KRISTEN WELKER:
This Sunday, revenge politics. Former President Trump sets off alarms about what his return to the White House could look like.
SEAN HANNITY:
You would never abuse power as retribution against anybody?
FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
Except for day one.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Plus, abortion fight. The Texas Supreme Court temporarily blocks a pregnant woman from an emergency abortion.
KATE COX:
There’s no outcome here that I take home my healthy baby girl, so it’s hard.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Will the state force her to continue her pregnancy? And, new charges. President Biden's son Hunter is indicted for the second time this year. Nine new criminal counts including tax evasion and filing false returns. What will be the political impact? Plus, under fire. The presidents of three elite universities facing backlash after their testimony at a Congressional hearing on antisemitism. And now, the president of the University of Pennsylvania has resigned.
REP. ELISE STEFANIK:
Does calling for the genocide of Jews violate Penn’s rules or code of conduct? Yes or no?
LIZ MAGILL:
If the speech turns into conduct, it can be harassment.
REP. ELISE STEFANIK:
Conduct, meaning committing the act of genocide? The answer is yes.
KRISTEN WELKER:
My guests this morning: Republican Senator Mitt Romney of Utah and Democratic Senator Chris Murphy of Connecticut. Joining me for insight and analysis are: NBC News Senior White House Correspondent Kelly O'Donnell, Jonathan Martin of Politico, Democratic pollster Cornell Belcher and Lanhee Chen, a fellow at The Hoover Institution. Welcome to Sunday. It's Meet the Press.
ANNOUNCER:
From NBC News in Washington, the longest running show in television history, this is Meet the Press with Kristen Welker.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Good Sunday morning. In many ways this week has felt like an inflection point with Israel's war against Hamas intensifying and claiming more lives and tensions boiling over here at home about how to address hate speech. Adding to the mix, with less than a week to go before lawmakers leave Washington, there is still no deal on Israel and Ukraine aid. NBC News has learned that the White House is expecting to ramp up its outreach to Capitol Hill this week. but a senior administration official is making it clear the engagement will be dependent on having a clear framework on border negotiations to work from and that hasn't yet emerged. Earlier this week, President Biden signaled he is ready to make a deal.
[START TAPE]
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
I am willing to make significant compromises on the border. We need to fix the broken border system. It is broken.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
In a new Wall Street Journal poll, just 27% approve of the president's handling of securing the border, 64% disapprove. NBC News has also learned a number of Hispanic and Latino members of congress, as well as advocacy groups, are becoming increasingly concerned that President Biden may strike a deal with Republicans on immigration that they find unacceptable in order to secure passage of his Ukraine and Israel aid package. The fear, according to one Capitol Hill Democrat: that the president will accept border policy changes proposed by Republicans that are, quote, “unimaginably cruel." Now, looming over all of it, the 2024 race for the White House and new controversial comments by former President Donald Trump. In a Fox News interview this week, he was pressed several times to say categorically that he would not abuse his presidential power if elected to a second term. Mr. Trump declined to give a denial.
[START TAPE]
SEAN HANNITY:
You are promising America tonight. You would never abuse power as retribution against anybody except for day one.
FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
Except for day one.
SEAN HANNITY:
Except for?
FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
He’s going crazy. Except for day one.
SEAN HANNITY:
Meaning?
FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
I want to close the border and I want to drill, drill, drill –
SEAN HANNITY:
– that's that's that's not – that's not retribution.
FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
I'm gonna be, I'm gonna be good. I love this guy. He says, “You're not going to be a dictator, are you?” I said, “No, no, no. Other than day one.”
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
And joining me now is Republican Senator Mitt Romney of Utah. Romney, of course, was the Republican nominee for president in 2012. Senator Romney, welcome back to Meet the Press. Thank you for being here.
SEN. MITT ROMNEY:
Happy to join you, Kristen.
KRISTEN WELKER:
A lot of headlines to get to, but let's start with that Texas abortion case. The State Supreme Court, as you know, put a hold on a lower court's decision to allow Kate Cox to have what her doctors say would be a medically necessary and potentially life-saving abortion. Now, her fetus has been diagnosed with a fatal condition and if she carries it to term, doctors say it could jeopardize her ability to have more children in the future, something that she says she very much wants. What is your reaction, and should Kate Cox have the ability to terminate her pregnancy?
SEN. MITT ROMNEY:
Well, I'm not going to stand in for the courts. They're going to evaluate the evidence. I am pro-life, but people like me that are pro-life also believe that when a woman's life is in danger, the opportunity for an abortion should be apparent for her. So, we'll see what the court ultimately gets to. But, recognize, after the Supreme Court overturned Roe v. Wade and the decision went back to the elected officials in the various states, there are a lot of parameters and nuances that haven't been sorted through yet. That's going to happen in Texas and other places. And, ultimately, we're going to find a settled understanding.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And, as you're indicating, you did support overturning Roe v. Wade. But was this what you imagined when you supported Roe v. Wade being overturned, that a woman who'd been told by her doctors that she needs an abortion, potentially to save her own life, would be denied one?
SEN. MITT ROMNEY:
Well, I think the question here will be whether or not, in fact, her life is at risk. And if it is at risk, then I think, under Texas law, although I'm not an expert in Texas law, under Texas law, she'll be allowed to have an abortion. But each state's going to have to make this decision. You know, stepping back, I think you have to recognize when you have an issue that the nation is divided on, where – particularly when it's a moral issue, when some people feel it's a moral wrong to have an abortion and others feels – feel that it should be a moral right for a woman to be able to choose, in a setting like that, you don't want to have a – a small group decide to impose their will on everybody else. There's got to be some kind of meeting towards the middle. That hasn't happened yet. I hope that does happen in Texas and every other state. And, ultimately, that's the way America works. We – we can't have people pulling each other apart and insisting that they have to have 100% of what they want and the other side gets nothing of what they want.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, and speaking of that, Texas attorney general Ken Paxton, who is fighting the lower court's decision, is threatening criminal prosecution for anyone who helps Kate Cox get an abortion, including her doctors. Does that go too far? Do you think that her doctors should be punished if the court rules that she is entitled to this abortion?
SEN. MITT ROMNEY:
Well, certainly, in Texas, as in every other state, they're going to follow the law. But I think, in many cases, politicians play to their base, play to the crowd. In this case, let's let the courts adjudicate what the parameters are going to be of – of abortion in Texas and elsewhere. And, ultimately, this has got to be settled not by one side, again, imposing its will on everybody else but both sides working together, where each gets something. And that hasn't happened yet.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Okay. Let's turn to those comments that we just played by Former President Donald Trump. As you heard, he said he would not be a dictator except for day one. At an event in New York last night, he tried to downplay that, but what was your reaction to hearing those words, Senator? Do you believe him?
SEN. MITT ROMNEY:
You know, when I was a kid, there was something called a gumball machine. You could put a penny in, and a gumball would come out. It was automatic. There was no filter. Put in the penny, out came the gumball. Donald Trump is kind of a human gumball machine, which is a thought or a notion comes in, and it comes out of his mouth. There's not a lot of filter that goes on. There's not a lot of, "What's the implication?" No, no. He just says whatever. I don't attach an enormous amount of impact to the particular words that come out and trying to evaluate each one of them. I do think you can look at his record as president, and particularly in the last months of his presidency, and say, "This is a dangerous approach. It's an authoritarian approach." That gives me far more concern than – than him playing to the crowd as he did.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, given that you're saying he gives these unfiltered responses, we have actually seen him do what he says he's going to do when he said that he believed the election was going to be rigged before people actually went to the polls. He went on to question the results, tried to overturn the results of the 2020 election. Why don't you take him exactly at his word?
SEN. MITT ROMNEY:
Oh, I think we agree that we have looked at his behavior, and his behavior suggests that this is a person who will impose his will, if he can, on the judicial system, on the legislative branch, and on the entire nation. I mean, when he called people to come to Washington, DC on January 6th, that was not a random date. That was a date when peaceful transfer of power was to occur. He called that on purpose. There's no question he has authoritarian rulings, and interests, and notions which he will try and impose. That's dangerous for the country. It was dangerous then. Life was lost. We were embarrassed around the world. I mean, this was a tragedy. And a number of the things he did in the last months of his presidency suggest what he'd do if he were elected again.
KRISTEN WELKER:
I want to drill down on you on just how dangerous, as you say, you perceive former President Trump to be. Liz Cheney put this into dire terms this week. She told my colleague, Savannah Guthrie, quote, "There's no question Trump would refuse to leave office if he's reelected." She went so far as to say, "A vote for him may mean the last election that you ever get to vote in." Do you agree with that assessment?
SEN. MITT ROMNEY:
I don't think Donald Trump would want to stay in longer than four years. And the reason I say that is because I – I think he is running for retribution, and I think he will have finished his retribution after four years, if he's elected. I don't think he particularly likes being around the White House. I think he'd rather be back at Mar-a-Lago or other properties of his. But he wants to show that he's not a loser, he won. And he wants to go after the people who were tough on him. So, I think he'll be finished after four years and go back to other occupations.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Given everything that we have heard from former President Trump, what do you think a second Trump term would look like?
SEN. MITT ROMNEY:
Well, I think if you can look at the last few months of his presidency, you'd suggest that that's the kind of thing you might see, that he would not have the generals around him as he did last time: people of judgment and experience offering advice and, in some cases, restraining his impulses.
Instead, he would have people around him encouraging his impulses and perhaps adding to them. And I'm afraid you'd –you'd find the nation more divided. Look – look, our nation doesn't need to be divided right now. A – a campaign based on anger and hate may win at the ballot box temporarily, but it tears the country apart. The other day, the president – the former president said that we are at greater threat for what is within. I think that was, in some respects, a self-own, because what's within, if he were to become elected president again, is a campaign of retribution, and anger, and hate. That's not what America's based on. America was based on the idea of in “God we trust” and “united we stand,” divided we fall. Divided nation is not the nation America is intended to be.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Alright. Well, let's move on to Hunter Biden and the headlines around that. As you know, he was indicted on nine new tax charges this week, the second time he has been indicted by the special counsel this year alone. His lawyer said that if his name was anything other than Biden, the charges would not have been brought. What's your reaction to that?
SEN. MITT ROMNEY:
Well, if his name were anything other than Biden, he wouldn't have been able to bilk millions of dollars from foreign entities, so let's start there. And not only did he take all this money from foreign entities, trading on his father's name, which is ugly and unsavory, he then didn't pay taxes on it, according to the prosecutors. We'll see if they can prove that case. But if they can, he violated U.S. law and should be severely punished for having done so.
KRISTEN WELKER:
As you know, House Republicans have signaled that they may vote as early as this week on an impeachment inquiry into President Biden, despite the fact that they haven't shown, yet, a direct link between Hunter Biden's business dealings and President Biden. Have you seen any evidence that President Biden has committed high crimes and misdemeanors?
SEN. MITT ROMNEY:
No. I – I – I don't see any evidence of that at all. I think before you begin an impeachment inquiry, you ought to have some evidence, some inclination that there's been wrongdoing. And so far, there's nothing of that nature that's been provided.
KRISTEN WELKER:
So, are you opposed to the impeachment inquiry?
SEN. MITT ROMNEY:
Well, if I were in the House, I'd vote against it unless they were able to bring forward evidence that suggested there were a high crime or misdemeanor that had been committed. But so far, that hasn't been the case. Look – look, fortunately for most people, we're not responsible for the misdeeds of our kids, and grandkids, and great-grandkids. Nothing in my family I'm embarrassed about, but President Trump’s – excuse me President Biden's son, Hunter, has obviously been a very unsavory person and has had some extremely damaged personal foibles, including a drug habit and so forth. That's not President Biden. And we're not going to impeach someone because of the sins of their kids.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Okay. Let's talk about that aid package on the Hill, which is under a lot of debate, as you know. The Senate has one week left to negotiate this aid package for Israel and Ukraine. Republicans are holding a hard line on border security. What are the implications of not passing aid to Ukraine right now, Senator?
SEN. MITT ROMNEY:
Well, I don't know specifically how quickly the money has to get to Ukraine and the armament has to get to Ukraine, whether we could wait until January. But I can say just a couple things. One is it's not just Republicans that are holding a hard line. It's Democrats that are holding a hard line. Either side can move and – and can get this done. And here's the position of my side and our side, and that is we have gone from 1,000 to 2,000 encounters, illegal encounters at the border a day under the three prior presidents, under Bush, Obama, and Trump. One to 2,000 a day. Now, we're seeing 10,000 to 12,000 a day. As Pennsylvania Senator John Fetterman said, “We're basically seeing Pittsburgh show up at the border every month,” all right? We're at a rate of incursions into the country of about 4 million a year. That's larger than the population of 24 of our states. So, we want to solve that, to secure the border. I just saw the president of the United States say that we've got to secure the border. He's right. So, any effort that doesn't do that will be rejected by Republicans. We want to get it back to the level that existed under the three prior presidents.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And you're right. I know that this is a priority for Republicans, and you're right. President Biden has said he's willing to negotiate. It was described to me, you have to get through all of the disagreement around the border to even start addressing the Ukraine and Israel piece of it. Taking a step back, what message do you think it sends to President Putin, to President Xi, when they see that there are a growing number of Republicans who are opposed to writing what they say is a blank check to Ukraine?
SEN. MITT ROMNEY:
Well, we're not going to write a blank check. We're going to evaluate exactly how the money is spent. What we're going to do is provide Ukraine with the weapons they need to defend themselves against a brutal invasion by Putin, who is a thug and a murderer. So, that's – that’s what we're going to do. Now, I think Putin and Xi recognize that democracy is messy, that our system is not authoritarian. We don't have a king. We don't have a dictator. They're dictators. They like to make a big deal out of the process that we go through. But you know what? It has worked for America in the past. It'll work in the future. We'll get through this. And, ultimately, don't forget, the president was the one that put the – put the border and the border security issue as part of this package, this is not a Republican issue. He brought it in the front, and that's why we're dealing with it.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And – and just very quickly, I mean, you were the first person to call attention to Russia, what you described, "Our number one geopolitical foe." Are you comfortable with your party's position on Ukraine?
SEN. MITT ROMNEY:
Well, each individual makes their own posture known on a particular issue. My own view is that it's very much in America's interest to see Ukraine successful and to provide the weapons that Ukraine needs to defend itself. Anything other than that would be a huge dereliction of our responsibility, I believe to the world of democracy but also to our own national interest. Because if Putin thinks he can invade his neighbor with impunity and that we're just going to step back, that we're going to say, "Oh, we're tired; we're not going to keep on helping," then, guess what? He's not going to stop. And he's going to go into a NATO nation that's going to draw NATO and our troops into war with Russia. This is in America's interest to make sure that Ukraine puts up a great fight.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Senator Romney, thank you. Stay with us. We have a lot more after the break, including, "Will Senator Romney endorse a candidate in the 2024 race?" Plus, three top university presidents are under fire for their responses to a congressional hearing on antisemitism. More with Senator Romney after the break.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. University of Pennsylvania president Liz Magill resigned on Saturday after facing intense criticism from alumni, lawmakers, and the White House for dodging a question at a congressional hearing about antisemitism on campus. In a five-hour House hearing on Tuesday, Magill and her counterparts at Harvard and MIT evaded questions about whether students should be disciplined if they call for genocide of Jews.
[START TAPE]
REP. ELISE STEFANIK:
I am asking specifically calling for the genocide of Jews, does that constitute bullying or harassment?
LIZ MAGILL:
If it is directed and severe or pervasive, it is harassment.
REP. ELISE STEFANIK:
So, the answer is yes?
LIZ MAGILL:
It is a context-dependent decision, Congresswoman.
REP. ELISE STEFANIK:
So, the answer is yes, that calling for the genocide of Jews violates Harvard code of conduct, correct?
CLAUDINE GAY:
Again, it depends on the context.
REP. ELISE STEFANIK:
It does not depend on the context. The answer is yes, and this is why you should resign.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
And Senator Mitt Romney is still here with us. Senator, let me just get your reaction to what we just witnessed. Again, the president of the University of Pennsylvania has now resigned. Should the other two presidents resign?
SEN. MITT ROMNEY:
Well I'm not going to tell them what they should do, but what they did in that hearing was absolutely repugnant, was outrageous, incomprehensible. It – it violates the very premises of – of American unity. We're a diverse nation. Not to recognize that calling for the genocide of a people is awful, is a hate crime. This was an extraordinary breach on the part of the judgment of the heads of these universities. And people are saying, "Wait a second. If a conservative speaker wanted to come stop – come to their campus, oh, they'd be all outraged. 'No, they can't come there.' But they're saying it's okay for people to call for genocide of the Jewish people?" And, by the way, this is not just about Jews. It's about members of Islam. I mean it's about tolerance for people who are different in our country. And these university presidents have to stand up for that. Their failure to do so was an extraordinary failure.
KRISTEN WELKER:
You take me to my next question, Senator, because you're right. It's about antisemitism, yet it's about Islamophobia. It's about hate in all of its forms. Does Congress have a role to play in addressing the issue of hate on college campuses? Should Congress be more engaged in what's happening?
SEN. MITT ROMNEY:
Yeah, not by creating law, but by creating example. And recognize that the people we choose as our leaders are not just going to write law and effectuate policy. They're also setting the character of the country. It's one of the reasons I have such concern about President Trump, which is he has affected the character of America. Look, we are a diverse nation, whether people want it to be that way or not. We are highly diverse, not just by ethnicity but also by religion, by – by sexual orientation. I mean there are a whole series of dimensions on which we're diverse. That's who we are. You may not like it. That's who we are. And the only way a nation as diverse as us is able to be strong is if we recognize the divine nature of humanity, we recognize one another, their faults, and we don't attack each other. Tearing down other Americans, retribution, revenge, anger, that is not the future of a great country.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Let's turn now to the 2024 race, as you bring up Former President Trump. Why haven't you endorsed a candidate yet, Senator? And do you plan to do so?
SEN. MITT ROMNEY:
Well, because if I endorse someone, it would be the kiss of death. No, I'm not going to do that. Maybe I should – I should pick – shall I – shall I endorse the person I like least right now? I'm – I’m not going to be endorsing President Trump, obviously. I've made that very clear. Look, Chris Christie has done a terrific job so far. I think his being in the race has kept Donald Trump from coming to – to the debates, because I think Donald Trump recognized if he went to the debate with Chris Christie, Chris Christie would reveal him for what he was, and – and Trump would be badly hurt, so he stayed out. But Nikki Haley, she's rising. Right now, I think she's the only one that has a shot at becoming the nominee other than President Trump. It's a long shot in her part, but she's the one that has a shot, so we'll see.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Do you think it's time for other candidates – not Nikki Haley, since you think she’s has the momentum right now – to drop out of the race to start consolidating their support, given what you're saying?
SEN. MITT ROMNEY:
Yeah, I don't think it's my role to tell other people when they should get out. It's too big of a sacrifice and investment by people and their supporters to be running for president, for someone to come in and say, "Hey, you ought to get out."
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yeah.
SEN. MITT ROMNEY:
But I hope it continues to consolidate and it becomes, at some point, a two-person race. But even then, I think Donald Trump is the prohibitive favorite.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Let me ask you a little bit more about what Liz Cheney said. She said the country would be better run by Democrats than by Donald Trump and MAGA Republicans. That's not an exact quote, but that's effectively what she has said. Do you agree with her there?
SEN. MITT ROMNEY:
Well, President Biden's policies have not worked for America. You know I know that the economic statistics are looking better right now, but the American people are hurting. As they go into the grocery store and bread costs $5 a loaf, they recognize that that's the result of Biden's policy. So, I'm not going to say Biden's policies are good for America. There are some Democrats out there that I think would do a better job. I hope someone besides President Biden is the nominee of the Democrat Party. We'd see who that might be.
KRISTEN WELKER:
You wrote your wife's name in for president in 2016 and 2020. If there is, in fact, a Biden and Trump rematch, would you vote for President Biden, given what you are saying about former President Trump?
SEN. MITT ROMNEY:
The Joe I would like to vote for is Joe Manchin. And I'm not going to tell you right now who I'm going to vote for. Fortunately for me, I'm in a state that's not a swing state. It's not a state in contest. Whoever I vote for in Utah, Utah's going to be for Donald Trump. So, it's kind of irrelevant. But I typically vote for Ann for that reason.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Do you think that Senator Manchin's going to run?
SEN. MITT ROMNEY:
No, I don't, but I wish he would.
KRISTEN WELKER:
You're going to encourage him to--
SEN. MITT ROMNEY:
I wish he'd be the Democratic nominee. And, by the way--
KRISTEN WELKER:
Okay.
SEN. MITT ROMNEY:
– there are a couple of Democrats I might think of that would be a better nominee, I think, than President Biden.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Just to put a fine point on it, though, it sounds like you're not ruling out voting for President Biden.
SEN. MITT ROMNEY:
I'm not going to describe who I'll rule out, other than President Trump. I just, you have a setting where you have someone who's too old and someone else who's a little too nutty. And where are you going to vote on that basis? And, by the way, in my view, bad policy we can overcome as a country.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yeah.
SEN. MITT ROMNEY:
We have in the past.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yeah.
SEN. MITT ROMNEY:
Bad character is something which is very difficult to overcome.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Let me ask you: If Donald Trump is the Republican nominee but loses to President Biden, do you think the certification process will be peaceful, or are you concerned that it may not be?
SEN. MITT ROMNEY:
Oh, I think it'll be peaceful. I don't think there's any question but that Vice President Kamala Harris will not try and reject electors from states that are certifying President Biden has won. I just don't think America is going to erupt. But I know there'll be some people who hope that would occur.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Let's talk about you and your future, your decision to leave the Senate. You've been adamant you're not going to run for president, so I won't ask you that question. But what is next for you, Senator?
SEN. MITT ROMNEY:
I came here to ask you whether, perhaps, a position here at NBC News would be available for me. No. I don't have the answer to that. I will continue to work to keep America the hope of the earth and the hope of the people in this country. And whether that's by lecturing in universities, or going around the country and speaking, or writing another book or two, or maybe just getting behind some of Ann's ambitions these days. My wife is leading an extraordinary center for neurologic research. I mean, life is so fantastic. It's so wonderful, being alive. And I don't worry about my next chapter.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right. I have to ask you about your dad, George Romney, who was, of course, the governor of Michigan. He also ran for president. You have called him your life's hero. What would he think about the state of the Republican Party today?
SEN. MITT ROMNEY:
Oh, he would not understand it. He would not believe it. The party's very different than it was. Look, and I'm reading a lot of history. I'm reading a book right now called The Age of Acrimony. It talks about American politics in the 1800s and the early 1900s. Holy cow, the parties were so different back then. When I ran in 2012, the party's different than it is today. President Trump became our nominee. We got all sorts of new people who'd been Democrats forever that flowed into the Republican Party, and a lot of people left. And so, it's a different party today than it was then. I think he'd be surprised to see how much it's changed. And I think the social and cultural division that you're seeing today would be of concern to him. But don't forget: When he was a governor, we had race riots, even in his home state of Michigan, in Detroit. So, we're wrestling with some of these divisive issues even today.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right. Senator Mitt Romney, you are welcome back anytime. Thank you so much for being here. Really appreciate it.
SEN. MITT ROMNEY:
Thanks, Kristen.
KRISTEN WELKER:
When we come back, Republicans are demanding changes to border security before agreeing to send military aid to Ukraine and Israel. Is a deal within reach? Democratic Senator Chris Murphy of Connecticut, lead negotiator, joins me next.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. A bipartisan group of senators restarted border talks on Thursday, offering dim hope that Congress can pass a broad legislative package that include aid for Israel and Ukraine before the end of the year. The president signaled he is ready to compromise.
[START TAPE]
REPORTER:
Would you be okay with them possibly to put more on border policy to get this current package through?
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
Yes. Significantly more. Particularly, by starting off equipping the border capacity that we need on the border, from judges to more border security.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
And Senator Chris Murphy of Connecticut, the lead Democratic negotiator in those talks, joins me now. Welcome back to Meet the Press, Senator.
SEN. CHRIS MURPHY:
Thanks for having me back.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Thank you so much for being here. So bring us up to speed. What's the very latest on the negotiations? Where do things stand?
SEN. CHRIS MURPHY:
So, first I think it's absolutely tragic that Republicans are tying the resolution of maybe the most difficult issue in American politics, immigration, to support for Ukraine and Israel. Vladimir Putin is delighting right now in Republicans' insistence that we get a deal on immigration reform. And if we don't, then they are going to allow Vladimir Putin to march into Ukraine, and perhaps into Europe. I think this is one of the most dangerous moments that I've ever faced in American politics. And I wish Republicans weren't holding Israel aid and aid to Ukraine hostage to the resolution of immigration reform. That being said, we are still in the room, trying to deal with Republican demands. We are not going to put Donald Trump's immigration policies into statute. We're not going to do that. That would be bad for the country. But we do need to do something to try to resolve this crisis at the border. We have too many people crossing, too many people that don't have valid asylum claims. And if Republicans are serious about trying to control that crisis, while also still allowing into the country people who are legitimately fleeing terror, and torture, and violence, then we can come to a resolution.
KRISTEN WELKER:
I want to delve into some of the details with you. But give us a gut check. How close are you to a deal? Is this going to get done before the new year, Senator?
SEN. CHRIS MURPHY:
I mean, right now, Republican demands are unreasonable. They don't actually get Democratic votes. If I were a cynic, I would say that Republicans have decided to tie support for Ukraine to immigration reform, because they want Ukraine aid to fail. But I'm not a cynic. And so we are still trying to resolve some pretty big differences that remain.
KRISTEN WELKER:
You don't sound very optimistic that this is going to get done with the handful of days that you have left.
SEN. CHRIS MURPHY:
We are coming up against the end of the year. And of course this is a crisis moment for Ukraine. Ukraine is running out of ammunition. And if we don't solve this in the next few weeks, Vladimir Putin is going to have an opening, an opening to march through the Ukrainian lines, to make a move on Kyiv, threatening all of Europe. So this has to be resolved right now, which is why Republicans have to be reasonable. We are not going to solve the entire problem of immigration between now and the end of the year, but we can make a down payment.
KRISTEN WELKER:
We know that based on our reporting, the White House is going to get more engaged. Should the president himself get involved in these negotiations this week?
SEN. CHRIS MURPHY:
I think the White House is going to get more engaged this week. Of course when you're talking about something as complicated as border security, you need the White House engaged, because you need to know whether they're going to sign the bill. And you need to understand how the changes you're making are going to be implemented at the border. So, they are, and they will get more engaged.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Let's talk about some of the sticking points. I know you're not going to negotiate with me here. But if you could give me a sense of where potential common ground could be. We know that Republicans are asking to toughen the asylum criteria. We know that they want new restrictions on the use of parole. Are those potential areas of compromise for Democrats?
SEN. CHRIS MURPHY:
I think the bottom line for Democrats – and the bottom line for my constituents – is pretty simple. We don't want to shut off the United States of America to people who are coming here to be rescued from dangerous, miserable circumstances, in which their life is in jeopardy. That’s the best of America is that you can come here to be rescued from terror and torture. So, we are not going to support anything that shuts down the border completely to people who are legitimately coming here to have their lives rescued. But we are willing to talk about tightening some of the rules, so that you don't have 10,000 people arriving a day. Our resources are not equipped to be able to handle that number of people. So, let's reduce the number of people who are coming here, but let's not shut down the border completely to legitimate claims.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, and Republicans would argue, many of them, they're not calling to completely shut down the border, but as you say, to make it tougher to get through. If you look at the poll numbers, the latest Wall Street Journal poll shows a whopping 64% of people disapprove of President Biden's handling of the border. Does that add pressure on you, on Democrats, to get something done here?
SEN. CHRIS MURPHY:
Well, listen. I'm not paying attention to the politics here. What I know is that the future of the world is at stake. If we fail, if Republicans don't get reasonable in the next 24 to 48 hours, Russia is going to march into Ukraine. China is going to be given a green light to invade Taiwan. The world, for my children, is fundamentally different under that scenario. The United States security is at risk. So, I am just beside myself. The Republicans are playing games with the security of the world. I will try to meet them where they are, but this is a very dangerous point.
KRISTEN WELKER:
I want to ask you about Ukraine aid. You are giving these dire warnings here. We have consistently heard you say that. Can an extra $60 billion in aid change the outcome of this war? Or will it just allow Ukraine to continue with the status quo?
SEN. CHRIS MURPHY:
It can change the outcome of this war. Because at the very same time that we are making a renewed commitment to Ukraine, Russia's ability to continue to fight this war is in jeopardy. You look at the revenues from oil sales, the projections for the next year. Russia's going to have a hard time coming up with the resources necessary to keep this fight going. In the end, will there likely have to be a negotiated solution? Absolutely. But if we cut off Ukraine now, the outcome is certain. The outcome is certain, Ukraine loses this war – maybe not next month, but some time next year. Because Europe will not stick with us, if the United States abandons Ukraine. This is a decision moment for Ukraine, for the United States, and the world.
KRISTEN WELKER:
I do want to ask you about some of the other headlines this week. Hunter Biden has been indicted again on tax charges. Do you think the Hunter Biden prosecution is political, as his lawyer has contended? Or do you think that it's legally justified?
SEN. CHRIS MURPHY:
I think it's legally justified. I think this is a very troubled individual, who has done things that are worthy of prosecution. And so I look forward to that case continuing. I think ultimately the American people understand that Hunter Biden is not going to be on the ballot next fall, that Joe Biden's going to be on the ballot, and that this is a president who has led an economic recovery that has been pretty unprecedented. That's, I think, going to be what matters to the American people.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Senator Mitt Romney was here, and he expressed outrage over the broader issue of Hunter Biden profiting off of his last name. Do you think, Senator, that it is inappropriate for a politician's family member to profit off of their last name?
SEN. CHRIS MURPHY:
I do – in any case. And frankly, when I look at the Trump family, it seems that they have made an industry out of profiting off of Donald Trump's presidency. In fact, as soon as Donald Trump was out of the White House, what did his son-in-law do? Go and raise billions of dollars from Saudi Arabia. And so, I think the American public are going to be very concerned about what has happened inside the Trump family since Donald Trump left the White House.
KRISTEN WELKER:
But, Senator, respectfully, I asked you about the Biden family, Hunter Biden. Do you think it's inappropriate that he has apparently profited off his last name? And could that hurt the president's reelection chances?
SEN. CHRIS MURPHY:
I think Hunter Biden is going to be held accountable in court for any violations of the law that he's committed. And the American public are going to get the chance to watch that play out in real time. But what I am absolutely certain of is that the American public are going to see a distinct contrast between Joe Biden and Donald Trump. And they're not going to be interested in a Trump presidency that's going to criminalize abortion, that's going to give more handouts to billionaires and the wealthy. They're going to see President Biden, who has invested in the middle class, who has helped this economy recover. That will be the contrast that will matter to the American people.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Senator Chris Murphy, thank you so much. Thanks for being here in person.
SEN. CHRIS MURPHY:
Thank you.
KRISTEN WELKER:
We really appreciate it. When we come back, will Iowa voters look beyond Trump, as their party nominee? What history tells us about how important winning Iowa really is for a presidential campaign.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. We're now just five weeks away from the Iowa caucuses and the very first votes of the 2024 presidential cycle. Historically, Iowa hasn't been a great predictor of Republican nominees. Ted Cruz, Rick Santorum and Mike Huckabee all won the state. None of them became their party's nominee. In 1988, Kansas Senator Bob Dole also won Iowa. The eventual nominee George H.W. Bush finished a distant third. Senator Dole joined this broadcast the day before the caucuses:
[START TAPE]
R. W. APPLE:
Can you afford to lose here? Are you finished if you don't finish first?
SEN. BOB DOLE:
No, I don't think I'm finished, but I'd like to do well here. But I haven't moved since 1980, and I ran in 1980 and it wasn't the – the neighborhood that made me finish last. I think it's the fact that I've been dealing with the issues since that time, I have a message to the Iowa voters. And what we want is a signal to go out here tomorrow night that the Bob Dole message was accepted by a majority of people that went to the Republican caucuses.
R. W. APPLE:
A majority of the people? You're looking for 50 percent, are you?
SEN. BOB DOLE:
Well, I mean a plurality. Excuse me. A little oversight.
R. W. APPLE:
Can you survive a loss here?
SEN. BOB DOLE:
Oh, yes, a loss is a loss. A win is a win.
R. W. APPLE:
Well, that's certainly –
SEN. BOB DOLE:
Very profound.
R. W. APPLE:Yes, it is. Gertrude Stein would have loved it.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
A loss is a loss and a win is a win. Good stuff there. Alright, when we come back, what’s the political impact for President Biden as his son faces a new set of criminal charges? The panel is next.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. The panel is here. NBC News Senior White House Correspondent Kelly O'Donnell, Jonathan Martin, senior political columnist for Politico, Democratic pollster Cornell Belcher, and Lanhee Chen, a fellow at the Hoover Institution and former Romney campaign policy director. Thanks to all of you for being here. Kelly, let me start with you. There's this new Wall Street Journal poll which shows that former President Trump is leading President Biden by four points. Take us inside Biden world. How concerning is this? And I know within this context you've got new reporting on how they might use the issue of abortion, which we've obviously been talking about here, in 2024.
KELLY O'DONNELL:
The first reaction is that bad poll numbers are something that are somewhat baked in the minds of people who are close to the president. They've seen it before and then they turn quickly and look at recent elections, and say, "When voters are asked to not just respond to a survey but to cast a ballot, they have done so in ways that match up with some of the president's priorities." We saw it in November in Virginia with the state legislature. We saw it in Ohio with respect to abortion. On abortion, the new reporting is that the campaign will more aggressively tie Donald Trump to every incidence in America where there is a restriction, a ban on abortion, when there is abortion in the news. You were talking with Senator Romney about the Texas case. To say Ken Paxton, the state attorney general there, was endorsed by Donald Trump. And so they want to link Trump in every way to the change in people's lives with respect to abortion. And to then say, "That is the kind of position you would have." When Donald Trump talks about day one being an authoritarian, a dictator, they're saying, "Day by day he's becoming more autocratic." And so if they look at something practical, like abortion, that's a way to get at it. Democracy might be more theoretical for many Americans, and so abortion is a way where they can link him to that day by day.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Fascinating. Jonathan, you heard Mitt Romney. A couple of things that stood to me. One, he did not rule out voting for President Biden.
JONATHAN MARTIN:
Yes.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Number two, he said he'd like to see Joe Manchin run.
JONATHAN MARTIN:
Yes.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Is that realistic? I mean, we've been trying to get an answer –
JONATHAN MARTIN:
No.
KRISTEN WELKER:
– out of Joe Manchin.
JONATHAN MARTIN:
I don't think Joe Manchin is running for president and I think Mitt Romney is going to have a choice next fall that he's not thrilled about. But I think ultimately he will come down on the side of picking President Biden. It's a matter of how public he is about that, and whether or not he tries to avoid the question a few more times between now and then. But that's the option. And by the way, not just Mitt Romney. I think a lot of what are called kind of the pre-Trump GOP figures in this country – George W. Bush, Liz Cheney – they're not thrilled about Joe Biden, but that's going to be the option they have. And I think they're going to be challenged next year, especially if President Trump keeps talking in a sort of autocratic fashion of, "You don't like Biden's policies, but do you really want this as the alternative?" Which is why you see so many people like Romney say, "Maybe it'll be a different Democrat. Maybe somebody else will emerge I can vote for." Because they're desperate to not have that Biden/Trump option. But that increasingly seems like that is where we're going right now. And so I think, look, they're going to have to pick.
KRISTEN WELKER:
It sure does. Lanhee Chen, you were policy director for Mitt Romney when he was running for president. A lot of people want to compare this moment, a lot of Democrats, to 2012. They say, "Hey, remember when former President Biden – or Obama, I should say, was locked in a fierce fight with Governor Romney?" But is it the same as 2012?
LANHEE CHEN:
I don't think so. I mean, I went back and looked at the numbers as an example. In 2012, at this point in that campaign, Barack Obama either had a narrow lead, or in some cases he had as much as an eight-point lead in the head-to-head against Mitt Romney. The challenge in this election is really twofold for the president. I think first of all, the issues on which he's weakest, the economy and immigration in that Wall Street Journal poll, happen to be the issues that Americans care most about, if you believe that poll. The other challenge he has is that, look – and I think this applies to Donald Trump as well – they are both equally disliked, to Jonathan's point. If you look at their very unfavorable ratings, these ratings of great intensity sort of saying, "Who do you really like, who do you really dislike," Donald Trump and Joe Biden are equally disliked with an equal amount of fervor, 50%. It's a remarkable number. This is the election no American wants. It's not just the elites. Americans don't want this election.
KRISTEN WELKER:
It is extraordinary.
CORNELL BELCHER:
Well, look, I think there are some differences. There's some huge differences between now and 2012. But I will say this. In the public polling, no. Actually, Mitt Romney was ahead of Barack Obama in the public polling. In internal polling, it was different. But let me say this about – about – about polling. Enough with all the polling, right? It's not predictive of what's going to happen in the presidential election.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Even though there are a number of polls pointing to the same thing?
CORNELL BELCHER:
Listen, this is why we use polling in campaigns. This is what we use polling for in campaigns. We use polling to see what the problem is and how you build a campaign to fix the problem. When I see that 47-43 number, I'm not at all concerned about – about what's going to happen in the future. By the way, I'm actually emboldened, because I know, quite frankly, where Donald Trump's going to be. He gets 47%, 46%. He – he wins by subtraction, not addition. Now, underneath that poll what you have there is what I call the Obama continuum, right. These – these younger voters, who are not necessarily strongly tied to either Democratic or Republican, although they're a lot more progressive on – on most issues and that's where Biden right now is suffering the most. And these are not going to ever be Trump voters. So the campaign they're going to have to build –
KELLY O'DONNELL:
Is work to win.
CORNELL BELCHER:
– is work to bring those young voters back.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Jonathan?
JONATHAN MARTIN:
The thing is that they don't vote at all, or even more ominous –
CORNELL BELCHER:
That is a risk.
JONATHAN MARTIN:
Or more ominously for Biden, you have 10,000 voters or more in Madison, Wisconsin, Ann Arbor, Michigan, who pull a lever for Jill Stein or Cornel West. That is devastating to Biden's coalition.
CORNELL BELCHER:
That's 2016 all over again. I'm more worried about third-party voting than I am worried about Trump doing.
KELLY O'DONNELL:
And the campaign tells me that they are aware of that, and so they don't believe that with Black and Brown voters and young voters they can just do traditional “get out to vote.” They have to do persuasion, active persuasion, to remind voters about things like the trouble spots you mentioned: economic issues.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And one of the –
CORNELL BELCHER:
But also –
KRISTEN WELKER:
Go ahead.
CORNELL BELCHER:
Real quick, but also, look, I came out in the field with a poll two weeks ago, and this is what actually helps him, right, is the comparison to Trump. When they ask African American voters, talking about African American voters, a closed end list of what's the greatest threat to the African American community? Inflation, crime, the reelection of Donald Trump. Reelection of Donald Trump by a plurality of the African American voters think that that's the greatest threat to the African American community. Not inflation, not crime, but Donald Trump.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And we got a new –
KELLY O'DONNELL:
And that's a motivator?
CORNELL BELCHER:
That's a motivator.
KRISTEN WELKER:
We got a new data point in the race, of course, this week. Which is that the son of President Biden has been indicted yet again, and that Republicans are moving to open an impeachment inquiry into President Biden despite there not being a link yet. Here's what he had to say about that inquiry this week:
[START TAPE]
REPORTER:
Can you explain to the Americans, to Americans about this impeachment inquiry, why you interacted with so many of your son and brother's foreign business associates?
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
I'm not going to comment on that. I did not and it's just a bunch of lies.
REPORTER:
You didn't interact with either of their business associates?
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
They're lies. I did not. They're lies.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
Kelly, fired up there. We should note those comments were made before Hunter Biden was indicted. What is the strategy to deal with this inside the White House?
KELLY O'DONNELL:
It's painful. It's personal. They want to put it in that category. They also say that in 2020 Hunter Biden was a fixture of the Republican campaign. And I think they want to talk about voters able to separate the candidate's son from the candidate. And they think Republicans are trying to use this to diffuse the legal troubles of Donald Trump.
JONATHAN MARTIN:
No, find me the Biden White House adviser who's going to go to the boss and say, "We need a new strategy about your son."
KELLY O'DONNELL:
There isn't one.
JONATHAN MARTIN:
They’re not going to have that conversation.
LANHEE CHEN:
That muddies the waters. That's the challenge that they have.
JONATHAN MARTIN:
Of course.
LANHEE CHEN:
– is that this is an issue on which they could potentially prosecute Donald Trump. They're going to have to turn this into a referendum on Donald Trump. And if they're going to use the issue which they want to use, which is the character of Donald Trump, this muddies the waters for the White House. And that's the challenge here, is really how do they overcome this. And someone has to speak truth to power on this.
CORNELL BELCHER:
I just think –
LANHEE CHEN:
Someone has to make that point.
CORNELL BELCHER:
I just think – I just think what your child does, as most parents understand, does not muddy my waters, right? That what – If your child gets in trouble, that does not muddy my waters. Here's the other thing. Look, don't take it from me, take it from Chip Roy, right, Republican. What is the House – what have House Republicans done that they can run on? Right? Last time I checked, I've been in focus groups for the last two months, no middle American working mom, is bringing up Hunter Biden. She's bringing up costs. She's bringing up student loans.
LANHEE CHEN:
And yet –
CORNELL BELCHER:
She's not talking about Hunter Biden. This is the issue they want to go into –
LANHEE CHEN:
And yet Republicans are winning on the generic ballot. And yet it's the case that Republicans in Congress –
CORNELL BELCHER:
They are always at this time winning on the generic ballot –
LANHEE CHEN:
– not favorably.
JONATHAN MARTIN:
Because of the insult of what he says. It's not just what he says, it's how he looks and the presentation that is jarring Americans.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right, folks, we have to leave it there. This was fantastic. You don't need me here at all.
KELLY O'DONNELL:
So much more to talk about.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Thank you. That is all for today. Thank you for watching. Happy Hanukkah. We'll be back next week, because if it's Sunday, it's Meet the Press.