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All In With Chris Hayes, Thursday, January 15th, 2015

Read the transcript from the Thursday show

January 15, 2015

Guest: Barbara Lee, Sunjeev Bery, Spencer Kuvin, Janet Mock, David
Edelstein, Christopher John Farley



SEN. TED CRUZ (R), TEXAS: You cannot defeat radical Islamic terrorism if
you`re unwilling to utter the words "radical Islamic terrorism."


HAYES (voice-over): The White House defending their choice of words on the
Paris attack while a new plot is apparently foiled in Belgium. And an
ominous backlash against Muslims grows in Germany.

Then, a new accusation against Bill Cosby that may fall within the statute
of limitations.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She was drugged. She doesn`t know what happened. She
blacked out and woke up finding Mr. Cosby over her.

HAYES (voice-over): The lawyer for the accuser joins me live tonight.


HAYES (voice-over): Plus, the president continues to brush off the haters,
a shocking update in the McNugget wars and the Oscar nominations are out.
We`ll tell you what they got right and what they got wrong.



HAYES (voice-over): ALL IN starts right now.


HAYES: Good evening from New York, I`m Chris Hayes.

An imminent attack on a grand scale foiled in Belgium today according to
officials there. Police conducted a raid on an alleged terror cell in the
small city of Verviers, killing two and arresting another after the
suspects opened fire. According to a Belgian prosecutor, the group just
returned from Syria.

Meanwhile authorities in Belgium tell NBC News that counterterror
operations are still ongoing with a total 10 search warrants executed today
in multiple locations around the country.

This comes just a week over a week after the attack on "Charlie Hebdo" in
Paris. And while Belgian officials say there is no link at this stage
between what happened there and today`s raids. It is pretty clear the
dramatic and horrific way last week`s attacks unfolded out of nowhere,
hitting soft targets in the heart of the French capital has had
consequences for the politics of terrorism and security across Europe and
here in the U.S.

Already France has stepped up its military operations against ISIS, sending
an aircraft carrier to the Persian Gulf and deploying 10,000 troops inside
its own borders to maintain domestic security.

While the French prime minister declared war on radical Islam.

Here in the U.S., the Obama administration has very pointedly avoided using
precisely that kind of language. Now it`s facing a backlash from critics
who appear to be pushing for a reboot of the war on terror.


BILL O`REILLY, FOX NEWS HOST: This is day four of the jihad controversy
whereby the president and his acolytes will not say the world is threatened
by, quote, "Islamic terrorism."

CRUZ: You cannot defeat radical Islamic terrorism if you`re unwilling to
utter the words, "radical Islamic terrorism."

O`REILLY: So let`s stop the nonsense. Radical jihadists threaten the
world, much like the Nazis did in the 1930s. Responsible nations, not
individuals, must confront and destroy the jihadists in a methodical
worldwide campaign.

CRUZ: This is happening all over the world and there is a consistent theme
of radical Islamic terrorism and we need clear leadership to combat it.


HAYES: On Tuesday, the White House found itself forced to defend its
decision not to throw around terms like radical Islamic terrorism.


JOSH EARNEST, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: I certainly wouldn`t want to be
in a position where I`m repeating the justification that they have cited
that I think is completely illegitimate, right, that they have invoked
Islam to try to justify their attacks.

QUESTION: You call it radical Islam, you feel would be playing into their

EARNEST: Well, I think what I`m trying to do is I`m trying to describe to
you what happened and what they did. These are individuals who are
terrorists. What they did was they tried to invoke their own distorted,
deviant view of Islam to try to justify it.

And I think that is completely illegitimate and what we should do is we
should call it what it is. And it`s an act of terror and it`s one that we
roundly condemn. It`s an act of terror that was roundly condemned by Muslim
leaders across the globe.


HAYES: Now the truth is this is nothing new from the Obama administration.
From day one, this White House has at least in rhetoric and theory if often
not in practice discarded the terminology and framework of the Bush war on
terror, embracing a more complicated view of the problem as the president
laid out in a 2013 speech at the National Defense University.


terrorism we face is fueled by a common ideology, a belief by some
extremists that Islam is in conflict with the United States and the West
and that violence against Western targets, including civilians, is
justified in pursuit of a larger cause.

Of course this ideology is based on a lie. The United States is not at war
with Islam.


HAYES: Joining me now is Congresswoman Barbara Lee, Democrat from
California and the lone member of Congress to vote against the
authorization for the use of military force in the weeks after 9/11 14
years ago.

Congresswoman, do you think it is a sign of political correctness run amok
or cowardice on the part of the White House, Barack Obama and his staff,
that they will not say the phrase "radical Islamic terrorism" or "Islamic
terrorism" as his critics allege?

REP. BARBARA LEE (D), CALIF.: The president and the White House are
exactly correct on this and I applaud them for this. First of all, they`re
responsible for ensuring our national security. We have to be very careful
in our language and how we perceive these horrible, horrific acts of

And we do not -- I believe -- want to see any more anger and hostility and
violence in the world.

And so they have to be very careful to ensure that our response to
terrorism is a response that makes us safer, that begins to dismantle and
degrade terrorist organizations, not create more havoc, anger and hostility
in the world. So I have to just say to the president and the White House
they`re absolutely correct.

And I`m not even talking about being politically correct. But I`m talking
about in the context of our national security, they have to take a very
measured response, it must be thoughtful and it must be deliberate.

HAYES: You were the lone dissenting voice -- the lone dissenting vote in
the authorization to use military force past just a few days, 10 days, I
believe, after 9/11 in 2001 that created the framework for what came to be
known as the war on terror and which even rejected as a label is continued
under this White House, much of the activity is continued, citing the
authorization there.

What do you think of all of this, of people who point to what the horror
and murder in France and say, look, this is what we`re talking about, we
need to keep waging this war. We need to double down on this war, we need
to launch a new chapter in it.

LEE: What I have to say is what I said 13 years ago, Chris. First of all,
we have to be very deliberate in our response. I`m a psychiatric social
worker by profession. And so fear and anger must not motivate us to make
emotional decisions on such a terrible, terrible national security problem
and issue that we have to deal with.

Terrorism is very complicated and must be addressed. Killing innocent
people is wrong and we have to be deliberate in how we approach it. We
cannot respond based on the emotion and the fear of the moment.

As legislators, because we`re angry, everyone is fearful, but we have to
understand the context that we`re working in and put forth policies that
will create less danger and begin to dismantle and degrade terrorist
organizations, not respond with emotion and not respond, you know, with the
fear and the anger that all of us feel.

HAYES: Do you think the threat posed by these groups, Al Qaeda in the
Arabian Peninsula, the Islamic State, is commensurate with the Nazi threat
of the 1940s?

LEE: First, let me say, these are -- this is 2014; these are new threats.
These are threats based on asymmetrical warfare, threats based on
terrorism, they are based on ideological approaches to what I think is a
very sick, sick ideology in the world.

And so we have to really know that we`re dealing with now a new world.
We`re dealing with people who, have, for whatever reason have been
radicalized and who see others as enemies for whatever reason.

So I think these comparisons don`t do us any good. I think we have to
really understand the nature of terrorism, what it is about and how we
begin to really address these terrorist organizations within 2014. And I
think those are the kinds of issues that have to be debated and discussed
in Congress.

We`re in another war now in Iraq and Syria. We have not been able to put
forward any authorization, any debate really to exercise our constitutional
responsibility, to put forth these arguments and these issues so the
American people can weigh in and understand what is actually taking place.

And so I am saying that these comparisons, the fact that we`re in another
war without a congressional resolution authorizing this war, we`re in
another war with our members of Congress doing their job, engaging in these
debates so the public can fully understand what has taken place, that is
downright wrong and I think we are abdicating our responsibility so that we
can put forth all of the issues that you`re raising and others, because I
think we`re in a defining moment where members of Congress need to be on
the floor of Congress discussing each and every issue that we`re raising
tonight and what others are raising also.

HAYES: Congresswoman Barbara Lee, thank you very much.

I would just note that comparing the Islamic jihadis to the Nazi war
machine would just elevate them to the scope that they only occupy in their
own minds.

All right. The political attacks on President Obama for using the wrong
language represent the second wave of criticism over his response to the
attacks in Paris.

First, President Obama was taken to task for failing to take part in the
march on Sunday as part of an unprecedented gathering of world leaders, a
gathering that, as Jon Stewart later put it out, may not have been the best
representation of the values of "Charlie Hebdo."


JON STEWART, HOST, "THE DAILY SHOW": How could the U.S. not be there when
representatives of such beacons of freedom and lack of censorship as
journalist punishing Russia was there, journalist jailing Turkey was there,
Egypt, nuff said.



HAYES: Also part of that group, Saudi Arabia, close ally and dear friend
of the U.S., a country that just two days before the march did this.


HAYES: MSNBC cannot independently verify that video, but it appears to
show something we know happened last Friday in the Saudi city of Jeddah,
Raif Badawi, a Saudi liberal convicted of publishing a blog was publicly
flogged as part of his sentence of 10 years in prison and 1,000 lashes.
The sentence stems from Badawi`s creation of a website, freesaudiliberals,
which, according to "The Guardian," he envisages as a forum for social and
political debate.

Now if a Saudi doctor determines Badawi was not too badly injured in last
week`s flogging, he will be lashed again tomorrow and again, every Friday,
for the next 19 weeks.

Joining me now is Sunjeev Bery, Amnesty International USA Advocacy Director
for the Middle East and North Africa.

Sunjeev, what ran afoul of the Saudi authorities such that Mr. Badawi
received this prison sentence and his flogging sentence?

EAST AND NORTH AFRICA: Well, Mr. Raif Badawi basically put up a website.
He is a blogger. He wanted to encourage debate. He wrote some essays
about Valentine`s Day. He may have criticized the Saudi religious police.
And he published essays by other people.

But it is not an isolated incident. The Saudi Arabian government is in the
midst of a massive crackdown on the entire community of people in Saudi
Arabia, a small community that is engaged in human rights advocacy and
debate. This is an ongoing major crackdown in the country.

HAYES: I want to give an example of some of his writings so people can get
a flavor of this. This is an excerpt from his writing.

"No religion at all has any connection to mankind civic progress. This is
not a failing on the part of religion but rather that all religions
represent a particular, precise spiritual relationship between the
individual and the Creator. However, positive laws and unavoidable human
and social need because traffic regulations, employment law and the codes
governing the administration of state can hardly be derived from religion."

This is not particularly in our context a screaming polemic or the kind of
thing that you would imagine would get someone afoul of the law, but in
this case it did.

BERY: Absolutely. And it is just one example of how the Saudi Arabian
government is engaging in this massive crackdown. It is astonishing to me
that Saudi Arabian officials reportedly participated in the Paris
solidarity marches and then at the same time are flogging somebody, giving
him a 10-year prison sentence and something like a quarter of a million
U.S. dollar fine just for putting up a website.

It`s the kind of thing that people in the West ought to be outraged about
because you have people in Muslim majority societies who are striving to
encourage debate and discussion within the context of their faith and their
society and they`re being brutally shut down.

HAYES: The State Department has said that they don`t approve of this,
they`ve asked the Saudis not to do it.

Are you confident that the U.S. government is using its full leverage as a
close ally to Saudi Arabia to intervene on this?

BERY: I`m not confident at all because just one day after that statement,
the same State Department spokesperson went on to say a lot of praise about
the U.S.-Saudi relationship, how strong it is, how often Secretary Kerry
has talked to King Abdullah and that kind of thing just, it undermines any
-- it erodes the credibility of a statement calling for a individual`s

If one day you`re saying don`t flog this person, the next day you`re saying
our relationship is great, what is the real message?

HAYES: Sunjeev Bery of Amnesty International, thank you very much.

BERY: Thank you.

HAYES: There was a photo that was taken in the days following the
terrorist attack on the "Charlie Hebdo" offices in Paris that I haven`t
been able to get out of my mind. You`re seeing it there. I`m going to
tell you why -- ahead.


RACHEL MADDOW, MSNBC HOST: It was almost impossible for me to not abandon
my illustrious makeup job and run into your set and take one. So anyway,
thank you.


MADDOW: That would have been bad. Sorry. Yes, that -- you know, now I
don`t feel like I need one.

HAYES: You don`t.

MADDOW: You cured me. Thanks, man. Terrible.

HAYES: All right. So the other night I sat here on this set with 50
McDonald`s chicken nuggets, which the Golden Arches is offering a special
deal on, a 50 pack for $9.99, to bring you the story of the epic price war
going on between McDonald`s and rival Burger King, who is offering their
own deal, a 10 pack for $1.49.

And I asked what it says about the fast food industry, these two purveyors
can sell a meat product for 20 cents per nugget and 15 cents per nugget

Well, today, we were treated to the type of headlines that makes people
shudder and resolve never to eat another chicken nugget ever again.
"Mother Jones" reporting, quote, "Last week the company apologized after a
customer found plastic fragments in an order of Chicken McNuggets, which
were thought to have been produced at a Cargill factory in Thailand.

"McDonald`s pulled out nearly 1 million McNuggets from the factory in one

A million nuggets, that is like $37 worth, actually it would be 20,000 50-
packs, about $200,000 worth of nuggets at 20 cents apiece and approximately
-- God only knows -- how many chickens.

Cargill released a statement yesterday, saying the plastic found in the
nugget was not from their facilities but I guess it could have been worse.
At least I didn`t have fries with that, too. We`ll be right back.


HAYES: On Sunday as we`ve been reporting millions took to the streets in
France in a show of unity following the Paris terror attack that left 17
people dead. But there was another big rally the next day that you
probably haven`t heard about. It took place in Germany and the message as
you can see was this, "Islamists not welcome."

On Monday, 25,000 people took to the streets of Dresden for a rally
organized by a group called PEGIDA. It`s a German acronym that translates
in engage to, quote, "Patriotic Europeans against the Islamization of the
West." There was a record turnout for PEGIDA, an umbrella group for the
German right wing, including neo-Nazi factions, that holds weekly marches
to protest the influence of Islam in Germany and also claims not to be

The group founded in October of last year has become potent enough that
German Chancellor Angela Merkel has had to repeatedly condemn it, including
in a speech today, where she urged German citizens to stay away, saying
PEGIDA rallies or organized by people, quote, "with hatred in their

Now counter demonstrations against PEGIDA in Germany over the weekend and
Monday attracted more than 100,000 people, which is heartening, reflecting
the fact that many, many Germans condemn the group.

But an anti-Islamic nationalist movement is undeniably on the rise, not
just in Germany but across Europe, including in France, where Marine Le
Pen`s anti-immigrant party, the National Front, once linked to former Nazi
collaborators, is now the third largest political party.

In the wake of the Paris terror attacks, we`ve seen an outbreak of
vandalism and violence seemingly driven by hatred of Muslims. A rash of
anti-Muslim incidents had broken out across Europe after the attacks.

There were reports of attacks on mosques around France, including fire
bombs, gunfire, pig heads and grenades. In Dresden, where that PEGIDA
march took place, police are investigating a death of an Eritrean man,
whose blood-soaked body was found outside his home.

In Birmingham, England, eight Muslim-owned shops were attacked with guns
and hammers, leaving bullet holes in store windows.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All my windows come down.I come out and see the shop,
he was saying somebody`s walking and he smashed your window. And I
followed him and he jump in the car (INAUDIBLE) gone.

HAYES (voice-over): In a speech today, French President Francois Hollande
stressed that Muslims have the same rights as all citizens and stated that
anti-Muslim acts like anti-Semitic acts should not just be denounced but
severely punished.

Meanwhile, in a small bit of good news, it was announced today that the
Muslim man who has been hailed as a hero for saving lives in the attack on
the kosher supermarket by huddling folks into a freezer, Lassana Bathily,
will be granted French citizenship after an online petition was signed by
more than 300,000 people. The nationalization ceremony will be held

Joining me now, NBC News foreign correspondent, Ayman Mohyeldin.

And Ayman, obviously this is a point of contention and conflict in the
domestic politics of basically every country in the E.U. to varying

How fraught is it as someone who spent a lot of time living in London and
traveling throughout Europe, how tense is it?

AYMAN MOHYELDIN, NBC NEWS CORRESPONDENT: It is significant and it`s very
tense. Over the course of the last several years, a lot of human rights
organizations have been documenting the rise of what they call
Islamophobia, the specific targeting of Muslim minorities in several
European countries.

But in addition to that, there have been a rise not only in recent attacks
but also in some mainstream legislative suggestions that have, in the eyes
of Muslim populations, alienated the community further, coupled with the
rise of this anti-immigrant, anti-Muslim wave of right-wing parties.

And you realize that the situation in Europe is widening. That gap between
the majority populations and the minority Muslim communities continues to
widen to a point that many people are warning Europe is facing a critical
choice about its future, multiculturalism and immigration policies.

HAYES: Yes, obviously, there is a sort of building blocks of a kind of
ethnonationalism that is the nature of the European states created,
particularly after World War II, which saw a huge amount of ethnic movement
and ethnic cleansing, frankly, that created the modern states as they are
and have not quite conceived of the kind of self-conception for what a
pluralistic nation would look like.

Are there places that are doing a good job of it, cities, provinces,
nations that are figuring out what that 21st century European model looks

MOHYELDIN: Right now the short answer to that is no. You have seen some
countries make progress, countries like the United Kingdom have certainly
put more resources and tried to put more of an effort into trying to bring
in the Muslim population there and others into the mainstream.

But when we talk about the mainstream and we talk about political
representation and economic opportunity, we have not seen that translate
yet. We`ve certainly seen it on a law enforcement side; yes, in the United
Kingdom there has been progress in trying to reach out to these
communities, to make sure extremism doesn`t take a hold.

But when you look across a pan-European level, you`re not seeing a kind of
integrated pan-European approach to try to help assimilate some of these
groups and some of these minorities.

A lot of these problems are actually rooted in economic problems that go
back several years with the rise of the Eurozone and the economic crisis
and hardships, a lot of people started blaming that on immigrants, that
were cheap labor coming in to the Eurozone, taking away some of these jobs
as they were perceived from the majority populations as well as some social

That started to create this anti-immigrant hysteria which the majority of
those populations tended to be Muslims trying to make their way across

That is why we have seen the rise of so many of these right-wing parties on
a pan-European level. They`re not necessarily doing so strong in their own
national parliaments, but on the European parliament level the numbers are
shocking. They`re winning up to 20 percent to 30 percent in some areas.
And that has a lot of people concerned that right-wing parties are on the
rise, many of them with neo-Nazi tendencies.

HAYES: Ayman, what do you think we`re going to see now? Obviously these
attacks are massively upsetting, they`re polarizing in some ways in terms
of how the fallout gets interpreted across the continent and France
specifically, and Europe continues to be under tremendous economic stress,
a very long -- it has never had a recovery from the financial crisis.

What is your expectation for how this plays out?

MOHYELDIN: Right now I see that there`s still going to be a lot of
friction and tension going forward and that is for a few reasons. One, the
national leadership, the leadership of several of these countries do not
seem to be taking a very active role in trying to defuse the situation.

Yes, we`re hearing from the German Chancellor Angela Merkel, but what is
also happening is that a lot of these countries` policies are shifting to
the right because of the right-wing parties winning more seats and showing
favorably in opinion polls. That`s dragging these countries to the right.

But what you really need to see is also economic improvement. More
importantly, you need to see, also, members of the Muslim community make a

Do they want to assimilate and integrate into Europe?

Do they want to participate in the political process or do they want to
stay on the sidelines and remain somewhat marginalized?

It is a two-way road, really, because the community has to make a decision
to participate in politics. But they also have to be given a fair shot at
participating in those politics and not be continuously marginalized
economically, culturally and socially, as we have seen in some countries
with decisions, with some of their legislation against immigrants, against
Muslims and others.

HAYES: Ayman Mohyeldin, thank you very much. Ayman is going to do a
Twitter chat on the Paris attacks tomorrow at 1:00 pm Eastern, which you
should definitely check out if you have a chance.

All right. Next Tuesday, President Obama`s State of the Union address.
I`m looking forward to it more this year than I have in a while. I`ll tell
you why next.


HAYES: I don`t know about you, but ever since the midterm drubbing last
year, it seems to me Barack Obama has become a new man, or at least the man
he`s showing to the world. He is not running for office any more, he
doesn`t have to worry about winning elections for his congressional allies
either. And he has been acting like someone who has no -- what`s the word
-- cares left to give. From protecting millions of people from the threat
of deportation with the stroke of a pen, to announcing a climate deal with
China, which is huge news by the way, to moving toward ending a half
century of bad travel and trade policy with Cuba, he`s asked the FCC to
adopt tough new rules on net neutrality, this administration even making
some headway of nuclear talks with Iran against huge congressional
criticism and opposition.

All of that is making me look forward to next week`s State of the Union
Address, because what else might he be planning?

Over the last week, the president has been touring the country, giving us a
preview. In Knoxville, Tennessee he announced an initiative to would offer
free community college to as many as 9 million Americans, a 10 year, $60
billion proposal the White House argues would help bridge the income
inequality gap.

The plan got a shout out in a he recent New York Times op-ed written by one
supportive community college alum Tom Hanks.

In Cedar Falls, Ohio, the president made the case for municipal broadband,
which was once just a dream of lefty tech activists, now in places in
several cities and towns like Cedar Rapids -- or Cedar Falls around the
country and about to get a big endorsement from the president.

He noted, where else but online with Oval Office Pad in hand, that other
cities are winning the high speed internet race.


OBAMA: Unfortunately we also have got a bunch of U.S. cities that aren`t
on par, that aren`t moving as fast when it comes to broadband. And you
know what it feels like when you don`t have a good internet connecting,
right, everything is buffering, you`re trying to download a video you`ve
got that little circle thing that goes around and around.


HAYES: I hear you, we all hate that circle thing.

I wonder who could be responsible for it?

Today in Baltimore, Maryland, the president discussed his plan for paid
sick leave, a long time demand of labor and progressive organizers all
across the country. The White House wants the nation`s estimated 40 -- get
this, 43 million private sector workers who aren`t currently eligible for
sick day, they cannot take a day off if they are sick. He wants them to be
allowed to earn up to seven.

And that`s a policy change that would represent a massive improvement in
the well-being of the American workforce.

The president also signing a memorandum giving up to six weeks paid leave
to federal employees who are new parents.

These initiatives offer us a glimpse into what Barack Obama might propose
next Tuesday. More is expected to be announced in the speech and I, for
one, can`t wait.

We will have full coverage and analysis of the State of the Union Address
right here starting at 8:00 p.m. Eastern. Stay tuned.


HAYES: For the first time since the recent spate of sexual assault
accusations against Bill Cosby, a woman has spoken to police in a case that
may fall within the statute of limitations.

The woman in question is 23-year-old Chole Goins who told Los Angeles
police detectives that Bill Cosby drugged and sexually assaulted her at a
Midsummer Night`s Dream party at the Playboy Mansion in 2008.
Specifically, she says that when she awoke from a blackout, Cosby was
standing over her naked. She was 18-years-old at the time.

Goins met with police detectives yesterday for two hours at the LAPD`s
downtown headquarter. This allegation comes in the wake of a series of
allegations that have surfaced over the past several months relating to
alleged actions spanning many years.

Two dozen other women have accused Cosby of some form of sexual misconduct.

In 2006, Bill Cosby settled a civil lawsuit with a woman who said Cosby had
drugged her and sexually assaulted her at his home in Pennsylvania.

Martin Singer, an attorney for Cosby has not yet responded to our request
for a statement or our invitation to join us on this program, but in the
past has vehemently denied all the allegations against his client in
statements to NBC News.

Bill Cosby has never been charged.

But joining me now exclusively is the attorney for Chloe Goins, Spencer

Mr. Kuvin, here`s the first question, my understanding is that the alleged
incident falls just outside of the statute of limitations for sexual
assault, which I believe is six years. Isn`t this just an open and shut
case just in terms of that problem? How could there be any further
criminal proceedings if you`re outside of the window of the statute of

SPENCER KUVIN, ATTORNEY: Well, Chris, thank you for having me here
tonight. I really appreciate it.

This is an important topic for all of women across America who have been

But to your question, that`s not the case because you`re looking at only
one statute in California, not all of the statutes. And ultimately it will
be up to the police and the state`s attorney in California to decide
whether it falls within any of the statutes that are applicable under the
criminal statute and code in California.

We leave that up to the attorneys, the state`s attorney in California to
decide and the police to use the information that my client gave them and
the facts and circumstances of her case may fall within some other criminal
statute in California that I am just not at liberty to discuss right now.

HAYES: There are going to be people who say this -- and the Cosby lawyers
have basically said that the spate of allegations that have come out, all
very similar to each other, at this point that you can`t trust them
precisely because they`re all so similar and all of this is in the public
domain, and so anyone can come forward and make an allegation that adheres
to the contours of previous allegations and thus imbue it with credibility.

What do you say to that?

KUVIN: Everyone must understand that when a woman comes forward with these
types of allegations, they don`t come forward lightly. This is a very
serious accusation and my client has subjected herself to potential
criminal prosecution for false charges if in fact the police prove that
what she has said is untrue.

This was not taken lightly by my client and shouldn`t be taken lightly by
client and shouldn`t be taken lightly about any of the women that have come
forward thus far.

Abuse, rape, sexual molestation are all issues that women have to contend
with every day in America and coming forward is certainly not easy. And
there are a lot of women that have come forward now that have absolutely
nothing to gain other than their self-worth by coming forward.

HAYES: I`m presuming that if the police find your client credible, they
find the allegations credible, there is some sort of corroborating
eyewitness testimony, people who remember that night, that she was there,
this would still be an incredibly difficult case to prosecute, even if it
cleared the statute of limitations bar. I`m presuming there is probably no
physical evidence. You would be dealing with recollections of a single
night at a party at which there was probably alcohol six or seven years

I mean, do you think this a prosecutable case?

KUVIN: I`m certainly not a criminal attorney, so I leave that up to the
state`s attorney. But what I can say as an attorney is that there is
something called habit evidence. And when you have 25 plus women coming
forward and testifying before a jury, even if their cases cannot be
prosecuted individually, the jury can utilize that evidence as habit
evidence, to be able to convict someone and especially Bill Cosby based
upon the circumstantial evidence that`s put forward to the jury.

So, just because there may not be specific evidence that can convict him
without any doubt as to her particular allegation, when combined with her
story and corroborating witnesses, absolutely someone can be convicted
under criminal.

HAYES: So, you`re saying -- you`re saying that you would imagine a
scenario in which were it to be prosecuted, the prosecutors would move to
have testimony from some of the other women who have brought allegations of
a set of actions taken by Bill Cosby similar to the ones that your client
is alleging.

KUVIN: Absolutely. With any serial offender, what the state`s attorneys
do is they put forward evidence to show a method of operation, or as a lot
of people understand it, an M.O. And that M.O. can be utilized to
prosecute a case against an individual defendant based upon one client, but
even though the other people cannot be prosecutor they come forward and
tell their story to establish that M.O. of that serial offender.

HAYES: Obviously the Cosby attorneys, I imagine, would fight that very
hard. They, of course, say that these allegations are untrue, not
specifically your client who they haven`t responded to, bu the previous

Spencer Kuvin, thank you very much, really appreciate it.

KUVIN: My pleasure. Thank you for having me, Chris.

HAYES: The Academy Award nominations came out today, all anybody can talk
about is how white the nominees are, oh, and also Dick Poop. I will
explain next.


HAYES; If you notice the phrase Dick Poop trending today on Twitter, but
were understandably afraid to Google it and find out why, allow me to shed
some light on the situation -- that`s what you come to us for.

You see, the nominees for the 87th Annual Academy Awards were announced
this morning in Beverly Hills. And here`s what happened during that high
profile press conference when Academy President Cheryl Boone Isaacs
announced the nominees for best cinematography.


are: Emmuel Lubezki for Birdman (or the Unexpected Virtue of Ignorance),
Robert Yeoman for The Grand Budapest Hotel, Lukasz Zal and Richard
Lenshosky (ph) for Ida; Dick Poop -- Dick Pope for Mr. Turner...


HAYES: Yes, that`s right, Dick Poop -- in an instant the man who works
behind the scenes in Hollywood became famous.


ISAACS: Dick Poop -- Dick Pope for Mr. Turner.


HAYES: Twitter, of course, delighted in the flub as did the world`s
collective inner 8-year-old. When reached for comment today by the folks
and USA Today, the newly christened Dick Poop said, quote, you know what I
-- I have been called a lot worse in my time.

Though Mr. Pope indicated he had never been on Twitter and doesn`t not know
what trending means.

He also said, quote, you don`t need to explain it to me, I have had it
explained 100 times. I feel sorry for the lady who made the
mispronunciation -- I have to say as do I as someone who does this for a
living and mispronounces names all the time.

This is Dick Pope`s second Oscar nomination, or you could say, his number


HAYES: Oscar nominations came out today and two of the big contenders are
off beat comedies: Wes Anderson`s The Grand Budapest Hotel scored nine
nominations, equally Birdman starring Michael Keaton for the most

Both movies got best picture and best director nods.

Then there were those that seemed to get snubbed by the academy. There was
Jake Gyllenhaal who was overlooked in the best actor category, even though
his performance in Nightcrawler was widely raved about. And The Lego
Movie, which was the fourth highest grossing moving of 2014, also hugely
popular among certain member of our staff. Most prominently absent in the
nominations was, of course, the movie Selma.

Well, it did manage to capture a nomination for best original song and best
picture, this film about one of America`s most fraught, violent and
dramatic periods in which black people serve as agents of change, did not
get a best director nomination for Ava DuVernay, which would have been a
first for a black woman, nor did David Oyelowo get a best actor nod for his
portrayal -- his incredible portrayal, I might say, of Martin Luther King
Jr. who would have been 86 today, by the way.

In fact, just one year after 12 Years a Slave picked up Academy Awards for
Best Picture, best supporting actress and best adapted screenplay, this
year`s awards will be the whitest Oscars since 1998.

That`s because all 20 acting nominees this year are white. Also this
year`s Oscars five directors and 14 screenwriters nominated are all men.

And there high expectations for the movie Selma in the buildup to today`s
announcements. Plenty of critics thought it was a lock for best actor and
that Ava DuVernay had a chance to become the first black woman ever
nominated for best director, despite the recent controversy concerning some
of the movie`s historical accuracy.

While, it is not unreasonable to suggest the controversy might have played
a role in the Academy`s decision not to give Selma more nominations, could
there be another reason for the snub? One that has to do with a complete
screw up by the movie`s own studio? We`ll talk about that when we get


HAYES: All right, we`re back here with me to talk about the Oscars --
Janet Mock, pop culture journalist, also host of So Popular with streams on
Shift by MSNBC Friday`s at 11:00; David Edelstein, chief film critic for
New York magazine and; and Christopher John Farley, senior
editor and culture columnist for the Wall Street Journal, author of

OK, so here`s the theory that I have heard about Selma -- there`s a variety
of theories, but the sort of -- the interesting theory I`ve heard is that
basically, Paramount, the studio, screwed up, that they didn`t get the
final cut out fast enough. They didn`t get screeners into the hands of the
Academy, that a film like American Sniper, which came out at the same time
was out in people`s hands much earlier. People got a chance to see it.
That the Academy is lazy. They only watch stuff that they get the

Does that wash? Is that plausible?

happened this year, perhaps, if true, but it doesn`t explain why this
happens all the time. I mean, we have only had four women ever nominated
for best director, only one has ever won it. So why does this happen year
after year? Why can`t we get more women in that category of best director
actually winning or being nominated for filmmaking.

HAYES: And there was also this list floating around today that I think aws
nine example of of movies were directed by women that got the best picture
nod and not the best picture nod. Whenver that happens, everyone sort of
used that as an insult. It happened with Argo with Ben Affleck two years
ago, I guess, and this seems like a snub.

DAVID EDELSTEIN, NEW YORK MAGAZINE: It is a huge snub. I mean, the
theories, as you said, are rampant. There`s the LBJ distortion, which
unfortunately are fair, and I say that as somebody who puts Selma on my 10
best list. You know, he was more involved in the Selma march than the film
gives him credit for.

There is the screener thing.

HAYES: I just want to put a pin in that, because I don`t want to debate
historical significance, but I think there is a sort of -- there`s a
conversation about how involved he was, and then there`s also a
conversation about like the -- how germane that is to a historical film,
all of which take huge licenses.

EDELSTEIN: Well, it is a movie -- it is a movie, though, that shows you
dates and times on the screen. So -- but the screener thing, look, if the
Academy members can`t get off their sclerotic 60 plus year old lard asses
and get to a screening room, if that`s what it comes down to, then it is
really pathetic.

I think there were other reasons, too. I think Oprah is not apparently
popular and she was selling this hard. I don`t know if you heard that.

JANET MOCK, HOST, SO POPULAR: I know for me, I just saw the screener. I
saw it in, I believe in November at a special screening and the film still
wasn`t done yet. And so I understand that the Paramount thing is an issue.

But I also think that there is a piece of it that is doubly -- it`s women,
of course, but it`s also being a black woman, right, at the helm of a civil
rights portrait, that she said radically and revolutionary said that she
does not care about it being a white savior film. And we also know that
the films that get attention by the Academy tend to be white savior films.

HAYES: Yes, totally.

And the other thing to me about having seen Selma, which I found massively
powerful emotionally, and I had some issues with mostly with the script.
But the things that stood out to me, the two things that stood out to me
was the directing was this sort of it as cinematic filmic experience, which
I found increible. And the performance of Martin Luther King Jr. which is
just an impossible role that no one could possibly do because he`s a kind
of (inaudible). And I think he did an amazing job.

And so when I saw those were the two things it didn`t get nominated for
today I was like, whoa.

EDELSTEIN: You know, David Oyelowo not just made those features live, but
they weren`t even Martin Luther King`s features, because Stephen Speilberg
owned the rights to them. He was everything I ever dreamed of in Martin
Luther King. He made that...

HAYES: And it`s an impossible task. You know someone shows up and say,
you`re going to play the most celebrated, iconic, rhetoritician of American
history, go to it. We`ve all seen...

EDELSTEIN: ...comparative to Daniel Day Lewis in Lincoln.

FARLEY: Yes, and it happens again and again, look at what happened to
Malcolm X, it was perhaps, arguably is Denzel Washington`s greatest
performance was not nominated, did not win for that performance.

And also look at what`s nominated for Best Picture this time. There are
eight pictures. Not a single one of them is told about a woman with a
woman as the lead character driving the engine of the story. Eight
stories, eight dudes, women on the sidelines. What`s up with that?

HAYES: This is the point at which we should say that the Academy
demographics 94 percent white, 77 percent male. I think it would be like
the sixth or seventh whitest state in the union if it were state.

I mean, the demographics.

EDELSTEIN: They all look like me. They`re Jewish, they`re over 50,
they`re, you know, I mean, it`s pathetic. I would quit if I were a member.

HAYES: I like you as an individual, but I`d like a little more.

MOCK: So, is it just a case of people voting for the things that represent

HAYES: Right. I mean, there is, look, there is some -- a huge amount of
this is subjective. It looks like what movie affected you? What do you
like? You know what I mean, like, you could come in and I have -- and
there is a huge amount of -- these are not professional critics, right? I
mean, they`re not people that have all of the training, the tremendous
rigorous training -- you had to go to critic school for nine years.

FARLEY: What I find interesting, the arguments sometimes people say is
that, oh, well these are the films that people want to see. Well, none of
the films that are nominated for best picture made over $60 million at the
box office. So, these are all like smaller films that didn`t get a whole
lot of support from people yet.

And one they`re smaller films that didn`t get a lot of support yet.

And one of the films that was left off was, a film directed by a woman, was
Angelina Jolie`s Unbroken, that made more money at the box office than
every film
that was nominated.

HAYES: That`s right.

FARLEY: Over $100 million.

HAYES: So, let me ask you this, what are things you were happy with today?
Are there nuggets in there you were happy with?

MOCK: I love Birdman -- for me Birdman and Michael Keaton. I`m just --
I`m so excited for his comeback in that film. I really enjoyed it as a
piece of filmmaking, an -- you know, I`m not a critic, but I`m an audience
person. And so I loved it.

EDELSTEIN: That`s why you liked it, you`re not a critic, because they made
fun of critics all through that movie.

HAYES: And also it was -- there is also a degree to which I`ve heard like
the Academy loves comeback story, you know what I mean, like the Michael
Keaton comeback as a kind of narrative is extremely appealing.

Do you have a bright spot?

EDELSTEIN: It`s not my favorite Michael Keaton movie or performance, but
happy for Julianne Moore. You know, here is an actress who is in the top
tier of film actresses. She has been laboring in Indy films for years and
years. She gives this performance as an early onset Alzheimer`s victim in
Still Alice. I think she is a lock for this award. And I think she needs
it. I think she deserves it.

I think the outpouring of love we`re going to see for her is going to be
probably the best thing in the show.

HAYES: Chris.

FARLEY: I loved The Imitation Game. I`m glad it got nominated. I`m glad
that Beyond the Lights got a nomination for best song. It`s a terrific
film ignored by a lot of people. I think people should see it.

One other snub, though, it`s too bad the film Belle did not get any
nominations, a terrific film, a film centering around the black experience,
another film completely ignored...

EDELSTEIN: ...a great actress, we should say.

FARLEY: Yeah, with Gugu Mbatha-Raw. She should have been nominated for
best actress. Totally ignored.

HAYES: I`m now going to go see Belle.

I was very excited that Citizenfour by Laura Poitras was nominated today.
That`s the documentary of Edward Snowden that has just unbelievable
footage. It`s really some of the most stunning documentary footage I`ve
ever seen.

Janet Mock, David Edelstein, Christopher John Farley -- god, I could have
done that for an hour.

All right -- but I didn`t.

That is ALL IN for this evening. "THE RACHEL MADDOW SHOW" starts now.


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