KRISTEN WELKER:
This Sunday, striking back. Israel gears up for a major military operation, ordering more than a million in Gaza to evacuate and vows to destroy Hamas as the war intensifies.
PRIME MINISTER BENJAMIN NETANYAHU:
We must stand tall, proud and united against evil.
KRISTEN WELKER:
President Biden promises to stand by Israel while working to prevent the war from spreading wider.
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
This was an act of sheer evil. To any country, any organization, anyone thinking of taking advantage of this situation, I have one word: don’t.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And fears grow for the American citizens who are presumed to be among the dozens of hostages being held inside Gaza.
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
I have not given up hope of bringing these folks home.
KRISTEN WELKER:
How will the U.S. navigate this unfolding crisis? I'll talk to National Security Advisor Jake Sullivan and Republican Senator Lindsey Graham of South Carolina. Plus, house of cards. Republicans struggle to find a new speaker sending the House into more chaos.
REP. STEVE SCALISE:
Our conference still has to come together and is not there.
REP. HAKEEM JEFFRIES: The House Republican civil war continues to rage on.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Will Democrats step in to help Republicans solve their dysfunction? I’ll ask the House Democratic Leader Hakeem Jeffries. Joining me for insight and analysis are NBC News Senior Washington Correspondent Hallie Jackson, Toluse Olorunnipa, White House bureau chief for The Washington Post, NBC News Chief Washington Correspondent Andrea Mitchell and Ambassador Dennis Ross, a former Middle East peace negotiator. Welcome to Sunday. It’s Meet the Press.
ANNOUNCER:
From NBC News in Washington, the longest-running show in television history, this is Meet the Press with Kristen Welker.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Good Sunday morning. The eyes of the world are on Gaza today as Israel prepares to broaden its assault on Hamas. This, as more than a million Palestinians in northern Gaza are trying to head south in car, by foot, and in carts pulled by donkeys after Israel warned almost half of the territory's population to leave their homes. The United Nations has urged Israel to withdraw its evacuation order, with one official calling it a death sentence for Gazans forced to leave hospitals. The U.S. has been trying to broker a deal to reopen Egypt's Rafah Crossing with Gaza to allow Americans and other foreigners to leave. Palestinian officials say more than 2,300 people have been killed in Gaza. In Israel, more than 1,400 have been killed. The dead include 29 Americans. Fifteen Americans remain unaccounted for, feared to be among the more than 120 hostages Hamas is holding in Gaza. On Friday, President Biden met virtually for more than an hour with their families and he spoke about that call last night.
[START TAPE]
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
They've endured an agony of not knowing what's happening. Not the same thing, but I can tell you what it's like. It's one thing to lose someone that you know you're going to lose and be there with them and hold their hands, like I was able to do with my son. It's a very other thing to get a phone call I got years ago saying, "There's been an accident. Your wife and daughter are dead. I'm not sure your boys are going to make it." The uncertainty of those two or three hours, trying to get back to find out. It's the worst feeling in the world. It's gut-wrenching.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
The president has called the Hamas attack unadulterated evil and brutality. But U.S. officials, including Secretary of State Blinken, who is traveling in the region, have also called on Israel for restraint.
[START TAPE]
SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:
Israel has the right, indeed it has the obligation, to defend its people and to try to ensure that Hamas can never repeat what it's done. We continue to discuss with Israel the importance of taking every possible precaution to avoid harming civilians.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
My colleague Chief Foreign Correspondent Richard Engel is on the Israel/Gaza border. Richard, thank you so much for joining us. The world is bracing for this potential ground offensive by the Israelis into Gaza, but it hasn't happened yet.
RICHARD ENGEL:
So, I can tell you what we're hearing and what we're seeing here near the Gaza border. We are inside Israel, but we can see the black smoke in the distance there, that is the Gaza Strip. That is Gaza City. And for the last several hours, we've been hearing Israeli air strikes that are continuing to go into Gaza. We've been hearing some small arms fire. There is an Israeli drone up above right now. But what we're not seeing is any final preparations. We're not seeing Israeli tanks pushing right to the border, getting ready to cross into the Gaza Strip. It could be a factor of weather. It's very windy today. Or it could be that the Israelis still have final preparations to do. More commando raids. They've already done one commando raid to gather information about hostages. So we are waiting for this operation. It's always been described as imminent, but we don't exactly know when it's going to take place. The Israelis are still telling Palestinians they are in Gaza City, and many are still in Gaza City. About 35,000 people are staying in the Shifa Hospital, sheltering in – in just that one hospital. The Israelis are telling people, "Leave. Don't worry about the deadlines. Just take your things, take your families, and head south." But many Palestinians say they don't want to head south because they believe the Israelis have been shelling them as they try to escape Gaza City and move to safer areas in southern Gaza.
And a big development today, there was an incident on Friday in which 70 people were killed and according to Palestinian officials, they were killed when there was an Israeli air strike on a convoy fleeing Gaza City. And the development today was, Israel came out and said, in no uncertain terms,that it did not strike that convoy, and accused Hamas of putting road-side bombs under the main roads and killing civilians as they are trying to leave Gaza City and head into the south. So, Israel says that Hamas is trying to keep civilians up in the north in order to use them as human shields.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Richard Engel, reporting from the ground there. We really appreciate your report. And of course it comes as there are also real concerns that this could become a wider conflict. Richard Engel, thank you so much.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Joining me now is National Security Advisor Jake Sullivan. Jake, welcome back to Meet the Press.
JAKE SULLIVAN:
Thanks for having me.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Thank you for being here on a busy day. So, Jake, let's just dive right in. Overnight, the State Department confirmed the death of 29 U.S. citizens in this conflict. Can the U.S. say whether any U.S. citizens have been killed inside Gaza?
JAKE SULLIVAN:
We can't confirm that at – at this time, Kristen. But we are working actively to determine the fate of Americans in Gaza, both those being held hostage, and we are also working actively to try to help American citizens who want to leave Gaza, have safe passage out through the border crossing with Egypt. It has been difficult to execute that operation to – to – to facilitate their passage out. We are continuing to work on that, and President Biden has put a team on it around the clock because it's a high priority for us to be able to get American citizens out of Gaza. It is also his highest priority to secure the safe return of those Americans being held hostage by the brutal and vicious terrorist group Hamas. And we are working multiple angles to try to make that happen, but I'm cautious about what I can say publicly on it.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Jake, I want to ask you about both. Let's talk about the efforts to get citizens out. The U.N. says evacuating civilians to the south is, quote, "impossible and potentially calamitous." Realistically, Jake, where are people supposed to go? Are they not trapped inside Gaza at this point?
JAKE SULLIVAN:
The critical thing from our perspective is that there be safe places for civilians to go that will not be subject to military bombardment, where they can be safe physically and where they can have access to the essentials: to food, water, medicine, shelter. The many, many Palestinians who have had nothing to do with the brutal terrorist organization Hamas, the vast majority of the population of Gaza, they deserve dignity. They deserve safety and security. And the United States is working with the United Nations, with Israel, with Egypt, with Jordan, and with other organizations to try to ensure that.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And just to be very clear, has anyone, U.S. citizen or otherwise, been able to leave Gaza?
JAKE SULLIVAN:
So far, we have not been able to get American citizens through the border crossing, and I'm not aware of anyone else being able to get out at this time, though I cannot fully confirm that because it's a dynamic situation. Like I said, we're trying to create the circumstances where American citizens who are in Gaza and are looking to leave, to get into Egypt and ultimately to the United States or elsewhere, that they are able to do so. We're working on that as we speak.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Jake, did the U.S. ask Israel to delay its ground offensive so that you and Egypt can try to secure the safe passage of civilians?
JAKE SULLIVAN:
First, I'm not going to get into our private conversations with the Israelis, but we are not interfering in their military planning or trying to give them instructions or requests specific to their military planning. What we are doing is saying privately what we've said publicly, which is that all military operations should be conducted consistent with the law of war, that civilians should be protected, that civilians should have a real opportunity to get to safety, and that civilians, again, who have nothing to do with Hamas – because Hamas is a brutal, vicious, savage terrorist group; it does not represent or reflect the will of the Palestinian people – that civilians get access to food, water, medicine, and shelter. And we are working hard on that. It is a key priority for our president.
KRISTEN WELKER:
I know you don't want to get into private conversations, but I don't hear a denial. I mean, can you deny that you asked Israel to hold off on its ground offensive?
JAKE SULLIVAN:
Well, Kristen, as I just said, we are not making requests or demands of Israel with respect to its military operations. We are simply stating our basic principles, the principles upon which this country is based and all democracies, including Israel, are based. It's what makes us different from the terrorists –
KRISTEN WELKER:
And –
JAKE SULLIVAN:
– that, in fact, we respect civilian life. But I will tell you, we did not say to them, you know, “You've got to do this or that," with respect to the specific of that – specific operational planning for the military operation –
KRISTEN WELKER:
NBC is reporting that U.S. officials have been privately urging restraint to the Israeli government, and yet the State Department – a State Department email advised against officials using language like "deescalation" and "restoring calm." So, which is it, Jake? Can you help clarify? What is the message of the U.S. government to Israel?
JAKE SULLIVAN:
The message of the U.S. government has actually been straightforward from the first time the president spoke to this issue. Israel has a right and, indeed, a duty to defend itself against vicious, savage, barbaric terrorism. Israel also, as a fellow democracy, has to respect the laws of war, and all civilians should be protected and should have access to the basic necessities. And that has been the U.S. position. That is what we will continue to discuss with our Israeli counterparts, with regional counterparts, and with the United Nations. And we will do all that we can to ensure the safety of civilians in Gaza.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Jake, is there a red line for the U.S. when it comes to Israel's actions? For example, is the use of phosphorous bombs off the table for the U.S.?
JAKE SULLIVAN:
I have seen the reports of that. The IDF has actually come out and said they were not using phosphorus bombs. I'm not going to sit here, Kristen, and draw red lines. I was asked this same question at the White House podium a few days ago, and I said, "You know, it's not my job in public to draw red lines. It's my job and the job of the U.S. government to have detailed, extensive conversations with our Israeli counterparts and to continue to stand behind the basic principles of the laws of war and the rule of law."
KRISTEN WELKER:
Former Obama National Security Advisor Ben Rhodes said this week, quote, "The decisions being made now are going to impact millions of lives, reverberate for generations, and risk all kinds of escalation. The U.S. should have learned from 9/11 the profound cost of being guided by anger and fear. I hope that is what we are telling the Israeli government." Is that what we're telling the Israeli government, Jake? And big picture, who will govern Gaza if Israel succeeds in defeating Hamas?
JAKE SULLIVAN:
Well, again, Kristen, as frustrating as it may be, I – I have to be careful about revealing the sensitive, private conversations that we're having with our Israeli counterparts. Of course they're angry. I'm angry. We should all be angry about this outrage of a terrorist attack that has taken place and claimed the lives of 1,300 people. As President Biden said last night, the worst massacre of Jews since the Holocaust. But of course, at the same time, any effort to strike a brutal and – or excuse me, to strike a blow against Hamas should be done consistent with clear objectives and should also be done in a way that protects innocent civilians, so –
KRISTEN WELKER:
But who will govern Gaza?
JAKE SULLIVAN:
– we have been clear about –
KRISTEN WELKER:
Jake, do you know? Has Israel said what their plan is? Who will govern Gaza?
JAKE SULLIVAN:
I can't sit here today and tell you what the exact outcome of this military operation will be, either militarily or politically. What I can tell you is that the United States, sitting with our Israeli counterparts, are talking through all of the dimensions, including questions related to governance, as we go forward. And it is simply premature, sitting here today, to talk about what the future holds in that regard.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Do they have an exit strategy, Jake?
JAKE SULLIVAN:
Right now, the issue is not exit strategy. Right now, they are still facing rocket attacks, and they are still facing the very serious threat that Hamas can continue to kill Israeli civilians: women, children, the elderly. And so, right now, the Israeli focus is on neutralizing that threat, destroying that threat so that Israel can live in security and dignity. And the United States is going to continue to support them in that effort even as we discuss with them all of the larger strategic questions to ensure that, over the medium term and the long term, the state of Israel is secure, the state of Israel is sustained.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Jake, as you know, there's been a lot of discussion about how this attack could have been missed. I want to play you some remarks that you made just eight days before the attack and get your reaction on the other side.
[START TAPE]
JAKE SULLIVAN:
The Middle East region is quieter today than it has been in two decades. Now, challenges remain: Iran's nuclear weapons program, the tensions between Israelis and Palestinians. But the amount of time that I have to spend on crisis and conflict in the Middle East today compared to any of my predecessors going back to 9/11 is significantly reduced.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
Jake, why was your assessment there so far off the mark?
JAKE SULLIVAN:
Well, first, Kristen, I made those comments in the context of developments in the wider Middle East region over the last few years, after two decades that involved a civil war in Yemen and a massive humanitarian catastrophe, a civil war in Syria and a massive refugee crisis, an invasion and insurgency in Iraq, a NATO military operation in Libya, Iranian-backed attacks on both Saudi and the UAE, as well as many other steps, including the rise of a terrorist caliphate that actually occupied a huge amount of territory. The sentence before what you just played, I said, in fact, that this was for now and that it could all change. And the two threats that I identified that were the most acute on my mind at the time were tensions between Israelis and Palestinians, as I mentioned, and the threat from Iran. And so, yes, it is true that those two threats remained a real challenge to the long-term stability of the Middle East region, and we've just seen this absolutely tragic attack. But at no point did the Biden administration take its eye off the ball of the threats to Israel. In fact, President Biden saw Prime Minister Netanyahu just weeks before this attack to discuss the security challenges facing the state of Israel, and we've continued to support them to as significant or greater an extent than any previous administration.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Jake, very quickly before I let you go, obviously there had been talks about a deal for normalized relations between Saudi Arabia and Israel prior to this horrific attack. We know that Secretary Blinken met with the Saudi Crown Prince. What is the status of that deal? Are talks off for now?
JAKE SULLIVAN:
Well, actually, Secretary Blinken was just in Saudi Arabia, just had the opportunity to see the crown prince and other senior officials in that government as part of a region-wide tour where he's been talking to the leaders of all or many of the major Middle Eastern countries.
For the moment, the focus has to be on helping Israel defend itself against the brutal terrorism of Hamas. And we will have opportunities as we go forward to look at diplomatic initiatives like normalization that help lead to a long-term more stable, more integrated region.
KRISTEN WELKER:
I hear you saying they're on pause for now. The talks are not continuing right now?
JAKE SULLIVAN:
There's not some kind of formal pause. We're not, you know, pressing a button. I would just say that the main effort and emphasis from a diplomatic perspective of the United States today is on the immediate situation. But the long-term goal of a more peaceful, more integrated Middle East region, including through normalization, remains very much a focus of U.S. foreign policy.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right, National Security Advisor Jake Sullivan, thank you very much.
JAKE SULLIVAN:
Thanks for having me.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And when we come back, Republican Senator Lindsey Graham joins me next.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And welcome back. Joining me now is Republican Senator Lindsey Graham of South Carolina. Senator, welcome back to Meet the Press.
SENATOR LINDSEY GRAHAM:
Thank you. Thank you.
KRISTEN WELKER:
So you've just gotten off of the phone with Israeli and Saudi officials. You have new information. What can you tell us?
SENATOR LINDSEY GRAHAM:
Yeah. I will be going to Saudi Arabia and Israel in the coming days with a group of senators. The drive to peace and normalization between Saudi Arabia and Israel continues. There's a desire by both parties to move forward in this effort to normalize relationships. Israel is talking about humanitarian aid. They're going to turn the water on in the South. They're urging the Egyptians to let people from Gaza go into the Sinai. I just got a message from Cindy McCain, the head of the World Food Program. They're in dire straits.So here's my message to our friends in Egypt: open up. Allow Gaza residents to go into the Sinai. To the international community, we have to help. To our friends in Israel, you need the time and space to destroy Hamas. All Palestinians are not the same. If Hamas is destroyed, Israel is safer, and the pathway to peace between the Palestinians and the world gets wider. So I start this morning somewhat optimistic that Iran's goal to destroy the peace process between Israel and Saudi Arabia will fail.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And you don't think the peace process at this point is dead, as we sit here and speak?
SENATOR LINDSEY GRAHAM:
No, I've never felt better about the drive to peace by Saudi, Israel, and the United States shall continue. We need to change the world as it is. Nothing would change the world for the better more than Saudi Arabia, Israel, and the United States to form agreements to end the Arab/Israeli conflict as we know it.
KRISTEN WELKER:
I do want to ask you about the crisis on the ground in Gaza.
SENATOR LINDSEY GRAHAM:
Yeah.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And you have said that Israel should go into Gaza and, quote, "level the place."
SENATOR LINDSEY GRAHAM:
If necessary.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Are you calling for the full-scale destruction of Gaza –
SENATOR LINDSEY GRAHAM:
No –
KRISTEN WELKER:
– despite what could be untold civilian deaths?
SENATOR LINDSEY GRAHAM:
No. I'm calling for the destruction of Hamas. Israel is trying to find a safe place for Gaza residents. Hamas is trying to stop them from leaving. Israel is trying to encourage them to leave. Our friends in Egypt, you have it in your power to give Gaza residents a safe place. This will be a World-War-Two-type operation, where you go in and destroy the regime, Hamas, and over time, replace it with something else, like we did Germany and Japan. But the Israelis do not want to kill innocent people. They're going to turn the water on. Every death going forward I blame on Hamas, not Israel.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, and of course 40% of Gaza's population is under the age of 15. Are you confident though, right now the people of Gaza are trapped, are you confident? And are you essentially sending the message to Israel to let them get out before they begin their ground invasion?
SENATOR LINDSEY GRAHAM:
Israel doesn't need me to tell them to let them out; they want them out. Israel doesn’t–you know, the tit-for-tat exchange, the old way of doing business died with the killing and slaughter of Israeli babies by Hamas. We're not going to do the old game anymore. The goal is to destroy Hamas. It's a terrorist organization. That would liberate the Palestinian people who live in Gaza, and it would make it safer for Israel. We're going to give Israel the time and the space. Egypt, if you're listening to this program, open up your borders. The world will help you deal with these people in the Sinai, and they will go back home. But when they go back home, Hamas will be destroyed.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And I have to ask you the same question I asked Jake Sullivan. What happens the day after, if Israel is successful in defeating Hamas in Gaza? Who governs Gaza, Senator?
SENATOR LINDSEY GRAHAM:
Okay, here's what I think. That's a really good question. All Palestinians are not the same. They're all not terrorists. The P.A. is still in existence in the West Bank. The deal between Israel and Saudi Arabia has a Palestinian component. For this deal to really go into effect, the Saudis are willing to help the Palestinians. But the P.A. needs to change. We got old, corrupt leaders. They need to be replaced with younger leaders who are less corrupt. So I have no animosity toward the Palestinian people. I want to destroy Hamas. I want to go to the heart of the problem.
KRISTEN WELKER:
So are you saying the Palestinian Authority should control Gaza after this incursion?
SENATOR LINDSEY GRAHAM:
I am saying Hamas needs to be destroyed. Israel needs to have a safe zone in Gaza. The Gaza people need to be liberated from Hamas. But how do you get there from here, is your question.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Let me ask you about Iran, Senator. The broader region, of course. You said this week that the only way to keep the war from escalating is to hold Iran accountable.
SENATOR LINDSEY GRAHAM:
Yes.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Part of what you're talking about now, and that it might mean bombing their oil refineries. Have you had any discussions with the Biden administration about this?
SENATOR LINDSEY GRAHAM:
A bit. I want to applaud President Biden for his strong statement in support of Israel. I just got off the phone with the Israelis. Their goal is to destroy Hamas in the South and try to save as many innocent Palestinians as possible, to prevent escalation North from Hezbollah. Here's my message: If Hezbollah, which is a proxy of Iran, launches a massive attack on Israel, I would consider that a threat to the state of Israel, existential in nature. I'll introduce a resolution in the United States Senate to allow military action by the United States, in conjunction with Israel, to knock Iran out of the oil business. Iran, if you escalate this war, we're coming for you.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Are you effectively poised to declare war on Iran? That's very strong language.
SENATOR LINDSEY GRAHAM:
I am poised to use military force to destroy the source of funding for Hamas and Hezbollah. The idea that Iran read about this operation in the paper or on television is laughable. 93% of Hezbollah and Hamas's money comes from Iran. They're the source of the problem. They're the great evil. So, if Hezbollah escalates against Israel, it will be because Iran told them to. Then Iran, you're in the crosshairs of the United States and Israel.
KRISTEN WELKER:
I have to ask you about some of these recent comments by the GOP front-runner, someone you support, Former President Trump. He praised Hezbollah as, quote, "very smart." Israel's communication minister called that language shameful. Do you agree? Is that shameful language, Senator?
SENATOR LINDSEY GRAHAM:
Yeah, that was a huge mistake. If I were President Trump, I'd talk about being the strongest President for Israel in modern times. He issued a statement two days ago, "I stand with Bibi, I stand with Israel." Yeah, it was a mistake. He's on the right track. But you know, Biden administration's border policies are failing, and their policies against Iran are failing.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Senator, as you know, he also criticized Prime Minister Netanyahu, as well. And a lot of people saw that as a personal attack, because Netanyahu has recognized President Biden as a duly elected president. Do you think that's appropriate at this moment?
SENATOR LINDSEY GRAHAM:
No. I thought it was not helpful. And President Trump has a lot to – he recognized Israel, Jerusalem as the capital, he recognized the Golan Heights as part of Israel. He put in place the Abraham Accords. That's what I would – no, I wouldn't criticize Bibi. He put out a statement a couple of days ago, "I stand with Bibi." The House – you know, I know we got a lot to talk about. If I were in the House, I'd vote for Jim Jordan tomorrow. He's a good man. But we need to get a speaker.
KRISTEN WELKER:
I want to ask you about the House. But are those comments disqualifying, for the former president to be attacking America's closest ally in the Middle East, when they have just undergone this attack – the largest attack against Jews since the Holocaust, Senator?
SENATOR LINDSEY GRAHAM:
I haven't beat on Biden a whole lot. It's his policies toward appeasing Iran, withdrawing from Afghanistan, and looking weak in the eyes of Russia, are they disqualifying? We'll have an election. President Trump was a strong president. They were afraid of him. Iran was afraid of him, and Russia was afraid of him. We've lost deterrents. We need to regain it. I'm not here talking about the '24 election. I'm talking about destroying Hamas in a way that will make Israel safer and the Palestinian people freer.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And as you know, right now, as you just mentioned, the House of Representatives, unable to take any action to help Israel because they are in this state of paralysis. You say you would support Jim Jordan. Here's what Congressman Michael McCaul said, the Republican Chair of the House Foreign Affairs Committee. He called this situation “dangerous.” Do you worry it makes the United States vulnerable on the world stage, that we don't have a Speaker of the House, Senator?
SENATOR LINDSEY GRAHAM:
It could be. Now, we had a meeting two days ago with senators, ranking member and chairman with the White House. Here's what's coming out of the Senate very soon: a big package for Ukraine. To my House colleagues: if you strip out Ukrainian aid, Russia will keep going. There will eventually be a war between NATO and Russia, and it will be a green light to China to invade Taiwan. So to the Republicans in the House: if you pull the plug on Ukraine, you're going to create more war in Europe. China will go after Taiwan. To the Biden administration, you don't need Lindsey Graham just saying we're coming after Iran; you need to say it.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Do you hold Former President Trump responsible for that? As you know, he's the one saying that Ukraine aid should be conditional. He's leading that charge in the House of Representatives.
SENATOR LINDSEY GRAHAM:
I think it should be transparent. You know, President Trump–
KRISTEN WELKER:
But do you hold him responsible for that?
SENATOR LINDSEY GRAHAM:
No. Every member of Congress will vote. So here's what will happen, we get an aid package to the House, the Ukrainian component will pass. Defeating Russia is in our national security interests. We haven't lost one soldier in Iran. We spent less than 5% of our military budget.
They have destroyed 50% of the Russian combat capability, the Ukrainians. Keeping Ukraine in the fight deters war between China and Taiwan. And we'll stop Putin. He must be defeated before we get in a war in NATO. To the Biden administration: I will work with you to bring peace between Saudi and Israel. But you're going to have to up your game when it comes to Iran, and do it now.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right. Senator Lindsey Graham, we'll leave it there.
SENATOR LINDSEY GRAHAM:
Thank you.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Thank you so much. Good to see you. We appreciate it.
SENATOR LINDSEY GRAHAM:
See you.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And when we come back, the House of Representatives, as we just discussed, is still
without a leader, and all legislative action is frozen on the Hill. Will the Democrats work with Republicans to end the dysfunction? House Democratic leader, Hakeem Jeffries, joins me next.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. The House has been without a speaker for nearly 13 days. On Friday, House Republicans nominated Ohio Congressman Jim Jordan, the hard right chairman of the judiciary committee, to be their next speaker but quickly postponed a floor vote as it became clear more than 50 Republican members are not prepared to support Jordan, who can only afford to lose four Republican votes. House Democrats made it clear they are unenthusiastic about bailing out the Republican majority.
[START TAPE]
REP. HAKEEM JEFFRIES:
We want to find a bipartisan path to reopening the House of Representatives so we can solve problems for the American people and stand with our friends like Israel, and Ukraine, and others throughout the free world. But the House Republican civil war continues to rage on.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
Joining me now is the House Democratic leader, Congressman Hakeem Jeffries of New York. Leader Jeffries, welcome back to Meet the Press.
REP. HAKEEM JEFFRIES:
Good morning.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, let's start right there. We heard you talking about a bipartisan solution to resolving this stalemate in the House. Are you actually having conversations behind the scenes with your Republican counterparts about trying to create a bipartisan solution, a governing coalition?
REP. HAKEEM JEFFRIES:
There are informal conversations that have been underway. When we get back to Washington tomorrow, it's important to begin to formalize those discussions. From the very beginning of this Congress, House Democrats have made clear that we want to continue to put people over politics and to fight for things like lower cost, better paying jobs, safer communities, and to build an economy that works from the middle out and the bottom up.On the other hand, House Republicans have been focused on fighting each other. It's time to end the Republican civil war so we can get back to doing the business of the American people. And we as House Democrats are committed to finding that bipartisan path forward in a meaningful way.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Leader Jeffries, this has been going on for 11 days. Why haven't formal conversations started yet?
REP. HAKEEM JEFFRIES:
At this point, that is on my House Republican colleagues. We have made clear, publicly and privately, that we are ready, willing, and able to enter into a bipartisan governing coalition that puts the American people first and solves problems for hardworking American taxpayers.My Republican colleagues have a simple choice.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yeah.
REP. HAKEEM JEFFRIES:
They can either double or triple down on the chaos, dysfunction, and extremism. Or, let's have a real conversation about changing the rules of the House so it can work in the best interests of the American people.
KRISTEN WELKER:
What are your demands, Leader Jeffries? You talk about changing the rules in the House. Can you tick through a couple of your demands that you're going to ask for?
REP. HAKEEM JEFFRIES:
Well, these aren't demands. We are ready to be reasonable in trying to find the common ground necessary –
KRISTEN WELKER:
What are they?
REP. HAKEEM JEFFRIES:
– to ensure that.
KRISTEN WELKER:
What is it that you want?
REP. HAKEEM JEFFRIES:
We want to ensure that votes are taken on bills that have substantial Democratic support and substantial Republican support so that the extremists aren't able to dictate the agenda. The current rules of the House have facilitated a handful of Republicans being able to determine what gets voted on in the House of Representatives and that undermines the interests of the American people. We can change the rules to facilitate bipartisanship and that should be the starting point of our conversation.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And, Leader Jeffries, I hear you saying that this is a Republican issue. And, of course, the discord is there. But as the Democratic leader of the House, don't you also bear a responsibility to try to bring this stalemate to an end?
REP. HAKEEM JEFFRIES:
We want to reopen the House and get to a place where we can tackle the challenges that are in front of us domestically as well as make sure that we can stand with our close friend, Israel, during her time of need in terms of ensuring Israel's ability to decisively defeat Hamas, a brutal terrorist organization. We need to be able to stand with the Ukrainian people in its effort to defeat Vladimir Putin and Russian aggression.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yeah.
REP. HAKEEM JEFFRIES:
We need to be able to make sure that we can keep the government open to meet the needs of the American people. And so, we are ready, willing, and able to have those conversations.
KRISTEN WELKER:
You'd effectively need about five Democrats to get on board and support a Republican speaker to have a governing coalition. Have you identified a candidate who you could potentially get behind? And would you allow your members to vote for a Republican speaker?
REP. HAKEEM JEFFRIES:
We have not identified any candidate on the other side of the aisle because our focus is not on the individual. It's on the institution of Congress and the best interests of the American people, which is why what we suggested is that we reevaluate the rules that are currently in place to facilitate bipartisan cooperation and to eliminate division.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And, Leader Jeffries, how worried should people be about a potential government shutdown? It's now less than 40 days away.
REP. HAKEEM JEFFRIES:
We entered into an agreement to avoid a catastrophic default on our debt in May, led by President Biden, who's doing a tremendous job. More than 300 members of Congress supported that agreement, which included top-line spending numbers, so that we would avert a government shutdown and could lean in to providing for the health, the safety, and the economic well-being of the American people.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Leader Jeffries, would you intervene –
REP. HAKEEM JEFFRIES:
We can avoid a government shutdown –
KRISTEN WELKER:
– what I'm asking, though, is would you intervene to prevent a shutdown because, as you know, military members are not going to get paid if the government shuts down. Is that the point where Democrats will intervene?
REP. HAKEEM JEFFRIES:
House Democrats have already intervened to prevent a government shutdown. House Democrats provided the majority of the votes –
KRISTEN WELKER:
But in this instance? But in this instance?
REP. HAKEEM JEFFRIES:
–on September 30th to avoid a government shutdown. We – we – we certainly – we are not the party of government shutdowns. We are the party that puts people over politics. And so, of course we are prepared to enter into an agreement that keeps the government functioning and that meets the needs of the American people. What I'm saying is that we entered into an agreement already that is a matter of law. And the problem is House Republicans breached that agreement less than a week after it was entered into at the end of May. If we get back to that agreement, we have a clear path forward to make sure that the government stays open.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right. Leader Jeffries, thank you so much. Really appreciate it. We will stay tuned. Appreciate your joining us.
REP. HAKEEM JEFFRIES:
Thank you.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And when we come back, can the U.S. stop the Israel-Hamas war from spreading into a wider conflict? The panel is next.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back, the panel is here. NBC News Chief Washington Correspondent and Foreign Affairs Correspondent Andrea Mitchell. NBC News Senior Washington Correspondent Hallie Jackson. Ambassador Dennis Ross, former special envoy to the Middle East, and an NBC News foreign affairs analyst. And Toluse Olurunnipa, White House bureau chief for the Washington Post. Thank you all for being here. Andrea, I want to start with you. Throughout this broadcast, we have been talking to Jake Sullivan, Senator Graham about the prospects of this becoming a wider war. And I know you have a lot of reporting about that. Of course, the secretary of state in the region in Cairo today, dealing with that very issue. What's at stake here?
ANDREA MITCHELL:
Well, everything is at stake. And in fact, the Iranian warning that they will not be spectators, if Israel goes in big and you conceive what the obvious impact of that would be, that is concerning. That's concerning because of Hezbollah. If Hezbollah opens up the second front in the north, that is a very big challenge for Israel, obviously, you know, a major issue. First of all, the U.S. does not even know where the American hostages are. They don't know how many there are who are being held hostages. The death count has been rising of Americans. That is a big concern, as well as that Israel's been going in, they went in on Friday on the ground with special ops to try to do reconnaissance, to find out where the hostages is – are, to map the territory, to see what the Hamas response would be to them on the ground. So they did that for about 24 hours on Friday. How much did they get? We don't really know, for obvious reasons. But they're trying to find out where the hostages are. But that is going to be just devastating. Big American concerns, you've heard this from the secretary privately and publicly. Saying that they are telling Israel, and he's going to be heading back to Israel, to stress the restraint. They are already losing the public relations, the support of Europe. So that is a big concern. But what you also heard today importantly, Lindsey Graham got approval to go in with that allegation, the Saudi deal is not dead. It comes right after Secretary Blinken was meeting with the Saudi leader overnight. So they still want that and, you know, what they're not saying privately is that the Sunni Arabs are not supporting Hamas. They would be very happy to eliminate Hamas.
KRISTEN WELKER:
So much uncertainty. And Ambassador Ross, of course you have negotiated Middle East peace for four administrations. So you know this region well. You know the players well, including Prime Minister Netanyahu, who wrote in his 2022 biography, I want to read you a piece of this, he says, quote, in terms of a ground invasion into Gaza, “that could only be done with the wholesale destruction of Gaza with tens of thousands of civilian deaths. After destroying the Hamas region, Israel would have to govern 2 million Gazans for an indefinite period. I had no intention of doing that. I believe the cost in blood and treasure was not worth it." And now here we are, and no clear answer as to who will govern Gaza.
AMB. DENNIS ROSS:
I guess I'd make a couple of points. First, 2009, 2012, 2014, 2016, '18, and '19, smaller skirmishes. 2021 you had all this. And it was based on an assumption. The assumption was the cost of managing dealing with Hamas in this way, knowing who they were, was better than the cost of going back into Gaza. Now, the problem is that all changed last Saturday. Because here was Israel losing more people in one day than they had literally since the Holocaust. And the way it was done, the people who were killed, the hostages taken, all of this, the sheer brutality of this, the sheer absence of even a shred of humanity, has shocked Israel and basically said, "We now have ISIS living next door. We can no longer tolerate." That's why what was said before no longer applies, because the assumption is no longer applied.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yeah, Hallie, Ambassador Ross talks about everything changing. Everything changed for President Biden –
HALLIE JACKSON:
That's right.
KRISTEN WELKER:
– this week. You've been reporting on this throughout the week as well. A test for him, a major test.
HALLIE JACKSON:
And one that he has cast in intensely personal terms, Kristen, as you well know here. The way he talks about it and the deep emotion that he has in these conversations, with a source close to the president telling me just this weekend that it is a function of empathy, they believe, that the president brings to this issue, and a function of experience as well. This is somebody who understands the world stage, who – who gets foreign policy. You are starting to see the White House also continue to draw in domestic messaging. Events on the economy, for example, keeping the focus on the domestic piece of it. Arguing that, "Hey, the president can kind of walk and chew gum at the same time here." Handle this major international crisis while also focusing on the same domestic lead that Americans also care about. What's interesting, too, and I was struck by Senator Graham in the interview with you, Kristen, talking about how he applauds President Biden, at least so far in the early stages of this response.
KRISTEN WELKER:
That was striking.
HALLIE JACKSON:
Well, we heard that, too, from former President Trump’s former ambassador, talking about how he believes former President George Bush saying the same thing. So you are seeing, at least at this moment, a bit of bipartisan support in large terms, and sort of broadly speaking, for the president at this moment.
KRISTEN WELKER:
It's such a great point. I mean, it's striking to hear Senator Lindsey Graham say that so far he supports what he's seen from the Biden administration. Take us behind the scenes, because of course some of the GOP candidates have been taking this chance to lash out at President Biden. But as Hallie says, this has been quite personal for the president and this administration.
TOLUSE OLURUNNIPA:
It is personal for the president. His aides see this as personal for him. And they also see the domestic focus of the president, talking about how this impacts not only him personally, but also him as an American in terms of focusing on all of the various foreign policy implications, but also looking at how this impacts domestic politics when you look at the fact that Senator Lindsey Graham is showing support for the president, other Republicans are showing support for the president. You've seen the White House. You've seen the Biden campaign amplify those positive messages from across the aisle to say that, yes, the president is the age that he is, but he brings experience to the table. He brings foreign policy experience to the table. And that is something that they're focusing on and trying to amplify when they talk about all of the various implications, not only domestically, but also on foreign soil.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yeah, and Andrea, again, this big test of this Saudi deal that we heard them say is not necessarily dead. The bigger picture here of those efforts to try to bring a broader peace in the region.
ANDREA MITCHELL:
It isn't dead. Obviously, it's not going to happen in the middle of a war. But they have to think about the day after. Who is going to govern – who is going to govern Gaza if they do get rid of Hamas, even if that's possible? We're talking about the Palestinian authority, they have been so weakened over decades, as Ambassador Ross said so well from personal experience. And Senator Graham said it has to be a younger – younger, better leadership by the Palestinian authority. That's not really credible right now. So who's going to do that? But – but the Saudi interest in this is an economic interest. They see the benefits. And the fact that this would transform the region. So everyone wants it. Netanyahu wants it and the Biden people want it to still be alive.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And it was so interesting, you heard Jake Sullivan say it's not clear what the exit strategy is at this point.
TOLUSE OLURUNNIPA:
Look, there will have to be a day-after strategy. You don't prepare a day-after strategy on the day after. So you have to begin to think about it. But you also have to be very practical right now. You begin talking about an exit strategy right now, it affects everything that's going on. You're trying also to deter a lot of different actors. You don't want to signal that we are so concerned about the day after that we need to stop this right now. The end result of this has to be Hamas being completely defeated, because if they're not defeated, if it looks like they won, their ideology of rejection will gain great tailwind behind it, and will have an impact on the whole region.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Hallie, very quickly. No clarity on who's going to be the next Speaker against this backdrop?
HALLIE JACKSON:
In the midst of this international crisis, I would just say it is not clear that Jim Jordan, who is the Speaker nominee at this point, has the votes to get there. I've heard in discussions just this weekend the possibility of this strategy to put Patrick McHenry in for longer. But, Kristen, you spoke with Congressman McCaul, who talked about how this is a threat right now internationally.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right, thank you all for being here. We do have to leave it there. And when we come back, a reminder of how Israeli leaders have struggled to navigate a path to peace for decades.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. Fifty-four years ago, Golda Meir, Israel's first and only female prime minister, joined Meet the Press during the War of Attrition, which Israel fought against Egypt, Jordan, and Syria. She called herself skeptical that the world's superpowers could bring peace in the near term. But talked about the long-term prospects.
[START TAPE]
EARL FOELL:
A general from Israel said to me recently that the present situation could easily go on for another ten years unchanged. But you have grandchildren. They will live presumably well into the next century. What do you see in the long term if we don't get a break in the present stalemate?
PRIME MINISTER GOLDA MEIR:
Mr. Foell, I am convinced, honestly, sincerely believe that my grandchildren will live in an area of peace in the Middle East because there are other grandmothers in Egypt and in Syria and in Jordan that have grandchildren. And they also want them to live, irrespective of what Nasser thinks or Hussein thinks. The grandmothers and the mothers want their children to live. Now, you say, "When will that come?" I don't know.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
Those are haunting words. And we leave you with the images of the pain of this war, now entering its second week. That is all for today. Thank you for watching. We will be back next week, because if it's Sunday, it's Meet the Press.