CHUCK TODD:
This Sunday: On the brink.
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
We have reason to believe the Russian forces are planning to -- intend to attack Ukraine in the coming week, in the coming days.
CHUCK TODD:
Russia giving every indication that it plans to invade Ukraine.
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
They have not moved any of their troops out. They've moved more troops in.
CHUCK TODD:
Shelling intensifies in eastern Ukraine, a possible pretext for a Russian invasion.
VICE PRES. KAMALA HARRIS:
We're talking about the potential for war in Europe.
CHUCK TODD
Ukraine's President Zelenskyy calling for sanctions now.
PRES. VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY:
You're telling me that it's 100 percent that the war will start in a couple of days? Then what are you waiting for?
CHUCK TODD:
We'll get updates on the crisis from Ukraine and Moscow. And I'll talk to Secretary of State Antony Blinken and to the former US ambassador to Ukraine, William Taylor. Plus, left behind.
ANN HSU:
Pay attention to education, first and only. No politics.
CHUCK TODD:
Three school board members in progressive San Francisco ousted in part for prioritizing politics over re-opening schools.
MAYOR LONDON BREED:
This came from parents who were upset and frustrated and stressed out.
CHUCK TODD:
How much could exhaustion from woke politics hurt Democrats in November? Also, face-off.
JEFF ZIENTS:
We're moving towards a time when Covid isn't a crisis, but it's something we can protect against and treat.
CHUCK TODD:
As cases plummet and more and more states rescind mask mandates... how attitudes are shifting to viewing Covid as a treatable risk. Joining me for insight and analysis are: Washington Post White House Bureau Chief Ashley Parker, Wall Street Journal columnist Peggy Noonan, Yamiche Alcindor, Moderator of Washington Week on PBS and NBC News Pentagon Correspondent Courtney Kube. Welcome to Sunday. It's Meet the Press.
ANNOUNCER:
From NBC News in Washington, the longest-running show in television history. This is Meet the Press with Chuck Todd.
CHUCK TODD:
Good Sunday morning. It certainly looks as if the chances of avoiding war in Ukraine are pretty remote. After the Russians claimed they were pulling troops back from Ukraine's border, it turned out that wasn't true. They were actually adding them. The U.S. says there are some 190,000 Russian forces and militias that are now in and around Ukraine. In eastern Ukraine, shelling has increased from Russian-backed separatists, who urged mass evacuations and issued its own call to arms, claiming Ukraine was about to attack. Russia carried out its own military exercises on all sides of Ukraine yesterday in a show of force, and President Biden says he believes Russia will invade in the coming days and believes Kyiv is in Putin's sights. In short, the lights are blinking red all over Europe right now. Recent U.S. disclosures of what Russia was planning have also largely been borne out. U.S. intelligence pretty good here. Among them, the idea of false flag attacks like the shelling of a kindergarten, which appeared to have been just that: the work of Russian-backed forces. Another, a prediction that Russia would create a video to justify an invasion. Well, they did, and that video aired on Russian TV Thursday night. Still, it's possible Putin has painted himself into a corner, as The Economist suggests, because he's inadvertently strengthened the resolve of both NATO and the Ukrainians. In a moment, I'm going to talk to the secretary of state, Antony Blinken. But, first, we're going to go to the front lines with reports from Ukraine and Moscow. We're going to begin with our chief foreign correspondent, Richard Engel. He is in embattled eastern Ukraine. And, Richard, simple question: Has the war already begun?
RICHARD ENGEL:
Well, it feels like it may be starting right now. Chuck, two weeks ago, I spoke to you from a trench not very far from here, and the situation was radically different. It was quiet. The separatists were quiet. The Ukrainian forces were not attacking. But now – and I'm about one mile from the separatist-held enclave in Ukraine – there are intense firefights here. There have been about 300 incoming rounds here fired from the separatists just in the last 24 hours. And now, since we've been here for the last several hours, the Ukrainians are also firing back at the separatists. And one commander I spoke to here said he does fear that these could be the opening shots of a wider war.
CHUCK TODD:
Richard, there was a clearly frustrated President Zelenskyy that met with the vice president in Munich over the last 24 hours, basically saying, "Well, if you're convinced Russia's doing this, what are you waiting for?" Is the Ukrainian government convinced Russia – it's inevitable now that Russia's going to invade?
RICHARD ENGEL:
Well, I think here when you talk to front line commanders they're pretty sure that it is coming. They see the separatists mobilizing in ways that they haven't seen them before. They are seeing them moving their artillery and weapons closer to front line attack positions. They hear them and see them maneuvering. So they think it is a matter of time before what are now skirmishes and incoming fire escalates into something much bigger.
CHUCK TODD:
And what would you say, Richard, is Zelenskyy's connection with Ukrainians right now? Are Ukrainians rallying around him?
RICHARD ENGEL:
They are. He was somewhat embattled before, and he'd been criticized in the early days of this crisis for ignoring it, downplaying it. But his speech in Munich, which received applause in the room, was also very well received here. People think that he's taking this in a sort of cool, calm, focused way. And people who were his opponents have been telling me that even they are begrudgingly starting to like his position. So, yes, as this becomes more imminent or potentially more imminent, people do seem to be rallying behind him and rallying behind their military.
CHUCK TODD:
He doesn't pull his punches, and he doesn't look like he's intimidated by anybody he meets with. Richard Engel on the front lines in eastern Ukraine. Richard, thank you. Let me go to Moscow now. That's where NBC News reporter Matthew Bodner is on duty. And, Matt, let me start with Zelenskyy's offer of meeting Putin anywhere Putin wants to meet. Obviously, diplomacy – he wants Ukraine to be caught asking for diplomacy before war. What's the Kremlin response?
MATTHEW BODNER:
Thank you, Chuck. Well, they have not really responded to this yet, and I don't think we should necessarily be holding our breath for them to take this offer because we've really heard this a lot recently. Zelenskyy has made overtures. Other nations have made overtures on behalf of Zelenskyy. And Russia's response was essentially always the same: "There's nothing to talk about. You just need to implement the Minsk II agreements." At best, they say, "You need to negotiate directly with the rebel regions of eastern Ukraine." Obviously, that is part of implementing the Minsk agreements. But while we are seeing this from the Russians, we have seen a really drastic rise in tensions here in Moscow. Of course, there's this other part of the story that has kind of been forgotten about a little bit as we're all looking at Donbass, but Belarus: a critical a part in all of this. Over the weekend, we saw massive strategic nuclear exercises that were being kind of, like, jointly run by the Belarussian president and Vladimir Putin. Obviously, Putin at the helm of that one. But just this morning, a very crucial development: The Belarussian defense ministry said that those Belarussian/Russian exercises that they have been insisting for weeks would end today will continue indefinitely, citing tensions in Ukraine, citing NATO. So we're seeing a very harsh increase in rhetoric here while kind of continued rejections of any overtures from the Ukrainians.
CHUCK TODD:
And, Matt, what are the Russian people seeing on media? Is this an inevitable drumbeat to war with Ukraine and that they have no choice because Ukraine is forcing Russia into this situation? Or is there any sort of hint at a potential off-ramp?
MATTHEW BODNER:
That's really the question now. So 48 hours ago, we saw basically the switch flipped on Russian state media. It has been wall-to-wall – and I cannot emphasize this enough – since that happened, since the announcement of evacuations from Donetsk. So if you turn into Russian TV right now, you open any of the state media websites, you are going to be barraged with claims of looming Ukrainian attacks on the Russian-speaking peoples of eastern Ukraine, claims of imminent, already-occurring Ukrainian provocation. And you have the Kremlin saying that right now the situation is essentially at a breaking point, that there can be irreparable consequences – this is the Kremlin press secretary saying this – for any provocations, any unintended action. So they are being prepared now, finally, for what we fear might happen. Chuck.
CHUCK TODD:
Matt Bodner on the ground for us in Moscow. Matt, thank you. And joining me now is the Secretary of State Antony Blinken. Secretary Blinken, welcome back to Meet the Press.
SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:
Thanks, Chuck.
CHUCK TODD:
Based on everything you had hinted at and U.S. intelligence has hinted at between yourself and the president, has the invasion already begun?
SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:
Well, it certainly looks like everything we said was likely to occur in the lead up to the actual invasion is happening. We're seeing false-flag operations taking place in Eastern Ukraine, the manufacturing of provocations and justifications for Russia to go in. We just heard this morning that "exercises," and I put that in quotation marks, that Russia was engaged in in Belarus with 30,000 Russian forces that were supposed to end, are now not ending because of the alleged tension in Eastern Ukraine, that of course is being created by Russia and its proxies there. So all of this seems to be following the script that I laid out at the United Nations Security Council and that President Biden talked about to the nation just the other day.
CHUCK TODD:
I want to get you to respond to President Zelenskyy in Munich over the last 24 hours. He's clearly frustrated, and he essentially said, "Well, if you're so sure the invasion is here, you're telling me that it's 100% that the war will start in a couple of days? Well then what are you waiting for?" He's referring to the harsh sanctions like – essentially, "If the war's begun, then let's go." Well?
SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:
You also heard – Chuck, you also heard the president say that, while the die may be cast, until it actually settles, until the tanks are rolling and the planes are in the air, that we're going to try everything we possibly can to get President Putin to reverse the decision we believe he's made, and to dissuade him. Part of that is the prospect of massive sanctions. And just in Munich a day ago where we were all gathered, the G7 countries, the leading democratic economies in the world, reiterated very forcefully the massive consequences that would befall Russia and President Putin with sanctions if the aggression actually goes forward. We continue to try to build everything we can to deter him from the course that he's now set on. And until the last minute, there is still an option to – for him to pull back. That's what we're trying to do. We're trying to prevent a war. As soon as you trigger the sanctions, of course, any deterrent effect they may have is gone. They get absorbed by President Putin and he, and he moves on.
CHUCK TODD:
Why do you think Putin appears to not be taking these threats seriously?
SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:
Well, you know, one of the challenges that we have, Chuck, I think, is that we all put our own frame of logic on what President Putin is doing that may not be the same frame that he has. And it's hard to put yourself in someone else's mind, but he has decades of built-up grievances. He has, I think, a conviction that Ukraine cannot in any way be Western-oriented, that it cannot be a successful democracy on his borders. And that fundamentally is what this is about. He wants to reconstitute, if not the Soviet empire, at least the sphere of influence. And if not that, at least to Finlandize his neighbors. So our logic is very different, because what we're seeing is President Putin precipitating everything he says he wants to prevent. He's alienated the Ukrainian people from Russia. He's actually caused NATO to bolster itself and will continue to do that, especially if the aggression actually goes forward. And NATO is now closer to Russia than it was. And so in terms of what would appear to us logically to be his interests, he’s – everything he's doing runs counter to them. In his own logic, there may be a rationale.
CHUCK TODD:
So he goes through with this invasion, and he goes to Kyiv, as President Biden seem to indicate, that this isn't going to be just a, alimited thing -- that he's going all into Kyiv -- then is President Zelenskyy right when he said yesterday in Munich that the security architecture of our world is obsolete?
SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:
The architecture is not, is not obsolete, on the contrary. What we're seeing is it's actually being reinforced again, largely because of what President Putin is doing, I just came back from from Munich. I was with all our allies and partners along with the vice president, and what the vice president said very forcefully in Munich, and what I've heard in private from all of our partners, is that NATO now is -- has more cohesion, more solidarity that it's had at any time in recent memory. Leading officials from Europe said that, said that publicly. The vice president certainly heard that in her meetings and in the response to her speech. So, I think we're seeing NATO solidified, unified by the actions that President Putin has taken. Now, having said that, this aggression from Russia against Ukraine is a direct challenge to the basic principles that have undergirded our security and our peace for, for decades -- the notion that one country doesn't simply go in and change the borders of another by force, that it doesn't try to subjugate another country to its will to force its decisions on another country, including with whom that country may associate. So that's exactly why we are all standing up and standing firmly against what Russia is doing, coming together, not only in support of Ukraine, but also to bolster NATO and to make it clear that there will be massive consequences for Russia if it continues down this course.
CHUCK TODD:
Look, President Zelenskyy also brought up the fact that, you know, that this isn't vague promises that the West made to Ukraine, that Ukraine gave up its nuclear weapons. And one of the reasons it – one of the prompt reassurances it got was essentially of protection from the West, from Europe, from the United States. What do we owe Ukraine if Russia invades?
SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:
Well first, Chuck, over the last year, we provided more than $1 billion in assistance to Ukraine. In 2021, $650 million in security assistance, defensive lethal assistance. That's more in that year than in any previous year, along with humanitarian and economic assistance. Just the other day, we announced a billion dollar loan guarantee for Ukraine. We've been rallying other countries to do the same thing, to support it economically, militarily, diplomatically. And if this aggression goes forward, that will continue. Support for Ukraine across the board diplomatically, militarily, economically will not only continue, it will deepen. As the president said, "We'll double down on that."
CHUCK TODD:
Any Americans that – in Ukraine right now, will the United States government do whatever it takes to get them out if war begins?
SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:
Chuck, we've been very clear for many, many weeks that in the event of a Russian invasion of Ukraine, we will not be in a position to evacuate any remaining Americans from Ukraine. I've said that repeatedly. We've been in direct contact with every American we can possibly be in contact with. Someone who’s a resident – typically, this is someone who's a long-term resident of Ukraine who happens to have an American passport. We've communicated that directly to Congress. We've urged them to communicate that to any Americans and groups that they're in contact with. We've been repeatedly clear about this. And we've seen people leave in recent weeks. But we are not going to be in position. Our embassy is now shuttered in Kyiv. We've moved it to Lviv toward – near the Polish border. We're going to do everything we can to guide Americans who want to leave, to help them get out by telling them the best way to do that, to support them as, as best we can, to have consular services available for them, for example, along the border with Poland. But in terms of an evacuation, that's not going to happen. And by the way, that almost never happens. Every time in places around the world where, for one reason or another, we've had to shut down an embassy, Americans have remained.
CHUCK TODD:
So the president – President Biden indicated that Americans probably should be prepared for perhaps higher gas prices for a short period of time if these sanctions go through. What about the issue of cyber attacks? How concerned are you that the Russians are going to attack us in cyber, if you will, to try to dissuade us from helping the Ukrainians?
SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:
It's certainly part of their playbook. And we've been engaged for many months now, first of all in helping Ukraine itself bolster its cyber defenses, and of course very much focused on doing the same for ourselves in anticipation of the possibility that Russia would engage in cyber attacks in response to us standing up to their, to their aggression. This is a very, very dangerous game. We're, as I said, strengthening our own defenses. When President Biden was with President Putin in Geneva a few months ago, this was at the time of ransomware attacks, including the Colonial Pipeline. And the president was conveying to President Putin how seriously we take this and the need for Russia to do something about it because those engaged in the attacks were doing it from Russian soil. And he noted to President Putin that if he were in President Putin's shoes, with his large oil and gas infrastructure, he knows how difficult it would be for President Putin if something were to happen to that infrastructure.
CHUCK TODD:
Let me ask this question: In your assessment, why did Putin – why is he escalating with Ukraine now? Why didn't he do this under the previous administration, who wasn't as supportive of NATO? If you just look at it observationally, if he really wanted Ukraine and he didn't want the United States getting in the way, he perhaps had a – more of a friendlier administration in the previous one. Why do you think he didn't act then?
SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:
I hope you get a chance to ask him. But look, here's what I can say. I think, and I really don't want to put myself in his mind because that's very hard to do, but I think it's reasonable to think that, as President Putin sees it, Ukraine was slipping further and further away from his grasp over time – increasingly Western-oriented, desirous of a future with Europe. And as that was continuing year after year – by the way, largely again, as a result of his actions in alienating Ukrainians by seizing Crimea and invading via separatists the Donbass – as that was happening, it no doubt got to a point where he thought if he didn't do something to change the dynamic, it was just going to happen.
CHUCK TODD:
It feels like that your meeting with Sergei Lavrov this week, if it happens, it means no war. If it doesn't happen, it means war's begun. Is that the fair way to look at that meeting?
SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:
That's a, that’s a pretty good summary, Chuck, yes. Look, we're doing everything we can. And it's my responsibility to do everything I can to try, diplomatically, to prevent a war. And so I will leave no stone unturned to do that. I reached out to Foreign Minister Lavrov some days ago, suggested we meet this coming week in Europe to see if we can pursue conversations that would allow us to prevent a war and address the security concerns that we all have – the United States, Europe and Russia – in that conversation. He came back and said, "Yeah, let's meet." And we responded and said, "The meeting's on provided you don't invade Ukraine in the meantime."
CHUCK TODD:
So right now, that meeting's on.
SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:
Right now, that meeting's on.
CHUCK TODD:
Okay.
SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:
Stay tuned over the next few days.
CHUCK TODD:
Secretary of State Antony Blinken, appreciate you coming on and sharing your perspective with us.
SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:
Thanks, Chuck.
CHUCK TODD:
When we come back, I'll discuss the crisis in the Ukraine with the former U.S. ambassador to Ukraine Bill Taylor, and with our panel. Stay with us.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. Panel is here, Yamiche Alcindor, moderator of Washington Week on PBS, NBC News Pentagon correspondent Courtney Kube, Washington Post White House Bureau Chief Ashley Parker, Wall Street Journal columnist Peggy Noonan and we're also joined by Willian Taylor, he's the former U.S. ambassador to Ukraine. And so Ambassador, I want to start with you. You have a lot of insight into the Ukrainian government. Zelenskyy, this is one fired-up leader of his country, frustrated. And he seems to be as frustrated with the West as he is with anybody right now.
WILLIAM TAYLOR:
No, Chuck. He's clearly frustrated with Putin. He's got allies. He was there addressing those allies in Munich yesterday, exactly what you say. He's got complaints about more support, you know, he would like to have. But the real villain in the case, let's be clear, is sitting in the Kremlin.
CHUCK TODD:
When you hear about this, anything to do to stop war, is there anything reasonable to discuss between Ukraine and Russia at this point?
WILLIAM TAYLOR:
Probably not between Ukraine and Russia. There's reasonable discussions to be had between Russia and the United States. The Russians are after things that Ukraine can't really deliver. The Russians are after a rollback. The Russians don't want NATO to accept –
CHUCK TODD:
Ukraine's just a pawn, right?
WILLIAM TAYLOR:
Ukraine has a gun to its head, while the Russians are negotiating with the Americans and NATO and others. And so yes, they are a pawn in this.
CHUCK TODD:
Courtney, I think what we're all wondering is what's next. We know how we're going to respond to sanctions - to a Russian invasion. We know all that. What's next for the American response after that?
COURTNEY KUBE:
From a military perspective, there really is no response. I mean right now, the Biden administration has made a very concerted decision that there will not be any kind of U.S. military response. And people keep coming to me and saying, "Well, what if Americans are killed? What if Americans need help getting out of the country?" I think people are going to be pretty surprised. There's a lot of comparisons back to Afghanistan. But this is not --
CHUCK TODD:
Secretary Blinken said it, "Hey, we're not getting you."
COURTNEY KUBE:
Yes, there has been a real effort on the part of the American – the Biden administration to tell Americans, "If you are there, get out." The idea that the U.S. military will be in Ukraine fighting Russia is just not happening, unless Vladimir Putin decides to branch this out and to go into Poland or anything. But there's no intelligence that suggests he's made that decision.
ASHLEY PARKER:
And just following up on that, I think Afghanistan looms so large there. And in talking to people in the administration, they say that getting Americans out is so top of President Biden's mind. He mentioned it in that Super Bowl interview. He mentioned it when he had the press conference with the German chancellor. He mentioned it in his speech last Tuesday. Not that Americans are going to evacuate, not that the U.S. is going to evacuate Americans there. But that's why you see them saying, "You need to get out now. You need to get out when commercial flights are still available." They came up with a plan where there'll be U.S. troops on the border with Poland. Well, that can be an eight- or nine-hour trip across land. And they do not want another situation like Afghanistan, where you see those images that really hurt them with the American public.
CHUCK TODD:
What kind of American resolve is there going to be, Yamiche?
YAMICHE ALCINDOR:
American resolve? I mean I think –
CHUCK TODD:
We're watching this happen, you know? And we're with the Ukrainians now. How long are we going to be watching?
YAMICHE ALCINDOR:
I mean, that is the big question politically. It's also why we see, as Ashley and Courtney said, Afghanistan looming so large, because we did see President Biden's poll numbers tank after the Afghanistan withdrawal, which he defended and continues to defend. But they did not go back up. What I hear when I talk to White House officials is this real feeling that President Biden is sharing as much intelligence as possible. A key element of the West's strategy here is to warn people internationally about what Russia's doing. But also the thing that you hear President Biden saying is, "Americans need to be prepared if this comes to our shores, and if it comes to our shores in the effect of higher gas prices." Well, we already are seeing an eight-year high. We're already seeing inflation at 40-year highs. So the president is also trying to tell Americans, "If we have to get involved here, the cost of freedom may be in your wallets at the gas tank."
CHUCK TODD:
You know, and Peggy, I think this is the president's challenge. I think – I'm impressed by the lack of partisan bickering there's been about how he's handled this, right?
PEGGY NOONAN:
Yeah, I think that's true.
CHUCK TODD:
So you could see that there is agreement that he is doing everything he should be doing right now. The question is if this strategy doesn't work, is the key to bar the door?
PEGGY NOONAN:
Well, we'll find out. Maybe find out pretty soon in the next few days or week or so. It does seem to me in general that the West, as it used to be called, or perhaps the administration, I don't know enough to say it's the White House, but somehow the West is kind of playing a not so great hand about as well as they can play it, you know? NATO has stayed together. There's bickering, there's differences, there's 20 members. But they're kind of being unified. Zelenskyy's been a strong guy, sort of seeming a little detached from the U.S., being a little critical but being majorly, "Wow, please don't invade us, that would be a bad idea." It seems to me it's also the U.S. tactic of showing its intelligence and telling everybody, "this is what we're seeing, 190,000 troops now. This is where they're moving." That's been smart. It's alerted the world, but it's focused the world. So I think next week I may regret this, but so far I think they're playing their hand pretty well.
CHUCK TODD:
You know, Bill, I think the thing that seems to be rattling a lot of people is the unknown is Putin himself. And I want to put a piece of this New York Times analysis up. In Moscow, many analysts remain convinced that the Russian president is essentially rational. But, some also leave the door open to the idea that he has fundamentally changed amid the pandemic, a shift that may have left him more paranoid, more aggrieved, and more reckless. You know, because you and I were discussing earlier, this seems irrational if he does this. But what if he's not rational?
WILLIAM TAYLOR:
He may not be rational. He's looking for an excuse. You're right, Chuck, he doesn't have a story to tell the Russian people. He doesn't have a story to tell the international community. He has no rational reason to invade Ukraine. The fact is, he has told his people that Ukrainians are kind of really Russians. And so he's got a story to tell and he can't find one. He's trying to provoke one, so far without luck. However, he has also said many times, and his staff has said, Lavrov has said, "We’re not really trying to -- we have no plans to invade Ukraine." He can back off that way. He can say, "We never intended in the first place." And he can say, "It's really a success because the Americans have finally agreed to address my concerns."
CHUCK TODD:
Right.
YAMICHE ALCINDOR:
And even if he does back off, there is also this destabilization that we've already seen in Ukraine. I was looking at Richard Engel's live shot and thinking the people of Ukraine probably don't want to even look at that, because President Zelenskyy is saying, "The more we talk about war, the more we talk about the imminent threat, the harder it gets for the Ukrainian economy, the harder it gets for people in Ukraine to remain calm." That is the tension between Ukraine and the West here, which is that they are trying as best as possible to share as much information. And the president of Ukraine is essentially saying, "This is destabilizing my country. And even if there isn't an invasion, there's always been damage done to my country."
WILLIAM TAYLOR:
But you have to remember one thing, sorry, is who's destabilizing the country? It's not the United States that's destabilizing the Ukraine.
YAMICHE ALCINDOR:
Certainly.
WILLIAM TAYLOR:
It's the Russians. Let's be clear.
YAMICHE ALCINDOR:
Certainly.
WILLIAM TAYLOR:
It's President Putin.
CHUCK TODD:
We're just telling them the story.
WILLIAM TAYLOR:
We're telling the story.
COURTNEY KUBE:
I think it's so fascinating that people say that Vladimir Putin is not rational. In July he wrote this long op ed where he laid this out, what he wants to do. So, I mean, there's this notion that he's been telegraphing this for months. And you could make the argument he's been telegraphing it for years.
CHUCK TODD:
I was just going to say, you could go back to '06. Right.
COURTNEY KUBE:
Yeah, I mean, this is his -- one of his primary national security objectives and long-term strategic objectives is to take Ukraine and then to keep moving to Kaliningrad, Belarus, Moldova. Some of the places that we, in some ways, were already looking at as almost Russian territories, right? So this is something he's been working on. This is a legacy event for him if he decides to do this invasion. And it's something that, it will continue his goal of overturning this global order.
CHUCK TODD:
Bill, address the question that I said to the secretary about what's the assessment of why Putin didn't do this while Trump was in office.
WILLIAM TAYLOR:
You know, I think the question of why now is a very good one. He may think that he's running out of time. Maybe he thought he had more time when President Trump was in office. But he's running out of time. The secretary made this point, that is Ukraine's moving inevitably, inexorably to Europe, away from Russia because of all his actions, among other things. So I think he's running out of time in that way. Also, this is probably the peak strength of his military. His economy is not in good shape, and it's going to go down from here.
PEGGY NOONAN:
Can I say one last thing?
CHUCK TODD:
One last thing, yeah.
PEGGY NOONAN:
Just very quickly, I think people, especially Americans, are wondering if Putin moves on Ukraine, if he goes as far west as Kyiv, what does that look like? What is that? What does that mean?
CHUCK TODD:
How bloody.
PEGGY NOONAN:
Does he stay? How bloody, but also literally what does it look like. And is it formal troops and tanks? Is it little green men, whatever? Second question, of course, spillover. What does that mean beyond where it's taking place?
CHUCK TODD:
And that's what a lot of Eastern European NATO allies would like to know the answer to that question. Ambassador Taylor, thanks for joining us. It was great to have you.
WILLIAM TAYLOR:
Thank you, great to be here.
CHUCK TODD:
And I think I speak for the panel, it was good to have you. When we come back, did we just see progressive parents in San Francisco say they've had it with woke politics? Or is it a bit more involved than that? I'm going to talk to the Mayor of San Francisco, London Breed, after the break.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. It's tempting to begin this next story with the phrase "Even in San Francisco," as in "Even in San Francisco voters are getting tired of woke progressive politics." But that's what happened, sort of. Voters overwhelmingly ousted three school board members over efforts to rename schools honoring people like Abraham Lincoln and George Washington and to replace a merit-based admissions policy to a prestigious high school with a simple lottery. But also at issue was competence, and the wisdom of focusing on those goals instead of focusing on re-opening schools during Covid. It's the kind of story that has conservatives smirking and Democrats nationally worrying over voters' impatience with progressive politics, even in San Francisco. Joining me now is San Francisco's mayor, London Breed. Mayor Breed, welcome to Meet the Press.
MAYOR LONDON BREED:
Thank you.
CHUCK TODD:
Let me start with everybody has an opinion about what happened, but I want to ask yours. But I want to put up the San Francisco Chronicle on Wednesday said, "It was a plea for basic competence." Newsweek said, "It's a wake-up call for progressives." The New York Times said, "An awakening in the Chinese-American community." I could take a step further. Joe Garofoli sort of downplayed it and said this: "Tuesday's overwhelming recall of three school board members isn't a sign that San Francisco is marching lockstep with the conservative trend of parents taking back their schools. It was about one school board race in one city in an off-year election in mid-February." So there's all these array of takes, Mayor Breed. What's yours?
MAYOR LONDON BREED:
Well, my take is that it was really about the frustration of the board of education doing their fundamental job. And that is to make sure that our children are getting educated, that they get back into the classroom. And that did not occur. They were focusing on other things that were clearly a distraction. Not to say that those other things around renaming schools and conversations around changes to our school district weren't important, but what was most important is the fact that our kids were not in the classroom. And San Francisco, our Department of Public Health, we've been a leader during this Covid pandemic. And, in some cases, we have put forth the most conservative policies to ensure the safety of all San Franciscans. And our vaccination rates, and our death rates, and other numbers demonstrate that we are a clear leader. But we failed our children. Parents were upset. The city as a whole was upset, and the decision to recall school board members was a result of that.
CHUCK TODD:
Now, there's been some speculation that the only reason three were recalled is three were eligible. And that had more been eligible, perhaps more would've been recalled. You're going to be appointing the replacements. That power is in your hands. What kind of person are you looking for? What should their priority be? And what message should the other school board members take away from this recall success?
MAYOR LONDON BREED:
Well, I've been talking to parents for the past couple weeks. And what they want is someone who is going to focus on the basic fundamental responsibility of members of the school board. And that is making sure that children get the education that they need in our schools, dealing with the challenges of learning loss, dealing with the mental health challenges that exist. We have a significant budget deficit. We need to hire a new superintendent. So I'm going to be looking for people that are going to focus on the priorities of the school district and not on politics, and not on what it means to run for office, and stepping stones, and so on and so forth. We need people who want to be on the school board to make a difference, and who meet those qualifications to do the job.
CHUCK TODD:
One of the ousted members said this: "White supremacists are enjoying this, and the support of the recall is aligned with this." Is that the right kind of reaction to what happened?
MAYOR LONDON BREED:
Well, of course it's not the right kind of reaction. And the fact that we're still even listening to any of the recalled school board members is definitely a problem. Again, we should be focused on the parents. We should be focused on the school district and the challenges that these kids have faced. And that's the biggest problem. This person is making it about them when it really should be about our kids who have suffered, not just in San Francisco, but all over this country as a result of this pandemic. And let's be clear, in San Francisco for some time now, our private schools were open even when our public schools couldn't get it together. So we have a lot of work to do. And the focus needs to be brought back to our children. And that's my goal in appointing some additional school board members to do just that.
CHUCK TODD:
Look, there’s been a lot of – some people want to say this is about, you brought up, the focus and priority is about keeping schools open. A lot of national people have made note that they wanted to rename schools. How much of this was about renaming the schools of George Washington, and Abraham Lincoln, and Dianne Feinstein, how much of it, though, was also parents upset that the rules were changed at how you got into some specific magnet schools?
MAYOR LONDON BREED:
Well, I think it was probably both. But at the end of the day, our kids were not in school. And they should've been. And kids were home suffering. The stories that I heard about children who went from being these bubbly, exciting kids to not even smiling, to being depressed, the increase in the number of suicide attempts and other things that exist, that is the fundamental problem here. And I think that we have to get back to that. And yes, of course there were people who were probably upset about some of the proposed changes. But those are discussions that are important to have, but not at the expense of making sure that the priority of what the school district is there to do is met.
CHUCK TODD:
Any advice for Democrats around the country in urban settings that are dealing this – dealing with upset parents right now? What lessons would you say should apply?
MAYOR LONDON BREED:
Well, this is not a Democratic/Republican issue. This is an issue about the education of our children. And I think that ultimately, it's important that anyone who serves in any capacity, whether it's school board, or Congress, or as mayor, it is important to respond to what your priority is as a mayor or as a school board member. And that is the role that you were put in the office to do. And so in this particular case, the board neglected their primary responsibility to focus on other things. Other things that are important, but not as significant as what they were there to do. And that is to educate children.
CHUCK TODD:
I want to bring up another issue that you were pretty exercised about, and it was the rise in crime in San Francisco. I am going to play some remarks you said a couple of months ago that really struck me. Here it is.
[BEGIN TAPE]
MAYOR LONDON BREED:
It comes to an end when we take the steps to be more aggressive with law enforcement, more aggressive with the changes in our policies, and less tolerant of all the bulls*** that has destroyed our city.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
Obviously, it was some of those – we've seen the footage of some of these sort of group shoplifting, robberies, things like this and even worse. And you wanted to get a bit tougher. You've got a district attorney in Chesa Boudin who you did not support. You supported an opponent. There's a recall of Mr. Boudin. You've not said where you are on this. Are you prepared to do that now?
MAYOR LONDON BREED:
Well, I am doing everything I can as mayor to keep people in San Francisco safe. And part of that means I have to have a good working relationship with our district attorney. At the end of the day, that is our primary responsibility. And I am doing everything I can to focus on that. Ultimately, there has been a lot of negative attention paid to San Francisco about some of those videos that have gone viral. But what doesn't get talked about is the work that our police department has done to make the arrests, to try and hold people accountable. So we're going to continue to do that. And part of what I have to do is everything I can to work with the district attorney, regardless of what's happening as it relates to a recall.
CHUCK TODD:
Well, one could argue you have to work with the school board. You were willing to come out publicly about the school board recalls. You feel like your relationship's too close to Mr. Boudin in this instance?
MAYOR LONDON BREED:
Well, it's a little bit different with the school board. I didn't necessarily have to work with all the school board members. There were several members on the board that I did have a good working relationship with. And I have a good working relationship with the superintendent. So I would say that it's different. I haven't made a decision one way or another about the recall. I'm still debating on whether or not I will. But ultimately what I want to be able to do is make sure that the decision I make is not an impediment to my ability to work with the district attorney in keeping San Franciscans safe.
CHUCK TODD:
Do you expect there to be some crossover between the frustrations that voters showed with school board members and perhaps the frustrations they could be showing in this recall with the district attorney?
MAYOR LONDON BREED:
I think that, you know, when we look at what's happening in San Francisco and the concerns around crime, people are definitely frustrated about accountability. Because again, the police are making the arrests in many of these cases. And what we want are people to be held accountable. I grew up in San Francisco. I grew up in public housing. I grew up in a very challenging environment. And it's not that people don't want police. We can have police reform and also ensure safety with making sure that police are present when a crime is committed. And the district attorney's responsibility is to make sure that when the evidence is presented, that those people are held accountable.
CHUCK TODD:
Mayor London Breed, the Mayor of San Francisco, really appreciate you coming on and sharing your perspective with us. Thank you.
MAYOR LONDON BREED:
Thank you.
CHUCK TODD:
When we come back, how the sharp drop in Covid cases is changing the country's attitude on how to treat a once-out-of-control pandemic. Stick with us.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back, Data Download time. What a difference a month can make when it comes to Covid. As indicators start to trend downward, the nation feels like it's turning a corner on the virus, least in terms of Americans' attitudes to it. And there may be political ramifications to all of these changes. First, let's just look at the numbers here as you can see. Look, the case counts have just dropped dramatically. Look, 134,000, as you can see here, still puts it closer to our previous highs than our previous lows, but come on. When you see where we came from, we are dropping and dropping fast. When you look at deaths, this is obviously more of a lagging indicator, you can see still an uncomfortably high number: 2,000 a day. But this is starting to now drop pretty quickly here, so we should start to see these numbers continue to come down. And all of this is making the public feel a bit more comfortable with the risks of Covid. Look at this. Just from January to February, fears of severe health risk here, 34% of all adults in January. Now, down to basically one in five adults. And you're seeing that, yes, there are some differences along party, but it's starting to start to even out. As you can see these drops here, the differences not as wide as they once were. So as you can see here, this is a country that is starting to get comfortable living with Covid. And you’re starting to see, look at the states that are left. As of February 1st, these were the only states that still had statewide mask mandates. And every one of these states here, all of them but one, have announced the end of their statewide mask mandate by at least the end of March. The only one that plans to keep it in place indefinitely: the island state of Hawaii. When we come back, was that ouster of three San Francisco school board members a flashing warning sign for progressives and Democrats? Stay with us.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. Let's dig in a little bit more on domestic politics. Peggy, you wrote about the San Francisco recalls this week. And I found the mayor's interview quite interesting. This feels like – she felt like somebody that said, "Hey, I was elected to do a job: be mayor."
PEGGY NOONAN:
Yeah. Totally. Totally. She had, London Breed had sued the school board to get the schools open. It seemed to me she did everything she could. I think the whole school board recall thing was about essentially—reducing it down—the school board was not opening the schools. They seemed to have a muted interest in what parents thought was the essential question, "Will you open the schools?" They devoted themselves and their attentions instead to issues that seemed extraneous, that I think they thought were very progressive. But they just lost their jobs because progressives voted them out of there. So I think it was a signal moment in San Francisco after – I mean, the votes were 70% against these reigning Democratic school board members who previously had been considered noncontroversial. We saw what happened in Virginia. We've seen other school board crises. I do think this is part of A, a general, parental revolt sparked by the pandemic in the past two and a half years. And I also think it is part of a little cultural war – not little, but it's going on within the Democratic Party.
CHUCK TODD:
And, Yamiche, how much, I mean – this feels like a not-plowing-the-snow-during-a-snowstorm type of result, right?
PEGGY NOONAN:
Right, yeah
CHUCK TODD:
Like, at the end of the day, that’s why – you know, this isn't about politics. But there does seem to be some wedge here between progressives and the pragmatists on the Democratic side.
YAMICHE ALCINDOR:
Yeah. I mean, I think that there is this central issue of parents having lived through the pandemic, having also seen what their children are learning, really having a front row seat to the challenges of all of that, rebelling against sort of what school boards are focused on. I do think "a small cultural war" is not the way that I would describe what's going on in our country. I would say that this is a huge cultural war. I would also say --
PEGGY NOONAN:
No, in the Democratic Party though. It's just beginning in the Democratic Party, I think.
YAMICHE ALCINDOR:
I think even in the Democratic Party. I was looking at some numbers, a Gallup poll looking at sort of Martin Luther King’s favorability. We're in Black History Month. Looking at the fact that the majority of the country did not support his work, that he was an unfavorable figure. And I think anti-racism work in America has been unpopular historically. That, of course, gets complicated if what you said, you're not plowing the snow during a snowstorm. So that is adding to this. But I think there is a real issue in this country of whether or not when we look at historical figures, when we look at slavery and its consequences, whether people feel comfortable still talking about that. There was this inflection point after the murder of George Floyd, and I think there has been a big backlash --
CHUCK TODD:
A retreat.
YAMICHE ALCINDOR:
– to that.
CHUCK TODD:
Bit of a retreat--
ASHLEY PARKER:
And to the not-plowing-the-snow point, I do think it is that. It is its own version of a pocketbook issue. If you are a parent and schools are closed, you're deeply aware of that because you may see your middle schooler struggling with mental health issues. You may see your first grader sitting next to you when you're trying to work and you're having to help them with remote Zoom. So you feel it deeply and intimately, and this is one frustration also for the Biden White House, which is they feel like — and they are — they're getting blamed for what's happening with the schools. And their argument is, "We came in, and schools were shut down. We didn't shut down the schools. That happened before us. We've actually opened a majority of the schools. And why are we still getting blamed?" But the fact remains that they are.
CHUCK TODD:
Yeah. Well, it's because it’s the cities – the Democrats are perceived to be the ones running the cities.
COURTNEY KUBE:
This is about as local an election issue as you can get. But the reality is if you're the Biden administration, you've got to be looking at it and saying, "Okay, is this a bellwether of change here right now?" Is this something – and this week, you know, may even be the perfect example of that. Here we've got this potentially unifying moment – what they were hoping would be a unifying moment, the Biden administration – of an announcement of a Supreme Court justice. Well, what's also likely to happen this week? An invasion of Ukraine. So he can’t – the Biden administration cannot seem to get their – even when they're trying to unify the party – they can't even seem to have a win.
CHUCK TODD:
No, that's going to be rough there. But this is one of those where I do think we're seeing politicians – the smart thing to do – go meet voters where they're at rather than trying to predict where they're going to be.
PEGGY NOONAN:
Know their concerns.
CHUCK TODD:
Yeah, absolutely. That's all we have for today. Thank you for watching. I hope you enjoyed the Olympics. We'll be back next week because if it's Sunday, it's Meet the Press.