KRISTEN WELKER:
This Sunday, aiding allies. President Biden makes his case for funding the wars in Israel and Ukraine as vital to America’s national security.
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
When terrorists don’t pay a price for their terror, when dictators don’t pay a price for their aggression, they cause more chaos and death.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And he calls on Congress to fund both wars.
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
We can't let petty partisan angry politics get in the way of our responsibility as a great nation.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Now the urgent effort to free more hostages after two Americans are released. As both conflicts rage on, will the U.S. be able to build support for staying in the fight? I’ll ask Secretary of State Antony Blinken and former Vice President Mike Pence. Plus, House in chaos.
REP. PATRICK McHENRY:
A speaker has not been elected.
REP. JIM JORDAN:
We need to come together and figure out who our speaker is going to be.
KRISTEN WELKER:
The House of Representatives remains leaderless as the Republican fight over who will become the next speaker drags on.
REP. KEVIN McCARTHY:
The crazy eights led by Gaetz, the amount of damage they have done to this party and to this country is insurmountable.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Is there a solution to this dysfunction? Will anyone be able to get the gavel? I’ll talk to the former House Speaker Kevin McCarthy. And, admission of guilt.
SIDNEY POWELL:
Guilty.
KENNETH CHESEBRO:
Guilty.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Two former Trump lawyers plead guilty in the Georgia election case. What will it mean for Donald Trump’s legal defense? Joining me for insight and analysis are: New York Times Chief White House Correspondent Peter Baker, Amna Nawaz, co-anchor of PBS NewsHour, Washington Post columnist David Ignatius and Danielle Pletka of the American Enterprise Institute. Welcome to Sunday. It’s Meet the Press.
ANNOUNCER:
From NBC News in Washington, the longest-running show in television history, this is Meet the Press with Kristen Welker.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Good Sunday morning. The U.S. is stepping up its military readiness across the mideast, citing "escalations by Iran and its proxy forces," as the U.S. and Israel prepare for a widening war. American-Israeli hostages Judith and Natalie Ranaan spoke to President Biden on Saturday, after being released by Hamas. They were abducted in the terror attack two weeks ago in southern Israel.
[START TAPE]
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
Hey Judith.
JUDITH RANAAN:
Hello President Biden
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
I’m so glad you’re home. Or not home, but glad you’re out.
JUDITH RANAAN:
Thank you so very, very much.
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
Hey Nat, how are you? God love ya.
NATALIE RANAAN:
I just wanted to say thank you for your services for Israel.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
Now, according to the Israeli military, 212 hostages are still being held captive, at least 30 of them under the age of 16. The first 20 trucks carrying aid moved through the Rafah border crossing from Egypt into Gaza on Saturday but did not include fuel, critical to keeping hospitals running and to providing clean water. And there's the threat of a widening war. President Biden and his top aides have been urging Israeli leaders against carrying out any major strike against Hezbollah in Lebanon, which could draw Israel into a two-front war. And there is the growing threat from Iran. On Wednesday, at least two drones targeted the U.S. Garrison in southern Syria, injuring several U.S. personnel. Drones and rockets also targeted bases with the U.S. troops in Iraq this week resulting in several more minor injuries. Thursday, a U.S. Navy ship in the northern Red Sea downed four cruise missiles and more than a dozen drones launched from Yemen by pro-Iranian Houthi forces that seemed to be heading towards Israel. Overnight, the Pentagon announced the U.S. is sending additional missile defense systems to the region, moving a carrier strike group to the Persian Gulf, and putting additional U.S. troops on "prepare to deploy" orders. President Biden is linking a request for aid to Israel to Ukraine, formally asking Congress for $105 billion dollars in emergency funding. On Thursday night, the president pressed for American engagement at a time of growing global instability.
[START TAPE]
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
History has taught us that when terrorists don't pay a price for their terror. When dictators don't pay a price for their aggression, they cause more chaos and death and more destruction. They keep going and the cost and the threats to America and the world keep rising.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
And joining me now is Secretary of State Antony Blinken, who recently returned from a whirlwind diplomatic trip to the Middle East which took him to Egypt, Bahrain, Qatar, the United Arab Emirates, Israel, Jordan and Saudi Arabia twice. Secretary Blinken, welcome back to Meet the Press.
SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:
Good morning, Kristen. Good to be with you.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Thank you for being here on a very big Sunday. I want to start with the hostage situation. As we reported, of course, those two American hostages have been released this morning. Hamas has come out with a statement saying they are prepared to release two more hostages. What can you tell us about that? Do you see this as a credible offer coming from this terrorist organization?
SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:
Well, first Kristen, we've been working on this from day one, engaged with different partners in the region, sending clear messages about the need to immediately and unconditionally release all of the hostages. And it was gratifying to see that Judith and Natalie Raanan were released yesterday. I had a chance to speak to them as well. They were – they sounded strong of mind, strong of spirit. But there remain many others. And we're hopeful that more are released, but the bottom line is this: They need to be released. Each and every one of them, now, unconditionally.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Do you take this word by Hamas that they are potentially prepared to release two more hostages seriously? Is the U.S. government, for example, working with Qatar to make that happen as we speak?
SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:
Well, action is what speaks, not words, particularly coming from Hamas. But we've been engaged, as I said, with partners. So one of the first things that I did after the horrific attack of October 7th and hostages were taken – men, women, young children, elderly people, it's extraordinary – was to talk to everyone we could who might have influence with Hamas in terms of releasing them. In the instance of Judith and Natalie, I again want to thank the government of Qatar for playing a very important role in getting them out and now on their way home to see their loved ones.
KRISTEN WELKER:
I want to ask you about their release. Can you tell us why those two were released, and why now, Mr. Secretary?
SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:
I can't. We don't know why Hamas chose to release Natalie and Judith first. And I use the word "first" advisedly because again, we're hopeful that more follow. I can't speak to that. What I can speak to is our incessant efforts from day one to try to get people home, to try to get them out of Gaza back with their families and loved ones. That is continuing as we speak. This is something we're engaged in virtually around the clock.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Do you believe that all ten unaccounted for Americans are being held hostage?
SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:
Well, Kristen, we don't know. As you said, we've got ten unaccounted for Americans. We believe that some significant number are hostages. But, you know, what's happening is – and it just underscores the horror – Israel continues to discover, uncover people who were killed, who were slaughtered, and I use that term very advisedly, slaughtered on October 7th. So what we don't know for sure is whether some of the unaccounted for are dead and have simply not been uncovered yet, or whether they're hostage. But we – we have a pretty strong idea that some number of the ten at least are being held in Gaza by Hamas.
KRISTEN WELKER:
I want to talk to you about the ground operation in Israel. I spoke to an IDF spokesperson earlier this week who said they are not planning to change their strategy despite the fact that two hostages have now been released. I want to ask you: does the U.S. want Israel to wait on its ground operation until more hostages can be freed?
SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:
Kristen, let's first step back a second and put this in perspective. The attack of October 7th; the slaughtering of men, women, children; the rocketing of Israel that continues to this day, no country – no country could accept that. And so Israel has not only the right, as we said, but the obligation to defend itself. We are not in the business of second guessing what they're doing. We are talking to them on a regular basis about how they do it. It's vitally important that every measure be taken to protect civilians, that humanitarian assistance gets in to people who are caught in this cross fire of Hamas' making. And of course both of us want to make sure that the many hostages who've been taken come home. And that's why we're working on it, as I said, virtually every minute of the day. But these are decisions that Israel has to make. We can give our best advice, our best judgment, again, about how they do it and also how best to achieve the results that they're seeking.
KRISTEN WELKER:
I want to try to get some clarity from you about the water situation in Gaza. As you know, Israel decided to cut off water to Gaza along with the fuel, electricity that powers the water and sewage plants in the territory. That has exposed residents to all sorts of potential contaminated water and sickness as well. What was the strategy behind that? And can you clarify: has any of the water been restored, Mr. Secretary?
SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:
So this is something that we've also been working on from – virtually from the beginning. When I was in Israel, and throughout the region as you mentioned a little while ago, one of the things that I was very focused on was making sure that people in Gaza, innocent people who are caught in this through no fault of their own, in this cross fire of Hamas' making, get the assistance they need, whether it's food, whether it's medicine, whether it's water. And so we were able to --
KRISTEN WELKER:
Has any of it been restored, Mr. Secretary --
SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:
So --
KRISTEN WELKER:
– just to be clear?
SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:
– in short, yes. Two things. First, there are multiple pipelines. Israel turned back on one of the pipelines about six or seven days ago. So that was an important step. There are a couple of other pipelines that we'd like to see restored in addition. Water is coming in. As you mentioned we had the first 20 trucks of assistance come in. That includes water. We're getting more that we hope will be moving as early as today. In fact, we were just told that some of the convoys have started to move again and are moving as we speak. At the same time, there are other things that need to happen. There are desalination plants that need to be powered in order to make sure that the water people are drinking is clean. We do have concerns about the spread of disease as a result of people drinking dirty water. All of these things are very much part of what we're doing, again, every day to try to make sure that Palestinians have the assistance they need. We appointed a very senior diplomat, David Satterfield, to be on the ground every day working to make sure the humanitarian aid that people need is getting there. And this is a work in progress. It's something we're at all the time.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Mr. Secretary, there's been a lot of discussion about what happens after the war. Can you tell us what Israel's strategy is, after your meeting with Prime Minister Netanyahu? Who will govern Gaza once the war is over?
SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:
One thing's for sure. Israel cannot go back to the status quo. And again, no country would be able to accept that.
KRISTEN WELKER:
But is there a clear --
SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:
No country would want to go back --
KRISTEN WELKER:
– strategy, Mr. Secretary? Is it clear who's going to govern Gaza once this war is over?
SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:
I think we know two things. We can't go back to the status quo. They can't go back to the status quo with Hamas being in a position in terms of its governance of Gaza to repeat what it did. At the same time, what I've heard from the Israeli's is absolutely no intent, no desire to be running Gaza themselves. They moved out of Gaza unilaterally, unconditionally a couple of decades ago. But they can't be in a position where they're constantly at the threat of the most horrific terrorist attacks coming from Gaza. So something needs to be found that ensures that Hamas can't do this again, but that also doesn't revert to Israeli governance of Gaza, which they do not want and do not intend to do. There are different – there are different ideas out there about what could follow. But all of that, I think, needs to be worked. And it's something that needs to be worked even as Israel is dealing with the current threat.
KRISTEN WELKER:
As I had mentioned earlier, we have seen an uptick in attacks against U.S. military facilities – against troops around the region. Overnight, the Pentagon announced it was actually increasing its force posture in the region. How concerned are you about Iran trying to escalate this war?
SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:
We are concerned. In fact, we expect that there's a likelihood of escalation, escalation by Iranian proxies directed against our forces, directed against our personnel. We are taking steps to make sure that we can effectively defend our people and respond decisively if we need to. This is not what we want, not what we're looking for. We don't want escalation.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Is --
SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:
We don't want to see a second or third front develop. We don't want to see our forces or our personnel come under fire. But if that happens, we're ready for it.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Is the U.S. opposed to a pre-emptive strike by Israel, as has been discussed by some Israeli officials?
SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:
The Israelis have been very clear with us. And we share this view. No one wants a second or third front, including when it comes to Lebanon – northern Israel, southern Lebanon. That's not in anyone's interest. And that's exactly why we've sent a very strong message to try to deter Hezbollah, deter Iran more directly, from opening up a second front. You've heard the president speak to this very clearly. He has put countries and non-state actors on warning, "Don't take advantage of the situation." We've also deployed very significant assets to the region, two aircraft carrier battle groups, not to provoke, but to deter, to make clear that if anyone tries to do anything, we're there. So my expectation is that, again, it's coming from us, coming from Israel. No one is looking for that second front.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And I just finally, with the few seconds we have left here, want to ask you about the more than $100 billion in aid that President Biden is requesting from Congress, currently in a state of paralysis without a speaker of the House. How can the U.S. deliver on that aid if you can't get it through the House, where there are also deep divisions about potentially leaking aid to Israel and Ukraine?
SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:
We – we need to see the continuation of strong bipartisan support for both Ukraine and for Israel. We have two friends who are under attack in different ways. But you heard the president speak very powerfully, very eloquently to this the other night, speaking to the American people. We know that if we let would-be aggressors act with impunity, whether it's a state like Russia, whether it's terrorists like Hamas, we open a Pandora's Box for other aggressors around the world to try to get away with the same thing. So we have to stand strongly with our friends. We have to stand strongly with both Ukraine and with Israel. We have to be looking out for the people of Gaza who are caught in this cross fire. The supplemental budget request, the money the president asked Congress for, would do just that. It gives us the assistance that Ukraine needs, that Israel needs, and also that the people of Gaza needs with a lot of humanitarian aid. So we need Congress. And we need it to move forward on the strong bipartisan basis we've already seen when it comes to supporting both Ukraine and Israel, and I hope the people of Gaza.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right. Secretary Blinken, thank you very much for your time this morning. We really appreciate it.
SEC. ANTONY BLINKEN:
Thanks, Kristen.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And when we come back, there's still no speaker of the House, as we just said, as the war rages on in Israel. The former speaker of the House, Kevin McCarthy, joins me next.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. With no speaker of the house for more than 18 days, the government shutdown looming, and an aid package for Israel stalled, Republican divisions have broken out into the open in angry reclamations and even death threats. On Friday, House Republicans dropped hard-right Republican Congressman Jim Jordan as their candidate for speaker, after he failed for the third time to get the necessary votes, leaving Democratic leader Hakeem Jeffries as the candidate with the most votes but short of a majority. Nearly ten House Republicans are now exploring bids for speaker. Joining me now is the man whose name is still on the sign above the speaker's office, former House Speaker Kevin McCarthy. Mr. Speaker, welcome back to Meet the Press.
REP. KEVIN McCARTHY:
Thank you. Thanks for having me on.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, thank you for being here. Look, as we have said, the House of Representatives has been without a speaker for nearly three weeks now. What do you say to Americans who look at this chaos and believe it's a sign that Republicans cannot govern?
REP KEVIN McCARTHY:
Well, that's embarrassing. And you've got to understand why we are here. Eight Republicans, lead by Gaetz, have created this chaos by joining every single Democrat in voting to shut down one branch of government. Look, I would do the exact same thing again. Could you imagine if we were having this discussion right now with the American government shut down, with our troops in the Middle East wondering when they'll ever get paid again? Keeping the government open was the right decision to make. And I'd make it again, each and every day. Now, the two men, Steve Scalise and Jim Jordan, they could have done the job as speaker. Unfortunately, the chaos has continued. We need to solve this problem. We've got a wide-open Southern border. We've got crushing inflation. We've got war in the Middle East. This is not a moment in time to play around with learning on the job. We need someone who understands how to do this job. I believe Tom Emmer, our whip, he's been in the room with all of our successes, from our bills to secure the border, from Parents Bill of Rights, from cutting $2 trillion getting work requirements. He knows how to do the job across the street at the same time, helping us win the majority. He sets himself, head and shoulders, above all those others who want to run. We need to get him elected this week, and move on, and bring not just party together; but focus on what this country needs most.
KRISTEN WELKER:
We're going to delve into Tom Emmer in just a moment. But first, I want to ask, I hear you invoking Democrats. I understand why. The reality, though, is, as you know, Republicans control the House. Does this not come down to Matt Gaetz ultimately moving to oust you? And therefore, do you bear some responsibility for this, Mr. Speaker, for agreeing to give him the deal in the first place to be able to remove you with just one vote?
REP KEVIN McCARTHY:
Well, that deal has been with every speaker in the house. The only person who changed it is Nancy Pelosi, but no other party – I had the power to make this motion against Nancy Pelosi, but I never did because I believed in the institution of the House. All of the other Democrat leaders believed they never should be able to raise this issue. Remember, as we go forward in the next decade, if the majority changes, no one's going to have a big majority. So what Hakeem Jeffries has just done, changed the institution itself to say, "It's okay to always make a motion to try to shut down one branch of government," so--
KRISTEN WELKER:
But, Mr. Speaker, just to be clear--
REP. KEVIN McCARTHY:
From my perspective, what Matt Gaetz has done here, think about this, he has chosen, with no plan, concerned about an ethics complaint that was registered against him in the last Congress, to try to go and move and shut it down. This is the wrong approach. It's brought chaos. The Democrats went along with it, and they have blame, too. But I would sit back. I'll take whatever blame needed. But if the blame is on me for keeping government open and voting for the troops, I would do that again tomorrow.
KRISTEN WELKER:
But just very quickly, just to put a fine point on it, before we get to Tom Emmer, do you regret giving Matt Gaetz that power over you?
REP. KEVIN McCARTHY:
You don't have that choice. You have 218 votes to pass a rule. No Democrat would vote – they all voted just like they did to throw me out. They all voted against that rule, as well. So they wouldn't help at that time. So I believed moving forward is the best, like every other speaker has had.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Let's talk about Tom Emmer. Obviously, you had Steve Scalise. You had Jim Jordan, who couldn't get enough votes. Do you think Tom Emmer will actually be able to get enough votes to be speaker? Because all of my reporting suggests it's an uphill battle.
REP. KEVIN McCARTHY:
I do. I believe – it's going to be an uphill battle. But if you simply look at what's the chaos right now, a wide-open Southern border, I'm concerned about a cell sitting inside America today. We just caught 18 people, just last month, on the FBI terrorist watch list, coming across our border. More than 160 have done it this year, a record breaking. When we're looking around the Middle East and the uprisings popping up around Europe and others, they could be sleeper cells right now in America. But this administration has done nothing to change what's happening on the Southern border. We've got government funding, where our troops wouldn't be paid, sitting here in a month. Tom Emmer has been a part of our successes, from not just winning the majority, but being in the room to help us pass a border security bill, to make us energy independent, Parents Bill of Rights, to stand up when the Democrats wanted to defund the police and decriminalize so many of those laws. And he has been successful. This is not a time for a learning experience as speaker. Tom would be able to walk into the job and do it on day one.
KRISTEN WELKER:
But, Mr. Speaker, you're talking about all of the urgent needs, all of the pressure, including the war in Israel. Why isn't that enough to have already gotten a speaker in place, holding the gavel? Why should it be any different now with Tom Emmer? You said the same thing about Jim Jordan last week.
REP. KEVIN McCARTHY:
Well, I think why wouldn't that be the case that I'd still be in the job. Unfortunately, we have eight people, led by Gaetz, that put something different in their beliefs. I don't know why they would follow Gaetz about his ethics complaints. I don't know what's in it. I legally can't be involved in it, must be rather serious to put this much jeopardy into this nation. I would have hoped that everyone would come together, put the country before the politics, and actually solve this. Steve Scalise would have done an excellent job. I supported him. Jim Jordan would have. I just know this is not a time to play games. This is embarrassing for the Republican Party. It's embarrassing for the nation. And we need to look at one another and solve the problem.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Mr. Speaker, just to put a very fine point on it, if Emmer cannot get the votes, would you rule out running for speaker again, to get your old job back?
REP. KEVIN McCARTHY:
Look. I don't need the title. I'm going to help in any way I can.
KRISTEN WELKER:
I don't hear you ruling it out, Mr Speaker. Would you rule it out?
REP. KEVIN McCARTHY:
Look, I know you have your job. I'm supporting Tom Emmer. But I'm going to tell you, I am still a member of Congress and I am going to lead in any capacity I can help to protect America. I'm going to work to secure our border. I'm going to work to stop the inflation. I'm going to make sure war does not break out in Israel and that Israel has every resource they need to defend themselves. But most importantly, I'm going to press this administration. We have to destroy Hamas, but you cannot do it without confronting Iran. They need to change their policies. Iran only had $4 billion in the foreign exchange when they took office. They now have $70 billion. Iran only produced 400,000 barrels of oil a day when Biden took office. They now produce three million. They're getting billions of dollars to fund terrorism around the world. And you cannot stop Hamas, you cannot get the American hostages back without confronting Iran. And they cannot make the same mistake they did in Afghanistan. We have to be very clear. Every single American has to come home. No one will be left behind. And I can do that as a congressman. I can do that as a citizen. And I will do it and stand up for the American people.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And, Mr. Speaker, just to be very clear, we didn't hear you rule out potentially putting your name back in, if there's no speaker. But let me move on. Look, to your point, to the urgent need, we just heard Secretary Blinken make this same exact case. So once there's a speaker back in place, will you move immediately on the request by President Biden, which includes linking aid to Israel and Ukraine?
REP. KEVIN McCARTHY:
Look. We will look at exactly what they put up. We're a different branch of government. We'll make sure there's no bloating in here. But the one thing this administration has to know, from the day I became speaker, they have to stop ignoring the Southern border. Israel should have their money right now. They are at the brink of war. There are more Americans dying on our Southern border than they are in Ukraine. Ukraine has $9 billion right now. So let's sit down and let's look exactly what weaponry they need. Israel, let's not dither around the--
KRISTEN WELKER:
But, Mr. Speaker, 31 Americans--
REP. KEVIN McCARTHY:
Let's send that tomorrow. And then, let's make sure.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yeah. The 31 Americans just lost their lives in Israel.
REP. KEVIN McCARTHY:
Let's make sure our Southern border is secure.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yeah. But 31 Americans just lost their lives in Israel.
REP. KEVIN McCARTHY:
That's right.
KRISTEN WELKER:
That is not something that we have seen happen at the Southern border, Mr. Speaker. But just to be very clear, would you support –
REP. KEVIN McCARTHY:
Oh yeah, but let me be very clear –
KRISTEN WELKER:
- linking aid to Ukraine to Israel? Would you support linking aid to Ukraine to aid for Israel?
REP. KEVIN McCARTHY:
No. Because I would not want to delay any aid for Israel. I would have already sent aid to Israel. If I was still speaker today, I would have done a number of things. We wouldn't even be talking about it today. First and foremost, I would have made sure that no longer are we paying for American hostages, that there would be consequences for any American, and no one's going to get left behind. I would have already sent the aid to Israel. I would have stood up to the antisemitism that's coming across the aisle, the lies that are being said by the Democrats, where Hakeem just says, “There's no statement.” I would have made sure that we had looked at our own border, that we don't have any sleeping cells here, that we would actually stop these terrorists coming across our own border. And I would have made sure, from that perspective going forward, that Israel had every sophisticated weapon they needed to defend themselves.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Mr. – Mr. –
REP. KEVIN McCARTHY:
So, no. Then, we would have brought up Ukraine aid at the same times we were talking about our own Southern border. And we would have been able to get the job done.
KRISTEN WELKER:
As you know, former President Trump has inserted himself at various moments, both in the speaker race, endorsing Jim Jordan, now not endorsing Tom Emmer, also calling for the government to shut down. Do you think former President Trump has made it more difficult for Republicans to govern in the House?
REP. KEVIN McCARTHY:
Look. No. I think the individuals themselves can make their decisions. Tom Emmer has the ability and shown the ability, not only can he pass the very difficult bills; he can help win the majority. He is the best person for the job. I've watched what we've been able to do just in these nine months. Think about this: we have passed a bill that makes us energy independent. We have passed the most Conservative border security bill that would secure our border. We have passed the Parents Bill of Rights. We have cut $2 trillion of wasteful spending. We have brought in a work requirement at the same time. We were passing appropriation bills, some that have never been passed by Republicans in 16 years. Unfortunately, eight Republicans, led by Gaetz, have brought us this chaos.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yes. Mr. Speaker –
REP. KEVIN McCARTHY:
We need to make sure that we make that correction and move forward.
KRISTEN WELKER:
We only have a few seconds left here. My question was about former President Trump. Let me just ask you this; quite simply, why haven't you endorsed him yet?
REP. KEVIN McCARTHY:
Well, the campaign is still going. There's a very good chance I would endorse President Trump.
KRISTEN WELKER:
He's the clear front runner. He's the clear front runner. What are you waiting for?
REP. KEVIN McCARTHY:
Well, you know what? Because I've got a Southern border wide open, I have war in the Middle East, I've got things I'm focused on right now. I believe President Trump will be our nominee. And I believe President Trump will get reelected.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Are you still a MAGA Republican, Mr. Speaker?
REP. KEVIN McCARTHY:
Think about what Biden has done. You know what? I am a Conservative Republican from the beginning to the end. And that's what I've always been. You can try to phrase different names to people. But I'm proud of who I am.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right. Former House Speaker Kevin McCarthy, thank you. We know you have a busy week ahead. Thanks so much for joining us.
REP. KEVIN McCARTHY:
Thank you for having me.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And when we come back, former President Trump spent more time in the courtroom than on the campaign trail this week. And yet, he is still the dominant front runner for the GOP nomination. His former Vice President Mike Pence, who is running against him, joins me next.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. Kenneth Chesebro, a former lawyer for Donald Trump's campaign, pleaded guilty on Friday to illegally conspiring to overturn Mr. Trump's 2020 election loss in Georgia, becoming the second former Trump lawyer and third defendant to plead guilty in the criminal racketeering case. Chesebro pleaded guilty to a single felony count of conspiracy to file false documents. Former Trump lawyer Sidney Powell and bail bondsman Scott Hall have also accepted plea deals and agreed to testify against others. Joining me now is Former Vice President Mike Pence, a Republican candidate for president. Thank you for being here. Welcome back to Meet the Press.
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
Thank you, Kristen, and congratulations.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Thank you so much. It's wonderful to have you here in studio. We're going to get to all of the Trump legal matters in just a moment. I want to start with what's happening in Israel, in the Middle East. Look, we know that President Biden has asked for this more than $100 billion aid package, and it's really exposed some divisions within the Republican Party. Former President Trump has said, for example, he doesn't necessarily think we should be writing a blank check to Ukraine. Do you support linking aid to Israel to aid to Ukraine? Is that the right path?
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
Well, first, I think it's important that American leaders in both parties speak with one voice. If the world knows nothing else, the world needs to know this: America stands with Israel. What happened two weeks ago was the most brutal assault on the Jewish people since the Holocaust. And we need to stand with Israel as they prepare to do what needs to be done, which is going to require a ground invasion. They're going to have to hunt down and destroy Hamas once and for all. And there's going to be hardship. There's going to be difficulty. But I really do believe this is a moment where American clarity and leadership is more important than ever. And – and – and before you get to the aid question, I also think, look, President Biden said the other night, "This is what happens when dictators are not held to account." Kristen, it's also what happens after a disastrous withdrawal from Afghanistan. It's also what happens after two years of appeasement by President Biden with Iran. And I really do believe it's also what happens when voices in my own party have been signaling retreat from the war raging in – in Ukraine, and even one candidate for president, Vivek Ramaswamy, recently was sounding the retreat in support for Israel. So, look, I really believe that this is a moment where we need to stand firm, we need to learn the lessons of history, but we need American leadership that's strong, and firm, and resolute for the sake of Israel, for the sake of peace in Eastern Europe, and for the security of the world.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Very quickly, on Ramaswamy, he said overnight there is no clear long-term objective, it's a recipe – with no clear long-term objective, it’s a recipe for a no-win war that will be bad for Israel and bad for the U.S. Does he have a point? Is it important to make sure that there's a clear long-term strategy?
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
Well, what's important is that Israel knows we are with them. I mean, it was about a month ago Vivek Ramaswamy actually said that we wouldn't send American armed forces into harm's way if Iran attacked Israel. Look, there's that old Bible verse that says, "If the trumpet does not sound a clear call, who will know to get ready for battle?" I really believe, in this moment, America has to send a clear call that we will stand with Israel every step of the way if they do what needs to be done. I agree with what one Israeli official said recently. Israel and Hamas cannot coexist. We must support Israel in their effort to crush Hamas and secure their nation.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And –
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
And I will.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And just yes or no, do you think that aid to Ukraine and Israel should be linked?
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
Of course, I've been a very strong supporter of military aid to Ukraine since the invasion by Vladimir Putin –
KRISTEN WELKER:
Would you support linking the aid?
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
I would support Congress moving that measure together or separately. But I think it's more important what the outcome is. I mean, I just heard the former speaker of the House say that we need to make sure Israel has what they need, particularly with resupplying Iron Dome and other security apparatus that exist in Israel, in their war. And we've been – we've been supporting Ukraine. But, at the end of the day, look, weakness arouses evil. And I really do believe that if America does not continue to respond to this moment in Eastern Europe and in the Middle East, to no less extent in the Asia-Pacific, with resolute American strength, the balance of the 21st century could look a whole lot more like the first half of the 20th century.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Let me ask you about some of your comments, because you said U.S. special forces should go into the region to rescue American hostages. I just want to be very clear –
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
Yeah.
KRISTEN WELKER:
You would support putting American boots on the ground to get hostages out?
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
Kristen, we've got Americans being held by bloodthirsty terrorists in Gaza. And if I was president of the United States, I would have directed Joint Special Operations Command to stand up Delta Force, to stand up the Navy SEALs, who do the best hostage rescue in the world, and say, "You need to – you need to work with IDF, and we need to tell Hamas, 'You've got 12 hours to turn American and Israeli hostages loose, or we are coming to get them.'" I mean, look, I welcome the release of two American hostages this week. I'm grateful for that. But going hat in hand to Qatar and standing by while Hamas decides whether they're going to release another hostage is totally unaccepted. We are the leader of the free world. We are Israel's strongest ally on the planet. We need to send a message to Hamas that you need to turn those hostages back over, or you'll answer not just to Israeli Defense Forces, but you'll answer to the United States Armed Forces.
KRISTEN WELKER:
I do want to ask you about Former President Trump's legal challenges. His former lawyer, Sidney Powell, as I just said, and Kenneth Chesebro, have taken plea deals in that Georgia election case. They have agreed to testify against other defendants. Do you believe that this is evidence that the false elector scheme was essentially not defensible?
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
Well, I must tell you, I know I did my duty on January 6th to support and defend the Constitution of the United States. And thanks to the courage of law enforcement, we quelled the violence that day, we reconvened the Congress and completed our work under the Constitution. But this whole business of false electors was something I wasn't aware of at the time. I've learned about efforts afterwards, but –
KRISTEN WELKER:
You didn't hear any conversations about the false electors at the time?
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
I just didn't, other than in the press. There was some discussion about people convening for electors. I mean, most of – most of what I was dealing with was that the president and a group of crackpot lawyers that had surrounded him were making the case that I had the authority to reject or return votes back to the states, which no vice president in history had ever asserted or ever should. The presidency belongs to the American people and the American people alone. And I know by God's grace I did my duty that day.
KRISTEN WELKER:
The president told me when I spoke to him last month, Mr. Vice President, that he was calling the shots. He said it was his decision to pursue the false election claims even after he'd lost in court. You have made the case that he was listening to crackpot lawyers, but did he undercut that argument that he was listening to the crackpot lawyers?
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE: 094233
No, I was in the room when I saw him doing it. But, you know, the president is responsible for the decisions that he made and the demands that he made on me. Look, our nation won a revolutionary war against a king, and I knew, from the first time I heard a rumor about the vice president being able to reject or return votes to the states, the founders of this country would have never granted one person the ability to decide which votes to be counted. But the president chose to believe that. He still believes it. He still stands by that, as do many of his supporters. But I must tell you, as I travel around the country, there's not a day that goes by that someone from literally every walk of life doesn't come up to me at an airport, or at a diner, at a pizza place and just thank me for what we did that day. And I always tell them, "It was God's grace that gave us the strength."
KRISTEN WELKER:
Let me ask you about your travels around the country, because you just released your fundraising, which has trailed behind a number of your competitors. Of course, you have been struggling in the polls. Mr. Vice President, if you don't qualify for this next debate, will you drop out of the race?
FMR. VICE PRES. MIKE PENCE:
Well, we're working really hard to qualify for the debate. And it's going to be down in Miami, and lots of people are going to MikePence2024.com and making a contribution to give us the numbers in contributions that we need to qualify. But, you know, I will tell you, look, I don't have the most money in this campaign. But I do have the most experience. I mean, it's the reason why I'm running, Kristen. I mean, when Karen and I thought through this over the last two years, I reflected on the fact that I think this country's in a lot of trouble. I think Joe Biden has weakened America, at home and abroad. It's become more clear around the world in recent weeks. And here at home, a crisis at our border, a crime wave in our major cities, families struggling, and the worst inflation in 40 years. And when I looked at my experience not just as vice president but as a governor of a successful conservative state, as a leader in the Congress of the United States, we thought of that other verse that says, "To whom much is given, much will be required," and we stepped forward out of a sense of duty." And it's carrying that message, bringing that experience forward that gives us great confidence that we're going to continue to drive forward in this campaign and continue to marshal the support of people all across the country.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Thank you, Mr. Vice President. We really appreciate it. And when we come back, protests have erupted across the Mideast this week as the war in Gaza intensifies. Is there a plan to deal with the core issues fueling the conflict?
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. Fears of a widening war in the Mideast are growing. This week, Israel's neighbor Jordan called for a greater effort to deescalate tensions. In 2009, Jordan's King Abdullah described what he believed is at the root of the instability in the region.
[START TAPE]
KING ABDULLAH II:
Unless we solve the core issue of the Palestinian-Israeli-Arab challenges, then we will always be an area of instability that costs all of us. The challenge that we have in front of an American public is connecting the dots. Any crisis that you want to talk about, whether it's Al Qaeda, Iraq, Syria, Pakistan, Afghanistan all comes back to the emotional issue that is Palestine and Jerusalem. Any conflict that you pick in the Middle East today, all roads lead back to Jerusalem, would probably be a better way of explaining it.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
When we come back, can the U.S. present – prevent Israel's war with Hamas from spreading? The panel is next.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. The panel is here. Amna Nawaz, co-anchor of PBS NewsHour, Peter Baker, chief White House correspondent for The New York Times, David Ignatius, foreign affairs columnist at The Washington Post, and Danielle Pletka, senior fellow at the American Enterprise Institute. Thanks to all of you for being here. Amna, I want to start with you, because you were in the region. You saw this firsthand. What were your key takeaways, having been in Israel?
AMNA NAWAZ:
You know, this is a nation that is forever changed, Kristen. I think this was an attack, the brutality of which really just shook the core of the people of Israel and people around the world, as we've seen. And I met a number of people who spoke to that. There was a woman named Noam whose father is among those currently being held hostage. He's elderly. They don't know if he's alive. He requires medication. It's heartbreaking to hear that story. There's a man named Gil who actually, himself, opposed the government of Benjamin Netanyahu. He had been in the streets protesting this government. He previously protested against Israeli occupation of Palestinian territories. He is sending his son off to war in a combat unit because this nation says, "This can never happen again." And we all bore witness to the brutality of that day. At the same time, I've talked to a woman named Hala, who lives in East Jerusalem. Her sister is in Gaza. And she doesn't know if her family's going to make it out alive. I spoke to a 25-year-old woman named Aseel as her family was fleeing their home in Gaza. And I could only speak to her on the phone because the connectivity is so bad. She tells me now she is waiting to die. Here's the challenge I found on the ground that I think is going to be the challenge for journalists moving forward. We have to hold two very different ideas in our heads at the same time. This was a brutal and barbaric attack, the likes of which shook the nation and the world, and Israel has a right to exist in dignity, and freedom, and peace. At the same time, in the last two weeks, we've seen thousands of Palestinians, including children, killed as a result of retaliatory strikes. And how do we report on that moving forward with empathy and skepticism?
KRISTEN WELKER:
That is the challenge as reporters and as a global community. And, Peter, you were on Air Force One when President Biden traveled to Israel. And that's exactly what Amna's saying: the fine line and the challenge for President Biden, who, publicly speaking, is saying, "We stand shoulder to shoulder with you," but privately, his message is different, more complicated.
PETER BAKER:
Yeah. He went to Israel to give a hug to the Israeli people, to basically say, "I am here with you." This is, of course, one of President Biden's longtime strengths, his empathy and sympathy in moments like this, the shared sense of loss. I was in the room with him when he met some of the people who, as Amna talked about, had great loss or had been defiant in the face of an enormous threat. And he had tears on his face, you know, he was hugging each of them one at a time. But he does have another message, and it is a message meant out of friendship, as they say, but one of caution, saying, "We made mistakes after 9/11. We felt that all-consuming rage that you feel now." And they have, in some ways, 15 9/11s, if you do the math on their population versus the losses that they've suffered. "But," he said, "Don't give into that primal feeling, because we made mistakes. Don't make the same." And what he's talking about there is widening the war beyond where it has to go. That doesn't mean that he's lecturing them. He wants very clearly to say, "I'm not lecturing." But in the private meetings, he asked pointed questions in a way that made clear his views and his feelings about how they should go forward.
KRISTEN WELKER:
David. You've been talking to IDF officials, or Israeli officials, I should say. What are your thoughts?
DAVID IGNATIUS:
So, the first thing I hear after expressions of the trauma that the country's going through underlines what Peter said. Israelis are genuinely grateful for President Biden's support, this combination of embracing Israel at a time when it really needs it and also being honest and direct about the dangers of overreaching. I hear Israeli officials thinking carefully about how to stage this next phase, the ground invasion of Gaza, in a way that doesn't get all the hostages killed. They have been trying over the last two weeks to map every inch of Gaza to find, if they can, where people are so that they know where the hostages are being held, they know how to behave appropriately. I hear people talking in great detail about how to avoid a two-front war. Every day, there's been some kind of action over the Lebanese border. The Israelis were tempted to go in hard. They worry that deterrence has failed with Hezbollah, as it clearly did with Hamas. But I think America's counsel has been heeded: "Don't be in a hurry to start that two-front war. Be careful." And then, finally, I hear a lot of discussion about, "What happens when this war ends?" Israel is committed to destroying Hamas. What then? And I think that's the question we're all going to be talking about for weeks, for months.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Dani, the Secretary of State couldn't answer that: "What happens then?" And he talked about concerns about this two-front war that David mentions.
DANIELLE PLETKA:
Well, the two-front war is a choice that Iran is making. This isn't Israel's choice. Right now, what we're seeing is the Iranians are allowing or asking their proxies, Hezbollah and others, to harass, to have a sort of a low-grade harassment campaign across the Syrian border, across the Lebanese border. Against American troops in Iraq, we've seen two or three separate attacks. Those are coming on Iranian orders for sure. So, it's unclear whether the Iranians really want to make this a two-front war. Certainly for the Israelis, it's absolutely right. They don't want that. They want to be able to focus on Hamas. I think the one problem that we see is that, as you see these calls for "the bear hug," as you describe it, right, which is, "We love you. Stay here." And the problem with that is, the Israelis have pursued that policy of restraint over the last 15 years, 16 years with Hamas. They called it, right, "mowing the lawn," right? "We get down the people who we need to deal with. We push away the people we need to push away." They can't do that anymore, and they're going to finish this no matter what.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right. Great conversation. Thank you all so much for being here. That is all for today. Thank you for watching. We will be back next week, because if it’s Sunday, it's Meet the Press.