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'Scarborough Country' for Nov. 4th

Read the transcript to the Friday show

Guests: Allison DuBois, Lisa DePaulo, Anthony Swofford, James Zogby, Bradley Whitford, Kellyanne Conway, Bradley Whitford

JOE SCARBOROUGH, HOST:  Tonight‘s top headlines: political fires at home and abroad.  Protests break out in Argentina, as President Bush arrives today, this as critics at home are now demanding the president apologize for his administration‘s conduct in the CIA leak probe.  We literally have an all-star panel to separate fact from fiction. 

Then, the TV show “West Wing” is gearing up for its live debate this Sunday night.  We are going to get a preview.  And I‘m going to give them a few pointers about live TV.  Yes, right.

Welcome to a special West Coast edition of SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY—no tie required, only common sense allowed.   

ANNOUNCER:  From the press room, to the courtroom, to the halls of Congress, Joe Scarborough has seen it all.  Welcome to SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (singing):  California, California, here we come.

SCARBOROUGH:  That‘s actually some good music on our show.  That‘s surprising.  My kids will be impressed. 

Thanks for being with us tonight.  We are coming to you live from beautiful downtown Burbank.  And we are going to be talking an awful lot of what‘s going to be going on coming up this weekend Sunday night on “West Wing.”  I don‘t know if you have been following “West Wing” this year.  I‘m telling you, this show has just been on fire.  It is must-see TV.  It‘s really—it‘s the one show that I make sure I watch every week.  It is great. 

And, tonight, we are going to be talking about what‘s going on Sunday night. 

We are also going to be talking about “Jarhead,” which opens today.  It gives a really hard look at the Marines in the first Gulf War.  And we are going to be talking to the Marine turned author who lived that story.  That‘s going to be coming up.

But, first, over 1,000 protesters battled police in Argentina today, hurling Molotov cocktails, trashing stores and rioting, all in anger over President Bush‘s arrival for the Summit of Americas.  Is this yet another sign of how far the presidency of George W. Bush fallen?  And what does it mean for America‘s image overseas?

Meanwhile, back in Washington, with one senior White House official already indicted and more charges possibly on the way, some are asking whether the president should apologize to the American people for a scandal surrounding the CIA leak investigation.  The president was asked that question today when he met with reporters at the summit in Argentina. 


GEORGE W. BUSH, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES:  The way you earn credibility with the American people is to set a clear agenda that everybody can understand, an agenda that relates to their lives, and get the job done.  And the agenda that I‘m working on now is one that is important to the American people. 


SCARBOROUGH:  What do the president‘s problems at home and abroad say about his standing after five years in office?

Let‘s bring in a very special all-star panel with us tonight.  From the NBC hit show “The West Wing,” we have executive producers Lawrence O‘Donnell and Ron Silver, who plays Bruno Gianelli.  And also with us, Bradley Whitford, who plays Josh Lyman on the show, and also Kellyanne Conway, CEO of the Polling Company.

Bradley, I want to start with you. 

BRADLEY WHITFORD, ACTOR:  Obviously, you are a crack adviser in “The West Wing.”  But you know an awful lot about politics, too.  If George W.  Bush were on “The West Wing” and he‘s sitting there...


WHITFORD:  We would be canceled. 


SCARBOROUGH:  His approval rating—be nice. 


SCARBOROUGH:  His approval rating is at 39 percent, disapproval at 60 point , what advice do you give him to turn things around? 

WHITFORD:  Well, you know, I—I just play a politician on TV.

But I would think, at this point, he has to try something else.  And I do think, as a citizen, that it‘s his obligation now, as somebody who said they were going to restore honor to the White House, to do this.  It seems to me that there is, strategically, a kind of a dual don‘t get caught in the cover-up thing, yet extend the investigation as long as you can, sort of the way Clinton did, so that people could get used to the fact that he‘s done something awful.

SCARBOROUGH:  OK.  Hold on a second, Bradley.

If I‘m the president with a 39 percent approval rating, and I ask you how I turn things around and you give me this speech, I‘m going to fire you. 



SCARBOROUGH:  So, you step forward, baby, and tell me.  I‘m at 39 percent.

WHITFORD:  Go out now and apologize. 



SCARBOROUGH:  I‘m not asking you—they‘re rioting overseas.  At home, I‘m having problems every day.  What do I do?  How do I turn it around?

WHITFORD:  Change your haircut. 


SCARBOROUGH:  OK.  What‘s the next thing I do?  That‘s been there for a long time.

WHITFORD:  I would tell him to go out.  I think he has to fire some people in the White House and make it look like it sunk in that this matters to him. 


SCARBOROUGH:  Fire some people and apologize.

Lawrence O‘Donnell, I will ask you the same question.  What does the president need to do to turn things around?  It‘s certainly can‘t get much worse for him. 


Well, I think two things were driving his numbers down before we got to the Libby indictment.  One was obviously the Social Security plan.  The longer he tried to get that Social Security plan across, the more it was actually pushing his approval numbers down.  So, he doesn‘t really have a legislative maneuver to propose to get out of this. 

Then Katrina came along.  He has actually been doing everything he can to counter the imagery that was developed in that week in neglect in Katrina. 


SCARBOROUGH:  But nothing is breaking through, Lawrence.

O‘DONNELL:  I think what he has to do, first of all, Joe, is give a—a somewhat humble speech about Iraq. 

The poll numbers that are out today are very interesting.  There is a majority—it‘s about 51, 52 percent—who believe we should stay in Iraq, even though they believe we should not have gone there in the first place.  And I think that‘s an opening dialogue position for the president, to recognize that people have changed their minds about the validity of the enterprise in Iraq. 

And he doesn‘t have to change his mind about it, but he has to learn how to talk to the people who regret that we went in, but support him in staying in, which is where we are now.  He has got to find the language to talk to those people and make them feel like—that the way they think about this is included in the way he thinks about it, but it‘s not exactly the way he thinks about it, but he understands their approach to it. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Certainly understands that there are two Americas, and people have very different views. 

Ron Silver, the president says he doesn‘t read them, but there are two new polls out that certainly has the West Wing‘s attention tonight.  In the first, Mr. Bush‘s approval ratings are at their lowest points in his presidency.  Only 39 percent of Americans say they approve of the president‘s performance, while a full 60 percent say they disapprove.  That‘s ugly.

Meanwhile, in a remarkable development tonight, 58 percent say they question the president‘s integrity, while only 40 percent consider him to be honest and trustworthy.  That is a 13 percent drop over the last eight months. 

Ron Silver, what does the president need to do to turn things around? 

RON SILVER, ACTOR:  I—you know what?  Given his personality, I don‘t think he is going to do the kind of dramatic things that opponents and other people want him to do. 

This is a president that may or may not read polls, but he certainly does not govern by polls.  He looks to history.  He knows that Harry Truman left a very unpopular president.  He also knows that Harry Truman is regarded by history as a very strong, convictional president.  And I think President Bush sees himself that kind of president. 

He doesn‘t take positions, he doesn‘t policies that will make him popular.  He does what he thinks is right.  So, it‘s very hard, very hard to—to discern what somebody who thinks they are right and who has made some hard decisions and doesn‘t care whether they‘re popular or not—it‘s very hard to know what they are going to do. 

But Ken Duberstein wrote a very interesting article the other day about second-term malaise, that, in the best of administrations, there is a letdown in the second term.  And, sometimes, looking at some new people to reenergize, bring in some new ideas—it‘s also a very fatiguing role for people to be in those jobs for four, five, six, seven years.  So, he might be looking at that.  But I—I think, overall, he is looking to history as vindication. 


You know, Kellyanne Conway, when Harry Truman left office, he had a 25 percent approval rating.  And, yet, most people consider, 50 years later, Truman to be one of the best presidents of the 20th century.  And there are always problems in second terms.  Ronald Reagan, obviously, in ‘86, ‘87, had a terrible time.

But Reagan had no problem coming out, making fun of himself, talking about the mistakes that he made.  I mean, Reagan would always joke, you know what, hard work never killed anybody, but I‘m not taking any chances. 


SCARBOROUGH:  George Bush can‘t make light of himself.  He can‘t apologize.  It seems that the people around him are so insular, the whole system is so insular, there is no way he can bring in new people and apologize and make the dramatic change that some people thinks he needs to make. 

CONWAY:  What he should do, though, is go back to his base. 

I mean, Joe, if your disapproval rating is at 60 percent, it necessarily, numerically, includes self-identified Republicans, self-identified conservatives, people who voted for you over Kerry just a year ago. 

So, I would say the first thing the president needs to do to improve his approval ratings is to go back to his base and answer their aggravation over no reduced spending, no reduced taxes, a poor immigration policy.  You have got to keep your family happy first.  And then you go around. 

And let me say, let me give a shout-out.  It has been 25 years ago today that Ronald Reagan was elected.  So, that‘s within everybody‘s lifetime, that the game plan is there.  I agree with you completely. 

And I really like being your dork in New York today, while you guys are having fun in Hollywood. 


CONWAY:  But he has got to go back to his—Ron, come back to New York.

He has got to go back to his base first and make everybody happy.  That disapproval rating is both genders.  It‘s a tripartisan disapproval rating.  That‘s what remarkable about it.  Now, none of those people are going to go—in his base—are going to go and vote for Hillary Clinton in 2008.

But there is a very important election a year from now.  And I wonder how many congressmen, some of your former colleagues, right now want the president in their districts. 

SCARBOROUGH:  I remember 1994, when I ran, Bradley, for Congress, Democrats were saying that they were going to put anti-aircraft weapons on borders if Bill Clinton tried to come into their states to campaign for them.

Republicans have to be feeling the same way about George W. Bush right now in most parts of America, because he is not seen as a conservative by a lot of conservatives out there. 

WHITFORD:  No.  I think he, from my point of view, has always seemed to me to be not a conservative, a radical right-wing president, who now seems to be incompetent. 

I just want to say something to what Ron Silver was saying, which is this guy is not guided by polls.  I think that is the most absurd statement I have ever heard.  This guy has a political nanny, who everybody, even his supporters, Karl Rove, acknowledge that George Bush would be nowhere without this guy.  He does operate by polls. 

Look at—look at the Supreme Court decision, in withdrawing that nomination.  And the—what they have done is manipulate to get poll numbers, so that he can go in and, based on misinformation, go to war, tell us that these tax cuts aren‘t going to result in a deficit.  I think it‘s always been a horse race between political acumen and bankrupt policies. 

Attacking Iraq was not the right answer for 9/11.  And these economic policies are going to leave us bankrupt. 

SCARBOROUGH:  You know, Lawrence, speaking of Harry Truman, there was a story of Truman stepping off the train while he was going on his Whistle Stop Tour in ‘48. 

Guy came up to him, stuck his finger in his chest, said, I think you are the worst president in the history of the United States.  If you don‘t get defeated, this country is doomed. 

Truman turns to his aide and says, we will put him down as an undecided. 

I think we can put Bradley as an—likewise, as an undecided when it comes the George W. Bush. 


O‘DONNELL:  No, but, Joe, Joe?



O‘DONNELL:  Joe, you are getting a feel of what it‘s like on the set when Brad Whitford and Ron Silver are in a scene together.  When you say cut, that‘s when the fight really starts.

WHITFORD:  That‘s where the fights start.


SILVER:  Joe, Joe, let me respond to Bradley for a minute. 

WHITFORD:  You don‘t need to respond, Ron.

SILVER:  One of the reasons the Democrats—I know I don‘t.  But you know what?  I‘m going to anyway.


SILVER:  One of the reason the Democrats are in trouble and the opponents of the president are in trouble is, rather than respond substantively, they conflate a lot of things.  They go on ad hominem attacks.

The visceral dislike of George Bush is so toxic to them on some level, that they do not engage in any conversation about substance.  For instance, Fitzgerald went out of his way to say this indictment, please, whether you are a proponent or opponent of the war, don‘t make anything bigger off it.  It has nothing to do with the war. 

Fitzgerald, who is universally lauded as a prosecutor, went out of his way to say that.  It did not stop Howard Dean or the Brad Whitfords of the world from going on...

SCARBOROUGH:  Oh, it‘s getting ugly.

SILVER:  ... the attack and conflating issues and misrepresenting things.


WHITFORD:  The Brad Whitfords of the world.


SCARBOROUGH:  Howard Dean, the guy that runs the party? 


CONWAY:  Well, you‘re in good company.

SCARBOROUGH:  A guy that plays an adviser.  That‘s great. 

Hey, thanks a lot.  We are going to—we are—I will tell you what.

We are going to talk about your TV show when we come back. 

You all stick around.  We are going to be right back with more SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY when we return. 


SCARBOROUGH:  Stick around, because, coming up, we are live from Los Angeles, going to be talking to the cast of “The West Wing” about a live debate coming up Sunday night that you‘re not going to want to miss—that and much more when we return.



JIMMY SMITS, ACTOR:  If we can have a real debate on the issues, just you and me. 

ALAN ALDA, ACTOR:  How‘s Sunday night? 


SCARBOROUGH:  And Sunday night, it will be, live, 8:00 Eastern on NBC.

We are back with the executive producer of “The West Wing,” Lawrence O‘Donnell, as well as two cast members, Ron Silver and Bradley Whitford, also Kellyanne Conway.

Let—I want to talk to you, Lawrence.

This is a big risk, isn‘t it?  I mean, everybody knows these Hollywood actors can only read lines after they do like 15 or 20 takes. 


SCARBOROUGH:  But, my God, I mean, look at Ron Silver.  I mean, we had some puppet dog on that mopped him up when we were at the conventions.  Why are you doing this? 


SILVER:  Triumph.  Thank you, Joe.  Thank you for reminding me about Triumph.


O‘DONNELL:  What do these actors know about politics, right? 


O‘DONNELL:  Well, it turns out Alan Alda knows an awful lot.  And so does Jimmy Smits.

And, as—as the candidates in the show, with their handlers—you know, Brad Whitford is Jimmy Smits‘ handler—and Ron Silver is Alan Alda‘s handler—they have really been learning these issues even more than they knew them before they came into the show. 

And so, if you want to get into a conversation with Alan Alda about how we should finance Medicare long term, he can do that now.  And so he‘s going to be able to handle himself in this debate.  And Jimmy is going to be able to handle themselves.

And they know the issues from their side of the—you know, the Democrat and the Republican.  They know them very, very well.  And they are up there throwing their punches now.  They have rehearsed it a little bit.  And they are deep into it.  They really know what they are doing. 

There is nothing that is going to throw those two actors. 

However, with Ron Silver doing one of those high-speed walk-and-talks live on TV, I‘m not sure he isn‘t going to bump into a wall and trip and fall downstairs.


SCARBOROUGH:  That‘s going to be ugly.

O‘DONNELL:  That‘s going to be the fun thing to watch.  Let‘s see if Ron can actually do his stuff without falling down the stairs. 

SILVER:  Yes.  I‘m terrified. 


WHITFORD:  It would horrible if you screwed up, Ron.  It would just break my heart. 


SCARBOROUGH:  Just horrible.

Hey, Lawrence, you warned me about this season last year.  When we were talking, you said, you have got to see this.  This is going to be something.  And I will tell you.  “West Wing” really is—it‘s about as exciting to watch this year as it has been, I would say, in four or five seasons.  It‘s—I don‘t know if it‘s Alan Alda.  I don‘t know if it‘s Jimmy Smits.  I don‘t know what it is.

Of course, these two great actors that are with us also.  But what‘s so special about this season?  Why is it popping?  Why is it working so well? 

O‘DONNELL:  Well, I think, Joe, throwing the show into a presidential campaign and really going into the campaign in detail is what has given the show its new energy.  And we have added some cast members who are just incredible. 

To be able to get Jimmy Smits to do another TV show, to get Alan Alda into another TV show is not easy.  And they come in to a show that is anchored by people like Brad Whitford, with guests like Ron Silver coming in every other week.  It is just the best cast on television.  It‘s got the best directors on television. 

And it really now has an energy that it really had needed at this point.  And it‘s really flying.  It‘s really been great.

SCARBOROUGH:  And, as Bradley tells me, the reason why Silver is only on every other week is because, of course, he is running the Christian Coalition on alternating weeks. 


SCARBOROUGH:  Kellyanne Conway, what does Washington, D.C., think about “The West Wing”? 

CONWAY:  Oh, they all pretend not to watch it, the way they pretend...


CONWAY:  ... the way they pretend not to read polls.  And I bet you, if you caught them—if you reversed their TiVo and caught them on camera, if you put a nanny-cam in most of their houses, you would find them chomping on the popcorn as they read the poll with one hand, watching your show with the other.

Look, it‘s a hit.  And it‘s not just a cult favorite inside the beltway.  So many Americans right now have politics as their hobby.  They are voyeurs, if you will, to the political system.  They pay attention because they are concerned about serious issues.

But it also—it just is the headlines.  It‘s the bylines, the headlines in all of our news coverage everywhere in this country.  So, I have to credit.  I have to say, so many things are real to life.  I definitely think you need on-air pollsters more often.  I have got a good idea where you can find a few. 



CONWAY:  But the treatment—the treatment of some of the issues and I think the parity with which both political parties are portrayed in a place called Hollywood is commendable. 

SCARBOROUGH:  That‘s what I wanted to say, Ron Silver.

You know, it used to be I couldn‘t watch a lot of...

CONWAY:  Right. 

SCARBOROUGH:  ... political stuff that came out of Hollywood, unless I went ahead and put my goggles on and was ready to be—see Republicans called racists and homophobes and close-minded types.

But there is such a changing dynamic, whether you look at what “West Wing” is doing this year or other political movies.  There is so much more nuance there.  There is an understanding that there are two sides of the story.  And that‘s what I—that‘s what I think it makes it so great.  Why is that happening now? 

SILVER:  Oh, it‘s very interesting. 

Lawrence is probably the best person to answer this question.  But, years ago, the idea of having a show about politics or based on Washington mores and politics in Washington was anathema to the networks.  And then “West Wing” came along.  And now it‘s becoming not only doable, but people are replicating what “West Wing” does in many ways. 

I think a lot of that has to do with cable TV.  A lot of it has to do with the electorate‘s sophistication now.  Your other guest mentioned about how it has become a hobby, an avocation for a lot of people in this country.  So, I think the environment now is more embracing of this type of show. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Let‘s take a look at a Zogby poll on the presidential race between the Republican senator and the Democratic congressman, Matthew Santos.  Over 4,000 Americans took part in this poll.


SCARBOROUGH:  If they had it their way, it would be a landslide. 

Santos gets 59 percent, Jimmy Smits, to Alan Alda‘s 29 percent. 

You know what?  Maybe that‘s why Alan Alda always knew it was probably safest to be a Democratic.

WHITFORD:  I think it is time for Vinick to fire a handler or two. 


CONWAY:  Yes, but that‘s surprising, because the guy with the most hair usually wins.  So, that‘s an outlier.


SILVER:  Joe, let me ask you a question.  How did Zogby do in 2004 in Ohio?



SCARBOROUGH:  Oh, that hurts.

SILVER:  Where was Zogby on that? 

SCARBOROUGH:  Well, you know what?  You know what we are going to do. 

You have just stepped into it.  I‘m going to bring Mr. Zogby in right now. 


SCARBOROUGH:  You conducted the poll.  I want you to defend your—you see these Hollywood actors.  You know, it‘s all about me.

Come on, John.  Defend yourself. 

JOHN ZOGBY, PRESIDENT & CEO, ZOGBY INTERNATIONAL:  I‘m going to say, first of all, I don‘t care what Ron Silver has to say about anything.  That‘s what he said on the show. 

SILVER:  Ad hominem.  Ad hominem.

SCARBOROUGH:  What about the poll that you took here?  Tell us about it. 

ZOGBY:  Well, we did a poll back in May. 

And Matt Santos was ahead by double digits back then, too.  You know, this is still a liberal audience.  We applied some weights to try to even out Democrats and Republicans, liberals and conservatives.  But the typical viewer of “The West Wing” really tilts to the left.  And so, no matter how many weights you applied, it‘s a combination of liking Jimmy Smits, the actor, and then also liking the fact that he identifies with Democratic base issues, as do most viewers. 

SCARBOROUGH:  So, you‘re looking pretty good going in...


WHITFORD:  I take nothing for granted. 

O‘DONNELL:  I have actually read the Zogby poll.  I read the Zogby poll.

And it says, I think—John, correct me about this—that about 70 percent believe that Jimmy Smits, Santos, would stop and help them if they had trouble with their car.  And about 10 percent believe that the Republican would do that.  Isn‘t that what the poll says? 


ZOGBY:  That‘s exactly what the poll says. 

SILVER:  Mr. Zogby, you knew I was kidding around. 

Mr. Zogby knows I was kidding around, doesn‘t he?

CONWAY:  Oh.  When is the last time Hollywood drove themselves anywhere? 

SCARBOROUGH:  Art imitating life.


SCARBOROUGH:  So, Bradley, you have got to be pretty—your candidate is doing fairly well? 

WHITFORD:  Yes.  And I‘m hoping, not only for the good of the country, but to take us all to the promised land of syndication, I think it bodes well. 


SCARBOROUGH:  All right. 

Well, good luck.

WHITFORD:  Thank you. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Do you have to run with a cell phone or do anything where you may trip up on Sunday night?

WHITFORD:  No cell phone running.

SCARBOROUGH:  OK.  Very good.  Very good.


SCARBOROUGH:  Hey, thanks a lot so much to everybody.  Very excited about the show coming up Sunday night.  Make sure you watch it, “The West Wing,” 8:00 p.m. Eastern on NBC.

Coming up next, we are going to be talking to the author of “Jarhead” about the movie, the Marines and the media—coming up.

And amazing new information about the day Marilyn Monroe died and her plans to marry a guy named Joe—Joe DiMaggio.

That and much more coming up when SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY returns.


SCARBOROUGH:  When we come back, her death is one of the enduring mysteries in Hollywood, but we have got new information on her final minutes.  That‘s coming up. 

But, first, here is the latest news you and your family need to know. 


SCARBOROUGH:  A little later, meet the woman who inspired the hit NBC show “Medium.”  She sees dead people and tries to use her gift to help the living.

And an explosive new article with new details about the final hours of Marilyn Monroe‘s life.  We are going to be talking to the investigative reporter who has got that new information.

Welcome back to SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY—those stories in just minutes. 

But, first, the movie “Jarhead.”  It‘s about a Marine sniper in the first Gulf War.  And it opens today in theaters across America.

MSNBC entertainment anchor Sharon Tay has the scoop. 


SHARON TAY, MSNBC ENTERTAINMENT CORRESPONDENT (voice-over):  “Jarhead” is a different kind of war movie, but, then again, the first battle in the Gulf was a different kind of war. 


UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR:  I hear they shipped in 100,000 body bags. 

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR:  Do those things come in sizes?

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR:  What difference does it make?

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR:  I just want to a good fit, bro. 


TAY:  Jake Gyllenhaal plays Jake Gyllenhaal, the real-life Marine who prepared for the fight of his life during Operation Desert Shield. 


JAKE GYLLENHAAL, ACTOR:  The earth is bleeding. 

JAMIE FOXX, ACTOR:  You better get used to it, because we are going to living in it.


GYLLENHAAL:  To me, that was just a fascinating character to play.  It wasn‘t somebody who was like pro something or con something or something put simply.  It was living in the gray. 


GYLLENHAAL:  I hear their bombs and I‘m afraid. 


GYLLENHAAL:  There was also a sense of getting to recognize my anger and my aggression and like those feelings of like wanting to punch my hand through a fall, to understand those feelings, and I just was desperate to do it. 

TAY:  Director Sam Mendes wasn‘t initially confident that Gyllenhaal had the depth to play a part like this, but soon realized there was a side to this rising star that was waiting to be unleashed.

SAM MENDES, DIRECTOR:  You had to be enraged and angry and violent and frightening at times and kind of crazy.  And I hadn‘t seen him do that.  And I just wanted to know that he was willing to get pushed that extra distance.  And he was.  And he went further than I could have imagined.  And I‘m really proud of him. 


FOXX:  Swofford, if you don‘t pick it, I‘m going to shoot you in your foot.


TAY:  Oscar winner Jamie Foxx plays the hard-hitting Staff Sergeant Sykes, who leads this group of young Marines into combat. 


FOXX:  Do you have what it takes to be the meanest, the baddest in God‘s cruel kingdom? 

UNIDENTIFIED ACTORS:  Yes, Staff Sergeant!~


FOXX:  He doesn‘t have to bust their balls, because he know that they are 100 percent ready.  He just needs the 101 percentile of them that he needs to use. 


UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR:  Welcome to the stuck.


TAY:  For these actors, who have never experienced war firsthand, working on “Jarhead” had a profound effect. 


FOXX:  When we cross this berm, we expect as many as 30,000 casualties. 


FOXX:  I have more sensibility toward the troops.  Now, I have always had that sensibility, but now it just makes you want to keep in the headlines of what we are going through, because now it‘s just at the bottom, and it‘s five people were killed here, three people killed here, but that‘s eight people, eight mothers, eight fathers that‘s affected by it. 


SCARBOROUGH:  With me now in SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY, the real jarhead himself.  He‘s author of the book “Jarhead,” Anthony Swofford. 

Anthony, thank you so much for being here tonight.

Boy, I will tell you, this movie looks so intense.  Talk about why you wrote the book and what you think about the movie.  Does it take you back to where you were in 1991? 

ANTHONY SWOFFORD, AUTHOR, “JARHEAD”:  It does absolutely. 

I started writing “Jarhead” in May of 2001, just beyond 10 years after the of the war.  And I was really trying to capture my life at war and my life as a Marine.  I was 30 then.  And I wanted to understand that 20-year-old me who Jake portrays on screen.  And Jake and the other actors really captured the ethos, the center of the Marine Corps. 

SCARBOROUGH:  You know, nobody can really understand—from what I have heard, nobody can understand what it‘s like to be a Marine.  Once a Marine, always a Marine. 

And you get reports back from Iraq right now.  And we see reports of guys that get blown up over there, come back home and their biggest regret is that they left their buddies behind.  What is it?  How do they train you to have that much commitment, not just to your country, but also to the buddy that you are fighting next to? 

SWOFFORD:  Well, they are extreme that you are under, warfare is. 

And the Marines are trained well.  There‘s a real commitment to each other.  And whatever is going on with the superstructure of war, the men are fighting for each other and fighting their way home, really.  And what we see on the screen in “Jarhead” is the making of this family, the family that was my platoon.  When you enter the Marine Corps and you enter warfare, everything you know is left behind.  And you‘re fighting your way home.

SCARBOROUGH:  So, it‘s really, this war, as the star of the movie said, it‘s not a pro-war film or an anti-war film.  You are just trying to explain to Americans how they break you down, how they get your selfish instincts out of you, and make you part of a bigger unit and put you in these extraordinary circumstances.  Is that about right? 

SWOFFORD:  That is right.

I wrote the book in order to open this privatized, specialized world of the Marine Corps that I had been indoctrinated into at 18 and that I had left at 22.  And having gone to war marked my early adulthood.  And I wanted to open up that world for others, because the uninitiated in many ways will never know.  But, through my art, through my writing, I wanted to bring people closer. 

And the film does that same thing.  It‘s a boots-on-the-ground, grunt‘s-eye-view of warfare.  And we are seeing the war through the rifle scope, literally, often in the film.

SCARBOROUGH:  What‘s it like for you 14 years later, seeing war in the same country and seeing a lot of guys that you have got to relate to, even 14 years later?  Is there a part of you that says maybe you should be over there? 

SWOFFORD:  Well, yes.  I hear this from a lot of Gulf War vets when I‘m out traveling around the country, talking.

You know, survivor‘s guilt really is somewhat a part.   And, also, some men feel like we didn‘t finish the job in ‘90, ‘91, and, if we had, these young men and women wouldn‘t be serving there now.  And there‘s a real—I‘m way removed from my life as a Marine, but there is still a pull.  And I understand the young men and women who are serving.  I know how they are fighting and why. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Well, I will tell you what, Anthony.  You have done such a great service with your book and now through this movie.  Now a lot of other Americans can understand a little bit, just a little bit, of what all these people—extraordinary thing that these 18-, 19-, 20-year-olds are going through every day.  And I think that is what we forget the most, just how young these men and women are that are fighting for our country. 

Thanks a lot, Anthony.

SWOFFORD:  Thank you. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Greatly appreciate you being with us tonight. 

And good luck.

And if you want to see more about the movie “Jarhead” before you go see it, tune in to “MSNBC at the Movies” tomorrow at 12:00 noon and 5:00 p.m. Eastern.

When we get back, we have got a lot more straight ahead. 

And, when we return, Marilyn Monroe had big plans for her future when she died.  We will give you those surprising new details.

And then the real-life inspiration for the TV show “Medium,” she will share some of her secrets of the afterlife. 


SCARBOROUGH:  Marilyn Monroe, Americans are still fascinated by her life and her death, and now shocking new information coming to light.  In the new issue of “Playboy” magazine, we learn who she spoke to and what she said in the those final hours. 

With me now, we have Lisa DePaulo, contributing editor, a writer for “Playboy.”

Lisa, thank you so much for being with us. 


SCARBOROUGH:  Amazing revelations here. 

Talk about Marilyn Monroe‘s final days, which, of course, have been—so many people have been asking a lot of questions about them for 40 years.  What did you learn? 

DEPAULO:  Well, according to people that were very close to Joe DiMaggio, they were planning their second wedding.  His friends, two of his very close friends, as well as his niece June claim that, on August 8, the day of her funeral, she was supposed to be remarried to Joe DiMaggio at St.  Peter and Paul Church in San Francisco. 

SCARBOROUGH:  What about the final hours, who she spoke with, any phone calls that she made?  Again, you always—there has been a lot of speculation and, of course, the Kennedys‘ name always come up in that speculation.  But what have you learned? 

DEPAULO:  Right. 

In 40-some years, there have been all kinds of stories.  One of the things that June DiMaggio says is that her mother, Lee DiMaggio, who would have been Joe‘s sister-in-law, who was also very close to Marilyn, was in fact, the last person to speak to Marilyn the night she died. 

And what Lee told her daughter and told her family was that she was on the phone with Marilyn.  It was a perfectly normal conversation.  Suddenly, she screamed, dropped the phone, and she led June to believe that she screamed a name, but she would never tell her daughter what that was. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Did you find out why she wouldn‘t talk about it? 


DEPAULO:  She said that it would put her family at risk. 


So, it seems that the legend around Marilyn Monroe was that she was a very unhappy person, just depressed and despondent, not only over her career, but over her love life, and that she killed herself.  What you have learned, at least talking to the DiMaggio family and other people, is that that appears to be nothing more than a baseless urban legend. 

DEPAULO:  I think she was absolutely, positively despondent and depressed at times in her life. 

The key is, was she despondent and depressed that night?  And I don‘t believe she was, from what these people have told me.  I don‘t believe that she was on the verge of suicide.  I also think, if you look at her history, when she was in trouble, when she was emotionally or professionally in trouble, she called Joe DiMaggio.  And it was kind of interesting that she didn‘t call him, the man she was apparently planning to remarry in four days, that night, if, in fact, she was on the edge.

SCARBOROUGH:  You know, we have heard also stories about how the CIA and other government agencies were very concerned about her contacts with the Kennedy administration...

DEPAULO:  Right. 

SCARBOROUGH:  ... both the president and also Bobby Kennedy.

DEPAULO:  Right. 

SCARBOROUGH:  That they were afraid that she might be actually a national security risk if she talked to the wrong people. 

DEPAULO:  Right. 

SCARBOROUGH:  Did you learn anything in your investigation regarding the CIA‘s concern?  Did they keep close tabs on her? 

DEPAULO:  Several different entities had her house bugged, the FBI, Hoover, the CIA.  I mean, it was like Circuit City in there, which is another reason why it‘s kind of amazing that, 43 years later, we really don‘t know what happened. 

But there has always been a theory that between the time she actually died and when it was reported to police, however long that was, that there were things removed from her home.  Now, even if it had been suicide, with the way Hollywood studios are and certainly were then, they would have done that anyway. 

But one thing Marilyn had was this little red book.  And, in fact, Joe DiMaggio gave her the book, and said write everything down.  Write everything down that all your friends are telling you, meaning the Kennedys, Sinatra, everybody that DiMaggio hated, because they were close to her. 

And the morning after her death, he went back to find the little red book, and it was not there.  And one of the people I spoke to in the piece, the actor Leon Kennedy (ph), claims that, when he was on a movie set with Peter Lawford, Peter Lawford said, one night when he had a few pops, I went back and got the red book. 

SCARBOROUGH:  And, of course, that‘s been the story, the legend.  That‘s what everybody has been whispering for the past 40 years, that Lawford was sent back in to clean up things.  We don‘t know so many parts of this story.

But, Lisa, thank you so much for being with us tonight and certainly shedding a lot of light on an ongoing mystery.  Greatly appreciate you being with us.

Now, coming up next, she sees dead people.  And we are going to be hearing from a real-life psychic who inspired the TV show “Medium” when SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY returns. 



I sat down earlier this week with Allison DuBois.  She‘s a psychic that the NBC hit show “Medium” is based on.  And, even though there are a lot of skeptics out there, she says her work helps many people. 


ALLISON DUBOIS, PSYCHIC:  We explained to her who he is first, because she had never really met him.  And once she knew that it was her daddy‘s daddy, she was more OK with that.  And she said, OK, well, just tell him not to scare me anymore. 

And I said OK.  So, I just had a few words.  And she never had a problem with that again.  And that daughter is now 11, for me, my oldest.  And I used to do readings in our old house in my office.  And I had a child that was murdered that I brought through.  And my daughter woke up and she was really aggravated.

And I said, what is the matter?  And she said, there is a little girl in my room.  And she described her.  And she‘s like, what does she want?  And I said, you know, honey, she was abducted and murdered and she just feels comfortable here.  And she said, well, that‘s fine.  As long as she doesn‘t wake me up, I guess it‘s OK.

So, you know, she is OK with it now.  She understands that there is no harm intended and that it‘s a comfort thing and they‘re just saying hello.  So, as long as they don‘t wake her up, she‘s good.

SCARBOROUGH:  Any final message that you want to get out to people tonight? 

DUBOIS:  I think the most important thing for people to understand about people who have passed is, they don‘t know always need a medium to connect them with a person.  Just talk to them.  They hear you.  They just want you to acknowledge them.  And the more you acknowledge them, the stronger your connection to them becomes and the more you experience yourself. 

I like to get people in a place where they can know that the person is there, without needing somebody like me to necessarily confirm it, but to feel it themselves.  And I think—I think a lot of people have that experience all the time.  I‘m just validation for them.  That‘s all.

So, once people can grasp that they are not really gone and they are here with us not because they‘re bound out of guilt, but because they‘re bound out of love and they just want to be still be a part of our lives, I think it gives them a great deal of comfort and eases their mind.  And, so, I hope people go away with that night tonight.

SCARBOROUGH:  So, our relatives that pass on can hear us? 

DUBOIS:  Yes.  They can hear you.  They don‘t bother you when...

SCARBOROUGH:  Even when we, like, say bad things about them after they pass?  So, we have to be careful about what we say even after they have departed? 

DUBOIS:  You know, I have done that.  I have absolutely done that.

And I covered my mouth and was like, oops.  But, yes, they understand it.  And they actually have quite a great sense of humor where they‘re at.  And they don‘t fault us for that.  They just want us to know that they are still a part of us.  People who are named after other relatives, that relative you‘re named after tends to hang around, too, because they feel connected to you. 

So, there‘s many different reasons for them to be around, but the majority of them are just here out of love and amusement and wanting to share in your celebrations in life and how proud they are of what you have become.  So, it‘s nice.


SCARBOROUGH:  This week‘s SCARBOROUGH champion is coming up right after the break, live from Los Angeles.


SCARBOROUGH:  Our SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY champion this week, well, we say thank you, Rosa Parks—that when SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY returns. 


SCARBOROUGH:  A regal funeral for Rosa Parks, the woman known as the mother of the civil rights movement.  Parks is our SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY champion this week, because helped end the segregation laws 50 years ago, simply by being a woman who decided to say no, when everybody else around her said yes. 

And because of that, well, she started a movement that launched a revolution that changed America and the world forever. 

NBC‘s Jay Gray has that story. 


JAY GRAY, NBC CORRESPONDENT (voice-over):  Her journey began on a bus in Montgomery, Alabama, when Rosa Parks refused to give up her seat on a city bus to a white man, an event that helped to change the course of history. 

Her final trip home started back in Montgomery.  Thousands pushed to say goodbye out of their deep respect for the civil rights icon.  The tribute to Parks moved next to Washington.  She was the first woman in history to lie in honor in the Capitol Rotunda, one of our nation‘s highest tributes. 

Finally, Parks made the trip back to Detroit.  Thousands lined up outside the Charles H. Wright Museum of African American History for their last chance to say, thank you. 

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE:  This is very important.  I was born in 1968.  And, before I was even born, she was taking a stand for me, someone that she never met.  And I feel paying my respects is the only thing I can do. 

GRAY:  Later today, thousands will again gather at Parks‘ church, the Greater Grace Temple, for her funeral.

And then Parks will be laid to rest here, at Woodlawn Cemetery, the end of a long trip that started on that bus in Alabama and ended with the admiration and respect of an entire nation. 

Jay Gray, NBC News, Detroit. 


SCARBOROUGH:  You know, so many people wanted to reach out and say thanks, in their own special way, to Rosa Parks for what she did, not only for African-Americans, but for all Americans, for making, well, my home region, the South, a fairer and more just place to live. 

Well, nobody really said thanks better than the reverend that helped say goodbye to Rosa Parks. 


UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  If I were Chinese I‘d say, (SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE).  If I were Danish, I would say (SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE).  If I were Italian, I would say (SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE).  If I were Hebrew, I‘d say (SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE).  If I were Greek, I would say (SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE).

If I were Japanese, I would say (SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE).  If I were Portuguese, I would say (SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE).

If I were Spanish, I‘d say (SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE).  If I were German, I‘d say (SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE).  If I were French, I‘d say (SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE).

If I were Russian, I would say (SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE).  If I were Kenyan, I would say (SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE).  If I were Nigerian, I‘d say (SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE).  If I were Zulu I would say (SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE).  If I was Hutu, I would say (SPEAKING FOREIGN LANGUAGE).

If I were deaf I‘d say...


UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  But since I am who I am, and I got what I got, and I feel what I feel, I‘ll just say, thank you.  Thank you.  Praise your name.  Amen!


SCARBOROUGH:  The service, I understand, was seven hours long.

But, with that type of preaching, that type of praying—and we understand Bill Clinton was there—maybe he read a couple of chapters of his book—I mean, that—that could have taken about three or four hours, in and of itself.

But, still, what a remarkable send-off for a remarkable woman, who, again, changed all of our lives. 

That‘s all the time we have for tonight.  Thank you so much for being with us.  If you have something to say, send me an e-mail at


Tucker, what‘s the situation tonight? 



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