CHUCK TODD:
This Sunday, full court press. President Trump names Judge Amy Coney Barrett to the high court.
PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
Today it is my honor to nominate one of our nation's most brilliant and gifted legal minds
AMY CONEY BARRETT:
I love the United States and I love the United States Constitution.
CHUCK TODD:
Setting up a high stakes fight over abortion rights and the Affordable Care Act just days before the election.
SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER:
Justice Ginsburg must be turning over in her grave up in heaven
CHUCK TODD:
My guests this morning: Republican Senator Roy Blunt of Missouri and Democratic Senator Cory Booker of New Jersey. Plus: Transfer of power. The president is complaining about his poll numbers --
PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
What would our popularity be if every day for almost four years you didn't hear any of this bullsh**?
CHUCK TODD:
-- and refusing to commit to a peaceful transition if he loses.
PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
We do want a very friendly transition but we don't want to be cheated.
CHUCK TODD:
Facing pushback from Democrats --
JOE BIDEN:
The last thing we need is the equivalent of a coup.
-- from Republicans --
SEN. CHUCK GRASSLEY:
It doesn't matter what the president says.
-- and raising alarms at the Pentagon. I'll talk to President Trump's former national security adviser, retired General H.R. McMaster. And - stage craft. President Trump is gearing up to launch personal attacks at Tuesday night's debate.
PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
He’s always different when he comes out because he’s on a different medication, I guess.
CHUCK TODD:
Can Biden stay focused?
JOE BIDEN:
I’m prepared to go out and make my case.
CHUCK TODD:
Joining me for insight and analysis are: Peter Baker, Chief White House Correspondent for The New York Times, Yamiche Alcindor, White House Correspondent for PBS NewsHour, former Democratic Senator Claire McCaskill of Missouri, and Lanhee Chen, fellow at the Hoover Institution. Welcome to Sunday. It's Meet the Press.
ANNOUNCER:
From NBC News in Washington, the longest-running show in television history. This is a Meet the Press with Chuck Todd.
CHUCK TODD:
Good Sunday morning. With coronavirus cases surging again and the president's poll numbers stalled, Republicans thought they had finally caught a break with the surprise Supreme Court vacancy serving as the October, or shall we say, September, surprise they needed to unite the party. But - just as they were teeing up comfortable talking points on the court, preparing to announce Judge Amy Coney Barrett - once again the president changed the subject, not just veering off message but creating yet another crisis. The president's comments casting doubt on whether he will commit to a peaceful transfer of power - "We're going to have to see what happens" dominated front pages and rattled folks all across Washington, including across the river at the Pentagon. Republicans were forced to distance themselves though few condemned the president by name, rushing out statements calling for an orderly transition of power - noting: "it’s a hallmark of our democracy", "a fundamental principle", "it's happened forever", "we’re not a banana republic” and - from Senator Ben Sasse - “The president says crazy stuff." All this taking the focus away from his announcement late yesterday of his Supreme Court pick. Hearings on her nomination are scheduled to begin two weeks from tomorrow, on October 12th, with Senate Republican leadership pushing for a vote just before the election. It comes at a time when President Trump has largely failed to close the gap with Joe Biden in the polls. In our new NBC News/Marist battleground state polls, Biden leads Trump by ten points among likely voters in Wisconsin and he’s up eight in Michigan, above 50 percent in both states most importantly. And it comes as the president desperately grasps for something, anything, to shake up this race, ahead of the first debate with Biden on Tuesday night.
PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
Today it is my honor to nominate one of our nation's most brilliant and gifted legal minds.
CHUCK TODD:
President Trump, scrambling to get back on message and to fire up his conservative base.
PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
Most important of all, she will defend your God given rights and freedoms.
CHUCK TODD:
If confirmed, Barrett - a favorite of religious conservatives - would ensure a 6-3 conservative majority on the court, setting up a bitter battle over abortion and the Affordable Care Act in the final days of the campaign.
SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER:
A vote for Judge Barrett is a vote to take away health care.
SE. JOSH HAWLEY:
Roe vs. Wade is a travesty. It's judicial imperialism.
CHUCK TODD:
The president’s pick could also energize his opposition.
PROTESTORS:
Vote him out.
CHUCK TODD:
While there is plenty of debate about whenin a pregnancy abortion should be legal, a 2-1 majority believes it should be legal in some form. The president - increasingly public about fears he will lose - is complaining about his poll numbers --
PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
What would our popularity be if every day for almost four years you didn't hear any of this bull****? Ok?
CHUCK TODD:
-- accusing the FDA of delaying a vaccine to hurt him politically --
PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
They're trying to do a little bit of the political hit. Let’s delay it just a little bit, you notice that? Let's delay the vaccine just a little bit.
CHUCK TODD:
-- and, for at least the fourth time this week, refusing to commit to accept the election results if he loses.
PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
I want to see a very peaceful transition, but it's gotta be a legal process.
CHUCK TODD:
Questioning the integrity of the election without evidence.
PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
We're not gonna lose this except if they cheat.
CHUCK TODD:
On Wednesday - the president floated the idea --
REPORTER:
Will you commit to making sure there is a peaceful transfer of power after the election?
PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
We're going to have to see what happens. You know that I have been complaining very strongly about the ballots.
CHUCK TODD:
Some Republicans pushed back. Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell tweeting, "There will be an orderly transition just as there has been every four years since 1792."
SEN. CHUCK GRASSLEY:
It doesn't matter what the president says. The Constitution says the presidency ends January 20th
SEN. DAN SULLIVAN:
We’re the United States of America. We’re not a banana republic.
CHUCK TODD:
The White House attempted to spin the comments.
LARRY KUDLOW:
I think his point of view is that it's necessary and constitutionally correct to nominate and confirm the 9th supreme court justice. That that would give us a common safeguard when it comes to the coming election.
CHUCK TODD:
But on Thursday - the president doubled down.
PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
We want to make sure the election is honest and I'm not sure that it can be.
JOE BIDEN:
The last thing we need is the equivalent of a coup. I mean, this is not, this is not who we are.
CHUCK TODD:
And joining me now is a member of the Senate Republican leadership team. He's chair of the Policy Committee. It's Senator Roy Blunt of Missouri. Senator Blunt, welcome back to Meet the Press, sir.
SEN. ROY BLUNT:
Good to be with you, Chuck.
CHUCK TODD:
I want to start with, obviously, the Supreme Court nomination and the timing of a vote on confirmation. I just want to -- I know you have said that you think this can be done before Election Day. The question I have for you is, should it be done before Election Day? And if so, why?
SEN. ROY BLUNT:
Well, what I said, what I’ve said was this needs to take all the time it needs to take, but it doesn't need to take more time than it needs to take. I've talked to Senator Graham about this, trying to make arrangements as the chairman of the Rules Committee for room and space and security and other things. And he's laid out a plan that I think meets all the standards of past hearings and could be done before Election Day. If for some reason it's not done, we'll do it after Election Day, but I think we're likely to get this done sometime in the month of October.
CHUCK TODD:
You have no, you have no qualms about doing this before the election? You’ve seen polling is pretty overwhelming on this issue. A large majority of the American public do not believe this president should pick this, this president before the election should make this pick, it should be whoever wins the election. That is not an unreasonable thing for the American public to think, is it not?
SEN. ROY BLUNT:
Well, it may not be unreasonable, but the Constitution sets up two standards to get on the court. One is the president has to make a nomination and two is that you have to have a Senate that will accept that nomination and agree with that nomination. And there have been 15 times in the history of the country when there's been a justice, a vacancy in an election year. And when the president and the Senate were in political agreement, they almost always fulfilled the two obligations. And if they weren't, they almost never did. So, what would the deadline be? The president -- I said when President Obama made his nomination that not only would he want to make a nomination, but he was probably constitutionally obligated to make an obligation. And the other half of that necessary formula just wasn't there to get that done, and now it is there.
CHUCK TODD:
Do you regret the hypocritical argument you guys made four years ago, creating this, this sort of standard out of thin air, and then backtracking on it four years later. And I know you guys came up with these footnotes that says it depends on who controls the Senate -- Senator Blunt, nobody made those footnotes in 2016. It was crystal clear to the American public what your views are. Are you concerned that the party looks like a bunch of hypocrites, four weeks before the election on this issue?
SEN. ROY BLUNT:
Well, I don't know. The voters will have to look at that and decide. I said a number of times in 2016 exactly what I just said to you -- that the two things had to be in agreement for this to happen and when they weren't in agreement, then voters get a chance to weigh in and give as much direction as they want to. And in 2016, they retained a Republican majority in the Senate. In 2018, after two Supreme Court nominations, they increased that majority in the Senate. And I don't know that we can make this decision or should -- I know we shouldn't make it based on the politics of it, but what our job is and if we're in agreement in getting that job done.
CHUCK TODD:
The president has made election disputes one of the rationales for why this, why she needs to be rushed onto the court. Does this not put her in a position to look like the court’s being politicized? Again, this -- the way this is being orchestrated, the way the president's talking, it's it's -- could end up delegitimizing the court in the eyes of the public. Are you concerned about that -- particularly the president's comments?
SEN. ROY BLUNT:
Well, I don't know that's a reason for her to go on the court. I think there are lots of reasons for her to go on the court. I'm eager to vote for her. She was on my shortlist the last time of people that I would hope the president might have nominated and I'm eager for that to happen. I am concerned, Chuck, about this idea that somehow the election won't be fair. I think the election may be complicated. I talked about this on the floor of the Senate last week. I said the best place to cast a ballot is at the polling place on Election Day. You have all the information. You know, if you voted two weeks ago, you wouldn't have been thinking about this particular circumstance right now, but you have all the information, you vote, you watch your ballot go into a counting system that you're pretty sure of. Then I said, but if you don't want to do it that way, you should take advantage of all the other opportunities to vote, but we really should remember the other opportunities are a little more complicated, and there are always questions about absentee ballots. Did you sign the envelope? Is the postmark correct? I think we're going to see litigation, and to some extent, the Electoral College will help us once again, and it will take most of the states off the table election night. And maybe a handful of states, we're going to have a fight about when ballots came in and whether they should be counted and whether the signature was necessary. And I'm eager for the country to work its way through that. If the president's reelected, he'll be sworn in on January the 20th. If Vice President Biden's elected, he'll be sworn in on January the 20th. At this point, I'm chairing the inauguration, and I look forward to seeing that happen.
CHUCK TODD:
Look, you seem to indicate that you believe the voting’s going to be fair. You said it's going to be complicated. The president does not say those things. Are you concerned he has undermined the legitimacy of the election, in the eyes of some?
SEN. ROY BLUNT:
Well, I hope not. And I've actually passed my views on this along to the White House. I think we need to encourage our voters to vote, just like the Democrats need to encourage their voters to vote. But voters should also understand that if you make the voting by mail or absentee ballot choice, it's just a little harder than going to the polling place on Election Day, and always some percentage of those ballots are argued about if any election is close, whether it's city council --
CHUCK TODD:
Okay.
SEN. ROY BLUNT
-- or the electoral vote in a state.
CHUCK TODD:
Senator, I want to actually go back to a couple of issues that may be impacted due to the Supreme Court. And that is the issue of abortion rights and the issue of the Affordable Care Act. Is it your hope that if Justice Barrett -- if Judge Barrett becomes Justice Barrett -- that it leads to the overturn, the ruling of the Affordable Care Act as unconstitutional?
SEN. ROY BLUNT:
No, that's not my hope. My hope is that on any case she deals with, she looks at the facts of the case, applies it to the Constitution and the law, and then makes a decision. And I don't know how you can predict any of that in advance.
CHUCK TODD:
Do you want to see the Affordable Care Act ruled unconstitutional and totally thrown out?
SEN. ROY BLUNT:
Well, if it is thrown out, it will be months from the time the court hears it. We'll have time to think about that argument and to do something about it. I think a lot of the Affordable Care Act is now baked into the system. The one provision in the Affordable Care Act that I authored, so we filed about nine or ten bills, was keeping people on insurance, their parents' insurance until they're 26 -- sure don't see that being reversed. I don't see preexisting conditions being protected being reversed. No matter what the court decides, a lot of that discussion has already been had. The American people have accepted that as a basic part of the ongoing system. And we'll have that happen.
CHUCK TODD:
Well, but if they throw out the law, it doesn't, it doesn’t matter, you guys have to pass a new one. Very quickly, you guys are rushing to confirm a Supreme Court justice. Where's the urgency on virus relief?
SEN. ROY BLUNT:
Well, let me say on if they throw out the law -- a November hearing doesn't throw out the law. They won't do that until sometime in the late, late spring or early summer before you even know what their ruling is. And we'll have time to deal with this. On virus relief, I think we're doing some really innovative things. There are going to be as many tests produced in October as people have taken up until now -- about a million and a half -- 150 million tests produced in October, more testing, vaccines that work. We're --
CHUCK TODD:
But no virus relief --
SEN. ROY BLUNT:
-- moving forward --
CHUCK TODD:
-- from Congress?
SEN. ROY BLUNT:
--with vaccines.
CHUCK TODD:
But no relief from Congress?
SEN. ROY BLUNT:
Oh, on COVID, I think, I think that is a huge mistake, Chuck. I think to get back to school, to get back to work, to get back to better health, we need a bill. We're in very near agreement on all the COVID things that matter. What we're not in agreement on is about $1 trillion worth of other things.
CHUCK TODD:
Senator Roy Blunt, Republican from Missouri, I appreciate you coming on and sharing your perspective with us, sir. Thank you.
SEN. ROY BLUNT:
Great to be with you. Thank you.
CHUCK TODD:
Let me bring in Democratic Senator Cory Booker of New Jersey. He is a member of the Judiciary Committee. Senator Booker, welcome back to Meet the Press.
SEN. CORY BOOKER:
Thank you.
CHUCK TODD:
I want to start, obviously, with the nomination of Judge Barrett. And I guess the question is what is, it's the question that I've been getting, is how are Democrats going to confront this nominee? Are you going to confront on the issues that are at stake or are you going to go after the process? There's been some talk, for instance, of boycotting the confirmation hearings. Where are the Democrats going here, sir?
SEN. CORY BOOKER:
Well, I think the Democrats and two Republicans are with the American people. First of all, the process is not legitimate. As Susan Collins herself said, "Fair is fair." They articulated the process for President Obama. Now they're doing the exact opposite under President Trump. It's not fair. It's wrong and it delegitimizes the Court. In addition to that, it's actually during an election. We have people starting to vote already. And the majority of the American people are with the Democrats and two Republicans who all believe this should be waiting until after the election. And then finally, you said it. Not only is the process illegitimate and should be called into question, but unfortunately, what's at stake here is stunning. I'm surprised, frankly, that you could keep a straight face. You know that this is about the Affordable Care Act. You know that this court Amy Coney - and what President Trump's nominee has put up is that she will tear down the Affordable Care Act. That she's written about that. This is part of his litmus test. And unfortunately, Americans are about to see a Supreme Court that's going to turn against a law that has provided really basic protections that the majority of Americans really want. So this is about high stakes, what's at stake, the right to control your own body, organizing -- the right to be organized into a union, and it's also about a process that undermines the legitimacy of the very court that is critical especially right now during a pandemic --
CHUCK TODD:
Right.
SEN. CORY BOOKER:
-- and during it seems like a crisis that this president's going to precipitate after this election.
CHUCK TODD:
Let me ask about process here for a minute. In 2016, you had said this. "The Senate has no excuse to ignore, blockade or stonewall consideration of this nominee. The Senate must do its job to provide advice and consent and swiftly schedule hearings, debate and an up or down vote." Here's the question I have. Which precedent should be, which should be the precedent? The ones that Republicans invented in '16 or the ones they're inventing now?
SEN. CORY BOOKER:
Well, I guess you asked the same question I asked to Lindsey Graham and to Republicans is which precedent do you really believe in because you can't say one thing and then do another. Barack Obama was putting up a nominee 269 days before an election. 269 days. And now, we see Donald Trump doing it while people are voting, in the midst of an election. We clearly see -- the Republicans have shown the height of hypocrisy in what they're doing. As I said, even two of their members have said, "This is not fair. This is wrong. And we should not do it."
CHUCK TODD:
What is your --
SEN. CORY BOOKER:
This is really a stunning --
CHUCK TODD:
What do you believe?
SEN. CORY BOOKER:
-- moment in American history.
CHUCK TODD:
Forget the -- what do you believe should be the precedent though?
SEN. CORY BOOKER:
I think that if, whether it was a Republican president or a Democratic president when 269 days before an election, there should most certainly be enough time for a hearing in Congress, enough time to get this done. I think what was done to Merrick Garland --
CHUCK TODD:
Well, is there a line? Is there a line you would draw? Is there a line you would draw to say, "You know, after when"? I mean, you know, this does seem very subjective.
SEN. CORY BOOKER:
Yeah clearly, I don't think it's subjective at all. I think if voting has started and if you're just a matter of weeks, I think that that's too soon. Lincoln had a similar circumstance where it was days before an election and he did not put a nominee up. This is too short. You see the majority of the American people, over 70 percent, just think, "Wait a minute. Just wait. Timeout. Wait until we've had a chance to vote on our health care. Wait until the chance we've had a vote on keeping Roe v. Wade. Wait until the chance we've had a vote on union rights."
CHUCK TODD:
Right.
SEN. CORY BOOKER:
These are the kind of things that I think common sense, you really see the majority of the American people coming down on common sense. And this is the thing that frustrates me now, in the midst of a pandemic, is a lot of people are afraid now about what Donald Trump is doing. He's injecting fear into this about people losing their health care, which is a clear and present danger during a pandemic.
CHUCK TODD:
Yeah.
SEN. CORY BOOKER:
As he moves somebody who's written about this and talked about this. And then there's another clear and present danger I think, a lot of us feel, fear, which is a president that has said that he's not going to honor the peaceful transition of power. That is a stunning statement. It's a betrayal of your oath to defend the Constitution --
CHUCK TODD:
Do you --
SEN. CORY BOOKER:
-- and the United States of American. It’s such an anti-democratic thing to say.
CHUCK TODD:
Senator, do you plan to meet with Judge Barrett?
SEN. CORY BOOKER:
It's my intention to do so. I think you know my spirit, which is to sit down and meet with people and talk to them. And I'm going to make it very clear. One of the things I want to ask her is will she recuse herself because if she does not -- in terms of any election issues that come before us, because if she does not recuse herself, I fear that the Court will be further delegitimized. In other words, President Trump has said, "I will not accept the results of the election unless I win. I'm going to push it to the Supreme Court. And oh, by the way --
CHUCK TODD:
Yeah.
SEN. CORY BOOKER:
-- during the election I'm going to put somebody on the Court as well." So I hope to have a conversation with her. And I'm blessed to be on the Judiciary Committee, and I'll have that as well. And hopefully --
CHUCK TODD:
Okay.
SEN. CORY BOOKER:
--have a good, informed dialogue back and forth. But my larger hope is is that the Republican party realizes they're undermining their legitimacy --
CHUCK TODD:
Okay.
SEN. CORY BOOKER:
-- the legitimacy of the Supreme Court and that they stop what they're doing and wait until the American public has spoken in this election.
CHUCK TODD:
Finally, I want to ask you about the debate on Tuesday night but first I want to play a clip of you, and Joe Biden from the debates in the primaries. A quick, quick reminder.
[BEGIN TAPE]
SEN. CORY BOOKER:
I put forth national standard setting accountability. Mr. Vice President, Mr. Vice President I didn't interrupt you. Please show me that respect, sir. We have a system right now that's broken. And if you want to compare records and frankly, I'm shocked that you do, I am happy to do that.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
I put it up there for this reason, senator. You, you got the best of him quite a few times. Now obviously, the scoreboard’s the scoreboard. We know who won the nomination. But what, what advice would you have for the former vice president going into Tuesday?
SEN. CORY BOOKER:
Well you say I got the best of him. I say I saw the best of him. You know after that exchange in the back room, I saw grace in him and backstage during a commercial where he came up to me and showed me the goodness and the decency that's in his heart and actually extended to me some of the best compliments I've ever gotten from a statesperson in my party. I just love the guy, and you -- moments like that don't build character, they show it. And I just think that Joe Biden has a chance to just lay his truth, his spirit, his character in front of the American people next to a person that even people within his own party -- you saw it this week -- can't defend his character, can't stand up for his lies, see him as a danger, even members of his Cabinet like the great General Mattis have said this guy is a threat to our democracy. Well General Mattis’ words really were prescient compared to what's happened this week where he has menaced our democracy. So I just want Joe Biden to go out there and be himself. I have a lot of faith that the American public will see his spirit and know that he'll bring honor back to that office.
CHUCK TODD:
Senator Cory Booker, Democrat from New Jersey, appreciate you coming on and sharing your perspective with us, sir. Thank you.
SEN. CORY BOOKER:
Thank you very much.
CHUCK TODD:
And when we come back, the growing debate in the military about its role if a disputed election leads to civil unrest. President Trump's former national security advisor, retired Lieutenant General H.R. McMaster joins me next.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. Senior Pentagon officials have gone public about the military's role in a disputed election. With repeated cases of civil unrest since May, the officials have been talking amongst themselves about what to do if the president invokes the Insurrection Act, which would give him broad authority to order the military to get involved in domestic disputes. Joining me now is the president's former national security advisor, he's also retired Lieutenant General H.R. McMaster. He's the author of the new book “Battlegrounds: The Fight to Defend the Free World.” General McMaster, welcome back to Meet the Press, sir.
LT. GEN. H.R. McMASTER:
Chuck, it's great to be with you.
CHUCK TODD:
I want to start with these reports. We've had our own reporting here at NBC News, The New York Times, I'm sure you're familiar with both of them, that there's been a bit of hand-wringing among senior leadership in the military about “what if?” and the fact that the president did bring up the Insurrection Act once already. What can you share and what concerns do you have?
LT. GEN. H.R. McMASTER:
Well, Chuck, I think what's really clear for the American people to understand is the military will have no role in a transition. In fact, even talking about it, I think, is irresponsible. And that's maybe why, if you detect some reticence on the part of senior military leaders or those in the Pentagon to talk about it, it's because it shouldn't even be a topic for discussion. You know, our founders were very concerned about this, Chuck. You know, I think it's important to remember that George Washington's grandparents fled the bloody wars of the 17th century in England. And, of course, it was the specter of Oliver Cromwell that was very much on their minds --
CHUCK TODD:Right.
LT. GEN. H.R. McMASTER:
-- as they crafted our Constitution and the separation of powers and that very bold line between the military and politics.
CHUCK TODD:
What did you -- what went through your head on June 1st when you saw what happened at Lafayette Square?
LT. GEN. H.R. McMASTER:
Well, it was just wrong. It was, you know, more than unfortunate because what we can't do -- and this is really across the political spectrum, Chuck, which really bothers me these days -- we can't try to pull the military into politics. Some of the things the president said I think have been irresponsible. But often times, the reaction to what he says is equally irresponsible. So I think all politicians have a responsibility of keeping that bold line in place. Certainly, the military profession does as well -- to be studiously apolitical -- so all Americans have confidence in our military institutions and that also there's never any infringement on our democratic principles and institutions and processes.
CHUCK TODD:
I'm curious, when you hear the president muse about not necessarily agreeing to a peaceful transition of power, take us back. I mean, how did you interpret that? You were in the room with him. You've probably heard him say some things that would shock people. How did you interpret those comments, knowing him the way you do?
LT. GEN. H.R. McMASTER:
Well, what I think is that it's a gift to our adversaries, right, who want to shake our confidence in who we are. Shake our confidence in our democratic principles and institutions and processes. What I write about in “Battlegrounds” is how Russia, for example, has engaged in this campaign of disruption, disinformation and denial. And if the Russians can just use our own words against us, that's the best way to pull us apart from one another.
CHUCK TODD:
The biggest problem, though, in the Russia conversation has been the president himself. You know, he still calls it a hoax and all of that. And you write, and I think Susan Rice, a predecessor who was national security advisor in -- for President Obama, wrote that this political division should be treated as a national security threat. Do you agree with her?
LT. GEN. H.R. McMASTER:
I absolutely agree with her. And this is why I think it's so important for us to come together for civil discussions about the greatest challenges we face. Maybe that's a way for us to come back together as Americans because, as we're at each other's throats with this vitriolic partisan discourse, our adversaries haven't stopped, right? The world hasn't gone away. And that's what I hope will help galvanize us to come back together and to reverse this polarization that's so damaging to our security and our psyche as well.
CHUCK TODD:
Let me ask this, one more question on this. When you were -- if you made an attempt to get the president not to say divisive things, how would that go?
LT. GEN. H.R. McMASTER:
Well, Chuck, I can only speak for when I was there, right? My job was to give the president access to the best analysis across the government and then to give the president options. And then once he made decisions, to assist with the sensible implementation of those decisions. I mean, those discussions were wide ranging and, often times, you know, the president evolved his assessment of situations. And I think, in many cases, made decisions on foreign policy -- which was my area, not domestic politics -- he made decisions that advanced our interests and, in many cases, put in place big shifts in our foreign policy that were long overdue.
CHUCK TODD:
Did it surprise you that there wasn't a better handling of this pandemic? When you were there, you had a pandemic team on the National Security Council. Were you surprised at the response, given the preparations that maybe you had been familiar with?
LT. GEN. H.R. McMASTER:
Well, I think that what we saw is a breakdown in a couple of areas, right? There are three keys to pandemic response. One is, like, stop it before it becomes a pandemic. Well, thanks to the Chinese Communist Party, we couldn't do that. The second is to mobilize a biomedical response. We see that we were hamstrung in that because, you know, over the years our supply chains became too vulnerable, there was just in time delivery, not enough stockpiles. And then the third area is to innovate and develop rapidly therapies and vaccines. I think that third area is going to be a success. Now, what we ought to learn from this, Chuck, is hey, we have a federal system and also we have a mixture of public and private health care. And I think where there were breakdowns, it was in coordination. It was in common understanding of the resources available, where the gaps were and how to mobilize a response effectively. We have a team here at the Hoover Institution, we're working on that with some amazing grad students to interview everybody who was at different points of this crisis. And to identify the lessons and make recommendations in advance of a second wave or the next biomedical crisis.
CHUCK TODD:
It's hard to say the word "China" very quickly. But I'm going to ask you to do it this way. Are they a competitor? Are they somebody we have to confront? Are they an enemy? How would you define them?
LT. GEN. H.R. McMASTER:
They're a rival. And we must compete with the Chinese Communist Party because the Chinese Communist Party now is not only stifling the freedom of their own people, they're exporting their authoritarian mercantilist model. And if they succeed, the world will be less free, less safe and less prosperous.
CHUCK TODD:
Retired General H.R. McMaster, really appreciate you coming on, sharing your perspective, former national security advisor to the president. Good luck with your book.
LT. GEN. H.R. McMASTER:
Chuck, thanks so much.
CHUCK TODD:
You got it. When we come back, Republicans believe a fight over the court allows them to steer the conversation away from the pandemic and the president's unpredictable attacks. Are they right? The panel is next.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. Panel is here. Yamiche Alcindor, White House correspondent for PBS NewsHour; Lanhee Chen of the Hoover Institution at Stanford University; former Democratic Senator Claire McCaskill of Missouri; and Peter Baker, chief White House correspondent for the New York Times and co-author of a book that a bunch of us knew needed to be written. It's the big biography of James Baker. It is fantastic. Congratulations to you and Susan, Peter, with that. So welcome to all of you. But Peter, despite me helping you sell that book, I'm going to Claire McCaskill first. Claire McCaskill, answer the question that I've been getting for the last week. What can Democrats do about this confirmation fight and what, and what should they do?
CLAIRE MCCASKILL:
Well, I think the most important fact is this is an abuse of power over a thick layer of hypocrisy. Not a good look six weeks before the election. They need to treat the nominee with respect, but point out that the nomination is abusive. And then they need to really just focus on health care, and civil rights, voting rights, women's rights. This is an extreme candidate that never would have been nominated before 2017 because it would have been obvious she couldn't get 70 votes -- 60 votes. So I just think they've got to focus on the policy and treat her with respect and make sure the hearings don't turn into a partisan circus.
CHUCK TODD:
Lanhee Chen, can this confirmation hearing become a benefit to the president without it becoming a partisan food fight?
LANHEE CHEN:
I think it could be a benefit to the president. I think certainly the big question here is how does this play for - not base voters, we know base voters are going to get very excited about this nomination. The question is for those who remain undecided. Look, Republicans and conservatives are on the cusp of remaking the Supreme Court for the next several decades. It's a momentous occasion. The president, in that sense, needs to focus on this nomination, focus on what it means rather than getting into all this other junk about, you know, not potentially having a safe transition of power, really focusing on the nomination and what it means. That is going to be his best shot to get a political advantage out of this.
CHUCK TODD:
You know, Yamiche, Democrats have public opinion on their side. In our new Michigan and Wisconsin polls, we asked the court question. Should the vacancy be filled immediately, post-election or post-inauguration? Majorities in both states say post-inauguration. It matches some national polls that we've seen. But it is one of these things that, Yamiche, the Democrats have public opinion on their side, but it's not the first time they've had public opinion on their side, but they're kind of powerless here.
YAMICHE ALCINDOR:
They are kind of powerless. And when I talk to Democratic sources, the only thing that they can say is that they hope to slow down the nomination. But yesterday I was at the White House's rollout of Judge Barrett and the White House Chief of Staff, Mark Meadows, said very clearly he hopes to proceed with this expeditiously, he hopes to get this done by November 1st. So it's very clear that President Trump really has no way to have any sort of roadblocks ahead of him when he looks at this nomination. And I think Republicans here are feeling very confident in the idea that this will help bolster and really excite the base to try to get people excited about President Trump.
CHUCK TODD:
Peter Baker, I guess is the conventional wisdom on this one correct? I know that we're all looking at past results here and, yes, the Republicans unite on judicial issues more quickly and more often than Democrats do. Is this one going to play out the same way?
PETER BAKER:
Well, look, I think you presume that Republican voters have been, to some extent, disenchanted with the president and so he's giving them a reason to put aside their misgivings about things like the coronavirus and other issues and come back to the fold. Democratic voters are already energized against President Trump and the question is whether or not this would energize them any more. I think the other thing that's important for President Trump is that every day we're talking about this, we're not talking about the virus. That's not a political winner for him. 200,000 dead this week and he basically shrugged it off without giving any kind of memorial, tribute, testament to the people. I'm also thinking back today, Chuck, to the first time a Republican nominated a woman to be the Supreme Court justice. Remember, this is only the second time a Republican has ever nominated a woman to the Supreme Court. That was Ronald Reagan, with Jim Baker's help back in 1981. And that nomination was Sandra Day O'Connor, and Jim Baker steered Ronald Reagan toward a more moderate choice because it was seen as the safe thing. Today, the motivations have changed. The incentive structure has changed.
CHUCK TODD:
That’s so true.
PETER BAKER:
The president is going with the most ideological candidate on his list rather than the least ideological candidate.
CHUCK TODD:
Claire McCaskill, the history of 2018 elections continue to get written. Did Brett Kavanaugh help or hurt? Or was this one of those unique situations that it may have hurt the Republicans nationally, but helped them in places like Missouri?
CLAIRE MCCASKILL:
I think that's probably true. I think what really hurt about Kavanaugh was the process. It really devolved into something that most people around the country said, "You know, pox on all their house. This is a mess." And I think that was particularly because of the facts and circumstances of that particular nomination. I actually think this nomination hurts the Republicans because of the hypocrisy and abuse of power. The American people know what's going on here. And you combine that with her very extreme views on health care, her very extreme views on -- I mean, she's written in a dissent that felons should be entitled to a gun, but not necessarily entitled to vote. I mean, this is really somebody who's out there. And I think if that is exposed in the hearings in a respectful way, I think it helps the Democrats even more.
CHUCK TODD:
Lanhee Chen, I mean, could this backfire? I mean, what are you more concerned about for Republican Senate races? Is it the hypocrisy watch? You know, you flip-flop where you were in '16 and this? Or is it abortion rights and that suddenly the popularity of Roe v. Wade actually ends up hurting Republicans?
LANHEE CHEN:
Well, I think health care is the bigger concern here. And even though I'm skeptical that the ACA gets struck down even with this new conservative majority, I think health care is a topic -- look, you talked about 2018 midterms. That was not a great topic for Republicans in 2018. The more the battleground shifts to that conversation about health care, I think the tougher it is for Republicans. So the challenge with this is if this court fight gets defined in terms of health care issues, perhaps potentially in terms of abortion, I do think it ends up being more of a challenge for Republicans.
CHUCK TODD:
Yamiche Alcindor, there was a lot of concern about how Democrats managed the Kavanaugh hearings the last time, or Democratic leadership. Are you hearing anything this time?
YAMICHE ALCINDOR:
I'm not hearing that. What I'm hearing is that they feel like they need to be making the case more clearly why judicial nominees, and why the Supreme Court is a key thing that should be on Democratic minds. If you look back to the Democratic National Convention, there wasn't a lot of talk about the Supreme Court. Republicans historically have been the ones talking about judicial nominees and judges more. And I think this shows that Democrats need to be talking about that, based on my sources talking to me about the fact that they need to be making it clearer to Democrats what a Supreme Court conservative majority means for their personal lives.
CHUCK TODD:
Yamiche, Lanhee, Peter and Claire, stick around. Coming up next, when we come back, President Trump busted through the Democrats' big blue wall in 2016, but did that have more to do with Hillary Clinton than it did with Donald Trump?
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. Data Download time. As we mentioned at the top of the show, Joe Biden is currently beating President Trump in our latest NBC News/Marist polling in both Wisconsin and Michigan. And he's doing so by comfortable margins. But those are two of the three states that President Trump flipped for the first time in a generation. So it made us wonder, why is President Trump having such a difficult time in the polls in these states compared to four years ago? Well, 2012 may actually offer some clues. In 2012, Democrats carried all of those states by five or more percentage points. In 2016, when President Trump flipped them, the margin was very close, .2 in Michigan, .7 in Pennsylvania, and .8 in Wisconsin. Those numbers, at face value, suggest a Republican erasing the historic Democratic edge in the Great Lakes region, or do they? Take a look at the percentage of the vote President Trump got in those three states compared with Mitt Romney in 2012. Mr. Trump got 2 percentage points more of the vote than Romney in Michigan and just one point more in Pennsylvania and Wisconsin. So, to put it another way, in each state candidate Trump's improvement over candidate Romney accounted for less than a quarter of the total swing. He benefited from those third party votes. And the current FiveThirtyEight polling averages in those states look a lot more like 2012 than they do 2016. In Michigan, Biden is leading Mr. Trump 50 to 43. In Pennsylvania, he's up 50 to 45. And in Wisconsin, it's Biden again at the 50 percent mark, with President Trump at 44 percent. And Mr. Trump's current percentages in those states, they're almost exactly what Mitt Romney got in 2012. Look, President Trump was right to get credit for breaking through that big blue wall, but right now, 2020 poll numbers look a lot more like Obama's win in 2012 than Hillary Clinton's loss in 2016. When we come back, Biden's lead in the polls has been stable for months. Can President Trump change that in Cleveland on Tuesday night?
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. Tuesday is the first presidential debate. Peter Baker, one of the findings we found in our polling about the presidential debates this year, I'm going to put it up, is how little importance it is to voters this cycle as compared to previous. We recorded the lowest ever number on the question of how important are the presidential debates to your vote. Less than 30 percent said it was extremely or quite important this year. In 2016, it was 34 percent; 2012, it was 38 percent. When you have 90 percent of people saying they've made up their mind, perhaps we do understand that, but Peter, what do you think the significance is of Tuesday night?
PETER BAKER:
Well, I think you're right, Chuck. I think the electorate has made up its mind, most of it, and they are pretty locked in. They've been pretty locked in really for four years. Americans have decided long ago what they think of Donald Trump. They like him or hate him. And that hasn't really changed. And we haven't seen that with any other president in modern times. Those numbers have remained remarkably static. So, yes, this debate on Tuesday night is important. It's one of the only opportunities for that to change potentially. You see the president already trying to set up expectations. He already tweeted this morning saying that Joe Biden should take a drug test. He's trying to explain a good performance by Joe Biden in advance by saying, "Well, if he's doing well, it must be because he's somehow on performance drugs." It's a pretty extraordinary thing. He tried the same thing with Hillary Clinton four years ago. But remember, incumbent presidents don't tend to do well in their first debate. They don't take it seriously, they are overconfident. That's certainly what happened with Ronald Reagan in 1984 when Jim Baker was running his campaign, I remember it. We will tell that story in our book. It happened with Barack Obama and George W. Bush. And this is a president who famously is not preparing for this debate. He's told aides he doesn't need to prepare, so we'll see what happens, but yes, I think you're right. I think this is one chance to change things, but things have been remarkably static.
CHUCK TODD:
Claire McCaskill, your advice to Joe Biden after reading this Washington Post story about the debates? "Trump has told associates he wants to talk specifically about his opponent's son, Hunter Biden, and mused that the debates are when people will finally realize Biden is just not there, according to one adviser. The president is so eager to lay into his rival that he has called aides to test out various attacks." I think we know what's coming. It's an onslaught. It's a rhetorical onslaught. We've seen him do it before. How should Biden handle it?
CLAIRE MCCASKILL:
Well, first of all, Trump has done him a big favor by lowering expectations. You always want low expectations going into a debate, and Trump has delivered that to Biden. And Biden is going to have a challenge to make sure he focuses on tone, not content. This is going to be the American people looking at two men. One is making outrageous, nut-ball claims about Biden using performance-enhancing drugs, is going to attack him personally, going to be a bully and ugly and bizarre. And the other one is going to be like a normal guy who wants to lead our country with unity and integrity. I think this is all about tone. And if Biden can stay focused on his tone, I think he'll win the debates decisively.
CHUCK TODD:
Lanhee, I know what you would advise President Trump to do, down by five to ten points nationally, depending on what you believe, but he's not going to follow that advice. How does he prevent this debate from, I think, getting derailed or him derailing it?
LANHEE CHEN:
Look, I'm going to come back to the fact that the president's strong suit in every single poll, including the one that NBC News has put out today, is the economy. People perceive him as being stronger on the economy. I know it's a little old-fashioned of me to say, but if the president can actually focus on that issue, if he can talk about the economy, what he plans to do, that is really the pathway forward for making sure that this is an opportunity for him. Very few voters are undecided. We see that. 4 percent in Michigan, 2 percent in Wisconsin. To the extent that they are undecided though, that conversation about the economy is what is going to swing them. And I do think he needs to keep the pressure on Biden. I think that will work to his advantage because the Vice President hasn't been in very many high-pressure situations in the last couple of months.
CHUCK TODD:
You know, Yamiche, I think that the question is can Biden stay focused. So, for instance, this issue with the president and the peaceful transition of power, on one hand, do they want that to be half the debate or do they want instead to be focused on the Affordable Care Act?
YAMICHE ALCINDOR:
Based on my conversations with people in the Biden campaign, the former vice president's going to really want to be focused on the coronavirus. Part of that will be on health care and people's access to it, but a lot of it's going to be on the president and what they see as the president's failure to protect the country from this pandemic and a failure to see and to acknowledge it. And Joe Biden's going to be talking about the president admitting to Bob Woodward that he downplayed the virus, the danger of it, in order to, quote, "not create a panic." I think President Trump though is going to derail this debate in some ways just in the fact that he's going to continue to have personal attacks on Joe Biden. And the thing that Biden donors, as well as Claire McCaskill and so many others, are really thinking is can Joe Biden not lose it and when someone starts going after his son, can he make sure not to get too angry, not to have a gaff when President Trump goes that ugly way and starts to really get at him.
CHUCK TODD:
Peter Baker, toward the end of your book you make it clear Jim Baker at first says he's definitely going to vote for the president and then he doesn't respond to your question. Is there anything that's said at this debate that would flip Jim Baker away from Trump?
PETER BAKER:
That's a great question. Jim Baker does not think much of Donald Trump. Jim Baker is the un-Trump in so many ways. His whole career was about, you know, a seriousness, a purpose, integrity, decency, dignity, and yet he cannot break himself. He won't endorse Trump, but he has yet to vote against him. And I think that that talks about the moderate Republican party trying to accommodate themselves to this person who has basically effected a hostile takeover of their party.
CHUCK TODD:
Get Peter and Susan's book, anyway. Thank you, all. You guys were a terrific panel and it was great to be back in the studio. But before we say goodbye, a quick programming note this week. We're excited to say that we debuted Meet the Press Reports on NBC News Now and on demand on Peacock each week. For 30 minutes, we'll do a deep dive into a single topic and this week we explored how to win a presidential debate with more than a dozen experts involved from both parties that have been involved in presidential debate prep for over four decades. You can watch this right now on Peacock, along with full episodes of this show, Meet the Press. That's all for today. Thanks for watching. We'll be back next week because if it's Sunday, it's Meet the Press.