CHUCK TODD:
This Sunday: polarized and energized.
CROWD:
USA! USA!
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
The election is not a referendum. It’s a choice.
CHUCK TODD:
Sixteen days until Election Day our new NBC News poll reveals voter interest is at an all-time high with the potential for record turnout.
REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY:
I want this election to be about ideas.
CHUCK TODD:
But both sides now see the opposing party as a threat to America as we know it.
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
The American people are going to grab the reins back.
FMR. PRES. BARACK OBAMA:
Don’t sit this election out.
CHUCK TODD:
Majorities of Americans are worried about the economy and believe the country is heading on the wrong track. While GOP enthusiasm is growing, voters are evenly split on which party should control Congress. Plus, ordered to testify. The January 6th committee officially issues a subpoena for former President Trump to testify as his former advisor Steve Bannon is sentenced to prison for defying a January 6th subpoena.
PROTESTER:
Lock him up! Traitor!
CHUCK TODD:
My exclusive guest this morning: Republican Congresswoman Liz Cheney of Wyoming, vice chair of the January 6th committee.
REP. LIZ CHENEY:
The solution for conservatives cannot be that we’re going to torch the Constitution.
CHUCK TODD:
I'll ask her about the direction of the Republican Party, growing threats to democracy, and her own political future. Joining us for insight and analysis are: NBC News Chief White House correspondent Kristen Welker, Washington Post Senior National Political correspondent Ashley Parker, Democratic pollster Cornell Belcher, and Danielle Pletka of the American Enterprise Institute. Welcome to Sunday. It's Meet the Press.
ANNOUNCER:
From NBC News in Washington, the longest-running show in television history, this is Meet the Press with Chuck Todd.
CHUCK TODD:
A good Sunday morning. just 16 days until the election. Seven million Americans have already voted, and we have some brand new NBC poll numbers to share with you that indicate interest in this election is at an all-time high. Look at this. We record 70% of voters saying that interest in this election is at nine or 10. That is higher than ‘18, higher than ‘14, higher than ‘10. And what's significant about 2018? It was the highest midterm turnout in 100 years. This indicates we're going to be even higher than that. Overall, the battle for congressional control, it's a dead even 47-46. But if you go under the hood of our poll, this brand new poll, you will see that among likely voters, Republicans have an advantage, and among the final group of persuadable voters, Republicans have the advantage. That is why it feels as if the wind has shifted a little bit here. We asked them, “What message would you send with your vote to Congress?” Democrats, the number one message clearly “protect women's rights.” It goes along with all of those abortion rights ads we've been seeing among Democratic candidates. When you ask Republicans what message would they send it's a bit mixed, quite a few of them. One that does stand out though is “fix the economy,” “reduce the cost of living” on that front. Now, presidential job approval is one of those numbers that seems to be indicative of which way the wind is blowing. So President Biden sits at 45%. Where does that stand contextually? It is two points lower than Barack Obama in 2010. It's two points lower than Donald Trump in 2018. Both were wave elections against the party in the White House. Digging deeper here, we've got some all-time midterm highs that should serve as red flags for the Democrats. The wrong track, 71%, all-time midterm high since we've been polling. How about presidential disapproval on the economy sitting at 57%? Again, we hadn't recorded that ever that high in our poll. And the third one, the direction of the economy. In the next year, is it going to get better or worse? 50% say it's going to get worse. Again, an all-time high in midterm polling. Going further here, this interest in the election. We told you, it's high on both sides. This 69% number for Democrats is astonishing. It's 78% among Republicans. That is extra astonishing number, if you will. And the big gap here, African American interest among Democrats. This is why you're going to see a lot of Barack Obama in the next two weeks. If the Democrats don't get interest in the election up among African Americans, they're going to have some problems, particularly in some of those key Senate races. There is one lone bright spot here for Democrats. Biden is seen as a bit more -- his agenda a bit more agreeable than Trump’s, though everybody is negative here. Do you agree with Joe Biden most of the time, 45% mirrors his job rating, 50% disagree with his agenda most of the time. How about Donald Trump? 36% agree, 56% disagree most of the time. If you want to call that a bright spot, there is one there for the Democrats. Here's another one here, “most important issue facing this country.” Number one, for the second poll out of three, threats to democracy. Number two and three are both economic-related jobs in the economy and cost of living. But this issue of threats to democracy rose to number one this summer after the start of the January 6th hearings.
[BEGIN TAPE]
REP: LIZ CHENEY:
Our institutions only hold when men and women of good faith make them hold regardless of the political cost. We have no guarantee that these men and women will be in place next time. Any future president inclined to attempt what Donald Trump did in 2020 has now learned not to install people who could stand in the way.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
And joining me now is Republican Congresswoman Liz Cheney of Wyoming, vice chair of the select committee investigating January 6th. Welcome back to Meet the Press.
REP. LIZ CHENEY:
Great to be back with you, Chuck.
CHUCK TODD:
I don't want to presume anything, but is your number one issue threats to democracy, as a voter?
REP. LIZ CHENEY:
It is. I think that when you look at the extent to which we're facing challenges now that threaten to unravel the fundamental institutions and structures of our election system and process, that is the basis and the foundation on which we can have all of these other debates. So it absolutely is the number one issue.
CHUCK TODD:
On the Wyoming ballot we know of at least two election deniers, the woman that defeated you in the primary and the gentleman by the name of Chuck Gray running for secretary of state. I assume they did not earn your vote.
REP. LIZ CHENEY:
No, they will not. And I think no one of any party should be voting for people who are election deniers, and I think we have to be clear what it means to be an election denier. It means in the case, for example, of Kari Lake and Mark Finchem in Arizona, they have both said, "We've looked at all of the facts, we've looked at the results of the election in 2020, we've looked at the law, we've looked at the fact that the courts all ruled against Donald Trump, we've looked at the audits and the recounts. We are willing to ignore all of that, and we are saying we would not have certified that election." They're telling you that they'll only certify an election they agree with. And that – there's not much graver threat to the democracy than you can imagine than that.
CHUCK TODD:
I'm going to play for you something. You brought up Kari Lake. I want to play for you, Virginia governor Glenn Youngkin was campaigning with her. He was specifically asked by my colleague Garrett Haake about your critique of Republicans that were campaigning with Kari Lake. Here was his response.
[BEGIN TAPE]
GOV. GLENN YOUNGKIN:
I believe that every state deserves a Republican governor and Arizona deserves another Republican governor.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
A lot of Republicans in the last three weeks that I would describe as empathetic to what you've been doing have suddenly found themselves deciding, "Hey, party over country." What do you make of those decisions?
REP. LIZ CHENEY:
You know, I think they are really indefensible decisions. And, you know, I've said I think that Glenn Youngkin has done a good job as governor of Virginia, but nobody should be out advocating for the election of people who will not honor the sanctity of our elections process. And, you know, people who do that are in fact putting politics ahead of the constitution and ahead of the country.
CHUCK TODD:
I’ve noticed, Dan Cox is the Republican nominee in Maryland. It's been pretty easy for Republicans to ignore him. It seems like it's been harder for them to ignore Kari Lake in Arizona, battleground state. Even – we've seen some even campaign with Doug Mastriano in Pennsylvania. This win at – whatever it takes to win, winning trumps everything, how do you blow that up in the party?
REP. LIZ CHENEY:
Well, I think you've got to remind people that everybody has an obligation – and obligation to defend the constitution, an obligation to do what's right. And so right now you've got a lot of Republicans in particular, Democrats do the same thing, it just happens that our candidates are more dangerous right now, but you have got a lot of Republicans who are saying, "You know what? I'm going to ignore the threat posed by the former president who attempted to use force to stop – to overturn an election, to stop the count of electoral votes. I'm going to ignore that. I'm going to ignore these people who embrace him. I'm going to ignore the danger, and I'm just going to focus on the near term: is the Republican Party going to prevail?"
CHUCK TODD:
Why do you think more Republicans can't -- Look, I just came back from Georgia. Brad Raffensperger, the secretary of state, Brian Kemp, the governor, both beat back Trump challenges. Now, they didn't use anti-Trump rhetoric to do it, but they won. And they look like they're pretty – they’re going to be in better shape. Why do you think other Republicans can't look at them and say, "Oh, it's good politics, not bad politics."
REP. LIZ CHENEY:
You know, my hope is that ultimately our party will come back to that. I think it may take a couple of election cycles to do that. But I think, you know, people need to understand they're not bystanders. They're accountable for their actions. The people who are excusing and appeasing and enabling are also responsible for the impact of that, and words matter. And when you support and endorse somebody who said that they only will honor results if they win, then you are responsible and accountable for that.
CHUCK TODD:
Well, somebody who's been walking this line has been Mitch McConnell. On one hand, I think on Trump you and him see eye to eye on some things, the danger of Trump and all of this. But I want to bring up an excerpt in a book that Jonathan Martin and Alex Burns wrote. And this is about McConnell. "McConnell found the whole Liz Cheney saga confusing. In his mind, she was committing a cardinal sin, relinquishing power. Why, he wondered aloud, would Cheney willingly jeopardize her leadership post by continually condemning Trump? ‘Just ignore him like I do,' he said." What's your response to McConnell? I think you've probably had this conversation with him.
REP.E LIZ CHENEY:
Yeah, look, I think obviously the idea that we could simply ignore Donald Trump and the threat would go away is clearly wrong. And I think that, you know, Leader McConnell and Leader McCarthy obviously have taken slightly different approaches to Donald Trump. Leader McCarthy is embracing him. Leader McConnell has thought we can ignore him and go forward as a party without him continuing to have power and authority. That's clearly not the case. And my view from the beginning has been, you know, we have to, as a party, reject insurrection. We have to reject what he stands for. I don't think this is an issue about which you can make a political calculation. I think it matters too much. So clearly, you know, Leader McConnell and I do not see eye to eye on this.
CHUCK TODD:
He had a chance to vote to convict Donald Trump. Do you think – how much of a mistake do you think that vote – his decision not to vote to convict was?
REP. LIZ CHENEY:
Well, I think that it was a mistake. I think it was the wrong decision. I think, you know, the fact that all of the Republicans who did not vote to convict, some did but not enough -- you know, we were in a situation where I would have liked to have seen that trial take place immediately. I don't think that the Article of Impeachment should have been held. I think there were a number of people responsible for the delay in that trial, but that was a mistake. And I think clearly this was an impeachable offense for which Donald Trump should have been convicted.
CHUCK TODD:
Has it made you think less of McConnell?
REP. LIZ CHENEY:
I don’t – he and I do not agree on this issue, and I would not like to characterize it beyond that.
CHUCK TODD:
All right. Let's talk about a Speaker McCarthy. You clearly think this is a mistake, that he will -- that you are concerned about his speakership. What specifically concerns you?
REP. LIZ CHENEY:
Well, look, the Speaker is second in line to the presidency. And at every moment since, frankly, the aftermath of the election in 2020, when Minority Leader McCarthy has had the opportunity to do the right thing or do something that serves his own political purpose he always chooses to serve his own political purpose. And, you know, that extends to what we've seen just in the last few days with these comments about aid to Ukraine, the idea that somehow the party is now no longer going to support the Ukrainian people, which, you know, for somebody who has a picture of Ronald Reagan on the wall of his office in the Capitol, the notion that now Kevin McCarthy is going to make himself the leader of the pro-Putin wing of my party is just a stunning thing. It's dangerous. He knows better. But the fact that he's willing to go down the path of suggesting that America will no longer stand for freedom I think tells you he's willing to sacrifice everything for his own political gain.
CHUCK TODD:
Do you think at all this is just gamesmanship? He just wants the Democrats to do it in the lame duck? Or do you think this is a reflection of an isolationist streak that's actually taking hold inside the Republican Party?
REP. LIZ CHENEY:
We certainly have isolationists inside our party. They – we have isolationists inside the Democratic Party as well. But leaders have to lead. And when you have the leader of the Republican Party suggesting that we can play with the fire of isolationism, suggesting that somehow the American people will not support the fight for freedom, which is the front lines of freedom right now happening in Ukraine in the battle between Putin and Zelenskyy, and the notion that he would be willing to embrace that, to enable it, tells you he's just not fit for the office.
CHUCK TODD:
I'm going to ask you a little bit more about what's going on. We have Iran now on the ground in Ukraine helping the Russians. At the same time, Iran sits on OPEC. Our supposed ally, Saudi Arabia, who doesn't like Iran, is sitting here making decisions that essentially are helping the Russians, helping the Iranians, hurting the West. What kind of – what should our foreign policy be to Saudi Arabia right now considering the current circumstances?
REP. LIZ CHENEY:
Well, look, I think first of all we ought to absolutely and clearly walk away from the negotiating table with the Iranians. The notion that the Iranians are now providing these drones to the Russians to use in Ukraine, if nothing else has convinced us yet to walk away from the table, that should. It also tells us the Russians are having a hard time replenishing their supplies. And so the sanctions are working. We ought to do more. We ought to do more with respect to sanctions against Iran. But across the board, you know, I think that there are too many people around the world who no longer think that they can count on the United States. They no longer think that they can trust us, that we'll stand with our friends and that we will ensure that we're standing against our adversaries, but it’s –
CHUCK TODD:
I hear you. The Middle East, though, is really, it looks problematic from a U.S. -- I mean, some of our closest allies are kind of neutral in this war, right? Israel --
REP. LIZ CHENEY:
Yeah --
CHUCK TODD:
– has been sort of neutral, kind of helping late. Obviously, Saudi Arabia. How much of a problem do you view this as?
REP. LIZ CHENEY:
Well, it's a big problem, and I think it's a problem of American leadership. We need to be doing more, faster, in terms of what we're providing to the Ukrainians. We need to be very clear. You know, when Kevin McCarthy suggests that the Republicans are not going to support aid to Ukraine that is incredibly damaging to America's standing in the world. It's damaging to the effort that Ukrainians are engaged in. We need to demonstrate that the United States of America recognizes we have to be a leader in the world. We're not going to go back to the days of isolationism, which has been a threat in this country, you know, ever since the end of World War II.
CHUCK TODD:
Before we go, I want to – on the other side of the break we're going to go deep into January 6th and your investigation. But I'm curious, for four years you publicly were supportive of the Trump administration. You were never a big Trump fan. That was pretty clear. And you would disagree with him on things when you thought it was time. But you voted with him 93% of the time. Do you look back and think of any moment and think, "Boy, maybe I should've spoke out sooner. Maybe I should have confronted him sooner”?
REP. LIZ CHENEY:
At the time, I was confronting him on the policies when I disagreed with him, and they tended to be mostly national security policies. I'm a conservative. As you said, I voted with him 93% of the time. But I think that there's no question that the – his election as president in 2016 began something that's been very dangerous for this nation. And we now see he's willing to do everything he needs to do, everything within his power, to stop the peaceful transition of power. And he can never be president again.
CHUCK TODD:
All right. Let me pause our conversation here. When we come back we're going to go deeper into the January 6th committee, which officially issued a subpoena of the former president to testify and hand over documents. Why did they wait until now? We'll have more with the Congresswoman after this break.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. On Friday, Donald Trump was officially subpoenaed by the January 6th committee, ordered to turn over documents related to the insurrection by November 4th, and he's ordered to appear before the panel by November 14th. All this came just hours after Steve Bannon, the president's former advisor, was sentenced to four months in prison for contempt of Congress for disobeying a similar subpoena. The sentence was stayed, pending appeal. The Congresswoman is back. So let me start with the subpoena. I've got to start with Steve Bannon first. You've both successfully showed that your subpoenas were enforceable. He's going to serve time, but he's still not going to turn over documents, is he?
REP. LIZ CHENEY:
Well, I think Steve Bannon is one of a number of individuals who clearly have something to hide. You know, he actually, as you've seen, was convicted of contempt and has been sentenced to, to prison. Others have come in front of the committee and taken the Fifth. And I think it leads the American people to ask, "What is it all of these people, including Donald Trump, are attempting to hide about January 6th?"
CHUCK TODD:
You've issued the subpoena, and I assume you're going to let it play out. So what happens on November 5th if you don't have any material from that?
REP. LIZ CHENEY:
So we are anticipating that the former president will understand his legal obligation, will comply with the subpoena. We've made clear in the subpoena a number of things, including that if, if he intends to take the Fifth that he ought to alert us of that ahead of time. We also -- I would encourage everybody to go to our committee's website and read the letter that accompanies the subpoena because understanding what a grave and serious situation this is, the committee took great -- made a great effort to lay out in the letter itself the specific information we've already gathered about Donald Trump's personal and direct role in managing and overseeing and coordinating the sophisticated multi-part plan to overturn the election.
CHUCK TODD:
Is the -- is the committee open to his supposed offer, or at least behind the scenes offer, of going on live television?
REP. LIZ CHENEY:
So the committee treats this matter with great seriousness. And we are going to proceed in terms of the questioning of the former president under oath. It may take multiple days. And it will be done with a level of rigor and discipline and seriousness that it deserves. We are not going to allow the former president --
CHUCK TODD:
Television spectacle, it's not going to be.
REP. LIZ CHENEY:
He's not going to turn this into a circus. This isn't going to be, you know, his first debate against Joe Biden and the circus and the food fight that that became. This, this is far too serious set of issues. And we've made clear exactly what his obligations are. And we are proceeding with, with that set out.
CHUCK TODD:
If you don't get cooperation from him, do you have time for this legal fight?
REP. LIZ CHENEY:
We have many, many alternatives that we will consider if the former president decides that he is not going to comply with his legal obligation -- a legal obligation every American citizen has to comply with a subpoena.
CHUCK TODD:
There was some news this week from a judge having to do with John Eastman's emails and what emails needed to be turned over. And there seems to be one extraordinarily damning piece of evidence. You know, some would argue that you guys have made a circumstantial case about the president's culpability here. But this may be something where he signed -- knowingly signed something that was false. How important is that email --
REP. LIZ CHENEY:
Well --
CHUCK TODD:
-- and that piece of information?
REP. LIZ CHENEY:
-- I would say first that the -- what we have laid out is not circumstantial. What we've laid out in a number of instances, includes, you know, the extent to which the president himself, people who were in the room with the president at the time, his own, most senior officials testifying to the committee about his personal and direct involvement. We know, for example, from, from his own actions and his own inactions what he did and failed to do while the attack was under way. It appears from Judge Carter's latest decision that the president himself signed information that was false, that he knew to be false, and submitted that to a Federal Court. So I think it's one more piece that we've seen of a president who fundamentally does not believe that he has an obligation to abide by the law or to abide by the rulings of the courts, and demonstrates again how serious this is.
CHUCK TODD:
I'm not asking you to influence Merrick Garland, not asking you to influence any U.S. attorney. What crime do you believe he committed?
REP. LIZ CHENEY:
Look, I think that there are multiple criminal offenses. The committee -- I don't want to get in front of the committee, but that we are looking at. And I think it's very important for everybody to recognize that when you are faced with a set of facts, when you're faced with evidence as clear as this is, and some have said, "Well, you know, we don't know what his intent was. Maybe he really thought he won the election." We actually know that's not the case. We've put on testimony that showed that he admitted that he lost. But even if, even if he thought that he had won, you may not send an armed mob to the Capitol. You may not sit for 187 minutes and refuse to stop the attack while it's under way. You may not send out a tweet that incites further violence. So we've been very clear about a number of different criminal offenses that are likely at issue here. If, if the Department of Justice determines that they have the evidence that we believe is there and they make a decision not to prosecute, I think that really calls into question whether or not we're a nation of laws.
CHUCK TODD:
I have -- you know, they've got a lot of issues that they're dealing with that may be criminal when it comes to the former president. If they make the decision to charge him on the Mar-a-Lago classified document situation because perhaps it's an easier case to prosecute, and they don't choose to go down this road, do you find that to be a mistake?
REP. LIZ CHENEY:
I have confidence in the professionals at the Department of Justice. I have confidence in the attorney general, that they are taking very seriously their obligations with respect to every aspect of the potential criminal conduct by the former president. And let's just have the American people pause on that, that we are talking about multiple instances of criminal conduct --
CHUCK TODD:
Separate --
REP. LIZ CHENEY:
-- by the former president of the United States.
CHUCK TODD:
There’s separate criminal investigations right now in --
REP. LIZ CHENEY:
Right.
CHUCK TODD:
-- the Justice Department. I'm curious about something in history that I, I think may have both mistakenly guided how people of our generation view history, and that was Gerald Ford's decision to pardon Richard Nixon. If he doesn't pardon Richard Nixon and Richard Nixon is -- had faced criminal prosecution, do you think the country would be more open to dealing with Trump this way?
REP. LIZ CHENEY:
I think that it was the right thing for President Ford to do. I do not think that that would be the right thing for President Biden to do. Some have suggested that. President Ford pardoned President Nixon after President Nixon had resigned from office, had left office. I think that it was the right decision to make in terms of the national healing there. President Trump continues to this day to glorify those who attacked the Capitol on January 6th. He continues to this day to say things that he knows caused violence. And so I think that the two things are very different.
CHUCK TODD:
You know, Richard Nixon though never admitted culpability, although Gerald Ford insisted to death that he doesn’t issue that pardon if he -- the pardon was, was not --
REP. LIZ CHENEY:
Well, he resigned from office.
CHUCK TODD:
Yeah.
REP. LIZ CHENEY:
I mean, but, look, we've never in our history had a president do what Donald Trump did, and frankly, continues to do. And we have to take that very seriously.
CHUCK TODD:
You among politicians have had a unique experience. There was a time you were extraordinarily demonized by the left. There's a time --
REP. LIZ CHENEY:
I don't remember that time, Chuck.
CHUCK TODD:
Really? Then you've been extraordinarily demonized by the right. What has that, what has that experience been like for you?
REP. LIZ CHENEY:
Look, I think that we have to deal with sort of the facts that are in front of us. And my view is the job that I have to do right now and that I have had to do, especially since January 6th, is so important that that really is my focus. I think that, that we have seen across the country, we've certainly seen on our committee, a coming together of people despite partisan differences and policy differences to say, "Look, the most important issue is the defense of the republic." And we have to do that on a nonpartisan basis. I've been extremely disappointed and very sad by the response to the vast majority of my colleagues on the Republican side to this.
CHUCK TODD:
Yeah.
REP. LIZ CHENEY:
I really believed growing up in the family that I grew up in that, you know, when the chips were down, people would do the right thing. And it turns out that not very many people do.
CHUCK TODD:
You have said you're going to do whatever it takes to stop Donald Trump from getting back to that Oval Office. Define whatever it takes.
REP. LIZ CHENEY:
Look, there are very few certainties in politics. But one thing that you can absolutely count on is that there are tens of millions of Americans who will do everything we need to do to make sure Donald Trump is never the president again. The threat that he poses is too great. He's demonstrated his willingness to use force to attempt to stop the peaceful transition of power. And there are simply many, many millions more Americans who, despite any party affiliation, understand how dangerous that is, and will make sure he's never in the Oval Office again.
CHUCK TODD:
How do you bring this country together though because, as I said, you've both had a unique experience in seeing partisan hatred, partisan anger directed at you individually. And we see this divide. You see it in our own polling. And it seems very difficult. How would you try to bridge this divide to a national audience?
REP. LIZ CHENEY:
You know, I, I experience a unity every, every day as I travel around the country, as I work with colleagues on Capitol Hill. There are responsible and rational and sane people in both parties who want what's best for our country and who want to elect politicians who are going to do the right thing, who want to see elected officials engage on the basis of substance and policy differences, not minimize those differences, but really engage on the basis of that. And so I've been very heartened by the unity that I've seen, so many who understand we have to say, "Stop. We cannot go over this abyss." And we have to come together to solve the great challenges our nation faces.
CHUCK TODD:
Donald Trump ends up the nominee in 2024, you've said you're not going to be a Republican anymore. So it implies you think the Republican Party can be saved?
REP. LIZ CHENEY:
I think that the party has either got to come back from where we are right now, which is a very dangerous and toxic place, or the party will splinter and there will be a new conservative party that rises. And if Donald Trump is the nominee of the Republican Party, the party will shatter and there will be a conservative party that rises in its place.
CHUCK TODD:
I was with a voter group this week who both were exhausted by the January 6th committee and wanted to see you run for president. What would it take to get you to run for president?
REP. LIZ CHENEY:
Look, I, I am going to be very focused on all of the things that we've been talking about. And I care deeply, as I know you do, as millions of people do, about this nation, and about the blessing that we have as a constitutional republic. And so, you know, whether that means helping other candidates, whether it means helping to educate people around the country. I have been on a number of college campuses and am very inspired by those young people.
CHUCK TODD:
Yeah.
REP. LIZ CHENEY:
But I'm focused on what we've got to do to save the country from this very dangerous moment we're in, you know, not right now on whether I'm going to be a candidate or not.
CHUCK TODD:
There are some people who suggest if you were a third party candidate, it would be enough to stop Trump.
REP. LIZ CHENEY:
Well, we will do whatever it takes, as I said. He will not be the President of the United States again.
CHUCK TODD:
Before I let you go, this investigation has an expiration date if Republicans take control of Congress. There's no report out yet before the election. I know you on one hand want to take politics out of it, but shouldn't this be on the ballot? Shouldn't the decision whether this investigation continues be on the ballot in November?
REP. LIZ CHENEY:
Look, I think it's very important to take politics out of it. The committee is investigating and proceeding in a way that is not partisan at all. I think that, as people go in to vote, they need to recognize that there are certain candidates who are anti-democracy. They need to recognize that election deniers are anti-democracy, and they should not vote for those people.
CHUCK TODD:
Where does this investigation go on January 4th?
REP. LIZ CHENEY:
Well, you know, if we were in a nation where our politics were operating the way they should, the investigation would proceed no matter what. I think that the Republicans have made very clear that they're not interested in getting to the bottom of what happened or holding people to account. And I think that also ought to be something that Americans across the country are paying attention to. Why would you not want to understand --
CHUCK TODD:
Yeah.
REP. LIZ CHENEY:
-- how this happened?
CHUCK TODD:
Congresswoman Liz Cheney. Believe it or not, I still have questions for you. But I am out of time.
REP. LIZ CHENEY:
Well, thank you --
CHUCK TODD:
It's good to be --
REP. LIZ CHENEY:
-- for all the time. I appreciate it. Thanks --
CHUCK TODD:
All right, and be safe --
REP. LIZ CHENEY:
-- for having me, Chuck.
CHUCK TODD:
-- stay safe on the trail --
REP. LIZ CHENEY:
Thank you so much.
CHUCK TODD:
-- as you go out there. Before we go to break, this week on Meet the Press Reports, my colleague Yamiche Alcindor took a deep dive into the growing threat to American democracy and what can be done to secure the vote. Al Schmidt served on the Philadelphia County Board of Elections as a Republican in 2020.
[BEGIN TAPE]
YAMICHE ALCINDOR:
Schmidt was targeted for not echoing the MAGA conspiracy theory that the election was being stolen, and for not questioning the integrity of the vote count.
AL SCHMIDT:
Well, I was a Republican before Donald Trump was a Republican. It's important that we, we stand up against these lies and that we not surrender the Republican Party.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
You can watch the full episode of Meet the Press Reports: Securing the Vote. It's available on YouTube, Roku, AppleTV, wherever you get NBC News. And when we come back, the midterm momentum shifted. Our panel is here to discuss whether it'll shift again.
CHUCK TODD:
We are back with the panel: NBC News Chief White House Correspondent Kristen Welker, also co-anchor of Weekend TODAY. Ashley Parker is the senior national political correspondent for the Washington Post. Cornell Belcher is a Democratic pollster and Danielle Pletkak, the senior fellow at the American Enterprise Institute. All right. Let's talk midterms. I want to start, Kristen, with the person you cover every day, Joe Biden in his own way acknowledging the shift in momentum. Take a listen.
[BEGIN TAPE]
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
I think that we're going to see one more shift back to our side in the closing days. And let me tell you why I think that. We're starting to see some of the good news on the economy.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
Ah. There it is. They're looking for this good news on the economy again, Kristen.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Right.
CHUCK TODD:
They seem to acknowledge that things turned against them in the last couple weeks.
KRISTEN WELKER:
They have acknowledged that. And a lot of Democrats think that the president is being overly optimistic there, by the way. A couple of things that are notable. What is he trying to do to shift things back in the other direction? He's trying to put the spotlight on Roe in this very fascinating way of almost trying to turn back the clock and say, "Remember the outrage that you felt on the day that Roe was overturned?" Because what's happened is there's a sense that that outrage is now baked in the cake, right, that these polls that we're seeing get much closer, and with voters largely focused on issues like threats to the democracy and the economy, that there's not a whole lot more wiggle room there. And also putting the focus on the economy. He had that announcement this week, that he was going to release 15-million barrels from the strategic petroleum reserve. That, by the way, capped an announcement that he had already made. So I think the impact on gas prices is going to be pretty minimal. It allows him to show, though, that he's working on this problem. And I think to send a message to Democrats more broadly, we can't just be talking about abortion. His message to them is, "We need to talk about the economy," and also, Chuck, crime –
CHUCK TODD:
Yeah.
KRISTEN WELKER:
– which has been a big issue in some of these very close races, particularly Pennsylvania Senate race.
CHUCK TODD:
Ashley, I've got to put up another quote here from Nancy Pelosi from the beginning of this week in an interview with Punchbowl News. "We'll have to message it better in the next three weeks ahead. I think we're in great shape. Other people don't want to believe that." She was talking about the economy. What are you – what are you messaging better in three weeks?
ASHLEY PARKER:
Well, this has been the challenge that has been bedeviling the administration since last fall when they started experiencing inflation, right? We reported today that there was a big debate in the administration about how they should talk about it. And some people argued to sort of try to not address inflation, at least early on, head-on. You may recall when they kept on calling it transitory. Of course, it was not transitory. And they wanted to focus on the good economic indicators, like the low unemployment rate. And there are those. But at the end of the day, what voters feel, the number that matters most when it comes to the economy, and this is why messaging is a challenge, is inflation, it's that 8.3% number from September. Because regardless of all of these other positive indicators, and they do exist, when you drive to work or you drive your kid to a soccer game and you pass gas stations, each sign is a billboard of how much gas costs.
CHUCK TODD:
Right.
ASHLEY PARKER:
When you go to the grocery store, milk and eggs. So, yes, they absolutely do need to message it better.
CHUCK TODD:
Yeah.
ASHLEY PARKER:
But it's not something they've been able to figure out this entire year.
CHUCK TODD:
You know, the other thing that happened this week, Dani, is that it just feels like, "Oh. The midterms look like traditional midterms again." There's always the but for. In this case, it's but for Trump, and but for abortion rights. But everything else looks like a traditional midterm.
DANIELLE PLETKA:
Well, I mean, I think we're gonna see, aren't we, soon enough, thank God. I cannot wait.
CHUCK TODD:
You don't want anymore ads? No?
DANIELLE PLETK:
No.
CHUCK TODD:
You're tired of the ads?
DANIELLE PLETKA:
No. I don't want anymore, or email, or anything else. No. Look. I mean, I think all elections are traditional elections in the sense that, you know, most of the base votes for the guy they were going to vote for in the first place. It's always the question of the swing. I do think that what's different in this instance is that we do have these overhang issues. We have the question of the president and his unpopularity. We have the question of Donald Trump and his insanity. And we have this unbelievable, as Ashley said, overweening inflation that a lot of us haven't experienced in, for me at least, 40 years, for some never in their life. I just went to Giant, our supermarket, and I couldn't believe how fast I got to $100 bucks. I mean, it was nothing I bought. People feel that before they feel outrage about abortion, before they feel outrage about democracy.
CHUCK TODD:
Oh. I think the housing crash is actually having a huge impact in the last two weeks, the fact that mortgage rates surged to 6%. Cornell, I guess the big question is: If this is a more competitive election, it's going to mean the Democratic Coalition turned out, what are you concerned about?
CORNELL BELCHER:
Look. I think broadly a lot of you are wrong.
CHUCK TODD:
But –
CORNELL BELCHER:
Especially you.
CHUCK TODD:
You may be – we're going to find out in 16 days or 25,000 years, however long it takes to count the ballots.
CORNELL BELCHER:
Look. You know, momentum shifts back and forth. I don't know if we've got as much momentum shift, or we are actually shifting momentum in our narrative. Look. Look. What was the NBC’s News generic Democratic support in October of 2018? It was 48%. What is it right now? It's 47%. Shift? I don't know. Right now, and I think – and the NBC polls show it, we have an enthusiasm like we've never seen before. And what we already know in some of these battleground states, we have more people early voting than we saw in 2020. This is not going to be your regular midterm election by any chance.
CHUCK TODD:
But, Cornell, the thing about our poll that really struck me is how familiar it looked. It looked like the Virginia exit poll when you looked at enthusiasm: rural versus the suburban. Suburban was good. Rural was through the roof.
CORNELL BELCHER:
Yeah. But you need more people, right? You know where we've been losing population since 2010? Rural voters. Rural voters surged in 2018 and 2020 also. As Jay-Z would say, "You need more people." And, look –underneath – and look, I think a lot of the polling numbers, the top lines may not be accurate because it's all about the universal. And we don't know what the universal voters are going to be.
CHUCK TODD:
Well speaking of the universal voters, and the fact – and the one thing I pointed out was the fact that African Americans were not at the same level of interest in this election as other parts of the Democratic Coalition. The Barack Obama campaign schedule is about to get busy, isn't it?
KRISTEN WELKER:
It is about to get very busy. He is going to be in Georgia. He's raising money. Milwaukee, Las Vegas, as well.
CHUCK TODD:
I'm still waiting. Where is Philadelphia on here?
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, good question.
CHUCK TODD:
I assume he is going to Philadelphia.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Good question. Well, we'll have to see. But that race, for obvious reasons, they're being very careful about who they invite. I think it's worth noting we're seeing a lot of former president Obama on the campaign trail, not as much of the current president. And he's really sort of breaking with the past, Chuck, because he's holding these sort of issues-focused events where he can talk about what he thinks are his successes, but not those traditional big rallies. I'm told that's gonna change in the final week. But it's notable.
CHUCK TODD:
I'm old enough to remember when a sitting Democratic President Obama needed to look to a former Democratic president named Bill Clinton to help.
CORNELL BELCHER:
Yes.
KRISTEN WELKER:
The Explainer in Chief. The Explainer in Chief. That's right --
CHUCK TODD:
It's funny how the former presidents all seem to look better in hindsight except for one current former president –
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yeah. Right.
CHUCK TODD:
– these days. Anyways, up next: It's the one issue both parties – both parties do agree on. But it makes any hope of coming together nearly impossible.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back, Data Download time. A little bit more from our important NBC News poll. When you look at the most important issues of this election, a picture emerges of just two sets of voters and two Americas. And there's really only one issue both parties agree on, and it may be the most polarizing of them all. Let me just show you, most important issue by party. Among Democrats, the number one issue is threats to democracy, abortion rights comes in second, cost of living third, climate change fourth and if you look at television advertising, really abortion rights is what you see more than threats to democracy. Among Republicans, the top three is jobs and the economy as one, immigration and the border, which you actually see in advertising more, is number two. Cost of living is really the only issue that is in the top four among both Republicans and Democrats. But here's the real issue that both parties actually agree on. Will the other party's agenda destroy America? Eighty-one percent of Democrats believe this about Republicans. Seventy-nine percent of Republicans believe this about Democrats. Now ask yourself, how's anybody going to bring this country together when right now this is what the two parties think of each other. When we come back, why political chaos is not a uniquely American trait these days.
[BEGIN TAPE]
LIZ TRUSS:
I am a fighter and not a quitter. I am resigning as leader of the Conservative Party.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
We are back. So Brexit and Donald Trump, Dani, it all came about the West at the same time. I think we have to thank our founders, because our system of government has prevented the chaos that the U.K. has gone through. But what are the similarities between the U.K. and here? You were talking about it's conservative politics.
DANIELLE PLETKA:
Right. Well, I think much more than a crisis of democracy in the U.K., what we see a crisis of conservatism. This is the Tory Party actually having no idea what they stand for.
CHUCK TODD:
Sounds familiar, actually.
DANIELLE PLETKA:
Well, yes. And it's not just here. It's here. It's Australia. It's all over Europe. And, of course, it's in the U.K. And, you know, we're just seeing it all out in the open. What did Byrd used to say? You know, watching democracy is like watching sausage being made? Right. And it's a particularly gross sausage in the U.K. So we don't even know who's going to be prime minister at the end of this week. And God knows, we don't know who's going to be prime minister next year.
CHUCK TODD: Yeah.
CORNELL BELCHER:
Can I quick point here?
CHUCK TODD: Yea.
CORNELL BELCHER:
From what I know, hanging out in the Kwantt Bar in London. But what I actually think is durable, I actually look at their democracy and I go, "There's a durable democracy." You know why? Because you can't imagine Republicans forcing Trump or forcing the leader out here in America. You cannot imagine that. Why I think they're more durable --
CHUCK TODD:
That’s actually a good point.
CORNELL BELCHER:
– is that Tories forced their leader out. We can't imagine that happening in our country.
DANIELLE PLETKA:
Well, except it's not a freaking Pez dispenser. I mean, forcing them out every week is perhaps--
CHUCK TODD:
Sausage and Pez dispensers.
DANIELLE PLETKA:
I know. I'm an analogy woman.
CHUCK TODD:
I love it. I love it. I want to pivot back to domestic politics. Kristen you had, believe it or not, it was less than a week ago that you interviewed Herschel Walker.
KRISTEN WELKER:
I had to remind myself. I know --
CHUCK TODD:
Yeah. Must feel like months ago.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Seemed a lot longer ago --
CHUCK TODD:
We asked a question about sort of moral failures. "Would that drive you away from supporting that candidate if your party's candidate has a major moral failure?" 63% of Democrats and 67% of Republicans said they'd still vote for that candidate.
22% of Democrats and 16% of Republicans said they would probably skip the race or vote third party. And just 4% of Democrats and 6% of Republicans would actually vote the other party. It is a small slice. Basically, jersey color still matters more than moral fiber.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Absolutely. And that was very clear being on the ground in Georgia. And have to stress the fact that Herschel Walker denies all of these allegations that he paid for an ex-girlfriend to have an abortion. However, it was notable, Chuck, because not only did he take a page from the Trump playbook, very defiant in the face of these allegations – I think in this final stretch he almost feels emboldened in part because of numbers like that, in part because I think he had better-than-expected showing at the debate. And if you talk to voters on the ground in Georgia, I think because of the name recognition, because of who Herschel Walker is, some of that is baked in. But I think it's notable, your point about the fact this cuts to Democrats, too. This is not just Republicans.
CHUCK TODD:
Actually, at least they were honest. Because we've seen it, right? Bill Clinton got a pass from Democrats. Donald Trump basically got a pass from Republicans. So why wouldn't Herschel Walker get a pass, right?
ASHLEY PARKER:
Well, what was so striking is right after those allegations broke I was talking to Republicans in Georgia. And one Republican operative said to me – they would not put this on the record – but they basically said, "I don't care if Herschel Walker performed the abortion himself. I'm still voting for him." Which, again, was quite honest. But that sort of is the reality. That said, when you look at the Raphael Warnock campaign and some of the ads they are running, they are sort of betting that they can give some Republicans, some independents a permission structure to say, "I find this so abhorrent that I'm going to vote for the Democrat."
CHUCK TODD:
Well, look. We're going to stay in Georgia. Speaking of different ways that Mr. Warnock is trying to appeal to independents, take a look at this ad.
[BEGIN TAPE]
MALE VOICE (ARCHIVAL):
Things work surprisingly well together.
FEMALE VOICE (ARCHIVAL):
Pizza with pineapples.
FEMALE VOICE (ARCHIVAL):
French fry and frosting.
MALE VOICE (ARCHIVAL):
Raphael Warnock and Ted Cruz?
MALE VOICE (ARCHIVAL):
That's right. Raphael Warnock partnered with Republican Ted Cruz to extend I-14, connecting military communities in Texas and Georgia, which will help create jobs from Columbus to Macon to Augusta.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
Cornell, in our polarized environment sometimes I wonder: Is the benefits of that – could it hurt you with any base voters who don't want to see you working with the other side at all?
CORNELL BELCHER:
No, I think – that's a really good ad. There's two points here. One: The broad swath of middle American voters, what we hear all the time – you've heard them say it – "I want to see them together. Please work together and accomplish something real." He's showing that he's worked together and actually accomplished something real. So he's above the partisan fray. The other quick point about this is that, you know, if you're talking about six or seven points of Republicans who won't vote for a morally problematic candidate, you're talking about the difference in most of these elections.
CHUCK TODD:
That's a fair point.
CORNELL BELCHER:
Right? And, listen, last time –
CHUCK TODD:
It's not a lot of people, but that matters in our –
CORNELL BELCHER:
Right.
CHUCK TODD:
– polarized environment.
CORNELL BELCHER:
And last time a Democrat won Alabama, what happened? Right? So.
CHUCK TODD:
Okay.
DANIELLE PLETKA:
Herschel Walker? I have absolutely no idea. No. I mean, you were telling me before. It's impossible to know. There's no crystal ball. I do think Herschel Walker has a good chance, and I don't think anybody cares about morality anymore. It’s – perhaps is worthy of much more serious than a 30-second conversation. But the fact that we don't care – and I know we do – but the fact that we as a nation don't care about this anymore by two-thirds majority says something not simply about our candidates, not simply about our system, but about our democracy as well.
CHUCK TODD:
Well, and this is the question of I don't know how we truly are brought together, because if the two parties think the other side is a threat to the nation, you know – the whole point of politics is to avoid violence. Sometimes you wonder how we're going to do it.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Right. Well, and that's what makes the Warnock ad so notable, this attempt to almost bend over backwards to look like he can reach across the aisle. He was asked at the debate if he would support President Biden if he runs again in 2024. He wouldn't answer that question.
CHUCK TODD:
That felt slippery. That felt like a politician.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well. And, again, being on the ground in Georgia, Chuck, I can tell you the voters didn't like that answer because they didn't buy it. And so I think there's –
CHUCK TODD:
They didn't believe it. Yeah.
KRISTEN WELKER:
– an authenticity factor as well that voters are very tuned into.
ASHLEY PARKER:
And there's also a somewhat cynical calculation. And, again, it's not just one party, but you look at, for instance, with former President Trump. You had Republicans, you had evangelicals sort of hold their nose and vote for him and say, "I like what – I don't like how he's lived his life, but I like what he's going to do for the courts." And he ended up appointing three justices. That is how Roe got overturned, and that's a calculation when we get to the morality that a lot of voters in both parties are willing to make.
CHUCK TODD:
But isn't this bringing about basically a worse type of candidate? It now opens the door for them to go, "Why not? I can run." We're going to populate our elected offices with a lot of morally compromised officials.
CORNELL BELCHER:
Yes. And we're seeing it. It's happening all over the country. One of the things I do want to go back to is level set for a moment around Biden. Because I worked for a guy who a lot of people in 2010 didn't want him either, right? And you go back to 2006, a lot of folks didn't want George Bush either on the campaign trail. And I think you're going to have 10 million jobs. You're going to have inflation going in the right place. You're going to have more manufacturing jobs. I think his arc, he's going to have something to run on well in 2024.
CHUCK TODD:
And if it's a Republican Congress, maybe something to run against.
CORNELL BELCHER:
Yeah, exactly.
CHUCK TODD:
Well, we've seen that before as well. All right. Before we go, we're pretty excited to tell you about the 2022 Meet the Press Film Festival. It's at DOC NYC. That's right. We're going to New York, baby. On November 15th, we're showcasing the best-in-class short documentaries of the year in New York City. So if we can make it there, this film festival makes it everywhere. Tickets are on sale now. Scan the QR code right there. You can find more at NBCNews.com/MTPFilm. That's all we have for today. Thanks for watching. Come on, Packers. Beat the Washington Football Team. We'll be back next week, because if it's Sunday, it's Meet the Press.