PoliticsNation, Wednesday, February 18th, 2015

Show: POLITICS NATION
Date: February 18, 2015
Guest: Andre Carson, Eric Guster, Faith Jenkins, Stephanie Miller, Jimmy
Williams

ED SCHULTZ, MSNBC HOST: That`s "THE ED SHOW." I`m Ed Schultz. POLITICS
NATION with Reverend Al Sharpton starts now.

Good evening, Rev.

REV. AL SHARPTON, MSNBC HOST: Good evening, Ed. And thanks to you for
tuning in.

We start with breaking news. President Obama delivering a major speech on
ISIS and fighting violent extremism around the world. The president saying
he`s confident the U.S. will prevail.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: In the face of this
challenge, we have marshaled the full force of the United States government
and we`re working with allies and partners to dismantle the terrorist
organizations.

And I`m confident that just as we have for more than two centuries, we will
ultimately prevail. And part of what gives me that confidence is the
overwhelming response of the world community to the savagery of these
terrorist. Not just revulsion but a concrete commitment to work together
to vanquish these organizations.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SHARPTON: The president also today addressing the point that`s provoked
debate here at home. How to describe ISIS and groups like them?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OBAMA: There`s been a fair amount of debate in the press and among pundits
about the words we use to describe and frame this challenge. So I want to
be very clear about how I see it. Al-Qaeda and ISIL and groups like it are
desperate for legitimacy. They try to portray themselves as religious
leaders, holy warriors in defense of Islam.

We must never accept the premise that they put forward because it is a lie.
Nor should we grant these terrorists the religious legitimacy that they
seek. They are not religious leaders. They are terrorists.

(APPLAUSE)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SHARPTON: They are terrorists. And that`s why the U.S. is pounding ISIS
in Iraq and Syria and why the president has submitted a war powers request
green lighting the use of special forces. And yet at this serious time,
we`re also seeing Republicans return to the kind of rhetoric we haven`t
heard since the bertha era. It`s a poisonous atmosphere, where a GOP
congressman actually feels like it`s OK to say the president is on the side
of ISIS.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. SCOTT PERRY (R), PENNSYLVANIA: We have a commander in-chief who seems
not only not ready, not un-willing but really working collaboratively with
what I would say is the enemy of freedom and of individual freedom and
liberty and western civilization and modernity. He actually might use it
to further their cause in what seems to be his cause.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SHARPTON: A sitting member of Congress accusing the president of the
United States of trying to further the cause of ISIS. It`s stunning. But
we`re hearing a lot of this from Republican politicians.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. BLAKE FARENTHOLD (R), TEXAS: You`ve got a president who I don`t think
is committed to the war on terror. I don`t think his heart is behind it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My concern is that the president doesn`t have the
fortitude to actually do what`s need to be done.

REP. BOB CORKER (R), TENNESSEE: There`s a lot of skepticism about the
administration commitment to dealing with ISIS.

MATT SALMON (R), ARIZONA: I don`t believe that the president really wants
to prosecute a war that would truly destroy ISIL.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SHARPTON: The president doesn`t want to destroy ISIS? His heart`s not in
it. This stuff has seeped back into the groundwater on the right, back to
things we thought that were behind us. Now, one conservative Web site is
even claiming the president flashed a Muslim gang sign at a recent summit.
It`s ridiculous. America is confronting a serious threat and it`s going to
require a serious and united American response.

Joining me now is Congressman Andre Carson, Democrat from Indiana, the
first Muslim American to serve on the intelligence committee. And Jonathan
Capehart of "The Washington Post." Thank you both for being here.

REP. ANDRE CARSON (D), INDIANA: Your honor. Thank you, Rev.

JONATHAN CAPEHART, OPINION WRITER, THE WASHINGTON POST: Thanks.

SHARPTON: Congressman, your response to the president`s speech?

CARSON: Well, I thought the president`s speech was a powerful speech. I
thought it was a very important speech. The administration released its
first CV strategy in 2011 and they`ve been working with many leaders who
were present at the summit today in a way that helps to foster a greater
understanding and cooperation in terms of pushing back on extremist
activities.

Then there`s a growing concern, Revered, that the emphasis has been too
heavy on Muslims but I think at a time when we have folks who are claiming
to be Muslim and claiming to represent Islam who are committing violent
acts against fellow human beings, it`s time that the Muslim community comes
together and say enough is enough.

SHARPTON: Now, you are a member of the intelligence committee. You`re an
elected member of congress. I`ve been to your district with you in
churches there.

CARSON: Yes. That`s right.

SHARPTON: And you are a practicing Muslim.

CARSON: Yes, sir.

SHARPTON: Is there anything in Islam that you know and practice that in
anyway justifies or calls for the kind of behavior that we`ve seen from
those that have identified themselves as ISIS or ISIL?

CARSON: Absolutely not. Islam means peace. And the history shows that of
peace. Of course, any religion has examples of those claiming or purported
to be inherent of that faith to have committed violent acts throughout its
history. But I think that`s a small fraction and it doesn`t represent the
over billion Muslims who inhabit this globe. And it`s unfortunate that it
takes a small fraction of extremists who claim to be Muslim to misrepresent
the faith that is so peaceful.

You, Reverend, have worked with Muslims throughout your career. I know in
my own community growing up in the inner city, watching Muslims take
control of their communities, doing what law enforcement had failed to do
in keeping those communities safe and pushing out drug activities.

SHARPTON: Now, if the president, therefore, made this even by inference,
seem like a war against religion or a particular religious group which you
practice rather than a war against terrorists, as he said, would he not
risk deeply offending some Americans who choose to practice a religion that
you do that does not at all require you or call upon or condone this kind
of activity?

CARSON: Without question. And I think whenever you step out there boldly
in that kind of way in an official capacity, you risk offending some
people. And given the history of the Muslim community`s relationship with
law enforcement, relationship with the government, dating back to J. Edgar
Hoover`s counter intelligence program, many in the black community warned
the immigrant Muslim community decades before of the kind of relationship
that is all too often been transactional, reverend, it has been a cover to
spy on communities. And the president noted that in his speech and I
command him for being bold and doing so.

SHARPTON: Jonathan, the president is prosecuting a serious effort against
ISIS and yet you have Republicans literally accusing him of fighting for
the other side. What`s your response to that?

CAPEHART: Well, it`s outrageous. Anyone who would say that the commander
in chief of the United States would side with an enemy, side with an enemy
so brutal really doesn`t deserve to be an elected official. I mean, it`s
outrageous to hear a sitting member of Congress say out loud that he thinks
that the president is working against people who would love nothing more
than to destroy this country.

And what that clip you showed of Congressman Perry from Pennsylvania shows
is that the hope that the craziness and silliness and the bertharism (ph)
and the otherism (ph) that was coming out of the 113th Congress and ever
since the tea party folks swarmed Capitol Hill in 2010, and that was going
to go away with 114 of Congress, the new Congress that are seated because
they are more reasonable members of the Republican party who were elected
to the House. We now know that that`s no longer the case.

We are still back to having the president not only battle, you know,
enemies of the country overseas who want to not only bring down the United
States but just western civilization. He also has to deal with some
Republicans on Capitol Hill who still to this day, six, seven years into
his tenure as president of the United States, still questioning whether he
loves this country and whether he will do everything possible to protect
this country.

SHARPTON: You know, Congressman, the president rejected the idea that the
west is involved in some sort of holy war and he also called on Muslim
leaders to reject that idea. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OBAMA: We are not at war with Islam. We are at war with people who have
perverted Islam. Just as those of us outside Muslim communities need to
reject the terrorist narrative that the west and Islam are in conflict, or
modern life and Islam are in conflict. I also believe that Muslim
communities have a responsibility as well.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SHARPTON: Congressman, why is it important to talk about this as a fight
against terrorists and not this is some epic clash of civilizations.

CARSON: Well, I think that there has been too much of an emphasis on
placed on the president`s the usage of serving phraseology. This is not a
clash of civilizations as it were. But I think that folks of goodwill, be
they seek Hindu, Jewish, Christian Catholic, Muslim, Nontheist, must come
together and make a stand, take a stand and acknowledge that if you go in
any major courtroom, you can find a Muslim attorney or Muslim judge, my
father-in-law happens to be the first elected Muslim judge in the country,
Judge David Shaheed.

Go to any major hospital and you`ll find Muslims position. They are
Muslims who are making investments in our country each and every day in
positive ways. And so the greater question becomes, how can we as
Americans who believe in polaristic (ph) society, who know that our country
is a melting pot say that we will not stand with those who are Islamic
phobic and those who seek to cast this version on one particular group when
there`s only a small fraction those who claimed to be Muslim who
misrepresent the greater Muslim community. Enough is enough.

SHARPTON: At the same time, Jonathan, stand firmly against Islamic phobia
but stand firmly against terrorism without using this as some way to peeved
in to partisan shaded the president. These people are beheading people.
Are taking people`s heads off and you use that to take a cheap shot at the
president?

CAPEHART: Yes. I mean, the whole tenure and tone of the debate,
especially around, you know, the rise of ISIS, sir, or ISIL has been very
discouraging. And I thought the president`s remarks that you played
earlier were very important where he said, you know, we`re not -- we`re not
going to battle against religious leaders. They want us to legitimize them
as religious leaders. They`re not religious leaders, they`re terrorist.

CARSON: Yes.

CAPEHART: And as long, I mean, it would great if people on -- if everyone
on Capitol Hill were to take that to heart and rally around the president
and all the leaders in the western world and in the Middle East who are
trying to deal with this savage people who are beheading people and killing
people all in the name of what, I don`t know. They might be -- they might
think that they are doing this in the name of Islam, in the name of Allah,
but we all know the truth. And the president has been trying to get that
across to the American people for a long time and I hope today -- I hope
that today that they got that message.

(CROSSTALK)

SHARPTON: I would have to leave you there. I would have to leave you
there.

I hope they did -- that he did as well. I hope people got it. And if you
can`t rally around the president, Jonathan, at least rally around what is
decent and what will preserve human life but rise above this partisan
bickering when we`re dealing with this kind of element that wants to
distort religion.

Congressman Andre Carson, really thank you for being here tonight.

Jonathan Capehart, always great to have you. Thank you for your time.

Coming up, awkward timing. Jeb Bush tries to distance himself from his
brother as we learn the architect of the Iraq war is now on his team.

Plus, a twist in that road rage shooting in Las Vegas. Why did the mom and
son go looking for the suspect before she got killed?

And Jimmy Fallon kicks off his second year on "The Tonight Show." Our
conversation nation panel looks out as to how he has redefined late night.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SHARPTON: We have a news flash from Jeb Bush. He wants you to know that
he`s not his brother. So far, so good. But there`s a catch. And it
reveals a lot about his potential run for president. That`s next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SHARPTON: Jeb Bush wants to be president. But he has a big problem. His
last name. So in a speech today, Jeb tried to put some daylight between
himself and his famous family.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. JEB BUSH (R), FLORIDA: As you might know, I`ve also been fortunate to
have a father and brother who helped shape America`s foreign policy from
the oval office. I recognize, as a result, my views will often be held up
in comparison to theirs. Look, just for the record, one more time, I love
my brother, I love my dad. I actually love my mother as well. I hope
that`s OK. And I admire their service to the nation and the difficult
decisions that they had to make. But I`m my own man and my views are
shaped by my own thinking and my own experiences.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SHARPTON: He`s his own man. He won`t be W2.0. That`s great. Except 19
of Jeb`s 21 foreign policy advisers worked for either his brother or his
father. That includes former Secretary of State James Baker; you may
remember him as Bush`s man in charge of the Florida recount. The guy who
helped get him into office. Another Jeb adviser, Paul Wolfowitz, one of
the architects of the Iraq war, the guy who wrongly claimed Iraqi oil would
paid for it all. So how was Jeb his own man when he was relying on people
like that? He`s not, he doesn`t disagree as brothers -- with his brother`s
foreign policy apparently anything else his brother did.

Check out this clip from DNC that they dug up today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: What`s your biggest political disagreement
with your brother?

BUSH: I will tell you that I`m the only Republican that was in office when
he was in office and as president that never disagreed with him. And I`m
not going to start now. Why would I do that now after two years?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE REPORTER: No.

Wait, not one time you call up and say, you know what, don`t do that?

BUSH: I`m not going to start now. It`s just until death do us part.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SHARPTON: No disagreements? Then or now.

Joining me now, our MSNBC`s Joy Reid and Abby Huntsman. Thank you both for
being here.

JOY REID, MSNBC HOST: Thanks, Rev.

ABBY HUNTSMAN, MSNBC CO-HOST: Thanks, Rev.

SHARPTON: Joy, how can Jeb say he`s on own man? But Philly Champaign (ph)
with former Bush adviser.

REID: Yes. I mean, on the one hand, I mean, you know, when there`s a
previous Republicans president, you`re going to deep into that previous
administration for about it because it make sense the family does has have
closer advisors but you showed Paul Wolfowitz there. And I think the
bigger problem for Jeb is that a lot of those advisors where in a sense
more he`s than George`s. Remember 1997 when Jeb Bush was running for
governor for Florida, he was also un-signatory to the original --

SHARPTON: You -- a Florida it totally enmesh this prod.

REID: Yes. No. This was the year --

SHARPTON: Just so people know we`re talking to a Floridian expert here.

REID: I moved to Florida in 1997. So I moved there right at the start.

HUNTSMAN: Typically with everything you need to know about Jeb Bush.

REID: Everything about Jeb Bush. And at the time that Jeb Bush was an
original signatory to something called the project for new American
century. Which was the original neoconservative bible. Jeb was the neo
counter fold George Bush was a neocon. And that the co-signatories to that
panache document, which was the precursor to this idea of multiple theater
wars, going in and invading Iraq, and over throwing Saddam Hussein that
includes people like Paul Wolfowitz, includes people like Richard Pearl,
Scooter Libby. (INAUDIBLE)

(CROSSTALK)

SHARPTON: Who he has advising him now?

REID: Exactly. And so he`s carried over the -- the neoconservatives
baggage will be inescapable for Jeb Bush because again he has seen more the
intellectual in the family than his brother George and he was there in the
neoconservative fold before George Bush was.

SHARPTON: Now Abby, I get why Jeb wants to make a distinction between
himself and his brother but can he realistic do that?

HUNTSMAN: I mean, that`s the question everyone is asking. I come from one
of seven children. So I`m the first to say that you can be different from
your parents and you can be different from your siblings.

SHARPTON: All right.

HUNTSMAN: What I will say when you look at these group of advisers, and
now I was telling Joy this before we came on here, they`re not a lot of
people that understand the complexity of foreign policy, to understand our
world on the world stage. You may not agree with all of them but he also
has folks like Bob Delleck (ph) and Tom Ridge who -- who are not neocons,
who are also some of the smartest minds in the business.

And I think he said it right. I mean, totally he said it the right way.
He said, look, I admire my dad and brother in my service to this country
but I am my own man. So I think, he`s making it clear, that regardless of
who he surrounds himself with, regardless whether it`s his family or
adviser, he wants to be his own man. Running a politics (ph), I mean, he
might say before I agree with everything that they do. But when you start
running for president, time changed. This going to have to define where
those differences are. I don`t think we heard today in a speech, policy
wise where he is from the (INAUDIBLE).

SHARPTON: Well, I`ll get back to you on that. But Joy, he says he doesn`t
want to talk about the past but look at his advisers.

REID: Right. Exactly. And he`s got a lot of this, you know throwback
kind and I think the neocon piece of it is actually really important.
Because if you were to ask Jeb Bush, if you were president of the United
States after 9/11, would you have invaded Iraq? It`s going to be hard for
him to distance himself in that decision and say he wouldn`t have done
anything differently than George W. George W. Bush (INAUDIBLE)

SHARPTON: Or he`s going to have to start criticizing.

REID: Exactly.

SHARPTON: But look, let me go back to what you had said, Abby. You said
that he is going to have to distinguish and decide where he`s going to be
critical. He did criticize some of what his brother did but then turned it
into a critique of President Obama. Listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BUSH: There were mistakes made in Iraq for sure using the intelligence
capability that everybody embraced about weapons of mass destruction was
not turns out not to be accurate. Not creating an environment of security
after the successful taking out of Hussein was a mistake. But my brother`s
administration, through the surge, which was one of the most heroic acts of
courage politically that any presidents done. Because there was no support
for this and it was hugely successful and it created instability that when
the new president came in, he could have built on to create fragile but
more stable situation that would not have allowed for the void to be
filled. The void has been filled because we created the void.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SHARPTON: So Abby, Iraq is unstable because of President Obama, even
though President Bush is the one that led us in there, into war. I mean,
how is that work?

HUNTSMAN: I mean this is going to be the beginning for Jeb Bush. He`s
going to have to answer a lot of questions about the Iraq force simply
because he`s George Bush`s brother. What he`s doing here though, and
correct me if you disagree.


SHARPTON: We will.

HUNTSMAN: I think -- well, I`ll think he`s already running in the general
election. I think he`s bypassing the primary thing. I`m already going to
be the general election candidate. He`s being very bold. He`s letting
everyone sort of know the guy that he is, and he baggish (ph) that he has.
He talked about using drugs in the past.

That`s the sort of Jeb Bush that we`re seeing and the question I have is,
is there a path way for successor. Is there a way for to make it pass?
The prime is a lot of people compare him to my dad, because my dad is very
much that way. He was very open about who he was and was able to disagree
with people. The difference is from my dad, my dad got him blate (ph) and
he came in from serving the Democratic president. With Jeb Bush, I mean,
his starting very early, his going to have the money. He`s got name
recognition. He`s got support on the ground at somebody primary state. So
the question is, can he make it to the general election. But as you`re
saying he`s already running to general --

SHARPTON: And can he drag, not only the baggage of his name but the
identify what the policy that are parallel with that name, I mean, if you
can -- you can say as you, I`m a child among seven, you can`t say and I
want everybody to advise and let guided the other six on my team.

HUNTSMAN: Right.

SHARPTON: Without people saying, wait now what`s going on. And he`s oh
no, that`s the new president`s fault. Even though my brother is the one
that brought us in to Iraq.

REID: And think about the fact too, that one of the things that a lot of
animals would say brought George W. Bush down but then he stated to
incorporate some of the same neoconservative elements that were not
necessarily in his pocket before and they dragged his presidency away from
his com -- you know, low-key foreign policy that he was going to do some
sample (ph) foreign policy into these neoconservative ventures.

Jeb Bush was all in that. Jeb Bush was for that before his brother was.
And the other thing, if you unpacked what he said, he`s saying the surge
was heroic. This what they desperate attempt to extricate us from a war
that was in and out of itself not necessary and then after all that loss of
life and all that destruction, it was a Hail Mary to try to get us out of
the mess George W. Bush got us in. So is he saying that the idea of
invading Iraq was OK but not continuing to stay in Iraq forever and ever
and ever, which is what the neocon that they --

(CROSSTALK)

SHARPTON: But his big problem -- and I`m out of time -- the big problem,
also, is going to be getting by the primaries and one of the other
Republicans start hitting among us.

HUNTSMAN: It`s going to be a night. You know, and I hope he stays true.
He does not seem like the guy that`s going to pander that could hurt him.
But I hope that he stays true to who he is. Because definitely longer term
that was help.

SHARPTON: Well, he`s got three problems. He`s got a general, he`s got a
primary and he`s got thanksgiving dinner, you going to be careful on how he
deals with the members of his family.

Joy Reid and Abby Huntsman, thank you for your time tonight. Please sure
to watch Joy on "THE REID Report" weekdays at 2:00 p.m. Eastern. And stick
around right after that for Abby on "The Cycle." Weekdays at 3:00 p.m.
Eastern. Right here at MSNBC.

Still ahead, the stunning twist from that road rage shooting in Vegas. Was
the victim out looking for her killer before she died?

Also, we`ll look at the man in charge of stopping the next White House
security breach. Can he fix the secret service?

And the late-night revolution, one year into the Jimmy Fallon era, how`s he
redefined political comedy. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SHARPTON: The numbers are in and its diagnosis success for the Affordable
Care Act. 11.4 million people have signed up and are re-enrolled for
insurance plans under the ACA. That`s over two million more than the Obama
administration predicted.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OBAMA: The Affordable Care Act is working. It`s working a little better
than we anticipated, certainly working a lot better than many of the
critics talked about.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SHARPTON: Whoa, whoa, whoa. Wait a second, Mr. President. Do you mean to
tell me ObamaCare had critics early on?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. JOHN BOEHNER (R), OHIO: ObamaCare will ruin the best health care
system in the country.

UNIDENTIFIED MAN: Obamacare is a malignant tumor that is metastasizing and
consuming the liberty of the American people and it must be repealed.

REP. MICHELE BACHMANN (R), MINNESOTA: Let`s repeal this failure before it
literally kills women, kills children, kills senior citizens.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SHARPTON: And today, despite millions enrolled and GOP talking points,
they still pushed for repeal. They just took their 56th vote in the house
this month and the potential 2016 candidates just don`t get it either.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MAN: We need to repeal every word of ObamaCare.

UNIDENTIFIED MAN: ObamaCare is a disaster.

UNIDENTIFIED MAN: We must repeal ObamaCare and its entirety.

UNIDENTIFIED MAN: We must repeal ObamaCare and replace it.

UNIDENTIFIED MAN: ObamaCare restricts freedom and must be repealed.

GOV. CHRIS CHRISTIE (R), NEW JERSEY: I think what we need to do is to
start over.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SHARPTON: Never fear, Dr. Sharpton is here. All they need is an eye exam
because the ACA is working and it`s time the GOP sees it. Did they not
think we would notice their prescription for bitter pills has expired?
Nice try. But here`s a dose of reality. We gotcha.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SHARPTON: It`s time for the justice files. Joining me now, criminal
defense Attorney Eric Guster and former prosecutor and host of "Judge
Faith," Faith Jenkins. Thank you both for being here tonight.

FAITH JENKINS, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Thanks, Rev.

ERIC GUSTER, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Thank you.

SHARPTON: Up first, a mother gunned down outside her house after a road
rage fight. Tammy Meyers was driving last week in Las Vegas when someone
almost hit her. A daughter reached over and honked the horn and then
argument broke out. But there`s some new information we`re learning in
this case. After that argument, Meyers drove home, dropped off her
daughter and picked up her son who had a gun. They followed the other
driver for about ten minutes and went back home. But when they got there,
police say the other driver pulled up and started firing, killing Meyers,
her son Brandon fired back without hitting anyone. At a vigil for Meyers
last night, Brandon said he would do it all again.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BRANDON MEYERS, VICTIM`S SON: I did what I had to do to protect my family.
Everyone can think what they have to think. I did it for a reason. And I
would do it for anyone all over.

UNIDENTIFIED WOMAN: She did everything she possibly could to protect me
and I love her so much.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SHARPTON: The sketch is the best hope police have for identifying and
finding the shooter. But Faith, if they do find him, does he have a case?
Could self-defense be a factor?

JENKINS: I don`t think so. There`s so many questions here. How does this
family go home and then she picks up this -- moms picks up her son who has
a gun. How do they find this other car who they have this argument with
and follow the car for ten minutes?

SHARPTON: Right.

JENKINS: And then how does that person in that car then get to their home?
I`m assuming they followed this mother and her son back to her house.
Here`s the issue with self-defense. You can`t pursue someone who is
retreating, even if there`s a dispute, Rev, if that dispute is over and
this mother and son went back home --

SHARPTON: Right. Which means the dispute was over.

JENKINS: It`s over, they went back home, you can`t then pursue them, shoot
and kill a person and then say, oh, I had to defend myself. Self-defense
is about you being in eminent fear of great bodily harm or dying.

SHARPTON: But Eric, suppose if he says, would they come after me with a
gun, they threatened they would come back, I thought that I had to kill
them to stop them from coming back.

GUSTER: And that`s what I think will happen. Reverend Al, guns make
people bold, they made wimped super bowl. This woman went home and got her
son with a gun, then went after this guy. They are totally at fault
because she didn`t call police. She didn`t -- she didn`t alert the
authorities, hey, someone was harassing me. She went to the fight. Now, I
don`t know if his self-defense claim will hold up but he definitely will
have some mitigation being that they came after him first.

JENKINS: Well, we don`t even know -- all the police said is that the son
had a gun. We don`t know if he brandished it. We don`t know if the other
driver knew that he had a weapon, no they shouldn`t have followed them.

GUSTER: This is beyond following. They went home and got the gun.

SHARPTON: But the tape we played of the son said, he said, I did what I
had to do, I would do it --

JENKINS: Which makes no sense.

SHARPTON: The inference is, if I`m the shooter and I`m caught is he
admitted he did something.

JENKINS: Well, they followed whoever the shooter was for ten minutes.
What were they doing? Driving around stalking this guy? It makes no
sense.

SHARPTON: Yes, but the big question is, how they knew how to find him?

JENKINS: Right.

SHARPTON: I mean, was he waiting on them to got me to --

JENKINS: There`s more to the story there. There`s more facts that will
going to come out.

SHARPTON: All right. Let`s move on to the "American Sniper" trial in
Texas. Today was the first full day of testimony for Eddie Ray Routh and
his defense team. His lawyers have to convince a jury that he did not know
right from wrong when he shot the movie`s real-life hero and his friend.
Today, his sister testified that Routh was not himself when he came to her
house after the shooting. She says he was talking about pigs sucking his
soul. At first she didn`t believe him when he said he killed two people.
Routh pleaded not guilty to killing Chris Kyle and his friend Chad
Littlefield in 2013. The friends agreed to meet Routh at a gun range to
try to help with his PTSD. Eric, how`s the defense doing?

GUSTER: The defense is doing a decent job. When you look at the totality
of the evidence, they have the murder victims actually texting back and
forth saying, this guy is crazy. Then they are presenting evidence that he
was not himself and they are going to present more evidence, I would
suspect that he had PTSD to the level for he did not account for his
actions. So it`s a very interesting case, to say the least, because
there`s so many factors involved in it. PTSD, they are war veterans and I
think they are doing a pretty decent job.

SHARPTON: You know he mentioned this, Faith, Eric did about the texting
and a key moment came when the defense in the opening statement claimed
Routh`s insanity was evidenced in those texts, that Kyle and Littlefield
sent right before the shooting. After meeting Routh, Kyle sent Littlefield
a text, quote, "This dude is straight up nuts." Littlefield responded,
"He`s right behind me. Watch my six." That`s military talk for watch my
back. How important is this case? Could it help the defense case?

JENKINS: It`s definitely going to help their case. I mean, that speaks to
the defendant`s state of mind right before he shot and killed Kyle and his
friend. And it`s not just about one piece of evidence like that text
message. It`s not just about one -- witness, that the defense is doing,
they are building. They have their fact witnesses, like the defendant`s
sister, they are putting on first to speak about his state of mind.

SHARPTON: Right.

JENKINS: And then you have the two individuals who were killed who spoke
about his state of mind, he was not in the right frame of mind. And then
you are going to have their experts, their experts will then going to come
in and talk about he was in the middle of a psychotic break. The jury at
the end of this case I think they`re going to find, if this guy did suffer
from a mental illness and the question is going to be, did he know what he
was doing was wrong when he pulled the trigger?

SHARPTON: Well, we`re going to keep following both of these big cases.
I`m going to have to leave it there. Eric Guster and Faith Jenkins, thank
you for your time tonight.

JENKINS: Thank you, Rev.

GUSTER: Thank you.

SHARPTON: Straight ahead, Hollywood star Kristen Bell speaks out on the
vaccination debate.

And Jimmy Fallon kicks off year two on "The Tonight Show." "Conversation
Nation" is next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SHARPTON: It`s time for "Conversation Nation." Joining me tonight, radio
host Stephanie Miller, democratic strategist Jimmy Williams and MSNBC
contributor Maria Teresa Kumar. Thank you for being with me tonight.

JIMMY WILLIAMS, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Thank you.

STEPHANIE MILLER, SIRIUS XM RADIO HOST: Thanks, Rev.

MARIA TERESA KUMAR, MSNBC CONTRIBUTOR: Thanks, Rev.

SHARPTON: First up, the GOP reaction to a court ruling from a republican-
appointed judge temporarily blocking President Obama`s action on
immigration. The President`s executive action would keep millions of
undocumented immigrants from being deported. But that hasn`t stopped the
GOP from trying to reverse it. Ted Cruz spoke about it today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. TED CRUZ (R), TEXAS: This victory this week, the decision from the
federal court was a major victory for the rule of law. All of us have
reason to be proud that Texas led the way, standing up to President Obama`s
illegal and unconstitutional executive amnesty.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SHARPTON: Maria, it`s an historic executive action. Five million people
are impacted and the GOP is touting this judge as a hero? I mean, what do
you make of that?

KUMAR: I caution them on being so giddy when it comes to families and
parents from their children, when you`re talking about the executive
actions, the three to five million is true that it`s unprecedented but he`s
not the first president that actually has ruled a temporary, Reverend,
temporary rule of law. This actually dates back to Eisenhower and pretty
much every president successfully has used their discretion to identify
what group of immigrants will actually have temporary relief until the
republicans get their action, their action order. This is pretty much the
only thing that the President can do right now. And again, it`s a
temporary relief. It`s an permanent --

SHARPTON: Jimmy, aside from the legalities, which it is temporary,
politically, I mean, the republicans really want to act as though this
judge is a hero and this temporary stop is something that will help them
politically?

WILLIAMS: Well, Senator Cruz who is actually an immigrant, he was born in
Canada, and so when he left another nation and moved to the United States
as an immigrant and became a U.S. citizen because of his parents, what
happened there basically is, he is now a naturalized person, right? He`s
now an American. That`s a fascinating thing because that is not what
President Obama`s executive order actually did. All it did was say, you
cannot separate an American-born child from their parent who was not born
in a foreign country.

SHARPTON: Right. That`s all it did.

WILLIAMS: It`s really that simple. So that`s the legality of it. You
asked me about the optics, the politics. The politics are actually
simpler. If the Republican Party is going to put Ted Cruz, not McCarthy,
up as the spokesman for immigration reform, they are making a massive
mistake. By 2040, there will be over 100 million more Latinos in the
United States by birth not by immigration. I assumed that Ted Cruz, he
will be a pretty old man by that point and when that`s the case, he will be
like, oh, I know, the majority of country. That`s not the way for the
republicans to expand their base. They`re making a huge mistake.

SHARPTON: Stephanie, your read on this, Stephanie?

MILLER: Well, let me just say Ted Cruz gives me a giant headache in my
eye.

SHARPTON: In your eye?

MILLER: And I think other republican colleagues share my thoughts on that.
You know, you guys are all right. As the President said, he`s on the right
side of history with this. Most legal experts say he`s well within his
authority and I think that`s the way it`s going to play out and I think,
you know, everybody makes a good point about demographically, they are on
the wrong side of this, on the wrong side of human compassion, of families.

SHARPTON: All of it?

MILLER: Yes. All of it.

SHARPTON: Wait a minute. Let me move on because I want to cover a couple
of things in the time we have. I want to move on to celebrities speaking
out on the vaccination debate. It`s become a political hot potato for
republicans, like Chris Christie and Rand Paul. But Hollywood star Kristen
Bell is telling the world, if you`re not vaccinated, stay away from my
family. Bell says she insists that anyone who wants to hold their baby
must have the whooping cough vaccine saying, quote, "it`s very simple
logic. I believe in trusting doctors, not know-it-alls." Stephanie, a big
celebrity speaks out. Your take on this?

MILLER: I got to say, I`m out here in Hollywood, Rev, it drives me insane.
You can`t cure an infectious disease with kale or a rubeola. You need to
get your child vaccinated. A jojoba oil is not going to do the trick.
These are diseases that we have eradicated already. And there`s a 98
percent non-vaccination rate in some pre-schools in Santa Monica, it`s
ridiculous.

SHARPTON: Maria?

KUMAR: Reverend, this is really a high-class problem. You have countries
all over the world, third world countries that mother will walk miles to
get their kids vaccinated and here we actually think that it`s a luxury of
a choice when you`re actually try to infect.

SHARPTON: Yes.

KUMAR: I mean, high-five to Kristen Bell. This is exactly the
conversation that we need to have and I mean, the leadership where we don`t
have normally coming out of Washington, we`re not having that leadership.
We`re having it out of Hollywood.

SHARPTON: That`s an excellent point about others walking miles to get it.
Everybody, stay with me. We`ll be right back with Jimmy Fallon changing
late night one year after taking over "The Tonight Show."

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SHARPTON: Back with more "Conversation Nation," Stephanie, Jimmy and Maria
are here. Finally tonight, "The Tonight Show" where Jimmy Fallon kicks off
year number two tonight. Last night the show celebrated one year on the
air and in that year Jimmy redefine the role of late night host. From
bringing it back to New York City, to singing in sketch with world famous
musicians to somehow getting a-list celebrities to do really goofy things
on national TV.

Jimmy, what do you think, Jimmy, about how Jimmy Fallon has reshaped the
legendary show?

WILLIAMS: Listen. He`s brought a young energy to it and it appeals across
all demographics. My favorite was when he, I was in the audience when he
had sting on and sting had to do cell phone rings with his songs. And it
was brilliant. The audience was like transfixed by it. And listen, Jimmy
Fallon is going to be around for a long time and we`re proud to have him
obviously as an NBC family. But he brings something new to that show and I
think it`s a wonderful, wonderful thing for again, every -- kids can watch
that show. Older people can watch that show. That tells you everything
you need to know about what he`s doing.

SHARPTON: Stephanie, what do you think? You`re out there in Hollywood?

MILLER: I am in Hollywood so I have to name drop, Steven Steal (ph) is a
friend of mine. So, that clip that you showed when he played Neil Young
and then you saw the real, you know, Crosby steals the Nash comes up behind
him, it was hilarious. And of course when the President slow jammed with
them on the old show, we have the coolest, funniest president ever. I`m
sorry.

(LAUGHTER)

SHARPTON: Yes, Maria, 30 seconds.

KUMAR: I think that`s absolutely right. When he does that, he bridges
generation and demographics and he knows what funny is and that`s basically
what is the root of his brilliance, is that he`s able to do that.

SHARPTON: And he`s a genuinely nice guy.

(TALKING OVER EACH OTHER)

MILLER: He really is.

SHARPTON: Stephanie, Jimmy and Maria, thank you for joining "Conversation
Nation".

WILLIAMS: Thanks.

KUMAR: Thanks, Reverend.

SHARPTON: When we come back, one of the toughest jobs in America was
filled today. That`s next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SHARPTON: Finally tonight, finding the right person for one of the
toughest jobs in America, protecting the President. President Obama is
naming a 30-year veteran of the secret service, Joseph Clancy, as the new
permanent head of the agency he has his work cut out for him. Last year a
man hopped the White House fence and got all the way inside the executive
mansion while carrying a three-and-a-half inch knife. And last month, this
drone landed on the White House lawn renewing questions about the repeated
failure of the Secret Service.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: The agency has suffered a series of embarrassments
in recent years, starting in 2009 when the Salahis, a reality show couple
crashed President Obama`s first state dinner and as "The Washington Post"
just reported, in 2011, it took four days for agents to discover a gunman`s
bullets had hit the residence. A tipping point came in 2012 when several
agents were fired after soliciting prostitutes on an official trip to
Colombia.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SHARPTON: Now, it`s up to Joseph Clancy to fix the secret service, he
served on President Obama`s personal detail and has protected presidents of
both parties. Americans need to know that their presidents are safe. And
Mr. Clancy must now restore the public`s trust in the Secret Service.

Thanks for watching. I`m Al Sharpton. "HARDBALL" starts right now.


THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY
BE UPDATED.
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