KRISTEN WELKER:
This Sunday: Party leader.
SEN. MITCH McCONNELL:
Alliances matter.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Senate Minority Leader Mitch Mcconnell joins me for a wide-ranging interview as he prepares to step down as Republican leader later this year.
SEN. MITCH McCONNELL:
This is my principal interest, pushing back against isolationism.
KRISTEN WELKER:
His thoughts on Donald Trump’s courtroom campaign.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Do you think that presidents should be immune from criminal prosecution for actions while they’re in office?
SEN. MITCH McCONNELL:
Obviously, I don't think that.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And his own legacy.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Do you ever regret your vote to acquit?
KRISTEN WELKER:
Plus, escalating tensions.
PROTESTERS:
Free, free, free Palestine.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Protests over the Israel-Hamas war spread on college campuses across the country.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Occupation is a crime.
KRISTEN WELKER:
What impact will it all have on President Biden’s re-election campaign? I’ll talk to Democratic Senator Tim Kaine of Virginia. And, barrier breaker. Civil rights icon Ruby Bridges joins me for our “Meet the Moment” conversation.
RUBY BRIDGES:
I was thrust into the middle of a situation that no six-year-old should be put in.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Joining me for insight and analysis are Geoff Bennett, co-anchor of PBS NewsHour; Jonathan Martin of Politico, former White House Press Secretary Jen Psaki and Marc Short, former chief-of-staff to Vice President Mike Pence. Welcome to Sunday, it’s Meet the Press.
ANNOUNCER:
From NBC News in Washington, the longest-running show in television history, this is Meet the Press with Kristen Welker.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Good Sunday morning after a monumental week marked by the first-ever criminal trial of a former president and history-making arguments before the Supreme Court. While Donald Trump sat in a New York courtroom, on trial for 34 felony counts of falsifying business records, the Supreme Court heard arguments on Trump's claim of presidential immunity, which could reshape the future of presidential power. The justices appeared ready to reject Trump’s sweeping claim that he is immune from any criminal prosecution on felony charges of conspiracy and obstruction for trying to subvert the 2020 election but suggested they might give Trump a different kind of victory: a delay in the case, signaling they could send it back to lower courts. At issue, a version of this claim that Richard Nixon made in 1977.
[START TAPE]
FMR. PRES. RICHARD NIXON:
Well, when the president does it, that means that it is not illegal.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
In nearly three hours of oral argument, the liberal justices raised a series of hypotheticals to emphasize the consequences of Mr. Trump's position that presidents are entitled to absolute immunity.
[START TAPE]
JUSTICE SONIA SOTOMAYOR:
If the president decides that his rival is a corrupt person, and he orders the military or orders someone to assassinate him, is that within his official acts for which he can get immunity?
D. JOHN SAUER:
It would depend on the hypothetical, but we can see that could well be an official act.
JUSTICE ELENA KAGAN:
If a president sells nuclear secrets to a foreign adversary, is that immune? How about if a president orders the military to stage a coup?
JUSTICE KETANJI BROWN JACKSON:
I'm trying to understand what the disincentive is from turning the Oval Office into, you know, the seat of criminal activity in this country.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
For their part, the conservative justices on the court seemed focused on the impact on future presidents.
[START TAPE]
JUSTICE NEIL GORSUCH:
I'm not concerned about this case, but I am concerned about future uses of the criminal law to target political opponents based on accusations about their motives.
JUSTICE SAMUEL ALITO
I'm not discussing the particular facts of this case, but it applies to any fraud that interferes seriously with any government operation, right?
JUSTICE BRETT KAVANUGH:
I'm not focused on the here and now of this case. I'm very concerned about the future.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
One of the strongest cases against immunity was made in 2021 by Senate Republican Leader Mitch McConnell, after he voted to acquit Trump in his second impeachment trial.
[START TAPE]
SEN. MITCH McCONNELL:
We have a criminal justice system in this country. We have civil litigation. And former presidents are not immune from being accountable by either one.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
I sat down with the Senate Republican leader and discussed presidential immunity and a range of other topics including the protests on college campuses nationwide and the recent aid package that was just passed for Ukraine. McConnell helped secure the deal in the Senate after a months-long delay and fierce opposition within his own party. I began by asking about his call this week with Ukrainian President Zelenskyy.
KRISTEN WELKER:
What was your message to President Zelenskyy? And is this aid getting there too late to make a difference, Leader McConnell?
SEN. MITCH McCONNELL:
I can only express my own view, which is that I'm with them. And I don't think we ought to try to force a settlement they don't want to make. I have the same view of Israel, for example, you know, the administration basically saying, "You ought to have an election." It's not our job to tell a democratic ally whether or not to have an election. Or, also, and I think we've done some of this in both these countries, trying to give 'em restrictions on how they fight the war. They're there. They're in the conflict. I don't think telling them how they ought to run their military operation is in our best interest or theirs.
KRISTEN WELKER:
I want to get to the isolationism in your party. And I do want to get to the Middle East. But just on this point, do you think, after this six months battle for aid to Ukraine, do you worry it's getting there too late?
SEN. MITCH McCONNELL:
I think we need to stick with them. I think it's important to us. Look at all the good things that have happened to us as a result of this. Most of the money's being spent in the U.S., in 38 different states. The Europeans have stepped up. We've got two new members of NATO. The prime minister of Japan here a couple of weeks ago, spent a lot of time talking about Ukraine. And he had previously said, "If you want to send President Xi a message, beat Putin in Ukraine." This is a worldwide problem that's not gonna go away after one supplemental.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, let's talk about your concerns about the future, the isolationism in your own party. What is your message to the isolationists in the Republican Party?
SEN. MITCH McCONNELL:
That Ronald Reagan had it right. You get peace through strength. And I would say to the Democrats, they've got a problem on the left. So it’s not just us having kind of an isolationist discussion. You've got visible antisemitism on the left. So, we've all got to get serious about the challenges ahead of us. Engaging in antisemitic behavior in the United States needs to be stood up to by the administrators of these colleges.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well – and we're going to talk about the colleges. Antisemitism, though, is not just a problem that's unique to one party or another. Antisemitism is something that the country is facing together. But I do want to ask you, on this issue of the future of the Republican Party, you're saying that it's turned the corner on isolationism. What gives you that confidence when more House Republicans voted against more aid to Ukraine than for it?
SEN. MITCH McCONNELL:
Well, I'm the minority leader of the Senate. And I can only report how we've done here. We had predicted correctly that if there were votes in the House, it would pass. And I'm proud of the fact that we got ten more votes this week than we had two months ago. And I think our members are focusing on the facts. And the facts are that this is in our best interest. This is not some charitable contribution to Ukraine.
KRISTEN WELKER:
But 15 Senate Republicans did vote against it. So to people who say, "We're not turning a corner. This is where the party is headed."
SEN. MITCH McCONNELL:
I think the party is heading in a different direction from them.
KRISTEN WELKER:
From the isolationists?
SEN. MITCH McCONNELL:
Yeah.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Let's move onto the tensions in the Middle East that have spilled over across this country, as you referenced. We have seen pro-Palestinian protests on college campuses all across the country. House Speaker Mike Johnson was at Columbia University this week. He said, quote, "This is dangerous. This is not the First Amendment. This is not free expression." Do you agree with him? Is that your assessment, too?
SEN. MITCH McCONNELL:
I think it's a dangerous situation. You said pro-Palestinian. There's also antisemitism, which is completely unacceptable. I've been – I've been shocked to see that in this country. First responsibility is the administrations of these colleges. That's the first responsibility. And so the speaker is correct in saying – laying the blame on the administrators. When I was in college, and I bet when you were in college, there were plenty of debates, but we were not trying to shut people up, and had aggressive, civil discussions. That's the responsibility of the college administrators. And to do anything else makes them look like they're sympathetic with one side or the other. And I think restoring order and civility, to have reasonable debates is what needs to happen.
KRISTEN WELKER:
To the students who are protesting peacefully, though, do they have a right to protest on college campuses?
SEN. MITCH McCONNELL:
Oh, of course. Yeah. But I think people need to understand, just the fact that we have the First Amendment doesn't give you the right to scream, "Fire," in a theater and run everybody out. I mean, sure, you're free to speak. But you're not free to harm others with your speech.
KRISTEN WELKER:
I want to talk to you about abortion, which, as you know, is one of the biggest issues for people all across this country right now. Back in 2022, you said a national ban was “possible.” So as I sit here today, I want to ask you, Leader McConnell, would you support a federal ban on abortion?
SEN. MITCH McCONNELL:
I said it was possible. I didn't say that was my view. I just said it was possible.
KRISTEN WELKER:
What is your view? Would you support a federal ban?
SEN. MITCH McCONNELL:
And the reason I said it was possible is because the Supreme Court has put this back into the legislative arena. And we're seeing it play out all across the country. And I think in the end, it'll reflect the views of these individual states. But I did not say – I said, "Possible." I didn't say that was my view. I – I don't think we'll get 60 votes in the Senate for any kind of national legislation. I think it's a practical matter. It's going to be sorted out at the state level.
KRISTEN WELKER:
If a federal ban came before you for a vote, though, would you support it, a 15-week federal ban with exceptions, what Lindsey Graham is proposing?
SEN. MITCH McCONNELL:
Yeah, I'm not advocating anything at this level. I think it's going to be sorted out all across the country and be very different in different states.
KRISTEN WELKER:
So you don't think a federal ban is likely, you think it's possible, as you just said?
SEN. MITCH McCONNELL:
I don't think any federal legislation is likely to get 60 votes in the Senate on any – any direction.
KRISTEN WELKER:
When I talk to advocates, they say they want clarity from the Republican Party on this issue. Should the Republican Party take a stance on whether it supports a federal ban?
SEN. MITCH McCONNELL:
At the risk of being redundant, it seems to me views about this issue at the state level vary depending where you are. And we get elected by states. And my members are smart enough to figure out how they want to deal with this very divisive issue based upon the people who actually send them here.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Let's talk about what's going on at the Supreme Court this week. In 2021, you voted to acquit Donald Trump in his second impeachment, saying on the Senate floor quote, "We have a criminal justice system in this country. We have civil litigation. And former presidents are not immune from being held accountable by either one." As we sit here, Donald Trump's attorneys are arguing before the Supreme Court that presidents are immune from criminal prosecution for actions that they take while they are in office. Do you agree with that argument?
SEN. MITCH McCONNELL:
We're going to find out, aren't we? I mean, the Supreme Court is gonna deal with that direct issue that I was referring to on February 13th of 2021. And I think we'll find out sometime soon.
KRISTEN WELKER:
What do you think, Leader McConnell? Do you think that presidents should be immune from criminal prosecution for actions while they're in office?
SEN. MITCH McCONNELL:
Obviously I don't think that. But it's not up to me to make that decision. The president clearly needs some kind of immunity or we'd be in court all the time. So we'll see how the Supreme Court deals with it.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Just to be very clear, you said former presidents are not immune from being held accountable. You stand by those comments?
SEN. MITCH McCONNELL:
That was my view. But I don't make that decision. The court –
KRISTEN WELKER:
But you stand by those comments?
SEN. MITCH McCONNELL:
Yeah. That's my view. It's only my view. The court is going to decide this.
KRISTEN WELKER:
But just to be clear, you stand by those comments: "Former presidents are not immune from being held accountable?"
SEN. MITCH McCONNELL:
Yeah. I do. But – how many times do I have to say it? I'm not on the Supreme Court. I don't get to make the final decision on that.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Do you ever regret your vote to acquit former President Trump in his second impeachment trial?
SEN. MITCH McCONNELL:
Look, he was not president anymore at that point. There was a big debate about whether or not you could even impeach somebody, remove them from office that they don't hold. I stick with what I said then. I addressed this issue on January 6th and on February 13th. I stand by everything I said.
KRISTEN WELKER:
So, you do not regret your decision to acquit him?
SEN. MITCH McCONNELL:
I stand by everything I said when I addressed this issue on January 6th and February 13th.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And you have said that you endorse former President Trump. Are you going to vote for him?
SEN. MITCH McCONNELL:
I said three years ago, shortly after the assault on the Capitol, that I would support the nominee of the party, whoever that was. And I do.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And that includes voting for him?
SEN. MITCH McCONNELL:
I said it three years ago. I'm not just making news today. I'm simply referring back to what I said shortly after the assault on the Capitol.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And to those who hear that and wonder how you can support him despite being so critical of him after – after January 6th.
[START TAPE]
SEN. MITCH McCONNELL:
There's no question – none – that President Trump is practically and morally responsible for provoking the events of the day.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
Despite saying that we've got to leave this up to the courts, what say you?
SEN. MITCH McCONNELL:
Well, the answer is, the Republican voters of this country have spoken. They get to pick nominees for president. So how I'm spending my time is on something I can have an impact on, which is making sure my successor is the majority leader and not the minority leader.
KRISTEN WELKER:
I want to ask you about your legacy. You said just this week that you often feel like the only Reagan Republican left. As you prepare to step down from your leadership position this year, what are your greatest concerns about the future of the Republican Party?
SEN. MITCH McCONNELL:
Well, I tell you, I feel better about it after we had our vote. I don't know when I said that. It may have been before the vote. But I do think peace through strength, which was the Reagan formula, which was the Eisenhower formula, not the Robert Taft isolationism back in the '40s, is recovering. And I think in this episode, more of my members really focused on the facts. And it's hard to argue against the supplemental. It's in our interest. This is not charity to Ukraine. It's in our interest. And I think we've refocused on the importance of playing the kind of role that we need to play in the world. It's in our interest. None of this is charity. The whole democratic world is in favor of what we did this week. That should get the attention of our members. Plus, all the jobs that are being created in their states with the money that we're spending retooling our industrial base for the big challenges ahead against China, against Russia, against Iran.
KRISTEN WELKER:
I hear your optimism. And yet, some Republicans say, "This is the last aid bill that will ever get passed to Ukraine." Can Ukraine count on the United States to stay with it for more support, more aid in the future?
SEN. MITCH McCONNELL:
Well, just to go back in history one more time, before World War II, Robert Taft was the most important Republican. Everybody knew who he was. Desperately wanted to be president. He opposed land lease. And most of the Republican senators did. And then after the war, Pearl Harbor changed all that for a few years. But then, after the war, he opposed NATO and the Marshall Plan. He ran for president in '52, fortunately lost to Eisenhower, who had a totally different view of America's role in the world, and the role we needed to play. We've had a tendency to be isolationists when there were Democrats in the White House. But I think, in fact, if you look at the condition of the world right now, it's actually more dangerous than before World War II. More. Because we have terrorism that they didn't have.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And yet, the leader of the Republican Party espouses an America first foreign policy, which is the very definition of isolationism. What concerns you about that as you prepare to step down from your leadership position?
SEN. MITCH McCONNELL:
Well, it's a family dispute. I won't go over the details, but you all have had that sort of thing recently as well. It's a family argument. And I'm pretty clearly on the non-isolationist side. And I tend to do my best to convince my members that that's the way to go. And even after I leave this job, I'm not leaving the Senate. And this is my principal interest: pushing back against isolationism.
KRISTEN WELKER:
This is going to be your focus once you step down from leadership?
SEN. MITCH McCONNELL:
It is. It is.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Okay. Leader McConnell, thank you very much. I really appreciate your time.
SEN. MITCH McCONNELL:
Thank you.
KRISTEN WELKER:
When we come back, student protests over the war in Gaza spread across the country. Will it impact President Biden’s re-election campaign? Democratic Senator Tim Kaine of Virginia joins me next.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. Colleges across the country are grappling with growing tensions over the war in Gaza, as protests spread. More than 200 protesters were arrested at campuses across the country Saturday. USC has canceled its main commencement ceremony. Joining me now is Democratic Senator Tim Kaine of Virginia, the author of a new book, “Walk, Ride, Paddle: A Life Outside.” Senator Kaine, welcome back to Meet the Press.
SEN. TIM KAINE:
Kristen, great to be with you this morning.
l
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, it is great to have you, Senator. Let's dive right in and talk about these protests, which we've seen on college campuses all across the country. They are not monolithic. There are pro-Palestinian protests. Some of the protests are calling for a ceasefire. We've also seen antisemitism on some of these college campuses. My question for you this morning, do you think the Biden administration, the president, has a role to play in this moment, in addressing what we are seeing in these college campuses?
SEN. TIM KAINE:
Kristen, it's a really good question. And you know, this is a tough one because people have a right to protest and make their views known. And almost, you know, overwhelming percentages of people do that peacefully. But there are those who intimidate or harass others. There are those who speak in hate speech or antisemitism. And so giving people the latitude to do what they ought to be able to do, and also trying to curb unacceptable behavior is tough. Here's a role that I think the president can play: we know of places where maybe these discussions are not being done the way they should be. They're not being done civilly. But there's also some universities that I think are doing this right. And one of the things that I think it might be important for the president, or maybe the education secretary, Secretary Cardona, to do, is hold up some examples of colleges in the country, and I think there are a number of them, where discussions about difficult topics like Israel and Gaza are happening, but happening in a way that really can be a model. Where people can express their points of view on tough issues, but not feel intimidated or harassed because of the positions they hold. So I think the president can use the bully pulpit to kind of hold up some good examples. And I would hope that he and other members of the administration might do that.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, let me ask you about how far you think this should potentially go. As you know, Speaker Mike Johnson visited Columbia University this past week. And he said, quote, "If this is not contained quickly, and if these threats and intimidation are not stopped," he said that the National Guard should be called in. Is that something you would support if the situation escalates on college campuses?
SEN. TIM KAINE:
Kristen, I think calling in the National Guard to college campuses, for so many people, would recall what happened when that was done during the Vietnam War, and it didn't end well. The National Guard going to college campuses, Kent State and elsewhere, did not end well. And I think that would be a very, very bad idea. I think there are other ways, using campus security, but also again, offering students more opportunities to have dialogue that is civil and constructive, where people hear one another, that's by far preferable. So no, I do not think the National Guard is a solution to this.
KRISTEN WELKER:
I want to ask you about the policy now of what is happening in the Middle East. You voted this week for a foreign aid bill that will send more aid to Israel. It includes about $9 billion in aid for military, weaponry. I want to play you something that your colleague, Senator Bernie Sanders, had to say, get your reaction on the other side.
[START TAPE]
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS:
Netanyahu and his extremist government are clearly in violation of U.S. and international law, and because of that should no longer receive U.S. military aid.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
Is he right? Senator, what's your reaction?
SEN. TIM KAINE:
So two things: Senator Sanders voted against the aid package, which was Ukraine aid, Israel defense aid, but also Gaza humanitarian aid. I voted for the package because we need to defend Ukraine. And look, I think the U.S. needs to help Israel defend itself. You saw, I think it was two Saturdays ago, hundreds of missiles and drones fired by Iran to attack Israel on its soil. And the U.S. and other nations helped Israel defend itself so that that did not cause damage in Israel, which would only have led to an escalation. So I believe we do need to help Israel defend itself from those who would annihilate it: Iran, Hamas, Hezbollah and others. But we also need to lean on Israel, and we have been doing it increasingly publicly, to allow more humanitarian aid to Gaza, and that was in the package we voted for on Tuesday, to do what they can to reduce civilian suffering. The most important thing, Kristen, right now that we all need to reach, is we need to reach a ceasefire and hostage release. Release the hostages, get into an extended ceasefire. That will then deescalate violence in the region. It will enable us to get more humanitarian aid to Gazans, and it will open up this discussion that is long delayed about a future for Palestine. A future that was promised in 1948, but that's never been realized.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Senator, I want to ask you about your book, “Walk, Ride, Paddle.” I have it right here. You say in one section of the book, 2016, when you were then-Secretary Clinton's running mate, "taught me some painful lessons about a country I thought I understood." What are the lessons? How do they apply to this election? Particularly when President Biden is losing support among young voters over this very issue we're discussing, the war in the Middle East.
SEN. TIM KAINE:
A couple of things that I learned along the way, Kristen. I embarked on this Virginia nature triathlon when I turned 60 and celebrated 25 years in public life. 2016, one of the things I learned pretty powerfully is there's still a double standard affecting women. Look, I knew that intellectually. I'm married to a professional woman, and I've seen it in her life, and in the lives of others. But not until I was on that trail with Hillary and saw a good person and a good public servant, you know, judged more harshly than her opponent in numerous instances, I think I really got a PhD in the continuing existence of a double standard for women. But I also learned on my journey something really important. We are polarized in this country in politics: Joe Biden or Donald Trump, or Israel or Gaza. There's a lot we disagree on. But we need to remember, without sugarcoating that, there's also a lot of areas where we agree. In nature you find unity. You find Democrats, Republicans and Independents who all have their favorite place to go to watch a sunset, or a stream to fish in. And as Americans, we can't sugarcoat the issues that divide us, but we also need to remember there's a lot of things that we have in common. And I found that on my Virginia nature triathlon.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, it is a pretty profound message. It is a good read. Senator Tim Kaine, thank you so much for joining us, for your insights this morning. We really appreciate it.
SEN. TIM KAINE:
You bet. Thanks, Kristen.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And when we come back, as Donald Trump's criminal trial played out in New York this week, his lawyers argued to the Supreme Court that a president might be immune from prosecution, even if they try to overthrow the government. Stay with us. The panel's next.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. The panel is here: Geoff Bennett, co-anchor of PBS NewsHour, Jonathan Martin, politics bureau chief and senior political columnist for Politico, former White House Press Secretary, Jen Psaki, host of “Inside with Jen Psaki” and Marc Short, former chief of staff to Vice President Pence. Thank you all for being here, getting up early the morning after the White House Correspondents’ Dinner. Really appreciate it. Jonathan, let me start with you and my exchange with leader McConnell in which I asked him if he stands by his argument that no one is immune. He ultimately said, yes, he stands by it. It comes as we had this extraordinary day of arguments in the Supreme Court. What do you make of all of that?
JONATHAN MARTIN:
I thought it was a superb interview.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Thank you.
JONATHAN MARTIN:
And I think McConnell is torn between politics and history. He – he is – he is trying to find a way ahead in a party that's led by somebody who he has nothing but contempt for. McConnell thought Trump was discredited after January 6th. I know he thought that because he told me so that night. And that has proven to be wrong. And McConnell is now stuck in the – the – the shadows of his career with a nominee and maybe a president who he finds contemptible and who he has profound disagreements with on policy issues like national security. And he makes that point to you that at the end of his career, he's going to fight this fight on national security because that's what he is trying – his legacy is trying to keep that Reagan flame aloft and fighting Trumpism the best he can, and frankly the only way he can, which is national security.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yeah. It's just fascinating that he says he's going to dedicate his time to that. Marc, let me turn to you. You were obviously there with former Vice President Mike Pence on January 6th at the Capitol. You've testified before the grand jury. But I'm curious for your take. Because it seems as though based on what we heard at the Supreme Court it is very likely this case is going to get kicked back to a lower court. That could mean a delay. That likely means that this case won't go to trial before Election Day. What are the implications of that?
MARC SHORT:
Well, Kristen I think that most voters have made their decision at this point. And I think the president's actions on January 6th, he should be held accountable to the voters. I'm not sure that we should be looking for the legal system to render a verdict therefore beforehand. I think the reality is that from the court's perspective, this is a novel case. I think it's understandable the process. But I think the American people should hold him accountable. And I also think candidly that I think Mitch McConnell's been entirely consistent on this. I do think despite the president's, I think, dereliction of duty on January 6th and many of the advisors around him, at the end of the day you don't want to be impeaching former presidents when you have a whole weight of the government prosecuting you, you don't have a White House counsel's office to defend you. I think that'd be a terrible precedent.
JEN PSAKI:
Can I just add on the – on the McConnell interview which I thought was also very well done.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Thank you.
JEN PSAKI:
I mean, he said a lot of things that a lot of people in Congress would probably agree with on a range of positions. However, he struck me as quite passive for a person who is not passive. He's not a wallflower.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Right, right, right.
JEN PSAKI:
He's the Senate minority leader. He’s jammed through Supreme Court justices. This guy is not shy. And what it told me is that he is struggling as Jonathan referenced with this, "I want to be speaking out against isolationists. I want to talk about what – who we are as a country. But I don't want to touch Trump." And the problem is Trump's views, he's the leader of the party. He is an isolationist. It's intrinsically tied to your success in that effort.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Geoff, what about that argument which I tried to make at the end of the interview. You're saying you're turning the corner –
GEOFF BENNETT:
Right.
KRISTEN WELKER:
– on speaking against isolationists. The leader of your party right now is espousing an isolationist viewpoint.
GEOFF BENNETT:
And that was especially pronounced in the matter of January 6th where we saw the majority leader at the time say that Donald Trump was practically and morally responsible for January 6th. And – but yet he voted to acquit, not once, but twice when he had the opportunity in those impeachment trials. And so yes, it's – it’s a huge issue. Certainly he's trying to preserve his – his role within the party and make sure that as he said, that Republicans emerge victorious in the election.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, President Biden made a little bit of news on the state of play this week when he was asked if he would debate former president Trump. Here's what he had to say. Take a look.
[START TAPE]
HOWARD STERN:
I don't know if you're going to debate your – your opponent.
PRESIDENT JOE BIDEN:
I am somewhere. I don't know when. I'm happy to debate him.
PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP:
I've invited Biden to debate. He can do it anytime he wants including tonight.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
Jonathan Martin.
JONATHAN MARTIN:
I'm curious –
JEN PSAKI:
Including tonight.
JONATHAN MARTIN:
I'm curious for what Jen Psaki's reaction would have been, like, if she was still at the White House when she heard President Biden blurt out during a live interview that he was going to debate. Because Biden's folks don't want him to debate. They don't want to give Trump that platform and risk exposing Biden like that on national TV.
JEN PSAKI:
Except I was – I was thinking if I was in my old job from two years ago, you also don't want him to say no. Because no is weak.
GEOFF BENNETT:
Dodge.
JEN PSAKI:
And no is fear. So you have to say yes.
JONATHAN MARTIN:
Buy – buy time.
JEN PSAKI:
They both have to say yes. Now, whether this happens, we all know there's lots of things –
JONATHAN MARTIN:
Exactly.
JEN PSAKI:
– that need to be negotiated. How many water cups –
KRISTEN WELKER:
Wouldn’t happen tonight.
JEN PSAKI:
It won’t happen tonight. Kristen's not ready for it.
JONATHAN MARTIN:
By the way, if Biden does debate, I think it'll be a tell for us this summer that Biden's got ground to make up still. If he does agree to it, that's a reveal that he's got to come back still.
KRISTEN WELKER:
One of the issues that they will undoubtedly both have to deal with, if they debate, Geoff Bennett, is what is happening in the Middle East. We are seeing how fraught that issue is. It's playing out on college campuses all across the country with these protesters. As we've said –
GEOFF BENNETT:
Yeah.
KRISTEN WELKER:
– they are not monolithic in messaging. But this is something that they have to grapple with.
GEOFF BENNETT:
And we've seen President Biden try to calibrate his message –
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yes.
GEOFF BENNETT:
– on the one hand condemning anti-Semitism on college campuses, on the other hand defending students' rights to protest. I talked with Biden allies who say that, yes, these protests are significant. It's unclear right now what the impact will be in large part because the students who are actively engaged in these demonstrations, as the Biden campaign sees it, they are a – a subset of a subset of the electorate. And if he has any challenges with younger voters, it likely won't be on this – this issue of the humanitarian catastrophe in Gaza. It'll likely be on the economic issues and the high cost of living and so on and so forth. But it – but it really speaks to the ways in which President Biden has a challenge really –
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yes.
GEOFF BENNETT:
– in trying to keep together this broad, desperate coalition of voters.
JONATHAN MARTIN:
It's a precarious coalition from AOC to the Cheney family. They don't have a lot in common. And it's hard to keep them all on the same page.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And young voters, Jonathan, who he needs to turn out in force.
JONATHAN MARTIN:
Well, that's the real challenge. If you go to a place like Michigan or Wisconsin, and just take the college towns there, Ann Arbor, you know, Madison. If you can't keep those folks away from either a third-party candidate or staying home all together, there goes Michigan and Wisconsin. And there goes the presidency. It's not more complicated than that.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yeah, Jen, you know, a lot of people have noted President Biden hasn't come out and sort of made formal remarks about this yet. Does he need to? And to my point that I put to Senator Kaine, do you anticipate he's going to announce some executive action or policy on this?
JEN PSAKI:
Well, he did announce he's going to go speak at Morehouse University in a couple of weeks. And that is –
JONATHAN MARTIN:
Risky. It’s risky.
JEN PSAKI:
That is a significant decision.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yeah.
JEN PSAKI:
There will undoubtedly be protesters there. That in itself is a statement. I want to go in and be in the belly of where people are feeling this passion on campus.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yeah.
JEN PSAKI:
I do think to just echo what Geoff said. It's important when you're sitting in the White House and you're sitting on a campaign, you're very mindful of what you're seeing among young people on college campuses. What you're also mindful of is things like the Harvard IOP Poll where the economy and housing costs, that is the number one issue for young people –
KRISTEN WELKER:
Right.
JEN PSAKI:
– in these polls. And you have to be mindful of that as well, as well as people experiencing anti-Semitism across the country. Now, I do find it a little ironic when you have people like Mitch McConnell who's, like, not talking about Trump is echoing Hitler, talking about anti-Semitism of the Democratic Party. But that aside, it is an issue. So you have to factor in all those things politically and also factor in how you're going to win the war –
KRISTEN WELKER:
Marc?
JEN PSAKI:
– end the war.
MARC SHORT:
I think that leaders of our higher education institutions are so collectively cowards today. I think the University of Florida's been a unique exception in which they've allowed both free speech and protection to students. And I find it fascinating to see how many LGBT people are aligning with the Palestinian protests when in under rule of Hamas or most of the Muslim countries, they'd be sentenced to death and killed. And yet in Israel they have the same rights as every other citizen. Yet they're aligning with the Palestinian protesters on most of these campuses.
KRISTEN WELKER:
We have about 30 seconds left. But quickly, I mean, Speaker Johnson says the National Guard should potentially be called in. Senator Tim Kaine said that would be a huge mistake.
MARC SHORT:
I agree with that. But I think let’s stop also and reflect. There are eight Americans still being held hostage, Kristen. Why are we – why are we – who are these protesters out there protesting against people who are actually –
JEN PSAKI:
Well, many of them are protesting the 30,000 people who died in Gaza. But – but it is not a one singular-sized issue.
KRISTEN WELKER:
It is – yeah.
MARC SHORT:
And there was a ceasefire before Hamas attacked.
KRISTEN WELKER:
It is a hugely complicated issue we will continue to discuss and debate it. Thank you for a wonderful conversation. When we come back, President Biden shows his sense of humor at the White House Correspondents’ Dinner. We'll have the highlights next.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. President Biden took on his age and his campaign rival at the White House Correspondents’ Dinner last night.
[START TAPE]
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
The 2024 election's in full swing. And yes, age is an issue. I'm a grown man running against a six-year old. But look, age is the only thing we have in common. My vice president actually endorses me.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
Biden who has held fewer news conferences than his predecessors also roasted the journalists in the room.
[START TAPE]
PRESIDENT JOE BIDEN:
Some of you complain that I don't take enough of your questions. No comment.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
While attendees celebrated the First Amendment at the dinner inside, pro-Palestinian demonstrators outside the Washington Hilton protested the president's handling of the war in Gaza. Our friend and colleague Kelly O'Donnell who is the president of the White House Correspondents' Association and a senior White House correspondent used her remarks to bring attention to journalists who've been captured or killed for doing their job, Evan Gershkovich, Austin Tice, and reporters who have been killed in Gaza. She also highlighted the need to preserve press access.
[START TAPE]
KELLY O'DONNELL:
My gratitude is multiplying because this week marks a career anniversary for me, 30 years with NBC News. We believe that independent professional journalists on hand to document the events of a presidency are stewards of something precious, more enduring than any news cycle or trending topic. We preserve the historical record, part of the legacy of the First Amendment.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
In her 30 years at NBC News, which she marked this week, Kelly has covered four presidential administrations, seven election cycles, and has been a frequent panelist on Meet the Press. So congratulations to Kelly and entire White House Correspondents' Association for another great evening highlighting the importance of journalism and a free press and for awarding scholarships to next generation of journalists. When we come back, the six-year-old who became a tiny but mighty symbol of bravery in the fight to desegregate schools. Our Meet the Moment conversation with Ruby Bridges is next.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. At just 6 years old, Ruby Bridges became a civil rights icon simply for attending her school, which was newly desegregated in 1960. Bridges and her mother had to be escorted by federal marshals under the loud jeers of segregationists who protested her pursuit of a basic education. Over the past 25 years, Bridges has been visiting schools around the country and replying to the letters of students who have sought her advice. Some of that correspondence is now in a new book, "Dear Ruby, Hear Our Hearts." I recently sat down with Ruby Bridges for a "Meet the Moment" conversation. She describes the painful experience she had as a little girl, at one point using a racial slur, words she heard at the time - as she speaks in deeply personal terms.
KRISTEN WELKER:
What do you hope people will take from your book?
RUBY BRIDGES:
You know, it took me back to being six years old and thinking about what I was going through. And I think we as adults, we underestimate the minds of our little ones. Because I know that I was having these really grown-up, adult thoughts. I was thrust into the middle of a situation that no six-year-old should be put in. And I was really thinking about all those things. And so when I started to read some of these letters, I thought, "Wow, things really haven't changed all that much." We are still underestimating our kids. They are still concerned about grown-up issues. And I heard their hearts.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Take me back to what that was like for you when you were six years old. You were being escorted by U.S. Marshals into a school that was newly desegregated. You had to sit in a classroom all by yourself. What was that walk to school like for you?
RUBY BRIDGES:
My parents never explained to me what I was about to venture into. The only they said is, "Ruby, you're going to go to a new school today, and you better behave." And living in New Orleans and being accustomed to Mardi Gras, I mean, you know we see that during Mardi Gras. Huge crowds screaming and yelling. So I often say what protected me was the innocence of a child. I thought that day I was venturing into a Mardi Gras parade. So I wasn't afraid. It took a while before I really found out that the crowds were out there for me. And that happened when I finally had an opportunity to meet another child.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Tell me about that.
RUBY BRIDGES:
Well, kids were being hidden from me. There were some white parents who tried to send their kids to school with me. But they were never protected by federal marshals like I was. So they had to cross that picket line, and they were being attacked. So even if they were not racist, it would probably be very hard for them to send their child. But they did, a few of them. And the principal was part of the opposition, so she would take them and hide them. Me, being six, I was just excited to meet other kids. But once I got into the classroom and met these other kids, a little boy said, "I can't play with you. My mom said not to because you're a [EXPLETIVE]." And the minute he said that, everything sort of came into focus for me. That it wasn't Mardi Gras. That the crowd out there was out there because of me and the color of my skin.
KRISTEN WELKER:
After you realized what these crowds were saying to you, how did you feel going to school every day walking past them? What was that like for you?
RUBY BRIDGES:
I would not really focus on them. I would block them out. And mainly because I loved school. I never missed a day. And that was because of my teacher. I had an amazing teacher who came from Boston to teach me. She was white.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Barbara Henry.
RUBY BRIDGES:
Barbara Henry. There were days when if you opened the window, because we didn't have air conditioning, you could hear them screaming and shouting and chanting. And she would go to the window and close the window and say, "Oh, today we're going to have music." You know, it was little things that she did that made me love school. I knew that if I just got past the crowd that it was a short walk, and into the building, I was going to have a great day.
KRISTEN WELKER:
What goes through your mind when you hear these debates unfold all in schools across the country about what should be taught, what should be read, what shouldn't be, access to books? What do you think about?
RUBY BRIDGES:
Well, I think that's ridiculous. I mean, most of my books have been banned. And the excuse that I've heard them give is that my story actually makes, especially white kids, feel bad about themselves. I believe that it's just an excuse not to share the truth, to cover up history. But I believe that history is sacred. That none of us should have the right to change or alter history in any way.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Are you afraid that not just your history but the history of civil rights –
RUBY BRIDGES:
Yes
KRISTEN WELKER:
– is being threatened in this country?
RUBY BRIDGES:
Those things are what we live with today. The history, all the subject matter that they want to ban, it's happening in the world. We cannot live in a bubble, put blinders on like it's not happening. And if we think that we are actually fooling our kids by banning books, oh my god, where are we really? Because kids have computers. They have so much information at their fingertips. My – I have to go to my grandbaby to say, "Tell me what's happened. Open my phone. Do this. Whatever.” All of us. So we're not – we’re not hiding anything from our young people.
KRISTEN WELKER:
If you could talk to the six-year-old Ruby Bridges, what would you say to her on that first day of school?
RUBY BRIDGES:
I would just say, "Ruby, it's okay. Don't worry. It's all going to be fine. It's going to work out."
KRISTEN WELKER:
Ruby Bridges, thank you so much.
RUBY BRIDGES:
Thank you.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Really powerful conversation there. That's all for today, thanks so much for watching. We'll be back next week, because if it's Sunday, it's Meet the Press.