updated 1/19/2006 10:37:54 AM ET 2006-01-19T15:37:54

Guest: Jossy Mansur, John Q. Kelly, Art Wood, James Whitaker, Vito

Colucci, Jack Cote; Betty Kresin

RITA COSBY, MSNBC ANCHOR, LIVE & DIRECT:  Good evening, everybody.  For the first time tonight the wife of a honeymooner who apparently went overboard on his honeymoon cruise confronts the cruise line as we get exclusive access to this investigation.

And these attractive, successful attorneys seem to have everything before they vanished. One of their bodies has been found. But where is the another one? The shocking case is coming up.

But first, could thereby a new lead in the search for missing Alabama teenager Natalee Holloway? The answer could very well be yes, as Aruban police search sand dunes along Aruba's northeast coast.

The island's deputy police chief now says credible information lead to this latest hunt for clues.  These sand dunes could be the very last place where Natalee Holloway was seen alive by three young men previously held by Aruban authorities in her disappearance.

Tonight, we also have new information about a gag order in this case. LIVE & DIRECT right now, Jossy Mansur with Aruba's “Diario” newspaper. Also here is Holloway family attorney John Q. Kelly.

Jossy, starting with you, what do you know about this search? What was sort of the tip to go back to the sand dunes?

JOSSY MANSUR, “DIARIO” NEWSPAPER:  The tip hasn't been revealed to us.  There is a tip that one witness gave to the police that started this whole search at the area of the dunes. They have been searching yesterday.  I think they were searching today.  They still have about 20 more hours of searches to do.

COSBY:   Jossy, you say one witness, who is this witness? When did this information come forward? Is it a new witness?

MANSUR:  It's a witness the police recently interviewed. He gave an alibi, the alibi didn't work out. So, that started the police on this new search of the sand dunes. In the meantime, Tim and his people, are searching the oceans for a fish trap.

COSBY:   You know, Jossy, you say he gave an alibi. Are you suggesting that police were talking to him as a possible suspect or having some involvement in the case?

MANSUR:  The police did talk to quite a range of Joran's friends in the last few weeks. One of them apparently turned out to be of interest to them. They questioned him further. He gave some kind of an inkling or clue that they believe in that the girl was buried or is buried somewhere in the dunes.

COSBY:   That's really significant. John, let me go to you.



COSBY:   John, what have you heard? Hearing now this was a friend—this is one of the things I was hearing a lot what we were down in Aruba, that his friends could have some information or connection—are you getting a sense, as a representative of the family, that there's a representative here?

KELLY:  Yes, I talked Karen Janssen (ph) yesterday and Gerold Dompig today, and as I understand it this is a new tip that came in within the last week. They felt it was fairly credible and it was very detailed. They would have been remiss not to follow through on it.

What they're doing it they're going to search the entire sand dune area with their probes, their metal probes.  And hopefully there was some involvement, today we're trying to coordinate getting the FBI in there with cadaver dogs immediately afterwards to go through the turned up sand and soil.

COSBY:   And you know, John, the fact that they are using cadaver dogs, and the thing we heard from Jossy that may be buried.  Obviously, that's an ominous sign, but are you getting inkling, again, as Jossy was suggesting, maybe she was buried there?

KELLY:  Well, yes. I mean, some of the information was confidential but there has been some very important information in terms of activity on the sand dunes, both that night when they were up at the lighthouse, which is directly across from the sand dunes there, and some observations that were made immediately afterwards, the next day by certain people involved in the initial search for Natalee.  So, it's always been a particular place of interest all along.  And I'm glad they're doing a very thorough search now. 

COSBY:   In fact, both of you, I want to show a little clip.  Because I was down there with private investigator Art Wood.  I was in Aruba many, many months ago.  But at that point, he was talking about the sand dunes.  And talking about what may have happened down there.  We want to show you that.


COSBY:   What are some of the theories of what happened here in the dunes that night.

ART WOOD, PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR:  Well, we know that the boys claimed to have come out here around the lighthouse.  We also know that the brothers say Joran was molesting her in the back seat of the car.  Joran, himself, claims to have left her on the beach asleep.  There are a lot of theories in this case.  One of them is that this girl overdosed and died and they buried her in the dunes. 

We heard that early on in this case. We've tried to follow every lead that we could.  And I think that it's very strange that belt pops out of the sand, right here, where somebody says that they helped bury a girl. 


COSBY:   You know, Jossy, that's a pretty big area, isn't it, that they're checking?  The dunes are pretty high?

JOSSY:  Yes, this is a pretty big area. I think Art Wood has narrowed it down to a place where he did find a belt that was buried there.  The belt was given over to the police.  But we haven't heard anything more belt it just simply disappeared. 

COSBY:   In fact, I think they were saying that the belt was too old to be tested?  Which Art would have physically looked at the belt, said it looked like there was still some good stuff on there to be able to at least determine whether or not it was connected.

What do you know about the gag order, too, Jossy.  There is apparently a gag order on Chief Dompig.  And I want to show what we've learned, is that Aruba's attorney general issued the gag order. Deputy Police Chief Gerold Dompig and Prosecutor Karen Janssen aren't allowed to talk about the case. Why are they trying to shut them up, Jossy?

MANSUR:  I have no idea, but the gag order is a reality.  I've heard about this. I've known about this gag order for some time now and they are strictly forbidden to talk to anyone in the media to begin with, and anyone else outside of the investigative team.

COSBY:   That's very interesting. Because Dompig was on our show saying, he believes the three boys are guilty as hell.

John, have you seen Joran Van Der Sloot's—it looks like this is sort of his web site, which is what a lot of people believe. On it, there are interesting pictures and I think some troubling things. If you look at his blog, it—one of the pages—there's a picture, on top of it, there's a caption, no body, no case making fun of the situation. You can see it there with the picture of him with his family with his mother and father. You know, how disturbing is this? John?

KELLY:  It's really disturbing. And as I understand it that's a statement that's originally attributed to his father, when he advised him.  The father, Paul Van Der Sloot, who is now in court looking for monetary damages, which is shameful to say the least.

But apparently he got them lawyered up. He told them not to use their e-mails, not to use their cell phones, and to get a consistent story and assured them, that if there was no body found, there'd nobody case.  And from all suggestions it appears he was at least complicit in the conspiracy to cover up whatever happened that night.

COSBY:   It's very disturbing. John and Jossy, thank you very much for the new information.

Again, Jossy is saying a friend of Joran's is apparently what led authorities to go back. He said there's credible information, they are checking the sand dunes. We'll keep you posted if anything breaks on that development on that case.

Also, everybody, if you'd like to look at Joran Van Der Sloot's bizarre pictures yourself, we'll have a link to his page on our web site, that is going to start tomorrow morning. Be sure to go onto rita.msnbc.com.  We'll have the link up tomorrow morning.

Well, the latest round of searches for Natalee Holloway are in the

sand dunes of Aruba. Divers are still planning to take to the waters off

Aruba, in the coming weeks to look for clues. LIVE & DIRECT tonight is

underwater search specialist James Whitaker; he just got back from a few

days in Aruba

James, I want to start with this new information about the sand dunes. You were talking to authorities down there. What did they tell you as sort of what is leading them back to the dunes? Did they tell you a friend of Joran's was giving new clues?

JAMES WHITAKER, UNDERWATER SEARCH SPECAILIST:  No, they didn't elaborate on what the clue was. They just said there was good, credible information to lead them there. And we actually found out about it after they were on already there working the area.

COSBY:   When did they start it, James? How long have they been out there? Two days? How long?

WHITAKER:  It's been about two days now, yeah.

COSBY:   You've seen the site for yourself. Sort of describe it for our viewers. I was out there, too.

WHITAKER:  Well, this is a volcanic island. There's lots of big boulders and big piles of rocks.  And there's wind blowing all the time in one direction. It piles and drifts the sand. It's pretty deep in areas.

COSBY:   You know, I understand that your team offered Aruban authorities your equipment. You've got pretty good state-of-the-art equipment. What was their response? I understand they were a little tepid.

WHITAKER:  Well, that's true. They never took the offer seriously from my take on it. But we were talking about using ground penetrating radar which is more appropriate for this area, because the cadaver dogs will be somewhat limited with high winds.  They have to get their nose right in there—

COSBY:   What do you think, was it because you're an outsider, James?

What was the reason?

WHITAKER:  Well, I don't have a take on that. I don't know what—why they're standoffish. Maybe they may take our offer up after they're finished doing what they're—what they have planned there with the cadaver dogs, and using all the searching people they have there. Maybe they will use the ground penetrating radar at the end of it, but we have no indication of that at this point.

COSBY:   Now, separately I know you're looking at the waters. You'll be checking about five miles off the coast there. Why is that area so key?  Explain to our viewers—I was there. It's right near the fisherman's hut.  Right where the cage was missing, there was a knife, when the hut was broken into that night when Natalee vanished. Describe why that area seems to be key and Dompig, the police chief is leading you there.

WHITAKER:  The other story is, as you say, the missing trap, which is a steel crab trap of sufficient size. It's larger than traps we use in this country. And it's big enough for her to be put into and taken out to sea and dumped. And sea has been searched out to 150 feet of water depth. But the equipment they had down there, that's all the deeper they could get.  Three to five miles out we're approaching the deepest part of 1,000 feet. I have the equipment to go out and search in that area. That's what the plan is.

COSBY:   We wish you a lot of luck. Please keep us posted, Jim, thank you very much.

Still ahead, everybody. Eminem and Courtney Love are two of the wildest celebrities we can think of. Coming up, her mother and his grandmother are going to join us live. That's right.  And that's not all on tonight's show. Take a look.


COSBY (voice over):  Still ahead, the bride who lost her house her honeymoon cruise confronts the cruise company for the first time. But can she answer the question what really happened?

Plus, the man trying to solve the mystery gives us exclusive access to his private investigation. Can police thought this successful couple's disappearance was an accident. Now, the mystery is turned upside down.  Tonight, many believe someone is to blame.

And talk about killing yourself to get ahead. This guy is throwing himself, body and soul, into an acting gig. Again and again and again. He joins me LIVE & DIRECT—well, he joins me direct, it's coming up.


COSBY:   In the case of missing honeymooner George Smith, it's attracted national headlines, especially the mystery into his disappearance deepens. Story has even captivated the likes of Oprah Winfrey, who today devoted her entire show to the case. She was speaking to George's new bride, Jennifer, about why she can't remember what she was doing when her husband went missing.


OPRAH WINRFREY:   Is it a fact that you had to be carried in a wheelchair because you were so—


WINFREY:  Out of it. And you were out of it from drinking, not because


SMITH:  We have no idea—I—well, we were definitely drinking, but not to the extent that something this wild happens.

WINFREY:  That you wouldn't remember.

SMITH:  Both of us, on the same night. I have no recollection of that evening on the same night my husband is killed or—

GAYLE KING:  I mean, Oprah they both -- .


COSBY:   And joining us now talk more about the mystery is private investigator Vito Colucci.

Vito, what do you make of the fact she says she can't remember what happened that night?

VITO COLUCCI, PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR:  Well, one of the questions, even before that Rita, she was asked what she was drinking. She did answer that she doesn't remember.  I find that a little bit confusing. I think you're going to remember for a good part of the night, until you get into an intoxicated state, what you started off with. And especially the way the night ended up. I think you'll remember that all of your life.

COSBY:   That's a great point. Vito, what about the fact that she's been so composed during all of these interviews. She did an interview with Joe Scarborough, did this one with Oprah. A lot of people find it maybe a little too composed?

COLUCCI:  It could be, Rita. Don't forget, this is a woman that didn't speak for several months. A lot of time has gone by. We don't know. We can only speculate on that part, Rita.

COSBY:   Let me show more. This is Gayle King, Oprah's friend, and my pal, too, who is also doing this interview with Jennifer. I want to show another clip and get to you respond, Vito.


SMITH:  Speculate—people are going to slam me either way. If I say, you know, oh, maybe I was drinking too much. I'll get slammed, I'm the drunk bride. If I say, well maybe I was drugged. They'll say, oh, she's just making excuses for herself.


COSBY:   Vito, what do you think? Is it possible she may have been drugged? Maybe she wasn't drinking at much at a certain point, and then someone slipped something in her drink and that's what changed everything for her?

COLUCCI:  It could be a possibility as remote as it is, Rita. If somebody wanted to or eyeballed George, and wanted to get her out of the picture.  That could be a possibility. Do I believe it? Maybe about 10 percent really.

COSBY:   It's interesting, as you pointed out, she doesn't remember what she was drinking earlier in the night. Everyone says they were drinking quite a bit. Jennifer also talked about today the question she was asked in the polygraph. Obviously, standard procedure, FBI questions the wife, and everybody involved in the case. Here's what she had to say about that.


SMITH:  They asked me if I was in the room. Had I seen him go over board. Did I get into a fight with him. Did I have doubts about my marrying George?  Did I have second thoughts?  Everything you could possibly imagine.  And the answer was, no. No. No. No.


COSBY:   Vito, do we know if the FBI also did a polygraph to the Russian guys. Also the student, who was last seen with George?

COLUCCI:  I would think, knowing the FBI, especially the Connecticut office of it, that they had done that have done that—if they've agreed to take one.  That's another thing, too.  If they're lawyered up and they say they're not going to take one. It is a lot more difficult.  And people don't realize with a polygraph, it is not a whole slew of questions.  It is only a certain amount of questions that they are asked.

COSBY:   You know, Vito, today we heard for the first time, somewhat an apology from Royal Caribbean. I want to play that and then get your response because you've talked to the family quite a bit.


ADAM GOLDSTEIN, ROYAL CARIBBEAN PRESIDENT:  I am sorry. I say that on behalf of 40,000 people at Royal Caribbean. That we were not able to render you as much assistance and comfort as you would like to have had on that terrible day. I'm sorry about that.


COSBY:   Vito, what do you make of it?  Instead of saying, I'm sorry you feel bad as opposed to I'm sorry I did anything wrong.

COLUCCI:  You picked right up on that, Rita. They never apologize.  They always say I'm sorry that you don't feel this way or I'm sorry we couldn't satisfy you. They never say, I'm sorry that we didn't supply the security officers that we promised you or things of that nature. It's never an apology. Maybe they're worried about the civil suit or whatever. They never give an out and out apology.

COSBY:   It's interesting they are very careful the way they phrase things. Vito, stick with us. Because we want to move on and get you on in a second.

One of the best forensic experts in the country will travel to the crime scene on Monday to see for himself what clues are still left on board that ship. Dr. Henry Lee was brought into the case by Jennifer Hagel and her attorney.

Tonight, we're going to take you inside his lab at the University of New Haven in Connecticut to get an exclusive preview of what he hopes to find out that might crack this case.

DR. HENRY LEE, FORENSICS EXPERT:  This goes to consider as a cold case now, because six months now.  Still have no direct answer. The crime scene is no longer there. A cold case, we usually follow five or six different ways to investigate. We as scientists we only go back to the crime scene, try to find out what happened, how it happened, what the sequence of events.

So basically, we're going to look at the room.  Even though the carpet is gone, the room is still the same room.  So, we are going to look at any trace evidence that remains on the ceiling, on the wall.  We can use chemical tests, or we can use instrumental analysis to see any blood stains or biological material.

If no carpet or carpet being shampooed or washed, the stains become very diluted, however, with the light source of chemical that we can spray on the surface the chemical will react with the component of the hemoglobin and form a color. So based on that information, we can reconstruct what did happen in that room.

With an ordinary light source, you probably wouldn't see it. With a forensic light source, you can see clearly. There are some stains washed in this location. There are some blood stains in that location.

Generally, we can see biological stains on the surface. We plan to bring in mannequins. We will let the mannequin fall. We put weight inside the mannequin. We want to estimate about the same weight. If someone sits on the railing, all right? If they fall off the railing, then we want to see where more likely it landed. What would cause indentations on the canopy?

If someone picks up the dummy, and throws the dummy, what more likely the location is the dummy going to land? The canopy, of course, we'll have to measure the width and the length, to understand how big the canopy is. If someone threw a person out, how far will they go? If someone falls off the railing how far we expect to see them falling?

They give me two hours limit.  If everything works smoothly, we should be able to conduct some basic analysis or measurement.

I was moved by the story. The family has been on hold for six months now. The family needs the answer. As forensic scientists, we have a professional obligation to help the family and find out the scientific fact what did happen.  What did happen to George Smith?  If Jennifer Smith is she involved in that? Is this really an accident or some foul play? The family needs some answers. That's how I got involved.


COSBY:   That some interesting stuff.  Let's bring back in private investigator Vito Colucci.

Vito, it's fascinating. He'll put weights in that dummy to mock the weight that George Smith was.  What's the first thing would you do? Would you test that? Would you go to the room? What area would you focus on?

COLUCCI:  Yes, I think that's a great idea, what he's doing.  With the exact weight—

COSBY:   I do, too.  That's incredible.  I think it's neat.

COLUCCI:  Yes, the exact weight of George.  Now, just remember Royal Caribbean still has to OK him doing that, OK?  The dummy part of it.  They've only given him two hours.  So, hopefully they'll let him do that testing done.

What I'd love to see Dr. Lee is going to be able to determine if the canopy was painted over. I think that's going to be very big. He said he'd be able to determine that.

COSBY:   That would be a bombshell if he can prove it.  Because they came on our show and said it was just washed over.

You know, Vito, real quick. You hit it on the head; two hours. You know, as an investigator, why are they only getting two hours access? Why, you know, why Henry Lee and others, can they do a thorough investigation and are you stunned that they are not getting unlimited access?

COLUCCI:  Yes, I am, but the information I got today is that the boat is just coming in. They only have a couple of hours, still I guess it goes back out again.  But you know, a man like Henry Lee, only Henry Lee could work with a two-hour time frame. No one else can. I'm sure he'd want a lot more time than that I've been on cases with him, and I've been on cases against him, and he's the best.

COSBY:   He absolutely is. We'll hopefully get some answers starting soon. Thank you, Vito, very much. We appreciate you coming on.

COLUCCI:  Thank you.

And we invited Royal Caribbean to come on our program tonight.  Instead, they just offered us the following statement, we just got in a little while ago. It says, quote, “Royal Caribbean has released all of the relevant facts within its direct knowledge regarding George Smith's disappearance with the exception of certain information the FBI has asked the company not to disclose.” 

It further says, “We at Royal Caribbean continue to extend our deepest sympathy to the families, and will continue to cooperate with the FBI in its investigation.”

Again, a statement just coming in from Royal Caribbean. They're also encouraging people to log onto their web site to read their account of what happened. You can see the web site there, royalcaribbean.com.

And we'll keep on the top of this case from the beginning to end. We plan to be in Miami when Dr. Lee takes his investigation and that dummy and all his other tools on board the cruise liner, to find out what, indeed, he did discover.

Also ahead tonight, this Michigan couple who seemed to have it all vanished from a boating trip. Was it a tragic accident or something much more sinister? Will investigators ever know what happened in the waters of Lake Huron?

Later this man is literally putting his life on the line for a movie role. This time it looks like it's about to pay off. He's playing dead, and he's going to join me live next. We've got interesting pictures. We'll show you more coming up.


COSBY:   Now to a tragic mystery on the shores of Michigan's Lake Huron. Two attractive successful attorneys seemingly in love disappeared during a boating trip five months ago. Lana Stempian's (ph) body was found two weeks later, her husband, Chuck Rutherford, is still missing.  Dateline's NBC's Chris Hanson has the story.


CHRIS HANSON, NBC CORRESPONDENT:  Friday August 12 was an ugly morning on the waters of northern Lake Huron.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  The boat was bobbing around like a cork. I said, I think the boat is in trouble.

HANSON:  It was Sea's Life, Lana Stempian's boat. Just an hour earlier, her father had called the Coast Guard to report the boat overdue.  The family hadn't heard from Lana or her boyfriend Chuck Rutherford since 2 o'clock Thursday afternoon, when Lana called her Aunt Pat in Florida. 

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  She was in very good spirits. She said she was about two hours away from Mackinaw Island. 

HANSON:  But the couple never made it.

JIM RENKES, COAST GUARD:  The boat was empty.  There was nobody on it.

HANSON:  Not only was Lana's boat abandoned, it was way off course.  It's engine idling in neutral, the stereo still playing.  Just adrift in the middle of the lake.

HANSON (on camera):  Was there anything on board the boat that indicate foul play?

SGT. ROBIN SEXTON, MICHIGAN STATE POLICE:  No, there was nothing untoward, unusual about the boat's condition at all. 

HANSON (voice over):  The Coast Guard launched a massive search and rescue effort.  But it was 12 days before Lana's body was discovered on this rocky shoal in Hammond Bay.  She was wearing nothing but her jewelry. 

(on-screen):  Did it disturb you that she was found unclothed? 

TAMMY SWANSON, LANA'S COUSIN:  Very disturbing.  Why was she naked? 

HANSEN:  Was it an accident, or was it a crime?  And where was Chuck? 

Chris Hansen, NBC. 


COSBY:  And joining me now is attorney Jack Cote, who represents the family of the missing woman.  Mr. Cote, why do you think it's foul play?  Is that where you're headed? 

JACK COTE, FAMILY ATTORNEY FOR MISSING WOMAN:  I definitely think there's foul play.  I disagree vehemently with the lead investigator from the state police that there was no evidence of foul play; there is ample evidence of foul play. 

COSBY:  What do you point to, sir?  What do you think are the key things?  I mean, it certainly sounds—you know, the fact that she had no clothes on, I mean, certainly sounds very suspicious. 

COTE:  Well, one of the—it would be easy to conclude that this was an accidental drowning were it not for some of the physical evidence that was found on the boat itself, evidence that was available to anybody investigating the case.  I have here a somewhat identical shoe to the...

COSBY:  Could you hold that up?  Hold that up a little more, sir? 

COTE:  OK.  This is a similar jogging shoe to what was found onboard that belonged to Lana Stempien.  Embedded in the sole of the shoe is a knob similar to what I am holding, the knob set into the bracket of what's called a global positioning system.  I have an illustration here. 

There's a u-shaped bracket mounted on the dash of the boat.  There are two knobs with threaded screws on either side that fit into the GPS or the global positioning system.  One of those knobs is missing and was found embedded, like this, in this position, in the sole of her shoe. 

COSBY:  What do you think, Mr. Cote, could have happened for it to get embedded there? 

COTE:  Evidence of a struggle would be one thing.  This knob has a thread on it but no point.  If you took a hammer and tried to pound this into a hard, thick sole, you would have extreme difficulty doing so.  That's one evidence to me of foul play. 

In addition, on the back side of her shoe—along here—there is a tear.  If you were to take your hands, and if you had pliers in each hand, and you tried to tear this shoe, you would have extreme difficulty doing that.  So this is a sign of violence and of struggle. 

COSBY:  Mr. Cote, let me get to the obvious question now.  Was she having any problems with her husband?  Or do you believe somebody else may have been onboard that boat, her boyfriend, rather?

COTE:  Yes, they were not husband and wife.  They were living together, boyfriend.

There's two possibilities.  Foul play by the other individual on the boat or foul play as a result of another boat becoming involved. 

COSBY:  Is there something that the boyfriend could have gained by doing this, maybe staging his own disappearance?  Have you looked into—is there some sort of policy?  Or did she find out something?  Was she going to break up with him?  Was there any motive here possible? 

COTE:  The key to solving the case, in my judgment, lies in the personal relationship between Lana Stempien and Chuck Rutherford.  We have sworn statements from two lady friends of Lana somewhat of a premonition, if you will, taken several remarks that she made to her lady friends several weeks before the boat trip.  “If something happens to me, check out Chuck.” 

COSBY:  Ooh.  Mr. Cote, thank you very much.  We'd love to have you back on and spend some more time on this case.  It sounds there's a lot of fishy things here.  Thank you very much.  And thank you for the demonstration on the shoe.  Certainly sounds like something did happen on that ship.  Thank you. 

And still ahead, what is it really like when your son or daughter becomes one of the most talked-about celebrities in the world?  Eminem's grandmother and Courtney Love's mother tell me what it's like when your relative is in the limelight, the good and the bad. 

And later, this guy had dreams of making it on the big screen.  Then he turned up dead, dead at home, dead all over New York.  And tonight, he's going to turn up dead in our studio. 


It is coming up.  You do not want to miss it. 


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  Hi, welcome to the Carnegie Deli.  Can I take your order, please? 



COSBY:  Now to the tough job of being related to a big-time celebrity.  From drug problems to courtroom outbursts, it's hard to be Courtney Love when it comes to living like a rock star.  She has battled the ups and downs of drug addiction.  Her late husband, Kurt Cobain, committed suicide.  And the court has just returned full custody of her daughter to her, all why acting and leading her band named Hole.

But now the side that you don't see.  Her mother, Linda Carroll, has written a very poignant memoir entitled, “Her Mother's Daughter.”  The book also explores Carroll's quest to find her own biological mother.  And Linda Carroll, Courtney Love's mother, joins me now live in the studio. 

Good to have you here. 


COSBY:  Why did you decide to write this book?  Now, why do you think it was important?

CARROLL:  Well, I think, at the time of my life that I'm at—I'm 61

·         is a time where I'm really reflecting, looking back.  And I have been so far away for so many years from the chaos and the disruption of my early life, that it was a time that I could do it without feeling afraid to look at some of those early things. 

COSBY:  And be able to—the time has helped, in terms of doing this?

CARROLL:  Right, yes. 

COSBY:  You know, you had some very poignant things.  It's a tough thing, because obviously it's been a tough road...


COSBY:  ... with you and your daughter.  And you had a quote.  I want to show this.  You write in your book, “My daughter's rages were out of control” --  this is when she was young—“terrifying and utterly irrational, as though she had no internal compass that let her know when she had gone too far.”

How old was she when you were writing this?  Because we see her now doing the same thing.

CARROLL:  Well, you know what's interesting is that Courtney is the same now in so many ways that she was when she was a child, 2 years old, 3 years old. 

COSBY:  So you're not surprised when you see the emotional outbursts in court and all these other things? 

CARROLL:  No.  And, in fact, I see that with all my children, that they have—they really are now so much of who they were when they were little. 

And the best of Courtney, the very best of her, what people love about her, was there.  And (INAUDIBLE) parts that are the hardest about her.  So that's one of the parts, is how quickly she changed her moods, how upset she would get, and how incredibly creative and the part of her that was always the star. 


COSBY:  You could even see it back then?

CARROLL:  I could see it.  I remember her saying, “Why did you have more children?  You should have just had me, because I should be a star.”  And she became a star.  And I was so glad when that happened. 

COSBY:  Now, her husband, her late husband, Kurt Cobain...


COSBY:  ... what did you think of their marriage?  What did you think of him?

CARROLL:  What I experienced—I can only tell what you it was like to be around him and what it was like to be around them.  I don't know anything about went on between them when I wasn't there, of course, but I thought he—first of all, he was a fabulous father. 

And the way he held my granddaughter, if you want to get to a grandmother's heart, hold your baby the way he held her, because he was a marvelous, gentle father. 

And he and Courtney were sizzling together.  I remember sitting one time in a car listening to them in the front seat, and they didn't stop talking.  In fact, I think—I have never seen Courtney attached to anyone the way that she attached to Kurt.  They were so alike in ways that I still think about that.  And what a great loss that was for her. 

COSBY:  Absolutely.  A loss for a lot of people, who were a big fan of his music, too. 

CARROLL:  Yes, right, right.

COSBY:  You know, you talked about your granddaughter, her daughter, who she just recently got custody of again, returned. 

CARROLL:  Right.

COSBY:  How is the granddaughter doing?  How is she doing?

CARROLL:  Well, I think she's a marvelous person.  Like all of us, you know, she'll have things in her life that she'll have to work at and she'll have to overcome.  But she's got such great resources.  She is a really fabulous girl.  She's smart, and she's quick, and she's generous.  And I think that she is going to be a great surprise for everybody in the best way. 

COSBY:  Real quick.  What kind of relationship do you have with your daughter now? 

CARROLL:  I haven't talked to Courtney in a long time.


COSBY:  Are you sad about it? 

CARROLL:  I'm sad about it.  I'm sad that it's not better, but it's also—wouldn't have been to talk with her the last two years.  They've been so hard for her.  And I think she needed all of her energy to get herself better, and I understand that she is.  And good for her.

COSBY:  Linda Carroll, thank you very much for being with us. 

CARROLL:  You're welcome, Rita.

COSBY:  We appreciate it.

CARROLL:  Thanks so much for having me.

COSBY:  Interesting book, and a very powerful book.  Thank you very much.

CARROLL:  OK.  I'm so glad you liked it.

COSBY:  Thank you very much. 

And rapper Eminem, another big celebrity who is giving marriage another try.  Eminem and his ex-wife, Kim Mathers, ended their tumultuous marriage back in 2001.  But the couple remarried last weekend in Michigan. 

Joining us now LIVE & DIRECT is Eminem's grandmother, Betty Kresin. 

Betty, did you go to the wedding?  Did any family members go? 

BETTY KRESIN, EMINEM'S GRANDMOTHER:  No, none of us were invited. 

COSBY:  Were you surprised about that? 

KRESIN:  I wasn't surprised.  I thought it was kind of a payback time. 

COSBY:  Payback for what? 

KRESIN:  Well, the first time Kim and Marshall married, they married here in St. Joseph's.  And none of Kim's family were here.  So Kim's mother was very angry.  And so, this time, none of our family were there. 

COSBY:  Even though it's family, and this is a marriage.  What do you think of the fact that they remarried?  You know, we heard so many—people were stunned, because they seemed to just hate each other when they broke up. 

KRESIN:  I wonder if it's not one of those, “I love you, don't bother me.  I can't live without you.”  I thought he should have signed a prenuptial. 

COSBY:  Because? 

KRESIN:  Well, Kim took everything last time, at least she took half. 

COSBY:  What do you—why do you think they got remarried?  What do you think the reason was they came back together? 

KRESIN:  Well, definitely for Hailey.  Definitely for Hailey. 

COSBY:  For their daughter? 

KRESIN:  Yes. 

COSBY:  What is his relationship like with his mother, your daughter? 

KRESIN:  It's not good; it's very bad. 

COSBY:  And why is that?  What happened there? 

KRESIN:  Nobody really knows.  Marshall stayed at home or was in and out of his home until he was 27 years old.  So nobody really knows why. 

When he started to get famous, he demeaned her in some of his music.  And she asked him to stop.  And I think they had a little discussion that ended up in court.  And she's tried so much to make up, to bring all of this to a stop, because she's very ill, and she can't reach him. 

COSBY:  Does he know that she's very ill? 

KRESIN:  I don't know if he does or not.  I put it out in all the newspapers and tell everybody I can. 

COSBY:  But you have no way to kind of—you're his grandmother, and his mother can't get through to him? 


COSBY:  What's going on?  Does he have people around him who are blocking it?

KRESIN:  Yes.  Yes.  He has all his security.  And you can't get through.  You leave it with your security numbers, and it's up to them to tell Marshall.  And half the time, you know, so many people call and pretend they're his mother, his grandmother, all kind of family.  After Marshall got famous, we had family coming out of woodwork like he wrote about. 

COSBY:  You know, what is your relationship like with your grandson, Eminem?  And are you worried that you won't see him again? 

KRESIN:  Excuse me.  What did you say?  I'm sorry.

COSBY:  What's your relationship like with him and with Eminem, with your grandson, and are you worried that you won't see him again?

KRESIN:  I'll see him again someday.  But right now, I know none of us is going to see him.  I heard someone say on one of the interviews that I said he was brain-dead or was brain-washed by Kim.  No, I did not say that.  I said that he's so much in love with her, he can't see.  You know, he wants Hailey.  He wants his marriage to work.  Anything Kim says—Kim wears the pants in the house. 

COSBY:  Not the tough rapper, huh? 


And what about the kids, too?  How are they holding up? 

KRESIN:  You mean Marshall's kids? 

COSBY:  Yes, yes, the three children. 

KRESIN:  Oh, fine, fine.  They're very spoiled.  And he loves them to death.  And they get anything they want. 

COSBY:  Well, good.  I'm glad that they're taken care of. 

Betty, thank you very much.  We'd love to have you back on again.  We appreciate it.  And I hope he gets word, especially about his mom.  Thank you very much. 

KRESIN:  Thank you.  God bless.

COSBY:  Thank you.

And there's a lot coming up here on MSNBC tonight.  Let's check in now with Joe Scarborough first for a preview of what's coming up on “SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY”—Joe? 

JOE SCARBOROUGH, MSNBC HOST:  Hey, thank so much, Rita.

As everybody knows, obviously, American journalist Jill Carroll is facing a deadline over in Iraq.  There's a possibility that she could be executed by Iraqi terrorists. 

Well, the side of the story that a lot of people don't know about is the reason why she may be in trouble.  It has to do with our so-called allies, the French, the Germans, the Italians, who all deal with these thugs.  And because they pay ransom, they put Americans in jeopardy when our government refuses to back down.  It's the—we're going take you to the story behind the story here, while, of course, all of us are hoping and praying that this young lady gets out of Iraq alive—Rita? 

COSBY:  You betcha.  Thank you.  We'll be watching very much.

And, Tucker Carlson, what's ahead on tonight's “SITUATION,” Tucker?

TUCKER CARLSON, MSNBC HOST:  I'm still reeling from the news that Eminem spoils his kids and gets boxed around by his wife.  I learn it all on your show, Rita, I have to say. 

COSBY:  I know.  You know what was so sad, Tucker, is that he doesn't

·         his mother is dying of cancer and he doesn't know this.  How sad it that? 

CARLSON:  Well, it's also pretty sad he gets boxed around by his wife. 


We will also have the latest on the Jill Carroll kidnapping.  We're going to talk to one of her friends just back from three years in Baghdad. 

Also, there are haircuts—and I know you know this, Rita, because you have people on your show who fall into this category—there are haircuts that has are so bad, they're criminal.  Great Britain has just passed a law that acknowledges this fact.  You can actually now go to jail for committing assault by haircut.  It's a great development, as far as I'm concerned.  And we're going to get into what it might mean for the United States. 

COSBY:  Sounds very poignant.  We only have good haircuts.  That's the standard on our show. 



COSBY:  All right, thanks, Tucker, very much.  We'll be watching tonight.

CARLSON:  Thanks, Rita.

COSBY:  And still ahead, everybody, what in the world is this guy doing?  Let's see if we can see—there he is—at the bottom of the stairs, not too far away from me. 


No, it's not one of my co-workers or my boss here at LIVE & DIRECT.  We'll bring him back.  It's not Tucker or Joe, either.  We're going to bring him back, dead or alive, coming up next. 




UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  Hi.  Welcome to Carnegie Deli.  Can I take your order, please? 



COSBY:  Well, many actors are dying to get into show business, but none of them are going as far as our next guest, who's here with my live.  He is trying to make it big by playing dead.  We're joined now by Chuck Lamb of the quite-popular Web site, DeadBodyGuy.com. 

When I heard this idea, I went, “What?”  How did you come up with this idea? 

CHUCK LAMB, DEADBODYGUY.COM:  Well, everybody wants to be in a movie or TV show sometime in their life.  It's everybody's dream. 

COSBY:  A secret fantasy?

LAMB:  And it's everybody's.  I mean, and so I just knew I couldn't go to Hollywood and say, “Hey, I'm Chuck Lamb.  I'm a father of six.  And I want to be in a movie just one time to fulfill my dream,” because they wouldn't let me.  So I had to think of something a little unconventional, a little something outside the box.  And it seems like it's doing pretty well.  It's...


COSBY:  It's definitely fascinating.  In fact, here—I'm showing some—this is today.  My producer, Andy Dallas (ph), went out with you today...

LAMB:  Yes, he did. 

COSBY:  ... following you around New York City on a quite wet and windy day.  Walk us through some of the places that you went.  What are you doing here?

LAMB:  This is Times Square.  And, oh, it was raining so bad.  And I just jumped up.  I just—and the funny part is that he got—what it said underneath me.  It said, “It's a dirty job,” and I'm laying on top of the trash can. 

COSBY:  What was the reaction—as we're looking at these shots—there's tons of people in Times Square, right?

LAMB:  Oh, yes.  One guy asked, “Is he OK?”  But then he just kept walking. 


COSBY:  A typical New Yorker, huh?

LAMB:  Yes, that's true.  This is the shoe shine place.  I really appreciate you guys taking me out today.  It was hilarious. 

COSBY:  Now, what does your family think of this? 

LAMB:  I have six children.  Four of them's grown, and they all just love it.  Of course, they're used to their dad being a little unconventional.  So it's a family project, believe it or not.  My wife has taken the pictures.  She loves it, Tanya (ph). 

It's just a—I'm the guy next door.  I'm the guy in the cube next to you.  I'm your mailman.  I'm your breadman.  And that's where this has all come about.  It's a feel-good story, I think, that anybody can do anything if you set your mind to it and think a little bit outside the box. 

COSBY:  Well, it's definitely thinking outside the driveway, at least, here in this case.

LAMB:  Oh, it was cold that day.  It was so cold.

COSBY:  Again, it looks like it almost killed you, right?

LAMB:  Oh, yes.  Like I said, I'm going to be in a movie or die trying. 

COSBY:  Well, in fact, we have a big surprise for you. 

LAMB:  You do, really?

COSBY:  Right now, we are joined on the phone by Roger Marino.  He's the executive producer of a new film calls “Stiffs” with Danny Aiello. 

Roger, what do you have to say to Chuck? 

ROGER MARINO, EXECUTIVE PRODUCER, “STIFFS”:  Well, you know, it's very interesting.  I saw him this morning on a morning show.  And, Chuck, what we have going here in Boston is we're filming a movie calls “Stiffs,” as Rita said, and it's starring Danny Aiello and Leslie Ann Warren.  And I'm here to offer you a role. 

LAMB:  Are you serious? 

MARINO:  Call it a bit of typecasting.  “Stiffs” is about a funeral home which is going out of business.  It's a black comedy and... 

LAMB:  Are you serious? 

COSBY:  He's serious.

MARINO:  Dead serious. 


LAMB:  Do you know how many people around the world right now are jumping up?  You wouldn't believe the e-mail that I get—I'm sorry; I don't mean to be boastful—but it's like the whole world has been behind me going, “We can do this.”  And that's what I say on my Web site.  We can all do this.  Anybody can. 

MARINO:  Well, you know, as I say, it's a bit of typecasting.  I only have two concerns, though, Chuck.  And one is that my zip bag is only so big, and I noticed here—someone was saying you're about 6'4”.  Is that true? 

LAMB:  No, no, I'm six foot even. 

MARINO:  OK.  All right.  That's good.  That makes me feel better.

LAMB:  And you know what?  My feet—I don't use them that much anymore, anyway. 


I'm in a cubicle.  So if we need to be—I can go down to about 5'8” if you really need to.  I'll just cut off my feet at the ankles.

MARINO:  All right, that will help. 

The other problem is that, you know, we're filming this in Boston in (INAUDIBLE) which is definitely an Italian-American area.  And I notice we might have to have—do a little makeup work on you, maybe put a little wig on you that makes you look a little bit more Italian...


COSBY:  Roger, we've got to go, unfortunately, because we've got a hard break.  Really quick, are you going to accept this? 

LAMB:  Yes, of course I'm going to accept it. 

COSBY:  You bet.  Oscar in the works?

LAMB:  If they have a category for best dead guy. 


COSBY:  All right.  We're rooting for you.  Congratulations.

LAMB:  Thank you so much.  This is unbelievable.  You guys...

COSBY:  We're going to be right back.  Dreams come true.

LAMB:  Yay!


COSBY:  And tonight, while we wait to hear of the fate of American

journalist Jill Carroll, who was taken hostage in Iraq, tomorrow night on

LIVE & DIRECT, hostage survival.  I visited the National Hostage Survival

Training Center and got a big dose of ultimate nightmare, being kidnapped

by terrorists. 


UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Get down!  Get down now!  Get down!


UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Don't look at me!  Hands on the table!  Hands on the table!  Nobody look up!  Get your identifications out right now!


UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  American here?  American?  Who is an American?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Are you an American?  Are you an American?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  Raise your hand if you're an American.  Keep your head down and don't you look up!



COSBY:  It's quite dramatic.  Hostage survival, tomorrow night, right here on LIVE & DIRECT.  Be sure to tune in for that.  And, of course, our prayers are with Jill Carroll tonight.

And that does it for us right here on LIVE & DIRECT.  I'm Rita Cosby. 

“SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY” with Joe starts right now—Joe?

JOE SCARBOROUGH, MSNBC HOST:  Thanks so much, Rita.

And right now in SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY, face off on Oprah's couch.



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