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'Scarborough Country' for August 8

Read the transcript to the Monday show

Guest: Candice DeLong, Adriana Gardella, Jack Hickey, Vito Colucci, Walter

Zalisko, Beth Holloway Twitty, Paul Reynolds

JOE SCARBOROUGH, HOST:  Now, our top headline tonight, Natalee Holloway's mom interrogates a former suspect, Deepak Kalpoe—get this—in an Aruban Internet cafe.  Tonight, we have the full story on what happened earlier today in Aruba, including exclusive video of that shocking confrontation.

Plus, the very latest developments.  And the desperate search for Natalee continues on the island, and new information on three young men who may yet become prime suspects in the disappearance of American honeymooner George Smith IV.  Is enough being done to solve this mystery?  We'll answer that tonight.

Welcome to SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY, no passport required, only common sense allowed.  

ANNOUNCER:  From the press room, to the courtroom, to the halls of Congress, Joe Scarborough has seen it all.  Welcome to SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY.

SCARBOROUGH:  Hey, thanks for being here tonight.  We have a packed show. 

Now, we've got the very latest news from SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY's investigation into the mystery disappearance of American groom George Smith IV, including new information on those so-called Russian passengers, who were reportedly the last people on earth to see the groom alive. 

But first, in Aruba, Natalee's mom confronts a key suspect in her daughter's disappearance.  And she'll be here in a minute to tell us all about that remarkable confrontation and conversation. 

But, first, let's go live to Aruba right now with NBC's Michelle Kosinski. 

Michelle, what's the very latest down there? 


One person she can't confront is Joran Van Der Sloot, the key suspect.  He's still in jail.  But interrogators are really having their way with him.  We've seen him taken in downtown to the police department every single morning, this morning, the same thing.  And, last week, he was taken in every single day for interrogation, including Saturday. 

But insiders are telling us he's still not giving any information to those investigators.  He also had a big weekend this past weekend.  On Saturday, he turned 18 years old.  And that is absolutely not something to celebrate when you're in jail.  In this system, as a juvenile, he was entitled to daily visits from his family and we're told he was getting them, although jailers told us that, this weekend, he didn't have any visitors on his birthday. 

He was also entitled to be kept away from the other prisoners, but legal experts are telling us now, as an adult, technically, in the system, he'll be put in with the general population.  He'll likely share a cell with somebody else and he'll only be able to have visits every week.  Also, jailers were telling us that he was actually beaten or at least punched in the face while he was in jail during a fight.  That happened anywhere from a couple of days ago to a couple of weeks ago, but we're told he's fine, but obviously having some trouble behind bars. 

Police are also telling us now in no uncertain terms that, yes, they want to reinterview both of the Kalpoe brothers, who are still suspects, even though they're out of jail, and that they would like to see them rearrested.  Now, the police aren't telling us on what grounds they want to take them back in, but they're telling us that is something that they're currently working on and possibly something we could be seeing in the near future—Joe.

SCARBOROUGH:  Michelle, things could get pretty tough for the Dutch boy now that he's 18 years old.  Let me ask you, do the Dutch authorities believe that this young man, this 18-year-old, will ever crack or do they think that his dad has coached him so well that he knows, if he keeps his mouth shut, he walks? 

KOSINSKI:  Well, they're not telling us anything about it.  We do talk to the FBI on occasion, also sources, top law enforcement.

They tell us that he's just not telling them anything and that he has said a few things, but it's basically not any information that would help this case.  Obviously, now that he turns 18, he won't have those daily visits, so, if he is getting any coaching, he's not going to get that anymore, except maybe once a week—back to you. 

SCARBOROUGH:  All right, Michelle, thanks so much for that report.  We greatly appreciate it. 

Now, friends, in just a minute, we're going to be interviewing—in just a minute, we're going to be interviewing Paul Reynolds.  This is Natalee's uncle, who comes on our show.  He's been down in Aruba.  He's been going through the search.  We're going to talk about how significant it is that, since Joran has turned 18 years old, he's not going to be getting those daily visits from his father, who ended up giving him a lot more than fatherly advice.  Paul is going to tell you he thinks that he helped him conspire to hide the truth about Natalee.  That's in a minute. 

But, first, it's been over nine weeks since this Alabama teenager disappeared on the last night of her vacation in Aruba.  And the determination of her parents to stay on the island until they know what happened to their daughter has been nothing short of inspiring. 

Now let's go back to Aruba and bring in Natalee's mom, Beth Holloway Twitty. 

Beth, welcome to our show.  And I understand today you actually confronted Deepak Kalpoe.  This is, of course, the young man that reportedly, reportedly, Joran blamed for Natalee's disappearance.  Tell us about that remarkable meeting. 

BETH HOLLOWAY TWITTY, MOTHER OF NATALEE HOLLOWAY:  Well, I don't know how long I was in there.  It might—it may have been an hour.  It could have been longer. 

And we went in there to develop some pictures, and, you know, just trying to give Deepak an opportunity to talk to me.  You know, we know that he has some answers.  And I think one of my—one of the biggest questions that I have is, Joran committed a sexual assault against Natalee in the car, we know, with Deepak and Satish in there. 

And, you know, I just ask him, did you try to help Natalee or did you participate?  And, you know, he can't even answer that.  He would just either refer to it with silence or his attorney told him not to speak with me.  And I just can't imagine, given that opportunity, he would not want to take advantage of it to clear his name, with Natalee's mother standing right there in front of him.  That just...

SCARBOROUGH:  So, you went to this Internet cafe and asked him about the reports of the sexual assault or the rape in the car, and he just simply refused to answer? 

HOLLOWAY TWITTY:  Now, I can't refer to it as rape, but I can refer to it as sexual assault.  That's as far as I can go with it. 

And, you know, I know that there—there—some were occurring.  You know, he would not—no, like I said, either answer me with silence, would not look at me.  I had to keep telling him over and over again, pick your head up.  Look at me when I'm talking with you.  I'm trying to help you.  You know, look at the damage that you—you know, look at what he's doing to Aruba. 

You know, the citizens, I'm sure, are outraged at how he is, you know, just disregarding any type of respect for maintaining Aruba's integrity.  And, you know, there are a lot of people that have been watching, and even from the U.S., and, you know, we're all wanting answers and we're giving him every opportunity to, you know, clear his name.  And, you know, he can't do it.  He can't do it.  He can't clear his name. 


SCARBOROUGH:  We're looking at extraordinary images right now of that meting that you had with him. 

Did you, at any point in this meeting, just simply say, hey, listen, I don't think you're telling the truth; your story that you've been telling the police, or I guess I should say your stories, just don't add up?  Did you call him a liar? 

HOLLOWAY TWITTY:  I didn't call him a liar, but I can tell you, in that hour or hour-and-a-half I was there, I asked him repeatedly, repeatedly.  I was very persistent.  And I did not stop.  You know, we have to have answers.  You know, I kept reminding him, you know, we've got a $250,000 reward for the whereabouts of Natalee.  We are offering $1 million for her safe return. 

We, as her family, are doing everything we can to make this—if there is information, to make it worthwhile, to come forward.  We're giving him lots of choices, opportunities to come forward and do the right thing.  I offered him to please come on one of the shows with me, yours tonight. 

You know, do what—clear your name. 

But, you know, that just shows—that just shows some huge level of guilt and involvement.  He cannot even look at Natalee's mother.  He can't even deny it.  You know, I could maybe not admitting, but he...


SCARBOROUGH:  Yes.  I—I think it's absolutely fascinating that you go in there and he can't even make eye contact with you, that, here you are, the person that's obviously anguished by the disappearance of your daughter and possible death of your daughter, you go try to talk to him, and you've got to tell him, make eye contact with me; look in my eyes. 

I mean, so you sensed that he looked guilty to you?  Was it—was he obviously intimidated by your presence in there? 

HOLLOWAY TWITTY:  I'll tell you, he looked sick to me.  He looked sick with worry. 

All I saw were his eyelids the entire time, except when I would tell him he had to look at me.  That's all I saw.  His head was down.  He was nervous.  I mean, he was just continually, you know, going back and forth to the computer, just frantically typing, just senseless typing.  I could see where I was seated there was just senseless typing.  He was just—just—it was almost that fright or flight that someone gets, but he couldn't flight, so all he had was fright in there. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Now, is he following your campaign...

HOLLOWAY TWITTY:  Obviously, he was on duty. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Yes, obviously on duty, trying to stay away from your questions. 

Is he aware of the campaign, the aggressive campaign, that you're going through every night on TV?  Does he understand that you're not going away, that you're going to keep going back on TV time and time again until you get justice for your daughter? 

HOLLOWAY TWITTY:  You know, I think he is truly aware of it.  And I'm encouraged by the fact that he is watching.  I think he's got a vested interest in this case, you know, because I thought it was amusing. 

The one question that he did ask me—and this was probably 10 minutes before I was leaving.  He told me, he said, the media has not seen this side of you.  And I told him, I'd been saving it for you, Deepak. 


SCARBOROUGH:  What—what side is that? 

HOLLOWAY TWITTY:  I think it's just the side that, you know, I—I will stop at nothing to get answers.  There is nothing that I won't do.  There's nowhere that I won't go, and there's nothing—I'm going to ask every question.  I don't care how painful it is.  I will do it, because I'm not going to have any regrets. 

And there are too many people that have been supporting me and they want answers, too.  So, if I'm in the position to ask them, I need to—I need to take advantage of it.  And so, I had the opportunity and I did the best I could, because, you know, it's—it's a tragedy for Aruba and it's a tragedy for—for all of us involved.  These citizens deserve better than that.  They deserve—they're good people here.  They do not deserve to be put through what Deepak and Satish Kalpoe and Joran Van Der Sloot and the father, Paulus, are putting them through.  They're subjecting their country to this.  And it's—it's—it is a tragedy.  It is a shame. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Did you ever ask him questions like, where is my daughter?  Is my daughter still alive?  Did you kill my daughter?  Did it ever go to that level, where you were really asking just the tough, tough questions? 

HOLLOWAY TWITTY:  Joe, I've got a lot more days on this island, so I'm not going anywhere.  I've got plenty of time.  I've got lots more pictures to be developed at the Internet cafe. 


HOLLOWAY TWITTY:  So, just going to slowly. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Yes.  So, you—you plan on going back there? 

HOLLOWAY TWITTY:  Well, absolutely.  I've got more pictures to be developed.  Yes.  I'll...


HOLLOWAY TWITTY:  It's a great place to go.  Also, I've got to go back because I was so saddened that Natalee's poster had been taken down. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Really?  Inside the Internet cafe?


SCARBOROUGH:  It's remarkable that here... 


SCARBOROUGH:  Here we have, again, people writing around the United States, thousands of miles away, and yet they're taking the posters down there.  Did you mention that to him?  Did you mention it to anybody in the store? 

HOLLOWAY TWITTY:  Oh, absolutely.  There was a customer at the counter the same time I was there.  And I just—you know, the man knew who I was.

And I, you know, had to explain that the reward for the $1 million for a safe return and the $250,000 for her whereabouts, because, you know, the tourists that come here, they ask me, where are her posters?  Why don't you have her posters up?  And, if I put them up, I can't help it if this business owner took her poster down. 

It saddened me greatly, because we are trying everything we can, as her family, to bring forth a resolution.  But we've got to have some help.  And, for the most part, they remain in these businesses on the walls and on the glass doors, and which is—you know, that's where we—we need to get the message out, but, if I put one up and his owner—this is what Deepak told me, that his—that his—either his manager or boss made him take it down. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Yes, whatever.

HOLLOWAY TWITTY:  So, the only thing I know to do is to go back and try again. 


SCARBOROUGH:  Do it again. 

So—so, you—here, you were with Deepak for an hour, at least an hour.  You saw him avert his eyes from you.  You saw him look down.  You saw him type nervously.  In reading, and I—I go back to the first night you got to the island.  You immediately figured out that Joran and Paulus Van Der Sloot were involved just by reading their body language. 

After being in the presence of Deepak for an hour earlier today, are you convinced that he is involved in the disappearance of Natalee? 

HOLLOWAY TWITTY:  Oh, absolutely. 

And anybody that was in there and saw him would -- 100 percent conclusion.  There wouldn't be one person, there would not be one person that didn't believe that he had involvement if they would have been in there and witnessed and been in his presence.  There's no one, there's no one that wouldn't believe that he has involvement. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Beth, please stay with us, because, when we come back, I want to ask about Joran Van Der Sloot, who may walk free in less than a month. 


SCARBOROUGH:  Coming up, the latest details on what really happened the minutes after George Smith disappeared and a pool of blood appeared underneath his cabin. 

Plus, more with Beth Holloway Twitty. 


SCARBOROUGH:  Welcome back. 

Deepak Kalpoe has been in and out of custody since Natalee Holloway vanished on May 30.  But today was the first time he had a chance to speak with Natalee's mom, Beth.  It wasn't pretty. 

So, what's it like standing across a counter from this guy, knowing that he's responsible for this hell that you've been going through and the hell that Natalee's gone through, and yet he's just sitting there safely on the other side, keeping it all to himself?  How do you deal with that?

HOLLOWAY TWITTY:  You know, I just felt so safe, because I'm—there's—the supporters are huge, and I know that I'm truly supported in thoughts and prayers.  And I felt, I felt really confident to go in there and to ask him the questions and stay on them and be persistent.  And I feel as if I can continue to do that.  So, supporters are huge. 

SCARBOROUGH:  You know, Beth, I think—Beth, I think a lot of people were heartened by your attitude when you went back to Aruba, but obviously down, like you, on Friday, after you came out of your meeting with the—with the authorities in Aruba and you were—it seemed that you were depressed, that you were despondent, that you believed that you weren't going to get answers. 

What went on in that meeting that caused you so much pain on Friday and throughout the weekend? 

HOLLOWAY TWITTY:  You know, it really wasn't so much what went on, but, you know, we've done this before.  And I felt really encouraged going into July 4 that Deepak and Satish would remain in custody.  And that was kind of the sign that I was getting, that we were looking for, you know, them to remain in custody, at least—at least one.  I realized I might not get both, but really was just shocked.

And I—you know, I—you know, you just—when you come out of these meetings and you kind of hear the same, that it's looking—you know, that Joran will remain in custody and that there's a possibility of other, you know, people being questioned, but you've got to remember, I went through that before on July the 4th, and I was just let down so much.  So, I just—I think I'm just always expecting the worst. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Yes.  What hope do you have...

HOLLOWAY TWITTY:  It just seems like that is what has happened all along. 


Unfortunately, the Aruban authorities and the Dutch authorities haven't given you a lot of reason to hope that they're going to investigate this aggressively.  Do you have any hope tonight that that might be changing?  Are you—are you heartened by the Dutch authorities, at the way they've been interrogating Joran the past few days? 

HOLLOWAY TWITTY:  Oh, absolutely.  Absolutely. 

And I'm—I'm—I think that these Holland officials are just incredible, from what I'm hearing.  And—and, you know, I think that it's just probably just had a different approach, or a different look, not to say that one vs. the other.  But I—I think that it's—you know, there are some highs and lows.  And—but I'm—I'm thinking that these—these guys that have come in are just absolutely doing an incredible job. 

So, I just hope they had enough to work with.  So, we'll just wait and see. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Yes.  Beth, thanks again.  We—as always, we greatly appreciate you being with us tonight. 

HOLLOWAY TWITTY:  OK.  Thank you. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Now, for as long as Natalee Holloway's been missing, there's been a lot of speculation about what role Joran's father, Paul, played in this terrible tragedy. 

I'm joined now by Natalee's uncle, Paul Reynolds, who comes to SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY tonight with a story that may shock you. 

Paul, what information have you learned from a source close to this investigation, obviously, since we last talked, talked about what Paul's part has been in possibly covering up a possible kidnapping, possible murder? 

PAUL REYNOLDS, UNCLE OF NATALEE HOLLOWAY:  Well, you know, we've heard for some time that he told the boys that, no body, no crime.  And, you know, that—that in itself is—in our opinion, goes beyond legal advice. 

But, you know, we've also learned that, you know, he told them not to use their cell phones.  Their cell phones would be bugged.  You know, he told them to get their stories straight.  You know, we think he knows what happened and he's telling them to get their stories straight and to alter their hard drives. 

He went so far as to tell them to alter their computers and then use their e-mail to set up an alibi.  I mean, setting up an alibi, you know, hiding from whoever might be watching, you know, this goes beyond legal advice.  This is—this is co-conspirator status, in our opinion. 

SCARBOROUGH:  This is shocking information that you're giving us.  So, you're saying that a source close to this investigation has told you the father goes in—of course, we already know from the prosecutor he said, no body, no crime. 

Then we find out and that he goes in and says, don't use your cell phones.  Don't use your e-mail.  Go in, alter your hard drive on your computer.  Get your stories straight.  Don't say anything wrong for 10 days, and then they let you go. 

REYNOLDS:  Right, 10 days...


SCARBOROUGH:  Shocking—shocking information. 

REYNOLDS:  And then he tells them to keep calm; 10 days in jail, and you'll be out of there. 

SCARBOROUGH:  And that's been the case for the two Kalpoe brothers, right? 

REYNOLDS:  You know, it—we don't under—understand it. 

And that's why my sister is—you know, feels compelled to go and try

to talk to Deepak, to try to get some information, because, you know, why

he was let go just doesn't make any sense to us.  And then you look at the

·         the Van Der Sloot property.  Here, you have the father, who is intentionally hiding something, and, you know, the police and EquuSearch are not allowed to search, but only specific areas of the property. 

The search warrant the police had only allowed them to go into Joran's apartment.  The house was off-limits.  The grounds were of-limits.  And this is all within the confines of the fence.  It doesn't make any sense. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Can you give us information, any information at all, about who your source is that—that's given you the shocking insight into what Paul Van Der Sloot told his son and these two boys on this cover-up? 

REYNOLDS:  I can't give you that, but it is a very credible source. 

SCARBOROUGH:  What about—you also have new information about what Paul Van Der Sloot was doing with his son the night that Natalee disappeared.  Can you tell us about that? 

REYNOLDS:  Well, he and his son were gambling that evening, earlier that evening.  And, you know, that concerns us, because it shows a proximity to the people that we think were involved in this crime. 

And, you know, it kind of makes you wonder how much involvement he may have had. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Well, I'll tell you what.  If your information is right, Paul, that the father's telling his son, don't use cell phones, don't do e-mails, change your hard drive to cover up, stay calm for 10 days and you walk, if that's the case, I'll tell you what.  It sounds like a cover-up and a conspiracy to me. 

Paul Reynolds, as always, greatly appreciate you being with us and sharing this breaking news with SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY.  We really appreciate it. 

REYNOLDS:  All right.  Thank you. 

SCARBOROUGH:  All right. 

Now, friends, we're just getting started tonight in SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY.  When we come back, more of our breaking investigation.  We travel halfway across the world, gather details on the missing newlywed George Smith IV.  And wait until you see what we've come up with now. 

And later, my personal thoughts and a final goodbye to one of the giants in the business, Peter Jennings. 

That and much more, as SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY continues. 


SCARBOROUGH:  What happened in the minutes right after George Smith disappeared from his honeymoon cruise?  Shocking new details. 

Plus, it's like NASCAR on water.  We're going to show you this weekend's big race.  Look at that thing.  That's almost as fast as a Donzi.

But, first, here's the latest news you and your family need to know. 


SCARBOROUGH:  Tributes pouring in for Peter Jennings, ABC anchor and news legend, five decades of reporting from every corner of the globe.  It's hard to imagine news without him.  And we're going to be remembering him later here tonight. 

Welcome back to SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY, that story in a little bit. 

But, first, we have the case of missing honeymooner George Smith IV.  It is heating up.  In a minute, we're going to go back to that ship and speak to a passenger who was there the night he disappeared and get his insight in the investigation, or the lack thereof. 

Now, let's take a look at the latest news breaking in the disappearance of George Smith IV.  Now, last week, of course, we got exclusive new information on that investigation, and that they're not looking into wife Jennifer Hagel anymore, but now it's focusing on three individuals.  One is from California, two so-called Russian men from New York.  They were allegedly the last to be seen with George Smith when Smith was alive. 

Now, here is the very latest.  The attorneys for these three persons of interest say their clients are going to be cooperating with the investigation.  And today, Royal Caribbean has given SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY new details of the crime scene. 

And also, on a different note, SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY is conducting its own investigation in Turkey.  We will have answers from that investigation very soon. 

But, today, we received this statement from Royal Caribbean.  They said—quote—“There seems to be confusion about whether we secured the Smith cabin and the metal overhang where it is thought that the blood was found.  Once our security officers were alerted to the stain on the overhang and were unable to locate the Smiths in their cabin, they immediately secured both areas and posted a guard outside the Smiths' cabin.

“Turkish authorities”—that's important—“Turkish authorities immediately called by the ship arrived shortly afterwards and began a forensic investigation of both sites.  Once they had completed their investigation, they released both areas.  Only then was the metal overhang washed, at approximately 6:00 p.m.”—that's what they're saying—“6:00 p.m. that night.  The cabin, despite being cleared by authorities, remained secured and out of service for several weeks.”

Well, very interesting. 

With me now to talk about that statement is a passenger from the cruise.  He's a police chief from Oak Hill, Florida.  And he's on the phone now. 

Walter, thank you so much for being back with us in SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY.  We greatly appreciate it. 


SCARBOROUGH:  I want to talk about, for a second, that statement.  The cruise line says that they didn't clean up the overhang in the room until 6:00 p.m. that night, but that's not what a relative of yours says that was on the ship, is it? 

ZALISKO:  That's correct. 

From the information that I have received that day, they had two

security personnel on that overhang early in the morning hours.  And it

appeared that they were looking to clean up that spill.  Now, however, the

·         it is true that that spill was also there in the afternoon, because that relative also indicated that she—after coming back from the excursion, she had observed that dark red spot of blood still on that awning. 

So, there was some attempt in the initial stages to possibly clean up that spill, but I would guess that, at some point, they realized that they have a major crime scene there and that some steps should be taken to preserve it. 

SCARBOROUGH:  So, they started to clean it up, according to your relative, but then they backed off.  Let's talk about—also, your cousin is an emergency room nurse.  Talk about her response when she came on to the crime scene and what she saw and the amount of blood she saw there. 

ZALISKO:  Well, her first indication was—it was early in the morning.  What she had mentioned was that there was a large blood spill, roughly the size of her dog.  And she—she indicated that it was kind of brownish in color.  And she clearly said that, you know, after 30 years as a nurse, I know what blood spills look like.  So, there was no doubt in her mind that it was a blood spill. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Now, you're also, obviously, a law enforcement officer.  The cruise line said it did absolutely everything it could to secure this investigation, to do everything by the book.  From what you saw, do you believe they did that? 

ZALISKO:  From what I saw, I don't think, in the initial stages, that the crime scene was secured as best as it can be.  I mean, there are certain protocols that law enforcement follows when they come upon a crime scene. 

The cruise line is indicating that they had posted a guard at the door.  However, they are not indicating at what stage that they actually posted that guard.  Was it at 8:00, 9:00, or 10:00?  From what I understand, is that they didn't realize that they were missing from the boat until after roughly 9:00.  That's all the word we got on the ship.  So, there was at least a two- or three-hour gap there. 

SCARBOROUGH:  And there were also people going in and out of the room, obviously, cleaning crews and others, correct? 

ZALISKO:  Well, that's correct also. 

It's reported that you had the cleaning crew that spotted the blood in the cabin.  I'm sure that that individual didn't call the captain himself.  He must have called a supervisor of the cleaning department.  That supervisor then probably responded.  And then you had probably a number of other people who came down before the actual captain. 

And then maybe the captain ordered the room secured at that point.  So, you obviously had a great chance of contamination of any evidence in that room, with people milling about, walking in and out of that room.  I've also spoken with other people on that ship during dinner and at poolside, and they also indicated there was a lot of traffic there in the morning. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Well, you know, Walter, that's what we keep hearing about.  We hear a lot of traffic going in and out of that room during the morning.  Obviously, with any crime scene, you want to seal it off, keep people out, so it's not contaminated. 

Stay with us, Walter. 

But I also—right now, I want also to bring in our panel of experts.  We have Adriana Gardella.  She's a former private investigator and now an editor at “Justice” magazine, private investigator Vito Colucci, and maritime attorney Jack Hickey.  He spent 15 years doing legal work for the cruise lines.

Jack, I want to start with you.

You've seen the statement, obviously, from Royal Caribbean.  You heard about a passenger on the scene.  We understand Royal Caribbean sent an attorney on to investigate.  Tell us about her and tell us whether she's a professional independent investigator. 

JACK HICKEY, MARITIME ATTORNEY:  Well, thank you, Joe.  I appreciate it. 

First of all, the statement from the cruise line that you just read is very interesting, because that statement does not, does not give a timeline.  If you notice, they use words like immediately.  They use words like they're right on it.  But it does not give a timeline. 

And, in fact, you had on—SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY had on Michael Crye, the International Council of Cruise Lines' president, who said—and I have a transcript of it—he said: “Royal Caribbean's highest priority is to bring this to closure and to provide answers.”

They have not provided answers at all.  What they have done—and I'll give you a timeline and then answer, you know, in answer, really, to your question; 4:00 a.m. Clete Hyman—and, again, SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY apparently located Clete Hyman, the passenger in the cabin next door to the George Smith cabin—and I think here it's appropriate to say that SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY has done a better job at investigating this than the cruise line did, because at 4:00 a.m., that's when the passenger hears the thump in the room after arguing and male voices on the balcony. 

At 7:00 a.m., 7:00 a.m., sources say that the cleanup, or cover-up, whichever you choose to see this as, was—was started; 7:00 a.m., they started cleaning up this—the blood. 


SCARBOROUGH:  Hey, Jack, we have got to go to break right now.  But I want to ask you, really quickly, before we go to break...

HICKEY:  Yes. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Is it—it's our job to get to the bottom of this.  But for a cruise line that sends on one of their own attorneys to do an investigation, is that attorney's job to cover the cruise line's rear or is it their job to solve the crime? 

HICKEY:  Yes.  That attorney is retained by the insurance company.  And they are looking out for—to cover the cruise line's rear in the case of a civil suit.  That's all that is.  That's...


HICKEY:  ... gathered. 

SCARBOROUGH:  All right, Jack.  Jack, stay with us.  We want to get to the bottom of this.  We appreciate it. 

Our panel also is going to be helping us get to the bottom of it, a lot more when SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY returns. 

Plus, we're going to take you onto the crime scene with a former FBI investigator.  It's full-blown CSI, but it's CSI on the Mediterranean—when SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY returns. 


SCARBOROUGH:  You're looking at a shot of three men who are the focus of the investigation, a teenager from California and two Russian nationals from the New York area. 

Vito, let me bring you in right now.  You're a former private eye. 

You know, these are the three suspects that law enforcement authorities are looking at.  How do you break them down?  How do you find out what happened that night on the cruise?  Do you go for the teenage kid in California and keep after him until he spills the beans on these other two guys? 

VITO COLUCCI, PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR:  Well, I think he's the starting point, Joe.  He's 17.  He doesn't have that much experience out there. 

We need to determine if he just saw something or if he was actively involved in this, but not only him.  You may play these other two guys against each other, depending on what you can develop from these three.  You know, don't forget, this isn't like Aruba.  We have plea bargains.  We can cut a deal with one—or at least one of these guys. 

But you've got to target the 17-year-old, because he's lawyered up now.  So who knows.  His lawyer may be telling him the Paulus Van Der Sloot, you know, no body, no crime.  Who knows what's going on there.  But he's the one that I would target, as an ex-cop. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Adriana, help us out here.  I mean, these two families have obviously been going through hell since July the 5th, July the 6th, trying to figure out what happened to George Smith IV.  We heard for the first three weeks that this case was never going to be solved. 

And yet, over the past week, people have started to come forward, saying you know what?  Now that we've got three suspects labeled, we just may solve this case after all.  What's your take on it? 

ADRIANA GARDELLA, EDITOR, “JUSTICE”:  I actually feel optimistic that this case is quite solvable, now that the FBI has gotten involved and, you know, we're getting more information. 

I think we've got more evidence than we have certainly in the Holloway case.  So, I think it's going to be possibly slow and frustrating, but, ultimately, there could be a resolution. 

SCARBOROUGH:  And what's the key to it?  Is it breaking this teenager down in California? 

GARDELLA:  Yes.  I mean, at this point, the teenager is said to be the key.  So, we'll have to see what happens with that. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Vito, what are you picking up on this investigation? 

What are you hearing? 

COLUCCI:  Well, basically—you know, first of all, this is total damage control, all that—that bit that you had on before by this Royal Caribbean.  All of a sudden, they've got these things that doesn't match up with all your other breaking stuff, Joe, that you've put on over the last week.  So, it's total damage control. 

I mean, as far as—I'm in Stamford, Connecticut.  I'm close to Greenwich.  It's just a rumor mill right now in Greenwich.  So, there's not really anything credible there.  I'm so happy—the FBI, they've jumped in five or six days late on this, with a crime scene that's compromised and they've done some excellent work on this. 

Now, the downside of all that is the kid, at least that one kid—all three of them are lawyered up.  They know that the crime scene has been compromised.  They know that there's no body on this.  They know that the wife was probably out of it, drunk.  And, really, all the lawyers will tell them, hey, they heard some screams.  We don't know how much these other people have seen, if they actually seen these guys enter the room.  They know they brought him back to the room. 

So, it's going to be a key.  You've got to work on these guys.  If I'm a still a detective on a police department, I'm grilling these guys.  I'm seeing if they're willing to take a polygraph.  If they're not, you're going to look at them a little bit funny, Joe. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Boy, I'll tell you what.  This does—there are so many similarities between this and Aruba.  You've got three suspects, three guys, three young guys.  They're all—they're all lawyered up. 

Jack Hickey, I want to ask you about the way this whole thing has gone down.  I've been very critical of the Aruban investigation, very critical of—of the investigation that also took place on this cruise line.  But let me ask you.  You worked for cruise lines for 15 years.  Is this their M.O.?  I mean, just, again, they bring their insurance lawyer on, again, to try to clean it up, to do risk assessment, to see if they're going to be sued.  Is that the way it's usually done? 

HICKEY:  Well, I think it is. 

I mean, here you've got to—actions speak louder than words.  Their words are, in their statements, that their priorities are to get to the bottom of this.  But I think what we're seeing here is that they sent an insurance company lawyer from Miami—I'm in Miami, and this is where the cruise lines is based.  They sent a lawyer from Miami who is known to represent the insurance companies of the cruise lines. 

That's who they send over there, you know, not a professional, not professional investigators.  They send over there, like five, six days after July 5, the time when he was missing, to interview people in a—in a conference room.  And this is not somebody trained, Joe, to collect evidence, to take blood samples and things like that.  Lawyers, they are not really trained to do that. 

SCARBOROUGH:  What—what—what is he trained to do?  What—what is he trained to do? 


GARDELLA:  She's trained to collect statements that are going to reflect well on the cruise lines and poorly on any potential case against the cruise lines. 

And, you know, and the cruise line said, well, gee, she turned over her statements to the FBI.  Well, you know, so what?  These are all, of course, going to be slanted statements.  That's not somebody—that's not a professional investigator or a neutral investigator. 

And the other thing is, you know, as far as investigation, nobody's talking about the video from the casino.  What about that, and the cruise line's responsibility, if they are plying these folks and encouraging these folks to drink and gamble, and this guy may have won thousands of dollars?  You know, they've got videos in the casinos to keep track of their money.  I would think that they could use the videos maybe to keep track of George Smith and the folks who escorted him back to his room. 


SCARBOROUGH:  And other people there. 

Adriana, final question to you.  What does George Smith's family need to do to get justice? 

GARDELLA:  I think they need to continue doing what they're doing, which has been cooperating with the FBI.  I think we've confused cooperating with the FBI and talking to the media.  And, you know, that—if that's not something they're comfortable with, there's really no reason for them to do that, as long as they are cooperating with the law enforcement authorities. 

SCARBOROUGH:  You're exactly right.  Thanks a lot.  Greatly appreciate it, Adriana.

Also, Jack Hickey, appreciate it.

HICKEY:  Thank you, Joe. 

SCARBOROUGH:  And Walt Zalisko, greatly appreciate it. 

Vito, if you will, stick around, because, when we come back, we go inside the investigation on the crime scene.  Is it a floating crime scene?  We're going to be asking a veteran FBI profiler when SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY returns. 


SCARBOROUGH:  Is this the blood of George Smith, and, if it is, does it represent the definition of a crime scene? 

With me now to talk about it is Candice DeLong.  Of course, she's a former FBI agent and the author of “Special Agent.”

Candice, a controversial crime scene.  We have got the bloody photo.  And we have got these three young suspects.  How do you connect all the dots to break this case, so the Smiths know what happened to their son? 

CANDICE DELONG, FORMER FBI PROFILER:  Well, one of the first things I would want to do is go back to what apparently had been the crime scene.  It should still be considered a crime scene.  Just because a crime scene is cleaned up of blood doesn't mean all traces of blood are gone.  There are methods that can be employed to detect blood. 

You have probably heard of something called Luminol.  And it glows in the dark after it's applied to a surface.  It can find blood that has been removed years previous.  Another thing, because we really don't know actually if George was murdered.  I would go for that large stain.  I would go into the cabin and employ these. 

Also, the three suspects.  I would want to go into the staterooms that they were in.  And, also, you want to—if you found traces of George's blood in those rooms, that would be kind of a case closed, wouldn't it?  Additionally, I would want to get search warrants to get the clothes and the items that those three suspects had with them when they were on the ship, just for starters. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Candice, look at that.  There's a picture, of course, that you have seen of the supposed crime scene, and there's—there's that blood that has built up in the center of that, a pool of blood.  Doesn't that suggest that he may have been stabbed or somebody may have been stabbed before they took that fall? 

DELONG:  It appears to me that it is an outline, a gross outline, of what could be a human form, and that is—if that was George, and he was lying face down, it appears that, if there was a wound to the heart, that that large pool of blood in that area might have been where he bled out.  That also tells me he was alive when he hit that surface.  I don't see drag marks.

I would like to know how the body got, or George, if he was still alive at that point, got from that area into what I think presumably would be the ocean.  How did that happen? 


SCARBOROUGH:  Yes.  No, I was just going to say, that is a great question, Vito—or Candice.

Vito, what about it?  Lack of drag marks, what does that mean? 


You know, I was on another show with Dr. Henry Lee, and he was trying to explain it to me, too, saying that it's not as much blood as it appears to us.  But, you know, that's a question that's hard for me to answer.  It's hard.  I mean, we can see the outline, like Candice says, and everything else.  But is he dragged?  I think what Dr. Lee said, that it looked like he was dragged, but the whole pool of blood, just in that one area.  So, it's hard to say.  It's hard to say. 


SCARBOROUGH:  But do either of you have any doubts that a crime was committed here? 

COLUCCI:  No, no doubt at all. 

DELONG:  No doubt at all. 


DELONG:  No doubt at all. 

SCARBOROUGH:  All right, Candice, thank...



DELONG:  At least two people, at least two people, strong people, picked up that body to throw it overboard. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Yes.  All right. 

Candice DeLong, as always, thank you. 

And, also, Vito Colucci, greatly appreciate you being in SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY again tonight. 

Now, coming up next, remembering Peter Jennings in just a minute.


SCARBOROUGH:  Coming back, America says goodbye to an old friend.  Our tribute to Peter Jennings next. 


SCARBOROUGH:  You know, for many Americans, Peter Jennings was always part of the evening news landscape, covering every major news event for five decades. 

His accomplishments are immeasurable, establishing the first network bureau in Beirut, covering Reagan, the fall of the Soviet Union, the collapse of the Berlin Wall, the 2000 election challenge, and, of course, the 2001 terror attacks. 

Now, through it all, Jennings kept his head.  And, by doing that, he earned Americans' trust.  Today, we have heard a lot about Peter's legacy as a journalist, as a father, as a husband, and finally as a U.S. citizen.  Jennings was moved to take his citizenship after the attacks of September 11. 

Jennings lost his battle with lung cancer yesterday.  He died as he lived, though, with dignity, and with grace. 

That's all the time we have for tonight's show. 

Greatly appreciate you being with us. 

“THE SITUATION WITH TUCKER CARLSON” starts right now, Tucker batting cleanup.  And I'm excited. 

Tucker, we are all excited.  Great to have you here. 

TUCKER CARLSON, HOST, “THE SITUATION”:  The great Joe Scarborough, thank you very much. 



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