KRISTEN WELKER:
This Sunday: pressing pause. As Israel pushes deeper into Gaza, the U.S. applies more pressure to pause the fighting and get more aid into Gaza.
SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:
Far too many Palestinians have been killed. Far too many have suffered.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Is enough being done to protect civilian lives? I’ll speak to the Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. Plus: 2024 strategy. Polls show President Biden is struggling even as Democrats win big on Election Day.
LAUREN BLAUVELT:
Abortion access is the law of the land in Ohio.
KRISTEN WELKER:
While Senator Joe Manchin says he won’t run for re-election hurting Democrats chances of holding the Senate and potentially challenging President Biden. Will Democrats still be able to motivate voters with Biden on the ticket? I'll talk to Democratic Senator Chris Murphy of Connecticut. And: clashing candidates. Donald Trump’s Republican rivals battle on the debate stage.
GOV. RON DeSANTIS:
I'm sick of Republicans losing.
FMR. GOV. NIKKI HALEY:
Let's find consensus.
KRISTEN WELKER:
As the former president plots revenge.
FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
If I happen to be president and I see somebody who’s doing well and beating me very badly, I say, “Go down and indict them.”
KRISTEN WELKER:
Can any candidate catch up to Trump? I’ll speak with the chair of the Republican Party, Ronna McDaniel. Joining me for insight and analysis are: NBC News Washington Managing Editor Carol Lee, former Homeland Security Secretary Jeh Johnson, and Marc Short, former chief of staff to Vice President Mike Pence. Welcome to Sunday, it’s Meet the Press.
ANNOUNCER:
From NBC News in Washington, the longest-running show in television history, this is Meet the Press with Kristen Welker.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Good Sunday morning. Israeli strikes are pounding Gaza City, as ground forces close in on Gaza's largest medical complex, Al-Shifa hospital, which Israel says sits on top of Hamas' main command center, claims Hamas and Al-Shifa staff deny. Thousands of civilians have been sheltering in the Shifa compound in recent weeks, but many fled Friday after nearby strikes. Still, doctors say it is impossible for everyone to get out, trapped with no electricity or fuel to run generators. Pressure is growing on Israel which has agreed to short daily pauses in some areas of northern Gaza. On Thursday, President Biden said pauses should have come sooner.
[START TAPE]
REPORTER:
Did you ask for a three-day pause to Netanyahu?
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
You know, I've been asking for a pause for a lot more than three days. Umm -- Yes.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
In the strongest U.S. comments to date, Secretary of State Antony Blinken said on Friday that “far too many Palestinians have been killed." In Tel Aviv, thousands of protesters gathered on Saturday night, expressing frustration with the government's response to more than 200 hostages that Hamas and other militant groups captured on October 7th. More than 300,000 people marched in London, denouncing the rising civilian death toll in Gaza. But the U.S. has stopped short of calling for a ceasefire, something French President Emmanuel Macron pushed for on Friday, while recognizing Israel's right to defend itself.
[START TAPE]
EMMANUEL MACRON:
I think this is the only solution we have, this ceasefire. Because it's impossible to explain we want to fight against terrorism by killing innocent people. De facto, today civilians are bombed. De facto, there's babies, there's ladies, there’s old people are bombed and killed. There is no reason for that and no legitimacy so we do urge Israel to stop.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
Joining me now is Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. Mr. Prime Minister, welcome back to Meet the Press.
BENJAMIN NETANYAHU:
Thank you. Good to be with you.
KRISTEN WELKER:
We really appreciate your being here. This is our first chance to talk to you since the horrific attack by Hamas against Israel on October 7th. Of course, now the ground offensive to eradicate Hamas is underway. Mr. Prime Minister, can you tell us, how will you know when you have achieved your objective, and how close are you to that goal?
BENJAMIN NETANYAHU:
We've set a specific target. That is to destroy Hamas's military capabilities and to destroy its governance capabilities over the 2 million people that it holds hostage in Gaza. That is something that we are achieving step by step, and I assure you we'll complete the task.
If you want peace, destroy Hamas. If you want security, destroy Hamas. If you want a future for Israel, the Palestinians, the Middle East, destroy Hamas. We're absolutely intent on achieving it and what I can tell you, Kristen, is given the extraordinary performance of the Israeli Army in the last few days, the last few weeks, we're going to achieve it. We'll do it with as few civilian casualties as we can, and with maximum casualties on the Hamas terrorists, which we're achieving day by day, hour by hour. We will complete the task. Victory.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Do you think it will take months? Will it take years? What should people be expecting?
BENJAMIN NETANYAHU:
I don't think it's going to take the time that it took the United States and the International Coalition to defeat ISIS or to defeat Al Qaeda. It took you many years. I don't think it's going to be many years. But I've set targets and not a deadline. And we're proceeding as quickly as we can, but also as carefully as we can. Because we want to minimize civilian casualties, and we want to minimize casualties on our side, while maximizing the casualties of the Hamas terrorists. And we're actually achieving both. I would say the ground offensive that we began is actually reducing the amount of civilian casualties because the population, the civilian population in Gaza is heeding our call to vacate the territories, the zone of fighting, get out of harm's way, even though Hamas is trying to keep them in harm's way. We're succeeding in that. So the level of civilian casualties is coming down, importantly, and our military successes are coming up. That's important as well.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Let's talk about what's happening at Al-Shifa Hospital. There are reports that there's been a loss of power, which has caused the death of patients and even some infants. And I know that Israel has said Hamas is headquartered there. Even if that is the case, does that justify jeopardizing the lives of sick people and babies, Mr. Prime Minister?
BENJAMIN NETANYAHU:
On the contrary, we offered, actually, last night to give them enough fuel to operate the hospital, operate the incubators and so on, because we have obviously no battle with patients or with civilians at all. And I think every civilian death, every dead baby is a tragedy. But that tragedy should be placed squarely at the responsibility of Hamas that is keeping its military installations inside hospitals, its command posts inside hospitals, inside schools, inside UNRWA, UN facilities, and so on. So we obviously don't want to give them immunity, but at the same time, we're sensitive to this issue. So we offered this help. They refused it. I've offered something else. I've said let's build field hospitals. I asked the Emirates. I asked the French president to send a floating hospital ship. We've asked other countries too, the UNRWA and so on, "Build field hospitals. Let's move the patients out of these Hamas command posts in the hospitals to these safe places." So far they've moved a few patients. Not enough. I hope more will move. We're trying to deal with this as carefully as we can while not giving sanctuary to Hamas.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Let's talk about the hostages. There are reports that there is a possible deal that would involve getting out women and children and the elderly. How close are you to reaching a deal to get more of the hostages out?
BENJAMIN NETANYAHU:
Well, Kristen, I can say that we weren't close at all until we started the ground operation. In fact, we heard that there's an impending deal of this kind or that kind and then we learned that it was all "hoka." It was nothing. But the minute we started the ground operation, things began to change.
KRISTEN WELKER:
So is there a potential deal?
BENJAMIN NETANYAHU:
And the pressure –
KRISTEN WELKER:
Mr. Prime Minister, is there a potential deal?
BENJAMIN NETANYAHU:
There could be, but I think the less I say about it the more I'll increase the chances that it materializes. And it's a result of pressure, military pressure, the extraordinary work that the IDF is doing. Putting pressure on the Hamas leadership. That's the one thing that might create a deal and if a deal is available, well, we'll talk about it when it's there. We'll announce it if it's achieved.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Do you know where all of the hostages are being held right now, Mr. Prime Minister?
BENJAMIN NETANYAHU:
We know a great deal. But I won't go beyond that.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Okay. There are a lot of mixed messages, as you know, coming out about what has been agreed to as it relates to humanitarian pauses. Can you be very clear for our audience, what has Israel agreed to in terms of daily humanitarian pauses? Have you agreed to four-hour daily pauses?
BENJAMIN NETANYAHU:
Yeah, let me be clear on what we agreed on and what we don't agree on. What we don't agree on is give a ceasefire to Hamas, with the exception of one intended for the release of our hostages. We're going to continue this to the end. We have to have victory. There's no substitute for victory, and we'll destroy Hamas, again, for our sake and for the sake of peace in the future. But in addition to that, we're fighting a war in which we are trying, doing our best in a way that very few armies have done, to give a safe corridor for civilians to get out of harm's way. As we're doing that, Hamas is firing on the safe corridors that we're giving to the Palestinian civilians. So against all these obstacles, we're still calling on civilians to leave. And for that, we create pauses – that is, a four-hour pause, three-hour pause and this in a particular area while the fighting proceeds elsewhere, to let the civilians out of harm's way. That's what we've been doing. We've been doing it through the cooperation with President Biden and the administration. And I think it's the right thing to do. We've created a humanitarian safe zone in southwest Gaza below the fighting area, south of the fighting area. We've pushed in humanitarian aid to help those civilians. And I think it's a combination of the two things: fight Hamas, don't give them safe haven, but allow those Palestinian civilian populations to reach a safe zone.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Mr. Prime Minister, as you know, even those in the South say they do not feel safe. French President Emmanuel Macron has said there is, quote, “No justification” for the ongoing bombing of civilians. All over the world you've seen protesters who are calling for an end to civilian deaths in Gaza. Can you win this war without global support?
BENJAMIN NETANYAHU:
We will win this war because we have no other choice. There's no life for us. There's no future for us and our neighbors if we allow the axis of terror, led by Iran, Hezbollah, Hamas, the Houthis, and their minions to dominate. We have an alliance for peace on the other side. It includes Israel, the United States, the moderate Arab states, and the rest of the civilized world. Now, it's a question of who wins? We have to win. There's confusion in many parts of the world. I have to say, not in the United States. I'm glad to see that the majority of the American people support Israel. They understand that we're fighting the just battle of civilization against barbarism. But those who protest for Hamas, you're protesting for sheer evil. There are a lot of misguided people out there who don't know the facts. You're talking to people who deliberately targeted civilians, who raped and murdered women. Who raped – who beheaded men, who burned babies alive, who kidnapped little babies and Holocaust survivors, you name it. These are the people that you're supporting. Now, you cannot, it's like in World War II. The Allies are fighting the Nazis, okay? Chancellor Scholz of Germany said that Hamas are the new Nazis. So imagine now the Allies are fighting the Nazis.They've invaded France after they were attacked by the Nazis. They go into the cities of Germany. Obviously, the Nazis are fighting within civilian quarters, and civilians get killed. In fact, many of them were killed. Millions were killed. Now, who do you protest against? Do you protest against the Nazis or do you protest against the Allies? And what these people are doing is protesting for sheer evil. That's wrong. And by the way, it's a condemnation. It's an indictment of higher education in some of our universities.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Mr. Prime Minister, as you know, a number of the protesters are protesting the actions by Israel. Even the secretary of state saying, quote, "Far too many Palestinian civilians have been killed." Let me ask you this: how many civilian deaths are you willing to bear in order to achieve your ultimate goal of eradicating Hamas?
BENJAMIN NETANYAHU:
If I had my way, there wouldn't be a single civilian death. If I had my way, no civilians would be killed. If Israel had its way and our calls would be heeded, they'll all be out of harm's way. And in fact, I'm saying this luckily now and fortunately, hundreds of thousands have moved out of harm's way, heeding our calls and overcoming Hamas' threats at them at gunpoint not to leave the zone.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Do you know how many civilians have been killed, Mr. Prime Minister? Do you know how many civilians have been killed? Do you have an accounting of the number?
BENJAMIN NETANYAHU:
I wouldn't trust the Hamas numbers. When you say Gazan officials, that's Hamas officials. That's what I'm saying.
KRISTEN WELKER:
What's your number? What's your number?
BENJAMIN NETANYAHU:
It's lower than theirs. And what is most important, Kristen, is that we see a steady decline in the number of civilian deaths as we – as our ground action proceeds. Because basically, people understand that they have to clear the way, and they leave. And remember, our goal, and we're taking extraordinary efforts to achieve it, is to minimize civilian casualties. This is our ethos. And here's the problem. We're faced with the most vicious kind of enemy, who not only attacks civilians, but commits the other war crime of deliberately hiding behind their civilians. They use them as human shields. They fire on our safe corridors that we give to Palestinian civilians. Not Israel who is doing that. So we have to at once try to focus our fire on the terrorists, try to minimize the civilian deaths, but at the same time not give immunity. Because I'll tell you what'll happen, Kristen. That will, this system. We'll do everything we can to minimize civilian casualties. But you have to do everything in your power to lay the blame for the civilian casualties on where it belongs, on Hamas. We don't want to make human shields an effective strategy for terrorists.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Mr. Prime Minister, I have a few more questions to get through, and I know that we're running out of time, so let me keep moving.The UN High Commissioner for Human Rights said just this morning that while Hamas has committed war crimes, “the collective punishment by Israel of Palestinian civilians amounts also to a war crime.” Can you definitively say right now that Israel is not breaking international law?
BENJAMIN NETANYAHU:
Yes. I can say that what the commissioner said is hogwash. Because we’re, the main difference is, are you deliberately targeting civilians? No. We're deliberately doing everything in our power to target the terrorists and the civilians, as happens in every legitimate war, are sometimes what are called collateral damage. There's a longer way of saying unintended casualties. That's clearly what Israel is doing. And what clearly Hamas is doing is the opposite. They're doing everything in their power to have their civilians hurt because they want this ridiculous and wanton attack on Israel – on Israel’s legitimacy to take root. And unfortunately, people are giving into this. If we lose sight, if we lose the moral clarity of supporting the force that is fighting the terrorists that are hiding behind civilians, and blaming the victim for these attacks, the victim who takes the just action to defend itself, then we'll never be able to fight the terrorists. They'll always hide behind civilians and we'll never be able to fight them.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Let me ask you about Gaza, Mr. Prime Minister. You said Saturday you are opposed to the Palestinian Authority returning to control Gaza after the war. And you say that Israel will control Gaza for as long as is needed. Are you saying that Israel would reoccupy Gaza? And what do you say to those who say there should be an international force that governs Gaza after the war?
BENJAMIN NETANYAHU:
Well, I think Gaza has to make sure that we – it's not a threat to Israel. We said, “Destroy Hamas.” And for that, if we want to have peace, we have to destroy Hamas. This is what Israel must do, and this is what Israel will do.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Would you accept an international force, Mr. Prime Minister? Would you accept an international force?
BENJAMIN NETANYAHU:
I think that the only force right now that can guarantee that Hamas, that terrorism does not reappear and take over Gaza again is the Israeli military. So overall military responsibility will have to be in Israel. As far as the civilian management of Gaza, we need to see the following two things: Gaza has to be demilitarized and Gaza has to be de-radicalized. And I think so far we haven't seen any Palestinian force, including the Palestinian Authority, that is able to do it. They teach their children to hate Israel. They're not fighting terrorists. They're paying for slaying. That is, the more terrorists – the more Palestinian terrorists murder Jews, the more they get paid. And to this day, 36 days after the worst savagery perpetrated on the Jewish people since the Holocaust, the Palestinian Authority president has yet – refuses to condemn the savagery. So we need a different authority. We need a different administration.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Who would that be?
BENJAMIN NETANYAHU:
There has to be Israeli – a military envelope.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Who would that be?
BENJAMIN NETANYAHU:
I think it's too early to say.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Okay.
BENJAMIN NETANYAHU:
Kristen, I think it's too early to say, but I can say one thing. The first task we have to achieve is defeat Hamas. The first task the Allies had to achieve before they could reconstruct Germany was to defeat the Nazis. These, as the German chancellor said, are the new Nazis. We'll defeat them. And then we'll work to have a demilitarized and a de-radicalized Gaza, which will give hope to these people. They're living under 16 years of horrendous tyrannical rule of Hamas. We'll liberate them and we'll liberate ourselves from this horror, this scourge of barbarism that plagues not only us. It's not only our war. Kristen, it's your war, too. It's the war of civilization against barbarism. We have to win it, and we will.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Very quickly, Mr. Prime Minister, as you know, many of Israel's top military, security and political leaders have taken responsibility for the attacks on October 7th. Can you be clear? Do you bear any responsibility for missing the attack?
BENJAMIN NETANYAHU:
Well, I've said that after the war there will be a thorough investigation, and everybody will have to answer some very tough questions, including myself.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Do you bear responsibility?
BENJAMIN NETANYAHU:
But right now we're focused on one thing.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Do you bear some responsibility?
BENJAMIN NETANYAHU:
We all bear responsibility. Look, nobody's going to evade responsibility. It's a non-issue.
KRISTEN WELKER:
But was your government distracted, Mr. Prime Minister?
BENJAMIN NETANYAHU:
Not because it's a non-issue. But because there will be time to deal with it. And the time that we have to deal with it is right now to win this victory. After Pearl Harbor, after 9/11, did you delve into that question? Of course you did, afterwards. But the first thing that you did was unite the entire country. America united to defeat the terrorists. And Israel right now, after our twenty 9/11s, twenty. Proportionately, that's what we've suffered. Twenty 9/11s on a single day. Right now I'm uniting the country, and we're going to fight until we achieve victory. Nothing short of victory.
KRISTEN WELKER:
What do you say to those who argue your administration was distracted by the months of protests due to your judicial reforms?
BENJAMIN NETANYAHU:
We weren't distracted at all. There will be time to answer all these questions, and I don't want to get into that. But again, I think right now, rather than re-litigating the past, which many people perhaps would like to do, but I think it's wrong. I think right now we have to focus every ounce of energy, every ounce of will and resolve to achieve our goal of destroying Hamas because our future depends on it. We won't have time to re-litigate the past if we don't have a future. Let's make sure we have a future. Let's defeat Hamas, which is, again, the battle to defeat the axis of terror. Because Hamas is the integral part of this axis of terror. And you know what? Everyone is sitting on the bleachers in the Middle East and in the world. And they want to see who's going to win. The good guys or the bad guys? And history doesn't favor automatically the good guys. They have to muster their resolve, their courage, their determination to defeat the bad guys. Otherwise we get into a dark age. It's happened before in history. We must make sure it doesn't happen again. That's what we're focused on. And I know most Americans understand that we have to defeat Hamas for our sake, and for your sake as well.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Prime Minister Netanyahu, thank you so very much for all of your time this morning. We really do appreciate it.
BENJAMIN NETANYAHU:
Thank you, Kristen.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And when we come back, with less than a week to go before a potential government shutdown, can Congress pass President Biden's urgent request for aid to Israel and Ukraine? Democratic Senator Chris Murphy joins me next.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. With just five days until a government shutdown, House Speaker Mike Johnson unveiled a plan on Saturday, which will likely depend on Democratic support to pass. The bill would extend government funding for a number of federal programs without spending cuts, including veterans and military construction programs through mid-January, and for others, through early February. It omits any funding for Israel or Ukraine. White House Press Secretary Karine Jean-Pierre panned it as “a recipe for more Republican chaos and more shutdowns – full stop.” But the real test will be in the Senate. Democratic Senator Chris Murphy, a member of the Foreign Relations Committee, joins me now. Senator Murphy, welcome back to Meet the Press. Thank you for being here.
SEN. CHRIS MURPHY:
Good morning.
KRISTEN WELKER:
So let's start right there with this bill. This is a two-tiered bill put forward by the newly-installed House Speaker Mike Johnson. Will you support it?
SEN. CHRIS MURPHY:
So first of all, this is no way to run a railroad. We shouldn't be in the position of having to pass multiple continuing resolutions. And in the Senate, we've been able to find bipartisan agreement on a budget that not only funds what the country needs, but gets money to our partners all around the world who are in desperate need of American support. Listen, we cannot have a government shutdown this weekend, certainly not while we are facing these existential crises for our friends in Israel and Ukraine. I don't like this laddered CR approach. It looks gimmicky to me. But I'm open to what the House is talking about. The priority has to be keeping the government open, and I think this is a moment where reasonable people in the Senate, and that's where most of the reasonable people are these days, have to make sure that we are not making the perfect the enemy of the good. I don't like what the House is talking about, but I'm willing to listen.
KRISTEN WELKER:
I hear you saying you're not a yes yet, but you're not a no. What do you need to get to yes on this piece of legislation?
SEN. CHRIS MURPHY:
Well, we are going to proceed in the Senate on a clean CR without gimmicks, without ladders. It does worry me that the House process requires you to come back and deal with half the budget on one date and half the budget on another date. That sounds to me a little bit of a recipe for failure. But I'm willing to listen to the case that they're making. I would much rather do what the Senate is doing – just pass a CR that keeps the entire government open to the same date.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Very quickly before we move on, does this bill make it more or less likely that there will be a shutdown?
SEN. CHRIS MURPHY:
Well, listen, I don't think anybody can predict what happens in the House of Representatives today. That place is a political dumpster fire right now. And until we get reasonable, thoughtful leadership that prioritizes bipartisan cooperation in the House, every single day is going to be a bit of a nightmare for the American people.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Are you concerned about Ukraine and Israel aid passing? Do you think it can get done before the end of the year?
SEN. CHRIS MURPHY:
It has to get done by the end of the year.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Will it?
SEN. CHRIS MURPHY:
I'm going to predict it will. Sometimes, you know, in this business I've learned that there are moments when you can't fail. And you can't necessarily see the path to get there, but you get there. Ukraine is running out of bullets for their guns. Israel desperately needs our support right now. Republicans in the Senate have said that they want there to be some border provisions as part of this package to move forward. Some of us are trying to work hard to meet those Republican concerns. I don't know whether we'll get there, but there are a lot of people of good will trying hard to get money for Ukraine, for Israel by the end of the year. I think it will get done.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right, let's talk about what happened this week. Mixed results for Democrats. On the one hand, Democrats had a very strong election night on Tuesday. On the other hand, there were a slate of troubling poll numbers for President Biden, which showed him trailing former President Trump in key battleground states. One Democrat described that to me as a “five-alarm fire.” Are you alarmed right now about the prospects of President Biden's reelection?
SEN. CHRIS MURPHY:
I'm actually not because I don't see those as “mixed results.” We don't choose a president based upon public opinion polling a year out. What matters in this country is Election Day. And over and over again, when voters turn out in elections, they are choosing Democrats. Why? Because we're talking about things that matter to people. How much money are they making? How much are they paying? Republicans are focused on things that don't matter. Regulating drag shows, trying to give guns back to criminals. These are things that fundamentally are completely divorced from where the American public are. And so I don't think these polls necessarily predict what the election a year from now is going to be. And I actually think when voters turn out to the polls, that's the sign of how strong the Democratic brand and President Biden's brand is today.
KRISTEN WELKER:
When I talk to Democrats, one of the things they're most concerned about is that these polls show President Biden losing support in key groups among voters of colors, young voters, union voters as well. How does he win back their support?
SEN. CHRIS MURPHY:
Well, continuing to talk about things that matter to those voters. Listen, I love President Biden taking a bold stand on the UAW strike. A lot of people, some of his advisors probably, told him not to go out there and get in the middle of a labor strike. But he did because he wants to show the American public, he wants to show middle-class voters, that he is going to take the side of workers, not corporate America, every single time when there's a fight. I think he needs to do more of that.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Let's talk about Senator Joe Manchin. His announcement this week that he's not going to run for reelection makes it tougher for Democrats to hold on to the Senate. How concerned are you about Democrats holding on to the Senate? How concerned are you he is going to run as a third-party candidate?
SEN. CHRIS MURPHY:
I like Joe a lot. He's been really critical to many of the successes that we've had in the United States Senate over the last two years. I'm not terribly worried about him running as a third-party candidate. If he does, he probably draws more votes from Donald Trump than he does from Joe Biden. And two years ago people didn't think that we could hold the United States Senate, that we had to essentially draw an inside straight, win every single competitive race. But we did, in part because the Republican candidates were and still are wildly extreme. And our candidates were really excellent. And that dynamic is still in play in 2024.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right, Senator Chris Murphy, thank you so much for being here. Really appreciate the conversation.
SEN. CHRIS MURPHY:
Thank you.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Thank you. And when we come back, what are the lessons for Republicans after Tuesday's election losses? I'll talk to Republican National Committee Chairwoman Ronna McDaniel. That's next.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. After election losses on Tuesday, including in Ohio where abortion rights were enshrined in the state's constitution, the Republican candidates challenging former President Donald Trump responded on stage to what a winning path forward would look like in a post-Roe world.
[START TAPE]
GOV. RON DESANTIS:
Yes, I think of all the stuff that's happened to the pro-life cause, they have been caught flat-footed on these referenda.
FMR. AMB. NIKKI HALEY:
Let's find consensus. Let's agree on what – how we can ban late-term abortions. Let's make sure we encourage adoptions, and good quality adoptions.
VIVEK RAMASWAMY:
Back to that Republican culture of losing. The Republicans did not have an alternative amendment or vision on the table.
FMR. GOV. CHRIS CHRISTIE:
This is an issue that should be decided in each state.
SEN. TIM SCOTT:
I would challenge both Nikki and Ron to join me at a 15-week limit. It is in our nation's best interest.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
Joining me now is Ronna McDaniel, chairwoman of the Republican National Committee. Chairwoman McDaniel, welcome back to Meet the Press. Thank you for being here.
RONNA McDANIEL:
Thank you for having me. Great to be with you.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Really appreciate it. Let's talk about Tuesday night. Let's talk big picture. Republicans say that they had a tough night on Tuesday. Obviously losses in Ohio, Virginia, Kentucky. What do you say to Republicans who say you bear some responsibility for that, and you're not the right person for this moment?
RONNA McDANIEL:
Well, I'm proud of the RNC, and I stand by what the RNC is doing. And some people don't understand what we do. We're a turnout machine, and actually it's going to look like more Republicans turned out in Virginia than Democrats. We actually turned out more Republicans than Democrats in Kentucky. We're not the messaging. That comes from the candidate, and that's up to them. But I'm very proud of our minority outreach that the RNC's doing, the 70 lawsuits we're in right now on election integrity, and our Bank Your Vote initiative. And I think it's instrumental in how we're going to win back the Senate, win the White House and keep the House in 2024.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right. Well, let's talk about one of the core issues, which we talked about with the candidates earlier this week: the issue of abortion. I want to put the same question to you that we asked them, which is: Given the losses that you saw on Tuesday, given the losses that we saw in the midterms, what is the path forward for Republicans on the issue of abortion, both in terms of messaging and policy?
RONNA McDANIEL:
You know, Kristen, I'm very passionate about this. I'm a suburban woman. I saw this in 2022 as Chair of the RNC. I actually put a memo out letting our candidates know this is a big issue. I think I probably took it more seriously than some others because I have suburban mom friends. This is my community. Listen, we have to talk compassionately. We can't attack women. We also have to define ourselves before the Democrats define us. And this is my number one message: if you're digging yourself out of a hole, you're going to lose. But if you go on TV and you say to the American people, "Listen, we all are passionate about this issue. And it's confusing right now. But in a time of consensus, can't we agree on reasonable limitations at 15 weeks when a baby feels pain?" And I think when you do that, will Democrats join me here – Democrats are still extreme on this issue. We win voters. But you have to define yourself first.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, let me follow up with you on that, because you talk about 15 week limits. That's what the governor of Virginia was pushing for, and Democrats, of course, swept the state legislature. Do you still stand by that message, that 15 weeks limit – a 15 week limit at the federal level is the right policy to be pushing for for the Republican Party?
RONNA McDANIEL:
So it's not my decision about federal or state. I think Glenn Youngkin actually did a good job. And I actually think the numbers in Virginia are going to bear that out with the higher turnout. Where they spent the money, though, is the issue. Democrats spent on abortion nine times to one for Republicans. And this is my point of, if you are letting them define you. They had ads going up saying we're going to ban everything, no exception for rape, life and incest. That just isn't true. Listen, I'm proud to be a pro-life party, but we can win on this message. The American people are where we are, and they want common sense limitations. They want more access to adoption. We want to make sure that there's pregnancy crisis centers. These are things we can win on. But we have to talk about it, and you can't hide in a corner and think abortion's not going to be an issue. This is what Democrats are running on, because they can't run on crime, they can't run on the border, they can't run on fentanyl. Three-hundred and fifty million in 2022 was spent on this issue. We just saw it again in Ohio and Virginia. There are lessons we have to take. And it's going to be up to the candidates to go on TV and say it. And I'll say one candidate, Danny Diggs in Virginia, ran for State Senate. They didn't sweep Virginia. It was one seat, okay? It's a purple state. But he had his daughter on TV, he took it head-on, and he really handled that issue well.
KRISTEN WELKER:
NBC News is reporting that in the wake of Tuesday's results, the campaign arm of the Senate
Republicans is calling on candidates to clearly oppose a national abortion ban in TV ads and speeches. I know you don't want to weigh in, but just big picture, is that a smart strategy? Is that the right approach?
RONNA McDANIEL:
I'm not going to get involved in – I'm not a policy person. I know my lane, and we're going to let the legislators, and the Senators and congressional members stake their lane out. The Democrats are going to make it a national issue, though. And I do think we have to talk about this issue, because the Democrats will say, “we're going to take it to the Senate and codify it.” And so, I think there's a lot of discussion to be had, but we can't just say it's a state’s issue and be done.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Let me ask you about the Republican front-runner, former President Trump. This week during one of his campaign events, he essentially threatened to indict his political enemies if he wins a second term. Does that essentially make the Republican Party take a stance of, "the Republican Party stands for revenge?" What do you think of that messaging?
RONNA McDANIEL:
You know, I'm not going to get involved in rhetoric that's happening during a contested campaign for our presidential nominee. I will say a lot of Republicans, Kristen, feel like there's a two-tier system of justice, that Republicans are getting prosecuted – or persecuted through prosecution. And they see it with President Trump. People really feel like there's one set of standards for Republicans and different for Democrats, and they've seen it come through Democrat attorneys general or others. And that is something that concerns a lot of Republicans.
KRISTEN WELKER:
As you know, though, Democratic Senator Bob Menendez has been indicted, the New York Democratic Mayor Eric Adams just had his phone searched by the FBI. So, doesn't that undercut the argument that there's a two-tiered system of justice? Democrats are being indicted, investigated as well. How can you guys continue to make that argument?
RONNA McDANIEL:
I think when you look at what's happened with the Biden family, and what's been uncovered since we've taken the House –
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, Hunter Biden's been indicted, too.
RONNA McDANIEL:
But it's more than that. I mean, when you see $20 million go to ten different family members through different LLCs from foreign companies, it's really concerning. I always think, if this were Donald Trump Jr. getting that money, there would be a big issue.
KRISTEN WELKER:
As you know –
RONNA McDANIEL:
Hunter Biden – millions of dollars from China. I mean, this is deeply alarming –
KRISTEN WELKER:
As you know, Hunter Biden is still under investigation by officials.
RONNA McDANIEL:
I know, but it's going really slow.
KRISTEN WELKER:
But let me –
RONNA McDANIEL:
Thank goodness we have the House.
KRISTEN WELKER:
– Let me, let me move on, though. Because I know you don't want to get into messaging, but let me just ask you big picture. Because former President Trump did raise eyebrows yesterday with his Veterans Day message. I'm just going to read you part of it. He says, quote, "In honor of our great veterans on Veterans Day, we pledge to you that we will root out the communists, marxists, fascists, and radical left thugs that live like vermin within the confines of our country, lie, steal, and cheat on elections, and will do anything possible, whether legally or illegally, to destroy America." Are you comfortable with this language coming from the GOP front-runner?
RONNA McDANIEL:
Again, I am not going to comment on candidates and their campaign messaging. I will say this: I know President Trump supports the veterans, our whole party supports our veterans. And I do think we're at a very serious moment in our country. The one thing I wish had come out more in our debate is that the RNC and NBC for the first time ever had a Jewish co-sponsor for a debate. I am really proud of that history that we created, so thank you for being part of that. Because this is a time where we met the moment.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Thank you so much for having us. It was an honor to –
RONNA McDANIEL:
Thank you –
KRISTEN WELKER:
– Co-moderate that debate.
RONNA McDANIEL:
Thank you.
KRISTEN WELKER:
We really appreciate it. Ronna McDaniel, thanks for being here.
RONNA McDANIEL:
Thanks for having me.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Good to see you. And when we come back, why is the maternal mortality rate so high for Black women in America?
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. Turning now to an issue which is important to us on Meet the Press, the crisis of Black maternity in America. Black women have maternal mortality rates roughly three times those of white women in the United States. On Meet the Press Reports, NBC's Zinhle Essamuah has a revealing look at being pregnant and Black in America.
[START TAPE]
KANIAH KING:
I think God put you on this Earth to do something. I think being a mom is my something.
ZINHLE ESSAMUAH:
Her third time around, Kaniyah says her delivery experience was good. But it wasn't always this way.
KANIAH KING:
I've noticed that with having babies, the doctors don't care what will happen to you as a Black woman. They weren't talking to me, they were talking amongst themselves like I wasn't in the room, and I was the one giving birth. I was just an object, it seemed like.
ZINHLE ESSAMUAH:
What do you think made the difference?
KANIAH KING:
Miss Robin, actually, my doula. With her advocating for me and her talking to my doctors -- having someone advocate for you when you're in that time where you cannot advocate for yourself means a lot, and I think every Black woman should have that.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
You can watch Meet the Press Reports: Pregnant and Black, America's Maternal Health Crisis this morning on NBC News NOW, and anytime on Peacock or YouTube. This is an issue we will continue to stay on top of here at Meet the Press. When we come back, Congress has less than a week to avoid another government shutdown. Is there a plan to avoid it? The panel is next.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. The panel is here: NBC News Managing Washington editor Carol Lee; former Homeland Security Secretary Jeh Johnson; and Marc Short, former Chief of Staff to Vice President Mike Pence. Thank you, all of you, for being here today. Carol, let me start with you and just set the stage because you have some news that you just reported out moments ago, which is basically that the president's top advisor in the Middle East is heading to Israel. What do you know?
CAROL LEE:
Well, that's right, Kristen. Brett McGurk, the president's top Middle East advisor, is scheduled to head to the Middle East this week. He'll go to Israel. And his mission is to focus on the release of hostages. He's also going to Qatar, which has been key in these negotiations over the release of hostages and they're exploring multiple options, the administration is. And one of those options is securing the release of about 80 women and children who are being held hostage and in exchange for that, the release of Palestinian women and teenagers that are being held by Israel. It’s one option. There's no guarantee that any of this is going to succeed, but Brett McGurk is going to travel there to try to move this forward. And it all comes as the administration is trying to weigh its support with Israel and its growing concerns about how Israel is carrying out this war. In particular, there is concern, officials tell me, that Israel is not doing enough to try to minimize civilian casualties. There are officials that don't believe that Israel cares, that the Israeli government cares that public opinion is turning against them.
And it all comes as conversations, I'm told, between Israeli officials and U.S. officials are getting increasingly testy. And at the same time, Kristen, we're told that there's no change in the strategy, that the administration is going to stand with Israel. They're continuing to give the support that it needs, that President Biden feels like his approach has given him the influence that he needs to get things like pauses and humanitarian aid.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, it's such great reporting. And, Jeh, it takes me to my next point, because you had Prime Minister Netanyahu's defiance when I pressed him on this idea that there are protests all around the world calling for a ceasefire, calling for an end to the civilian deaths.
JEH JOHNSON:
If the reporting is to be believed, civilian deaths in Gaza are about to become ten times the number of Israeli deaths on October 7th. Prime Minister said that the Israeli defense forces are not targeting civilians. Of course they're not targeting civilians. No one really believes that they're targeting civilians. However, you can target the enemy, the terrorist, and have a callous disregard for civilian deaths and violate the laws of armed conflict. And that's the rising concern across the – across the globe right now. I give the administration – the Biden administration a lot of credit for firmly standing behind Israel right after October 7th but also publicly and privately warning the government of Israel about civilian casualties, about the possibility of a ceasefire, getting humanitarian aid. They're walking a fine line, but I think our government is doing the best it can right now.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And, Marc, weigh on this. Because politically speaking, Republicans this week had a debate. They largely stood firmly by Israel, just as the Biden administration has been doing. On Capitol Hill, a battle is playing out about how to get funding for Israel. It's not included in this first proposal to keep the government open. How much urgency do you think there is to get something passed on Israel aid?
MARC SHORT:
I think there's urgency, and I think Speaker Johnson is uniquely positioned right now in a very divided conference to help unite it and get that done. I don't know that I accept the premise though, Kristen, your question, that House Republicans, the people on the stage are in the same position as the Biden administration. I do think the Biden administration is getting weak kneed on this. I think it's concerning. There’s never been – there's not been an attack in 80 years like this on the Israeli and Jewish people. We're seeing a rise in antisemitism like we have not seen and yet the messaging is concerned about Islamophobia. I think that the reality is we need to stand with Israel right now and I think the Republicans on that stage and Republican members of Congress are willing to do that.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Jeh, what's your reaction to what Marc just said?
JEH JOHNSON:
I – I mean, I agree. I think we need to stand by Israel. I see public opinion, political opinion in this country shifting, as Carol pointed out. And, increasingly, as the civilian deaths in Gaza are highlighted every night on the news, you know, opinion in Congress may shift as well. But this is a very tough situation.
KRISTEN WELKER:
It sure is, and it's all coming against the backdrop of these election results that we saw on Tuesday. Carol, and because you never sleep, you have more reporting about all of this as well. And the fact that this was a mixed week for Democrats. They had wins on Tuesday night. On the flip side, they had some poll numbers that were really troubling to them: the fact that Biden trails Trump in five out of six key battleground states; and then Senator Joe Manchin announcing he's not running for reelection. If you look at the battleground map, it shows you just how tough it is for Democrats to hold on to the Senate. There you see Ohio, Arizona, the toss-ups. What's the strategy that you're hearing within the Biden campaign?
CAROL LEE:
Well, first, on Senator Manchin, the White House tried to convince him to run for reelection. Obviously, that – that didn't work. The officials that I talked to said that they don't think he'll ultimately run third party, but they don't actually really know. They think that he's worried about his legacy, doesn't want to be seen as electing former President Trump, and also has a good relationship with President Biden and wouldn't want to put him in that position. So there's that. In terms of where the president and his team are after those polls and the election, I'm told that the president is feeling really good after that Tuesday's election. That he also heard privately from allies of his that he needs to take the fight to president – former President Trump much more directly. And he made a concerted decision to do that at an event with union workers, where he went after the president – former president and said, "Look, I've been there for you, and I hope you remember that." And he also called him out on abortion, and is supposed to, he's going to increasingly do that.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And, Jeh, I mean, take us inside what Democrats are saying. Are alarm bells going off, and is this the right shift in strategy? As Carol says, the president's going to shift to taking on Trump. He's in campaign mode now despite the fact the White House said they were going to wait until the spring.
JEH JOHNSON:
First of all, we're a year from the election. I agree with David Brooks: polls are where people vent, it's not where they vote. And you look at – you look at history. You look where Obama was in 2011. You look where Barack Obama was in 2007, 30 points behind Hillary Clinton right now. So it's still a long way to go. I do not believe Joe Manchin is going to be a third-party candidate for president. I don't think he wants to be perceived as the spoiler that hands the election to Donald Trump. So it's still a long way.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Marc, what do you make of this moment and what we all witnessed on Tuesday night? How much do you think abortion is a motivating factor for the Democratic base, and how concerned are Republicans about that?
MARC SHORT:
Well, I think the Republican Party needs pro-life voters, and the reality is the party needs to continue to be the party for life. There's no doubt that right now the left is more energized since the Dobbs decision than the right is. I think that's apparent. But I also think that accepting, I think as Tim Scott said on your debate stage, accepting a minimum that says when a baby can feel pain that's where we're going to protect life I think is generally supported by a majority of Americans. I don't think we've articulated that well. And I think we need to contrast the Democrat position, which is abortion on demand up until birth, which is far just more in line with North Korea and China than it is with the developed world. I mean, the position of taking a – of limiting abortion once you can begin to feel pain is even to the left of where France and Macron is, where the limit is 12 to 14 weeks.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right. Okay. Thank you guys for a great conversation. Really, really appreciate it. That is all for today. Thank you for watching. Happy Veteran’s Day weekend. Thank you to our veterans and families for their service and sacrifice. We will be back next week because if it's Sunday, it's Meet the Press.