payne and Maureen O‘Hara, Natalie Wood. We‘re right on the corner. This is the second miracle on 34th Street.
What are you looking for in tonight‘s debate?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I‘m looking to see Bush once again show us what a strong leader he is.
MATTHEWS: How many think that the firefighters were the real heroes of 9/11?
What‘s to say run against Bush? Are you guys partisan or what?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, we‘re not partisan. We‘re just (UNINTELLIGIBLE) against Bush.
MATTHEWS: Give me a break. I can read this thing.
What are you looking for tomorrow night?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Kerry is going to get Bush-whacked. Yeah!
MATTHEWS: How many thought the speech was an A tonight?
You are undecided?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Completely undecided.
MATTHEWS: The world has been looking for you. We have found her.
The undecided voter. (UNINTELLIGIBLE).
What do you think about this convention here in New York?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think it‘s crazy right now, but...
MATTHEWS: Let me make it simpler. How many people here are rooting for Kerry tonight?
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MATTHEWS: HARDBALL also crisscrossed the country to catch the candidates out on the trail. We joined John Kerry in Philadelphia on the day that Bill Clinton made his first campaign stop.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SEN. JOHN KERRY (D), MASSACHUSETTS: He is going from here to Nevada. I think he is going to do Colorado. He is going to Florida. He is going to be out there working.
MATTHEWS: How about Ohio?
KERRY: I think he may go there. I‘m not sure, but I think he may.
MATTHEWS: But he feels good, because a lot of people said...
KERRY: No, no, no, he really feels good. He has lost a little weight, obviously. He wants to. He wants to lose a little more, and he feels terrific.
MATTHEWS: Did he give you any big advice for the last week?
KERRY: Yes.
MATTHEWS: Yes? Did he say push Iraq, go domestic? Give me a hunt.
What did he tell you to do?
KERRY: He just—you know, he really was very concerned about this ammo dump thing that‘s happened today. He thinks that that, and I think that represents the way in which this administration has miscalculated again and again and again in Iraq, and this is serious, because just a small amount of the—if only a few tons of it fell into the hands of terrorists, it‘s more than enough to blow airplanes out of the sky, buildings to the ground. It‘s deadly serious.
MATTHEWS: Is this the source of...
KERRY: And it‘s so basic, it‘s so basic to what we should have been doing over there.
MATTHEWS: Is this the source of all these IEDs that have been blowing the legs off our guys?
KERRY: I can‘t tell you that. I don‘t know the answer to that. But I can tell you this, that there‘s an awful a lot of explosives and weaponry in the hands of insurgents that shouldn‘t be. And it‘s because we didn‘t do the planning, we didn‘t do what we needed. You know, this ammo dump was put in the second tier of category of protection, below the Ministry of Oil? Below other buildings in Iraq, and they didn‘t do what was necessary to protect America and our troops? I think it‘s deadly serious, and so does President Clinton.
MATTHEWS: Was this a problem of the high command, of the president himself not to give specific orders to protect that ammo?
KERRY: I believe that all of those decisions—the president sits and leads the war counsel. You sit at that table, and you ask your generals, and you ask your secretary of defense, have we made sure, what‘s the order of priority? What are our lists? Do we have enough troops? Are we going to be—the fact is, the Army chief of staff said you need several hundred thousand troops. He listened to Don Rumsfeld, who was wrong. He didn‘t listen to the professional military. I think that‘s a failure of the commander in chief.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MATTHEWS: Coming up, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld talks about the biggest story this year, the war in Iraq. There‘s more of HARDBALL‘s look at the year 2004 in just a moment. You are watching HARDBALL on MSNBC.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MATTHEWS: This half hour of HARDBALL, a look back at 2004. Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld on the war in Iraq, and later, one of the hottest moments of the year. The miracle on 34th Street, Zell Miller takes flight.
But first, let‘s check in with the MSNBC News Desk.
(NEWSBREAK)
MATTHEWS: Welcome back to HARDBALL. The biggest issue in 2004 was Iraq. United States won the initial conflict, but securing the peace proved to be more of a challenge than many thought. I sat down with Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and asked him about the decision to go to war and whether it has been worth the cost.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MATTHEWS: Mr. Secretary, let me ask you about the war in Iraq and the boldest question I could put to you here in the Pentagon. Did you ever advise the president to go to war?
DONALD RUMSFELD, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: Well, now, Chris, I saw some clipping of your interviews on this subject when you asked that question of Woodward, and Woodward said that the president said he had not asked me. So, why would you ask me, to have it from the horse‘s mouth?
MATTHEWS: Well, that‘s right, in that circumstance in that room, but all those months in the runup to war, I would imagine that at some point, sitting in the (UNINTELLIGIBLE) of the West Wing, he would have said, “hey, Don, you think we ought to go?” I mean, is there any—weren‘t you ever asked your advice?
RUMSFELD: I don‘t know who he might have asked their advice.
MATTHEWS: Well, apparently he asked the vice president.
RUMSFELD: Possibly. I just don‘t know that. I haven‘t read all these books.
MATTHEWS: He didn‘t ask his father. We know that.
RUMSFELD: Is that right?
MATTHEWS: Well, that‘s all I go by, these books, as you...
(CROSSTALK)
RUMSFELD: You ought to get a life. You could do something besides read those books.
MATTHEWS: This is my life. Let me ask you about something a little more...
RUMSFELD: Let me answer your question about that.
MATTHEWS: Did you advise the president to go to war?
RUMSFELD: Yeah. He did not ask me, is the question. And to my knowledge there are any number of people he did not ask.
MATTHEWS: Does that surprise you as secretary of defense?
RUMSFELD: Well, I thought it was interesting. He clearly asked us, could we win? And I said obviously that the military are sure that they can prevail in that conflict, in terms of changing the regime. He asked if they had everything they needed. He must have asked 5,000 questions over a period of a year about this, that, and the other thing, what could go wrong, what about a humanitarian crisis, what about an environmental crisis, what about internally displaced people, what about fortress Baghdad. Thousands of questions along those lines. And as the president should, to have looked at the risks and concerns that...
MATTHEWS: So he knew the tally sheet of costs and benefits without asking the bottom line?
RUMSFELD: You bet. You bet. I gave him the list. I gave him a list...
MATTHEWS: He knew the chances of resistance down the road?
RUMSFELD: ... of 35 things that could go wrong.
MATTHEWS: He knew the difficulties of occupation...
RUMSFELD: You bet.
MATTHEWS: ... the chances we would have to face the Baathist remnants, the difficulties between these different groups, the Shia and the Sunni and the Kurds. He knew all that?
RUMSFELD: And the risk of ethnic cleansing.
MATTHEWS: By the winners?
RUMSFELD: Yes. And no question he worried through all of those issues in a very thoughtful and probing way. I keep coming back to the question you asked. It does not surprise me that he did that. His response, I thought, was...
MATTHEWS: Isn‘t that the role of the cabinet, to advise the president?
RUMSFELD: Thank goodness, we advise him all the time. But his point was, he said I knew where Rumsfeld was. So he didn‘t have to...
MATTHEWS: Did he?
RUMSFELD: Sure.
MATTHEWS: He knew you were for it?
RUMSFELD: He knew that I had done my job over here and I had looked at the downsides as well as the upsides.
MATTHEWS: Did you think it was the right thing to do?
RUMSFELD: I did.
MATTHEWS: At the time?
RUMSFELD: At the time.
MATTHEWS: Any second thoughts?
RUMSFELD: Well, my goodness, you...
MATTHEWS: I mean, given the costs, you admit that there‘s been a different—a slightly different—well, a different level of resistance than you thought.
RUMSFELD: Exactly. Absolutely.
MATTHEWS: So the costs are higher. You didn‘t expect—you didn‘t expect hundreds of guys to get killed after we took occupation—or took over the country?
RUMSFELD: I still think it was the right decision by the president.
MATTHEWS: You know, we were over at Walter Reid a couple of weeks ago, and I‘ll tell you, there‘s nothing like it, to meet those young guys.
RUMSFELD: You don‘t need to tell me. I go there frequently.
MATTHEWS: The gung ho guys. And the ones that lost like a limb, they‘re going to make it. You know, the guys is going to go back to UPS...
RUMSFELD: They‘re fabulous.
MATTHEWS: ... they‘re going to learn how to use the prosthetic device, but the other guys, you know, totally blind, both arms gone, brain injury. How—is that worth it? I mean, the blunt statement, is this worth what we‘re likely to get out of Iraq?
RUMSFELD: Chris, you are a historian, you know that throughout the history of our country there have always been things that need to be done where lives are put at risk, and the—this country wouldn‘t be here if people hadn‘t been willing to put their lives at risk.
MATTHEWS: There‘s a great sense in country music. Remember how you felt. You heard the songs. They‘re so American. And they talk about the war in Iraq as being some kind of payback or justice for the—what happened to us at 9/11. Do you think that‘s a fair way to look at it morally and sort of sentimentally, the idea that we‘re getting back at the people that hit us?
I think soldiers and many of them probably think that. I‘m just guessing. They think, we got to go and hit them, they hit us, like Pearl Harbor. They hit us, we‘re hitting them back. Is that accurate in history?
RUMSFELD: I guess in life, things are never quite as simple as they seem. There‘s no doubt that we‘re fighting terrorists in Iraq today, and that it‘s part of the global war on terror. The direct connection between 9/11 and Iraq is a different one.
MATTHEWS: Do you see a direct connection?
RUMSFELD: No.
MATTHEWS: You don‘t see an al Qaeda-Iraq connection before 9/11?
RUMSFELD: Well, it‘s not a matter for me to see it. The Central Intelligence Agency and the director of Central Intelligence has testified to the relationships between Iraq and terrorists. We know he was paying $25,000 to suicide bombers.
MATTHEWS: Sure. But they went to Israel, those people. In terms of 9/11, there is no connection? Or is there, between Iraq and 9/11?
RUMSFELD: It‘s too complex a subject for me to answer yes or no. George Tenet has testified, publicly and privately on that subject before Congress, and that is the official position of the United States.
MATTHEWS: Which one? There‘s no connection.
RUMSFELD: No, you have to go back and read it, because it is a complex set of issues, and even perfect intelligence...
MATTHEWS: But the president said recently when he was asked—it was with Tony Blair that time, the prime minister of Great Britain, and he said there‘s no connection between 9/11 and Iraq.
RUMSFELD: If are you asking whether Iraqis who were—the 18 people engaged in 9/11, the answer is no.
MATTHEWS: Do you believe there‘s still a possibility that the Iraqi government had something to do with planning the attack on us 9/11?
RUMSFELD: Not to my knowledge.
MATTHEWS: Therefore this war is not payback for what was done to us on 9/11?
RUMSFELD: The...
MATTHEWS: Iraqi war is not getting even with the people that hit us 9/11?
RUMSFELD: No, I see your point. Yes.
MATTHEWS: Is that the case? It‘s not payback?
RUMSFELD: You asked it originally in a different way.
MATTHEWS: Well, let me try it correctly. Is this payback—is this war—in the sentiments of the music, in the culture of our country, in many people‘s minds, this is somehow justice for what happened to us on 9/11? Is it, or is it unrelated, or is it not directly related? How would you connect the two? You were hit here in the Pentagon. We‘re hitting them in Iraq. Is that connected? Is it justice?
RUMSFELD: If you are asking, is it a direct link between 9/11 and Iraq? The answer is no. If you are asking is the threat to the United States from terrorists that exists and was demonstrated on 9/11 in one manifestation, but exists in a variety of manifestations, and is what we‘re doing in Iraq today a part of that effort against terrorists? Most certainly it is.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MATTHEWS: While the politicians talk about how to fight the war in Iraq, thousands of young men and women have done the actual fighting. We visited with some of those wounded in battle at Walter Reid Army hospital to see how the conflict has changed their lives.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MATTHEWS (voice-over): A dream wedding for Robin and David Glenn. They married in September, 2003 at a military chapel at Fort Bragg, North Carolina. The couple honeymooned at Walt Disney World, and two weeks later, Army special forces medic Sergeant David Glenn shipped out to Afghanistan.
Today David‘s life is very different. He wears his wedding ring around his neck, because his ring finger is gone, his left hand and foot shattered, and his right leg amputated after an anti-tank mine exploded near his humvee while on patrol.
His determined face battle scarred from shrapnel, but also shattered his jaw.
SGT. DAVID GLENN, ARMY MEDIC INJURED IN AFGHANISTAN: I was kind of not all there at first. My head was thrown in, my ears were ringing, I couldn‘t see at first. Some guy, my friend Johnny started working on me at first. And he started patching me up when I started coming around. I started directing him, to make sure he was doing the right things.
MATTHEWS (on camera): So you were basically directing your own treatment.
D. GLENN: Yes.
MATTHEWS: And the first thing was your leg, right?
D. GLENN: Actually, my friend, he wouldn‘t let me see my legs. He—
I was there and not there. But, I mean, (UNINTELLIGIBLE), I saw my hand was pretty messed up.
MATTHEWS: So you were able to keep in control of the situation even if you were hit this way.
D. GLENN: I stayed with it.
MATTHEWS: What kind of word did you get on this of his getting wounded that bad over there?
ROBIN GLENN, SGT. DAVID GLENN‘S WIFE: I actually had a chaplain from his team and another gentleman that was on the team with him prior that was also at our wedding. They arrived at the house and they were waiting for me.
MATTHEWS: You had good training? You had good equipment? And this is the price of war.
D. GLENN: It‘s unlucky. I mean, it happens.
MATTHEWS: Do you want to go back over to Afghanistan or Iraq?
D. GLENN: If I had the opportunity, I would.
MATTHEWS: Why?
D. GLENN: It‘s, I mean, I‘m not trying not to sound brain-washed or anything like that...
MATTHEWS: You don‘t.
D. GLENN: ... but I‘m a soldier. My place to be is—my—I‘m hired to fight wars for this country. That‘s my place. And that‘s where I should be.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MATTHEWS: Our thoughts and prayers are with the soldiers and their families this holiday season.
When we come back, King Abdullah of Jordan talks Middle East politics, and later the hottest moment in television as Zell Miller really plays HARDBALL. You are watching HARDBALL at MSNBC.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hey, everybody. Hang in there, boys and gals. We can‘t wait to have you home and safe. Oh, you have to know everybody is thinking about you this Christmas. Everybody. Everybody is thinking about you. Sending you love. Love is all there is.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Happy holidays, guys. And I wish you all the best, and God bless you. Thank you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MATTHEWS: Coming up, Jordanian King Abdullah on Iraq and the future of peace in the Middle East. And later, Zell Miller says he wishes he could meet me in a gunfight. HARDBALL‘s look at the year 2004 returns after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MATTHEWS: Welcome back to HARDBALL. With the election in Iraq just weeks away, many wonder whether there will ever be peace in that region. I sat down with Jordan‘s King Abdullah to talk about the difficulties of creating a democratic Iraq and how the U.S. is viewed in the Arab world.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
HIS MAJESTY KING ABDULLAH II, JORDAN: The worst outcome if you don‘t have a secular state, in other words, that the new government is strongly represented by those that might have support from Iran. We hope that‘s not the case. As you‘re aware, there‘s an issue of the Sunnis. We want them to go to the elections, we want them to be part of the process. If they‘re not, then there could be more difficulties.
MATTHEWS: Do you fear that the Shia majority may win the election, declare an Islamic state, and form a close alliance with Iran?
ABDULLAH: Well, there‘s a lot of Iraqi Shia that are Iraqi and believe in the future of Iraq, but, at the same time, there is Iranian influence on the Iraqi street, and that is, I think, the worst-case scenario, that Iranian influence government comes to power, and then where do we go from there?
MATTHEWS: Do you think that would be a danger to the region, an alliance between a Shia-led Iraq and Iran?
ABDULLAH: If it was a Shia-led Iraq that had a special relationship with Iran, and you look at that relationship with Syria and Hezbollah, Lebanon, then we have this new crescent that appears, it would be very destabilizing for the Gulf countries, and actually for the whole region.
MATTHEWS: What would it do to the United States role in the Middle East, in that part of the world?
ABDULLAH: Well, it would make it far more difficult. You know, there are some red lines that would have to be drawn, because what you are doing is creating an issue in Iraq that goes beyond the borders of Iraq, and maybe you‘d have to look at the stability of the Gulf countries, of Saudi Arabia, and the rest of the peninsula.
MATTHEWS: Are you concerned that the Ayatollah Sistani is Iranian-born. It‘s said that he speaks with a Persian accent, with an Iranian accent. He seems like he comes from Iran more than just because of his birth. Are you concerned that he may have loyalty to Iran?
ABDULLAH: I think that is the feeling in our part of the world, that that‘s the case. That there is a relationship with Iran. He does have a lot of following on the streets in Iraq, but his allegiance at the end of the day would be to Iran, and not to Iraq.
MATTHEWS: The goal of the Iranian people, as I understand, is to try to gain control of the holy places within Iraq. Tell me about that. Explain that to the West, why that‘s so important in this conflict between Shia and Sunni.
ABDULLAH: Well, for Shia, the traditional holy places are in Iraq. Obviously when Iraq became historically an independent country, Shia religious authority moved to Qum in Iran. It is for this reason why it is very important for Iranians to get involved in southern Iraq, because I don‘t think that they want that religious authority to be transferred to another country. They are sort of the bastion of the Shiite sector of Islam, and to have Iraq as the place of reverence is very destabilizing for them.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MATTHEWS: When we come back, Georgia Senator Zell Miller played HARDBALL but talked “Gunsmoke.” You are watching HARDBALL on MSNBC.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
MATTHEWS: One of the most talked about moments in television this year happened when Senator Zell Miller played HARDBALL with me during the Republican Convention in New York. Moments like this can only happen on live television.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MATTHEWS: I want to ask you about the most powerful line in your speech. And it had so many.
“No pair has been more wrong, more loudly, more often than the two Senators from Massachusetts, Ted Kennedy and John Kerry.”
Do you believe that John Kerry and Ted Kennedy really only believe in defending America with spitballs?
SEN. ZELL MILLER (D), GEORGIA: Well, I certainly don‘t believe they want to defend America by putting the kind of armor and the kind of equipment that we have got to have out there for our troops. I mean, nothing could be clearer than that, than what John Kerry did when he voted against that $87 billion in appropriations, that would have provided protective armor for our troops and armored vehicles.
MATTHEWS: All right, let me ask you. Senator, you are the expert. Many times, as a conservative Republican, you have had to come out on the floor and obey party whips and vote against big appropriations passed by the Democrats when they were in power.
You weren‘t against feeding poor people. You weren‘t against Social Security. You weren‘t against a lot of programs, but because of the nature of parliamentary procedure and combat, you had to vote against the whole package. Didn‘t you many times vote against whole packages of spending, when you would have gladly gone for a smaller package?
MILLER: Well, I didn‘t make speeches about them and I didn‘t put them in my platform.
Right here is what John Kerry put out as far as his U.S. Senate platform, was, he was talking about he wanted to cancel the M.X. missile, the B-1 bomber, the anti-satellite system. I mean, this is not voting for something that was in a big bill.
MATTHEWS: Which of those systems was effective in either Afghanistan or Iraq? The M.X. certainly wasn‘t, thank God, nor was the ...
(CROSSTALK)
MILLER: Look, this is front and—wait, this is front and back, and it‘s two pages. I have got more documentation here than they have got in the New York Public Library and the Library of Congress.
MATTHEWS: OK.
MILLER: I knew you was going to be coming with all of that stuff. And I knew that these people from the Kerry campaign would be coming with all this kind of stuff.
That‘s just baloney. Look at the record. A man‘s record is what he is.
MATTHEWS: I agree.
(CROSSTALK)
MILLER: A man‘s campaign rhetoric—what?
MATTHEWS: I‘m just asking you, Senator, do you mean to say—I know there‘s rhetoric in campaigns. I just want to know, do you mean to say that you really believe that John Kerry and Ted Kennedy do not believe in defending the country?
MILLER: Well, look at their votes.
MATTHEWS: I‘m just asking you to bottom-line it for me.
MILLER: Wait a minute. I said I didn‘t question their patriotism.
MATTHEWS: No. Do you believe that they don‘t believe in defending the country?
MILLER: I question their judgment.
What?
MATTHEWS: Do you believe they want to defend the country?
MILLER: Look, I applaud what John Kerry did as far as volunteering to go to Vietnam. I applaud what he did when he volunteered for combat. I admire that, and I respect that. And I acknowledge that. I have said that many, many times.
MATTHEWS: Right.
MATTHEWS: But I‘m asking you...
MILLER: But I think his record is atrocious.
MATTHEWS: Well, let me ask you, when Democrats come out, as they often do, liberal Democrats, and attack conservatives, and say they want to starve little kids, they want to get rid of education, they want to kill the old people...
MILLER: I am not saying that. Wait a minute.
MATTHEWS: That kind of rhetoric is not educational, is it?
MILLER: Wait a minute.
Now, this is your program. And I am a guest on your program.
MATTHEWS: Yes, sir.
MILLER: And so I want to try to be as nice as I possibly can to you. I wish I was over there, where I could get a little closer up into your face.
(LAUGHTER)
MILLER: But I don‘t want to have to stand here and listen to that kind of stuff. I didn‘t say anything about not feeding poor kids. What are you doing?
MATTHEWS: No, I‘m saying that when you said tonight—I just want you to...
MILLER: Well, you are saying a bunch of baloney that didn‘t have anything to do with what I said up there on the...
(CROSSTALK)
MILLER: No, no.
MATTHEWS: OK. Do you believe now—do you believe, Senator, truthfully, that John Kerry wants to defend the country with spitballs? Do you believe that?
MILLER: That was a metaphor, wasn‘t it? Do you know what a metaphor is?
MATTHEWS: Well, what do you mean by a metaphor?
MILLER: Wait a minute. He certainly does not want to defend the country with the B-1 bomber or the B-2 bomber or the Harrier jet or the Apache helicopter or all those other things that I mentioned. And there were even more of them in here.
You‘ve got to quit taking these Democratic talking points and using what they are saying to you.
MATTHEWS: No, I am using your talking points and asking you if you really believe them.
MILLER: Well, use John Kerry‘s talking points from the—from what he has had to say on the floor of the Senate, where he talked about them being occupiers, where he put out this whenever he was running for the U.S. Senate about what he wanted to cancel. Cancel to me means to do away with.
MATTHEWS: Well, what did you mean by the following...
MILLER: I think we ought to cancel this interview.
MATTHEWS: Well, I don‘t mean...
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
(CROSSTALK)
(LAUGHTER)
MATTHEWS: Well, that would be my loss, Senator. That would be my loss.
Let me ask you about this, because I think you have a view on the role of reporters in the world. You have said and it has often been said so truthfully that it is the soldier, not the reporter, who has given us the freedom of the press. Was there not...
MILLER: Do you believe that?
MATTHEWS: Well, of course it‘s true.
MILLER: Do you believe that?
MATTHEWS: But it‘s a statement that nobody would have challenged. Why did you make it? It seems like no one would deny what you said. So what‘s your point?
MILLER: Well, it evidently got a rise out of you.
MATTHEWS: Well, I think it‘s a...
(CROSSTALK)
MILLER: Because you are a reporter.
MATTHEWS: That‘s right.
MILLER: You didn‘t have anything to do with freedom of the press.
MATTHEWS: Well, you could argue it was not nurses who defended the freedom of nursing. Why did you single out freedom of the press to say it was the soldiers that defended it and not the reporters? We all know that. Why did you say it?
MILLER: Well, because I thought it needed to be said at this particular time, because I wanted to come on...
MATTHEWS: Because you could get an applause line against the media at a conservative convention.
MILLER: No, I said it because it was—you‘re hopeless. I wish I was over there.
(LAUGHTER)
(CROSSTALK)
MILLER: In fact, I wish that we lived in—I wish we lived in the day...
(CROSSTALK)
MATTHEWS: I‘ve got to warn you, we are in a tough part of town over here.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
MATTHEWS: But I do recommend you come over, because I like you.
Let me tell you this.
MILLER: Chris.
MATTHEWS: If a Republican Senator broke ranks and—all right, I‘m sorry.
A Republican Senator broke ranks and came over and spoke for the Democrats, would you respect him?
MILLER: Yes, of course I would.
MATTHEWS: Why?
MILLER: I have seen that happen from time to time. Look, I believe...
(CROSSTALK)
MATTHEWS: What does Jim Jeffords say to you?
MILLER: Wait a minute.
(CROSSTALK)
MATTHEWS: Jim Jeffords, I‘ll remind, switched parties after getting elected.
MILLER: If you‘re going to ask a question...
MATTHEWS: Well, it‘s a tough question. It takes a few words.
MILLER: Get out of my face.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
MILLER: If you are going to ask me a question, step back and let me answer.
(LAUGHTER)
MATTHEWS: Senator, please.
MILLER: You know, I wish we...
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
MILLER: I wish we lived in the day where you could challenge a person to a duel.
(LAUGHTER)
MILLER: Now, that would be pretty good.
Don‘t ask me—don‘t pull that...
(CROSSTALK)
MATTHEWS: Can you can come over? I need you, Senator. Please come over.
MILLER: Wait a minute. Don‘t pull that kind of stuff on me, like you did that young lady when you had her there, browbeating her to death. I am not her. I am not her.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
(CROSSTALK)
MATTHEWS: Let me tell you, she was suggesting that John Kerry purposely shot himself to win a medal. And I was trying to correct the record.
MILLER: You get in my face, I am going to get back in your face.
(CROSSTALK)
MILLER: The only reason you are doing it is because you are standing way over there in Herald Square.
(LAUGHTER)
MATTHEWS: Senator, Senator, can I speak softly to you? I would really like you to...
MILLER: What? No, no, no, because you won‘t give me a chance to answer. You ask these questions and then you just talk over what I am trying to answer, just like you did that woman the other day.
MATTHEWS: Well, Senator...
MILLER: I don‘t know why I even came on this program.
MATTHEWS: Well, I am glad you did.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
MATTHEWS: Let me ask you this about John Kerry‘s war record.
MILLER: Well, are you going to shut up after you ask me?
(LAUGHTER)
MILLER: Or are you going to give me a chance to answer it?
MATTHEWS: Yes, sir.
(LAUGHTER)
MATTHEWS: I am going to give you a chance to answer.
You used very strong words tonight about the Democratic candidate, much stronger than you are using with me. And they will be remembered a lot longer than anything you say to me now. So I am not really worried about what you say now, except that this country was promised unity after the last election by the president that you are supporting. And he urged the country to come together. Do you think you helped that cause tonight?
MILLER: I think I helped the cause of trying to tell the American people why John Kerry is unfit for the presidency and why we need to keep George W. Bush in as the president, because it‘s the way that we can keep this nation more secure and my family more safe.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MATTHEWS: Best holiday wishes. First to Senator Zell Miller, and the best of luck on his new endeavors, and best wishes to all the guests who appeared on this show this year, and to all those hard-working people in politics on both sides. I especially want to thank my HARDBALL production staff who delivered this nightly program and spent a lot of the past year covering the presidential election.
Finally, thank you for watching our show. From all of us at MSNBC, happy holidays.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
END
Copy: Content and programming copyright 2004 MSNBC. ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. Transcription Copyright 2004 FDCH e-Media Inc. (f/k/a/ Federal Document Clearing House Inc., eMediaMillWorks, Inc.), ALL RIGHTS RESERVED. No license is granted to the user of this material other than for research. User may not reproduce or redistribute the material except for user‘s personal or internal use and, in such case, only one copy may be printed, nor shall user use any material for commercial purposes or in any fashion that may infringe upon MSNBC and FDCH e-Media, Inc.‘s copyright or other proprietary rights or interests in the material. This is not a legal transcript for purposes of litigation.