CHUCK TODD:
This Sunday: Vote Watch.
PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
They're trying to steal the election from the Republicans.
CHUCK TODD:
With a pandemic leading to more people preparing to vote by mail than ever before --
PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
You won't know the election results for weeks, months, maybe years after.
CHUCK TODD:
-- President Trump steps up his fight against mail-in balloting --
PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
The Democrats are meddling by wanting and insisting on mail-in ballots when there's corruption all over the place.
CHUCK TODD:
-- despite a lack of evidence.
ELLEN WEINTRAUB:
Democrats have studied this. Republicans have studied this, and no one can find any evidence of rampant voter fraud.
CHUCK TODD:
Still, many are concerned.
RONALD WEMZEL:
If it's mail-in, I don't trust that at all.
REPORTER:
Do you have apprehensions about mail-in voting in this election in particular?
NICHOLAS HARTMAN:
I do.
CHUCK TODD:
Plus, worries over voting rights --
ANDREA HAILEY:
When voter suppression happens, it happens disproportionately in minority communities.
CHUCK TODD:
-- foreign meddling --
REP. JIM HIMES:
The Russians are not trying to interfere in the election of 2020, they are interfering.
CHUCK TODD:
-- and a weakened Postal Service.
LOUIS DEJOY:
The Postal Service is fully capable and committed to delivering the nation's ballots securely and on time.
CHUCK TODD:
Poll watchers, delayed results and conspiracy theories. This morning: How safe is your vote? Welcome to Sunday and a special Vote Watch edition of Meet the Press.
ANNOUNCER:
From NBC News in Washington, the longest-running show in television history. This is a special edition Meet the Press with Chuck Todd.
CHUCK TODD:
Good Sunday morning and a happy Labor Day weekend to everyone. Not only may this actually be the most important election in our lifetime, it certainly will be the most unusual or unlike any election in our lifetime. This year, because of the COVID-19 pandemic, for the first time a majority of Americans say they plan to vote early, and that has huge consequences. According to this week's NBC News/SurveyMonkey poll, 52 percent of Americans say they plan to vote early. Thirty-three percent of them by mail, 19 percent early in person. But there is a huge split between how Democrats and Republicans plan to vote: Fifty-four percent of those who lean Republican plan to vote on Election Day in-person while among those who lean Democratic, 71 percent plan to vote by mail or early in-person. That is all but certain to lead to an Election Night in which President Trump may appear to be leading because those Election Day votes are counted first and are Republican-leaning, only to fall behind Joe Biden in the following days and even weeks as mostly Democratic mail-in votes are counted. There are so many questions surrounding this election. Will President Trump declare victory on Election Night and insist that mail-in ballots counted afterwards are fraudulent? Will the Postal Service be able to get those ballots in on time? Will hurdles be put in place to make it more difficult for Black and Hispanic voters to get to the polls? How many mail-in ballots will be disqualified, and why? And could weeks of legal challenges make 2000 and its hanging chads seem simple and quaint? Those are just some of the issues we’re trying to deal with all this week on Vote Watch on NBC News and MSNBC, starting with this special edition of Meet the Press. And we're going to begin with the crush of expected mail-in votes and an election the likes of which we have never seen.
JOE BIDEN:
It's my greatest concern, my single greatest concern. This president is going to try to steal this election.
PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
They're trying to steal the election from the Republicans.
CHUCK TODD:
The stakes could not be higher as the two parties clash over how to conduct an election in the middle of a global health crisis. More than 190 million Americans in 44 states are eligible to cast a vote by mail without an excuse beyond the coronavirus. In 2016, 33 million voters, or about one quarter, voted by mail. This time it could be more than twice that number. For months the president has engaged in a campaign against mail-in voting, though he is voting by mail himself, to delegitimize the results of the election if he loses.
PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
Voting by mail is wrought with fraud and abuse. If you do universal mail-ins with millions and millions of ballots, you are never going to know what the real result of an election is. I don’t like this mail-in ballot deal.
CHUCK TODD:
A Washington Post analysis found just 372 cases of voter fraud out of 14.6 million votes cast by mail in the 2016 and 2018 elections alone.
ELLEN WEINTRAUB:
Academics have studied this. Lawyers have studied this. The government has studied this. Democrats have studied this. Republicans have studied this, and no one can find any evidence of rampant voter fraud.
CHUCK TODD:
The president's fear of mail-in voting may be rooted in the 2016 election, when he over-performed on Election Day in key battleground states. In Florida, for instance, Hillary Clinton led before Election Day by 247,000 votes. Trump won Election Day voters by 360,000 and won the state. In the fight over mail-in voting the Postal Service has become a flashpoint after an urgent warning last month to dozens of states that it cannot guarantee all mail-in ballots will be counted. Postmaster General Louis DeJoy backtracked before Congress.
LOUIS DEJOY:
The Postal Service is fully capable and committed to delivering the nation’s ballots securely and on time.
REP. STEPHEN LYNCH:
Will you put the high-speed machines back?
LOUIS DEJOY:
No, I will not.
REP. STEPHEN LYNCH:
You will not?
LOUIS DEJOY:
Will not.
REP. STEPHEN LYNCH:
You will not. Well, there you go.
LOUIS DEJOY:
There I go, what?
CHUCK TODD:
The chaotic primary cycle has exposed problems that are warning signs for November:
SURAJ PATEL:
It was just a complete mess of a system.
CHUCK TODD:
It took Pennsylvania 28 days to count all its primary votes. In New York it was 42 days. And states like Wisconsin, Georgia and Texas were plagued by long lines at the polls, eleventh hour court rulings and failing voting machines.
BLAYNE ALEXANDER:
It is pouring out here. How long have you been waiting?
SECHITA McNAIR:
About three hours.
BLAYNE ALEXANDER:
You’ve been waiting here about three hours.
MARCIA SADBERRY:
We stood in line and we kept hearing, you know, ‘There’s machines coming.’ We didn’t know if things were broken. It made me think this is -- this must be what voter suppression looks like.
LISA POSTHUMUS LYONS:
If you have a 69, 70 percent voter turnout in our presidential election in November, that could take, that could take days.
CHUCK TODD:
And experts worry a long timeline could erode voter confidence in the election and become fertile ground for disinformation campaigns.
GARRETT HAAKE:
If the election results are close, will you trust them?
RONALD WEMZEL:
If it’s mail-in, I don’t trust that at all.
DAVID STERKEN:
I would like to say yes, but sometimes in the back of my mind, I don’t know.
CHUCK TODD:
And joining me now are two men who have represented their respective parties for years, and know as well as anyone what might, what we might expect this November. It's Democratic election lawyer Marc Elias and recently retired veteran Republican election lawyer Ben Ginsberg. And when we say “recent” with Ben, we mean this-past-week recent. So Ben, welcome to retirement, I guess. And welcome back--
BEN GINSBERG:
Thank you.
CHUCK TODD:
--to the show. Marc Elias, to both of you. Let me start with just doing the landscape of lawsuits as we stand right now. More than we've ever seen for one election cycle. Right now, the RNC is involved in 41 lawsuits in 19 states. The Democrats have 18 different lawsuits in 17 states. We know it's more than we've ever seen before. Yes, some of this is COVID-related. Marc Elias, since you're involved in many of these suits, let me start with you. Of all of these lawsuits that are out there, what are the one or two that you think most urgently need to be decided and resolved for us to understand what's going to happen in November?
MARC ELIAS:
Well, first of all, thank you, Chuck, for having me on. And Ben, congratulations on your retirement. I think that there are a few categories of lawsuits that need to be resolved and pretty quickly. The biggest ones have to do with the rules involving the processing of absentee ballots. Some states’ ballots have to be received by Election Day in order to count. Some, they simply have to be postmarked by Election Day to count. And late-received absentee ballots is one of the biggest reasons for rejections that we see in elections. We've been litigating to try to move states to the postmark by Election Day as a way to make sure that voters are disenfranchised due to delays in the Postal Service and the like. So I would say that that's among the most important cases that have to be resolved.
CHUCK TODD:
You know, Ben Ginsberg, this is the one of the phenomenons, in that not every state has the same rule when it comes to a postmark.
BEN GINSBERG:
Yes, it's one of the glories, it's one of the glories of the federalism that we practice here in the, in the country. I mean, what's true is a recognition that this is a different election because of COVID. But also a recognition that states and counties which do administer elections have safeguards in their laws to be sure that people can take credibility in the results of the election. And as your lead-in showed, there are questions about the credibility of the election results, which makes those safeguards in state laws important to be sure that they're in place and known.
CHUCK TODD:
Well, Ben, let me ask you the reverse of the question I asked Marc. What's the one or two lawsuits that you think that, particularly from the Republican side of the aisle, that you think are crucial?
BEN GINSBERG:
The results of absentee balloting and how those votes will be counted and a clear set of rules is right. So there are, again, the safeguards in state law to be sure that the person who cast the ballot really is the person who signed the envelope as well. It's important to have those rules down. The way ballots are going to be collected -- absentee ballots will be collected, is very important to have down. There's a phenomenon called ballot harvesting. There's a case up before the Supreme Court. Precisely who can get absentee ballots and turn them in needs to be known in each state.
CHUCK TODD:
Marc Elias, that has been a touchstone here. Who collects the ballots? Where do they get dropped off? And I know you're involved in a couple of these. What state or two do you believe this is most acute?
MARC ELIAS:
Yeah, so first of all the case that Ben mentioned is a case that I'm actually involved in litigating. And it helps illustrate I think part of what's at stake for democracy this fall. The case in Arizona, which is currently pending before the Supreme Court to see whether they'll hear the case, involved an Arizona legislative enactment that was brought after Shelby County, after the state was no longer subject to pre-clearance, and which the 9th Circuit found that the state banned third-party ballot collection as a way to intentionally discriminate against Latino voters. It wasn't an accident. It wasn't happenstance. The legislature in Arizona purposely passed a law to prevent third-party ballot collection to disenfranchise some voters. We know that Native American tribes around the country have similar concerns about bans on third-party ballot collection. But a lot of what we're seeing from the Republicans don't just deal with third-party ballot collection. They actually deal with states allowing drop boxes. The Trump campaign is suing Pennsylvania to prevent the state from using drop boxes. We've seen Republican secretaries of state in various, in various states, rather, prevent counties from trying to institute drop boxes.
CHUCK TODD:
Ben Ginsberg, what is the concern on the drop box? Is that just, is this just, “Look, let's find a technicality to complicate this process”? Or are there, is there real evidence of issues that your side's arguing?
BEN GINSBERG:
Well, the evidence -- if people have evidence of drop boxes being abused, then it should come forward with real specific instances. The theoretical problem with drop boxes is there are boxes sitting out there in public. And if there is a problem with who's collecting the ballots and whether in some states there are blank absentee ballots going out, that people can collect -- more than, person collect more than one and put in, that's a problem. But there are ways -- we are fortunately in Labor Day weekend, and there are ways to get adequate security around drop boxes.
CHUCK TODD:
Well, and there's cameras. I know that in Ohio they claim that they have 24-hour surveillance on that front. I want to shift to something that we may now see in North Carolina. And that is an attempt at double voting. And it may all be due to something the president said this week. Take a listen.
[BEGIN TAPE]
PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
So let them send it in. And let them go vote. And if their system's as good as they say it is, then obviously they won't be able to vote. If it isn't tabulated, they'll be able to vote. So that's the way it is. And that's what they should do. I don't like the idea of these unsolicited votes. I never did.
[END TAPE]
CHUCK TODD:
Ben Ginsberg, and I want to start with you on this, because -- Has the president undermined his own argument here by essentially endorsing attempted voter fraud?
BEN GINSBERG:
Well, the clip had some mangled syntax in it. But there are any number of states--
CHUCK TODD:
What’s new?
BEN GINSBERG:
--which do allow voters to vote absentee to be able to track their ballots and see if they're received or not and if they're declared valid by the local jurisdiction. If they're not, those states do have ways for people to go in and cure whatever happened to their absentee ballot in arriving. And you'll vote a provisional ballot or in some states you'll just void the absentee if it comes in. But there is a way to do that perfectly legitimately if your absentee ballot's not received.
CHUCK TODD:
You know, Marc Elias, could you see a scenario where essentially a state like North Carolina's flooded with basically people that wanted to be sure their vote was counted, voted, showed up twice, and only lengthening the amount of time it takes to even find out whose votes are legit or not?
MARC ELIAS:
Well, look, I hope, I hope the people of North Carolina don't follow what is really irresponsible advice from the president. And it's really shameful that he said what he did because the fact is, it's a felony in North Carolina to vote twice. And, you know, the attorney general said he needed to look up state law to see that, well, I'm here to tell him what the state law is. So it not only will slow up the process because those second votes will get caught. There won't be people who are, whose ballots are counted twice. But he's putting in jeopardy those individuals who may be listening to him and following this really, really irresponsible statement. But it could also gum up the works.
CHUCK TODD:
All right, let's talk about post Election Day and some of these nightmare scenarios. Ben, I'll start with you. You were involved in 2000. And then Marc, you've been involved in various recounts over the years, successful in most of them. So Ben, what is your nightmare scenario -- what are your nightmare scenarios here that you're most concerned about that you think viewers ought to be warned about?
BEN GINSBERG:
Well, 2020 will not be 2000. 2000 was the recount of one state under very tight deadlines, but that was met. What's different about 2020 is the onslaught of absentee ballots and the number of states that have extended the deadline for when those ballots can come in -- postmarked on Election Day, but when they can come in. That's putting a huge amount of faith in the Postal Service to deliver the ballots. So I guess my nightmare, nightmare scenario is there's a prolonged count because of all the absentee ballots. And then lo and behold, after whatever that deadline is in the state -- three days after the election, a week after the election -- a bunch of ballots come in that the post office just kind of lost. And so it's not the fault of the voter that those votes weren't counted. What do you do then? That bumps into the Electoral College deadlines.
CHUCK TODD:
Right. Marc Elias, what are your various nightmare scenarios that you think we ought to be prepping for?
MARC ELIAS:
So, a couple of things. First, you know, to Ben's point, what he just described, in fact, a variant of that happened in 2018 in the Senate, close Senate, and gubernatorial elections in Florida. You may remember that Andrew Gillum --
CHUCK TODD:
That’s right.
MARC ELIAS:
-- lost by 4/10ths of a percent. And Senator Nelson lost by 1/10th of a percent. And part of that did deal with delayed receipt of mail ballots due to a central sorting facility that had had a closure due to terrorist pipe bombs being mailed through it. And what's, what’s instructive about that is how Senator Nelson and Mayor Gillum reacted, which is they didn't attack the process. They didn't accuse the election workers of bad faith. They didn't claim that there was massive fraud. I represented Senator Nelson in that. We fought hard during the recount. But then we understood that the votes that had been cast had been counted. And what I really worry about is a president that right now is laying seeds of doubt about democracy every day. And he is trying to undermine the U.S. Postal Service and confidence in it, confidence in mail balloting. And I hope that post Election Day, he acts more responsibly, although I don't have high hopes for that.
CHUCK TODD:
Well, the reason we're dedicating a full hour to this is because of our concerns about how the vote's going to be counted, what will things be like after Election Day, and therefore, why we have two lawyers leading our show today. Anyway, Marc Elias, Ben Ginsberg. Ben, good luck with retirement. I see what you're trying to do.
BEN GINSBERG:
Thank you.
CHUCK TODD:
It'll suck you back in, my friend. They will suck you back in.
BEN GINSBERG:
It may.
CHUCK TODD:
I can just say it.
MARC ELIAS:
Congratulations, Ben.
BEN GINSBERG:
I’ll remember my grandchildren.
MARC ELIAS:
Congratulations, Ben.
CHUCK TODD:
Anyway, thank you both. Much appreciated. Up next, we'll take you to one of the largest vote processing centers in the country and show you what happens to your ballot after you mail it in. Stay with us.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. With 190 million Americans eligible to vote by mail this year, spurred by COVID concerns, states are preparing for an unprecedented surge in mail-in ballots. So what happens to your ballot after you mail it? Well, we asked my colleague, Jo Ling Kent, to take us to one of the largest and most prepared of all vote processing centers in the country. It's in Orange County, California, south of Los Angeles.
[BEGIN TAPE]
JO LING KENT:
In Orange County, California the final sprint to Election Day begins on October 5th. In a month, all of these envelopes will be stuffed with ballots and sent out to voters. Once they're returned here to the registrar, that's when the process kicks into high gear. Orange County's nonpartisan chief elections official, Neal Kelley, oversees the fifth largest voting jurisdiction in the United States. He says he's running a military style operation to handle what's likely to be the biggest mail-in vote ever.
NEAL KELLEY:
I think we're probably going to see upwards of 90%, honestly, for the November election.
JO LING KENT:
That could add up to 1.2 million in Orange County. Kelley has been anticipating the onslaught since the pandemic hit in March, investing more than $1 million in new machinery and doing dry runs to prepare.
NEAL KELLEY:
You know, I lose sleep a lot at night. I think every election official does. And one of the things that I lose sleep over is making sure the voters understand their options.
JO LING KENT:
The options? Mail in your ballot early, drop it off in one of these secure drop boxes, or deliver it in person to a vote center starting four days before Election Day. You can, of course, always vote in person.
NEAL KELLEY:
So when your ballot arrives, the first thing it does is go into this piece of equipment. And what this piece of equipment does at a very high speed, it's capturing an image of that signature in a split second.
JO LING KENT:
What happens if your signature is not legitimate?
NEAL KELLEY:
It goes to another tier for additional review.
JO LING KENT:
A human is comparing the signature here?
NEAL KELLEY:
Correct. Correct. A human being is comparing every single signature. So if it’s good ballots, then these ballots come into this device right here, and this piece of equipment actually slits the envelope open. And this operator would pull out each individual ballot.
JO LING KENT:
Is he able to see the way I cast my ballot?
NEAL KELLEY:
No. The secrecy of the ballot remains because it stays folded here until it goes to another team for opening and flattening. This is the moment of truth because now it comes in and we scan it and we're capturing all the data, what the voter actually voted.
JO LING KENT:
Although Orange County captures mail-in ballots as soon as they arrive, no actual votes are tallied until Election Day. California allows ballots to arrive up to 17 days after Election Day as long as they're postmarked by November 3rd. Kelley has 30 days by state law to count all the votes, but believes they could finish in two weeks. As for the criticism from the White House?
PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
Mail-in ballots will lead to the greatest fraud. Universal mail-in is a very dangerous thing. It's fraught with fraud and every other thing that could happen.
NEAL KELLEY:
I try and stay out of the political phrase "The election official," right? But just in general, when you talk about the security of mail-in voting in general, I think it has more secure aspects than in-person voting.
JO LING KENT:
What we saw is a situation where the county has the time, money and resources to handle the expected surge in mail-in voting. But that's just not the case nationwide. Not all counties are this fortunate or prepared. Chuck.
CHUCK TODD:
Jo Ling Kent with our report there in Southern California. Jo Ling, thank you. As sophisticated, by the way, as the mail-in system is in California, it still takes quite a bit of time to get results. For instance, in 2018, 17 House races in California were called after Election Day. Twelve of them more than a week later. When we come back, Attorney General William Barr last week said it is reckless and dangerous to shift to widespread mail-in voting. Is that really true? Coming up, how states are getting ready for Election Day.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. How you vote by mail depends on where you live. Nine states and Washington, D.C. automatically send ballots to voters. Voters in another ten states automatically get an application for an absentee ballot sent to them. And in half the states, 25, people are allowed to vote by mail without an excuse or with the coronavirus as their excuse. And six states, mostly in the south, require an excuse to vote absentee. By the way, 20 states have changed their rules due to the pandemic this calendar year. And joining me now are three state officials whose job it will be to oversee the voting in their respective states: Republican Secretary of State Frank LaRose of Ohio, Democratic Secretary of State Jocelyn Benson of Michigan, and State Board of Elections Director Karen Brinson Bell of North Carolina. Welcome all of you to Meet the Press. And Karen Brinson Bell, I'm going to start with you, North Carolina. Friday, absentee ballots went out. How would you say your level of -- where is your level of concern when it comes to preparedness for this election season?
KAREN BRINSON BELL:
We have been optimistic the entire time. This is not the first time that North Carolina has been 60 days out in delivering absentee-by-mail ballots. That's par for the course in our state. It's just that we're trying to get out more than we typically would. But we were fortunate to have our primary as part of Super Tuesday. So we were ahead of the pandemic. We have had a small election in June that helped us to prepare. And I am so proud of the 100 county election directors and boards for the preparations and steps that they've been taking.
CHUCK TODD:
Frank LaRose, unlike -- Karen mentioned that North Carolina was on Super Tuesday so avoided a COVID postponement -- you guys did postpone. So you basically had to run the traps a couple of times. How important was that experience for you going into November?
FRANK LAROSE:
You know, Ohio had a primary set for March 17th. The governor made the decision that it wouldn't be safe to go forward with in person voting, so our state legislature chose to conclude the election as an all-postal primary. And, of course, we carried that out, as you saw. But some of the lessons that we learned from that, though, is that our boards of elections are incredibly well-positioned to handle high volumes of absentee voting.
CHUCK TODD:
What concern right now do you have about November as far as Ohio's preparations are concerned?
FRANK LAROSE:
Chuck, the thing that we're thinking about more than anything right now is poll worker recruitment. It takes 35,000 Ohioans --
CHUCK TODD:Yeah.
FRANK LAROSE:
-- to run in person Election Day. And so we're doing all we can to recruit those poll workers. And next, we're making sure that we get accurate information out to Ohio's voters. It's just crucial that people have reliable information. That's why your profession is protected by the very First Amendment. And that's why one of my most important jobs is being that source of accurate and trusted information for Ohio's voters.
CHUCK TODD:
Jocelyn Benson, what did you learn from Michigan's experience? You ended up with a high volume of mail-in ballots. And obviously, you've gone through a whole bunch of election changes since 2016 that you're going to be implementing for the first time. So give me your assessment of where you feel like Michigan is right now.
JOCELYN BENSON:
Well, yeah, Chuck, one of the silver linings of 2020 for us has been options for voters and opportunities to clarify those options. Voters in Michigan can vote early by mail. They can return ballots through a drop box. We've placed close to 1,000 secure drop boxes all around the state. They can vote early in person at their clerk's office, and then every precinct will be open on Election Day. We've been able to hone this plan for November through three successful elections that we've had already this year where we've seen in every single one turnout has doubled, putting us on track to have Michigan's November election be the highest turnout ever in the history of our state.
CHUCK TODD:
I want to go to the postal service issue. You were pretty concerned about it at one time. Where are you now? Have you had reassurances from the postal service folks that you've dealt with since this kerfuffle began?
JOCELYN BENSON:
Well, yes. I mean, I have spoken directly with the postmaster general. And we've been in near constant communication with our postmaster leaders and postal leaders on the ground here in Michigan. We're approaching this from a two-pronged strategy. One is to make sure the system works, that citizens can receive their ballots and return them on time. We've created drop boxes as a workaround for citizens who may not feel comfortable or wait till the last minute to return their ballots. But we're now also facing a perception issue. That the changes in the postal service, if nothing else, have created confusion and chaos where none existed prior. And so, the voter education and the confidence-boosting we now have to do and will do to ensure voters feel confident that their vote is sent through the mail and will count is a key part of our work moving forward.
CHUCK TODD:
Frank LaRose, talk to me about security on your drop boxes in Ohio.
FRANK LAROSE:
So we require that they be under 24-hour video surveillance. They are emptied every day by a bipartisan team at the County Boards of Elections. That's part of the security protocols. And again, Ohioans stress that, whether they mail in their absentee ballot or whether they use the secure drop box at the Board of Elections, that their voice will be heard because they can track their ballot by going to our website, VoteOhio.gov, just like you'd track a package. And I know many other states offer this as well, so you can have that confidence that the Board of Elections has received your ballot.
CHUCK TODD:
Karen Brinson Bell, I'm curious. You're going to be dealing with more absentee ballots than ever before. And it is going to slow down the counting and the processing of this. Walk me through what is -- you know, how quickly can you verify mail-in ballots? And can you verify them before you count them in order to speed up the count?
KAREN BRINSON BELL:
I think North Carolina's uniquely positioned for this because we, you know, began sending out absentee-by-mail ballots on September 4th to nearly 600,000 absentee requests that we had received. We are ahead of the game in sending out those ballots. That's more time for voters to return them. We also have had in place for a number of years now the ability to process absentee-by-mail ballots in advance of Election Day. We also tabulate on Election Day the results from our one-stop early voting which we think will be about 50 percent of the ballots cast. We'll have probably had 30 percent, 40 percent of the ballots cast absentee-by-mail. So even by the close of polls on Election Night, we may be reporting as much as 80 percent of our voter turnout and how they've chosen before -- at the time that the polls close.
CHUCK TODD:
So you may end up then being a fast-counting state with results quickly, and I know Ohio and I know, Frank LaRose, I know you guys process early, which brings me to you, Jocelyn Benson of Michigan. You guys can't start processing until Election Day. It took a long time to get some results during your primary. Should we be prepared for Thanksgiving and the Michigan results to be coming together?
JOCELYN BENSON:
No, but we should be prepared for this to be closer to an Election Week, as opposed to an Election Day. I mean, the bottom line is we are not going to have the full results and a counting of all of our ballots on Election Night. We already know that. We've asked the legislature to make changes to the law to give us more ability to be prepared and count those ballots more efficiently. They have not acted for reasons that I don't fully, completely understand. But that said, we're increasing tabulators. We're increasing capacity to more efficiently and securely count those ballots. But I'm also laser-focused on accuracy. And if it takes a few extra days to ensure we have a full and accurate counting of the results of every race, that's what it's going to take. And we're going to be transparent throughout that whole process to make sure every citizen knows exactly where we are in the counting process and how many more ballots we have to get through.
CHUCK TODD:
Are you concerned that people may take the delay in getting all the results in Michigan to declare a phony winner?
JOCELYN BENSON:
Yes. But to me, that's just going to be another example of the type of misinformation and disinformation that we're seeing multiple ways from multiple platforms and voices in this election cycle. So we're going to counter that misinformation with truth and accuracy. “These are the ballots that have been counted and reported. This is where the work is still happening.” And we'll continue to keep the public updated. And again, being that source of trusted information of clear facts and data is going to be really important for every secretary of state this year as we seek to cut through lots of different rhetoric that's going to only be increasing in the weeks coming up to Election Day and beyond.
CHUCK TODD:
Frank LaRose, Senator Marco Rubio of Florida has actually got a bill that would change the day the electors meet from December 14th to January 2nd. Essentially, it's because he says, "Look, states may need more time. They may need more time to certify and don’t -- it's an artificial date, the December 14th. It’s not in the Con -- you can shift that around." Would you like more time?
FRANK LAROSE:
Chuck, we're certainly planning on having our Electoral College meet on December 14th. We're preparing for that. Of course, you know, we count the ballots on Election Night. We always report that as unofficial tabulation. We know that over the next ten days, as long as those ballots were legally cast, they can continue to be received at our Board of Elections. That's our law here in Ohio. And so we're making it clear that the numbers that you hear on Election Night are never the final result, and that's going to be even more so the case this year as we rely on more and more absentee balloting. We're even changing the way that our Election Night reporting is done on our website to make it clear that there still may be tens or hundreds of thousands of outstanding absentee ballots. We expect those to come back in. Whether it's one of my former military teammates who's serving overseas, or maybe an Ohioan that just procrastinated and waited till the last minute, as long as those ballots are legally cast, they deserve to be counted. And so again, Election Night, yeah, we'll give a snapshot of those results. But the final tabulation is what really matters.
CHUCK TODD:
Jocelyn Benson of Michigan, I think we learned from you that it's Election Week, at a minimum, in Michigan. Frank LaRose there of Ohio, obviously, poll workers are a priority you wanted to make sure we brought up. And Karen Brinson Bell, feeling as prepared as you can be. I appreciate all of you. Good luck. We're all counting on all three of you doing an outstanding job. This is one case where, regardless of party, everybody wants all three of you to succeed. So thank you.
JOCELYN BENSON:
Thank you.
KAREN BRINSON BELL:
Thank you.
CHUCK TODD:
When we come back, hundreds of thousands of mail-in ballots were thrown out during this year's primaries. Coming up, we're going to look at three battleground states where rejected ballots could make all the difference in the world.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. It is data download time. Several different analyses, including from The Washington Post and NPR, have found that roughly half a million mail-in ballots were rejected from states that held their primary elections during the pandemic. So we decided to dive into three of the states that had the closest margins in 2016 to look at how many ballots were thrown out, whose they were, and why they got tossed. By now, you know the states by heart, Wisconsin, Michigan and Pennsylvania. President Trump won all three by razor thin margins, taking the White House by their combined 77,000 total votes. All three allow no excuse mail-in voting now. Michigan and Pennsylvania are doing it for the very first time. So let's start with Wisconsin. More than 23,000 mail-in votes were canceled in the state's primary earlier this year. And there were lots of reasons. Many of them were different. Some voters missed the deadline or had mail issues. But most were rejected because of certification issues like a problem with a witness signature. Fewer ballots were rejected in Michigan's spring primary, 10,694. The biggest culprit there? Most arrived too late to be counted, followed by signature problems and mail issues. And finally, Pennsylvania, where close to 27,000 ballots were thrown out this year. Just as in Michigan, the biggest issue there was the return deadline, followed by mail issues like the ballot label being misplaced or damaged. It also matters whose ballots get thrown out. Pennsylvania tracked that as well. In that state, many of the rejected ballots came from Philadelphia and suburban Montgomery County that's right next door, crucial Democratic counties. Remember, the number of rejected ballots remains relatively small. But if 2020 looks anything like 2016, especially in Pennsylvania, those rejected ballots could make a huge difference. When we come back, what changes are needed to reform the system. Our panel is next.
CHUCK TODD:
Welcome back. All of us are used to knowing the winner of the presidential election on Election Night or sometimes in the wee hours of the morning -- 2000, an exception, of course. But people who follow Congressional races in some states are more accustomed to waiting a few days to find out. And this year, with the rise in mail-in voting, those places may offer a cautionary tale. Take, for example, the U.S. Senate race in Arizona in 2018 between Republican Martha McSally and Democrat Kyrsten Sinema. When most of us went to bed on Election Night 2018, McSally was in the lead. But just 57% of the votes had been accounted for. But at that point, there were still more than 600,000 mail-in votes that hadn't been processed yet. So nobody declared any victory. Two days later, on November 8th, more processed mail-in ballots had given the tiniest of leads to Sinema. 1/10th of a point with more votes still to be counted. Again, no declarations. The next day, Friday, November 9th, the president decided to tweet. "Just out in Arizona. Signatures don't match. Electoral corruption. Call for a new election? We must protect our democracy." The tweet, coincidentally, came after the first time Sinema took the lead. But Sinema expanded her lead. And on Monday, November 12th, McSally conceded the race. Sinema ultimately won by just over two percentage points. So, you know, not a landslide, but normally a race that you usually can decide on Election Night. And with that, I'd like to bring in this morning's panel. We have Michael Waldman, president of the Brennan Center for Justice at the NYU Law School, Janai Nelson of the NAACP Legal Defense and Education Fund, and NBC News National Security Analyst Clint Watts. And Clint, it's on this topic right there that I want to begin. We don't have to speculate whether the president will mess around with the vote count. We have evidence that he did it once, in 2018, during that Arizona Senate race. And that's why I wanted to start here. The issue of misinformation and disinformation, I heard it from the Board of Elections folks we've talked to. We heard it from the election lawyers. This seems to be the greatest concern of this election.
CLINT WATTS:
And Chuck, it's called the liar's dividend, right? Once you put the information out there, you set the agenda and then you drive people's perceptions around what reality is. You and I have talked on here a couple different times. People tend to believe what they hear first, what they hear the most. And you can bet in this campaign coming up on Election Night, they're going to be pushing a message of victory, a message of cementing what reality will be for them. And this is going to cause such chaos, such trouble. And my biggest worry on Election Night is if people will be mobilized to polling places, or even advance to polling places, leading to voter intimidation, or belief that the thing is rigged, even though you've had all these great experts on here today restoring faith in our democracy and trying to tell people how they can trust the results of the vote.
CHUCK TODD:
Janai Nelson, this is what you focus on, in some ways. I mean, the backbone of the NAACP has been access to the polls, creating more access to it. And obviously, the misinformation is of concern. What are your biggest concerns about this upcoming election? And is it, is it the access issue?
JANAI NELSON:
Well, at the NAACP Legal Defense and Educational Fund, we are deeply concerned about misinformation and disinformation. And, of course, about access to the ballot in light of the pandemic that has wrought havoc on the African American and LatinX community. As we know, African Americans are three times as likely to have been affected by COVID than whites, and two times as likely to have passed away as a result of the completely mishandled pandemic. And so, that necessarily means that African Americans are more likely to have to rely on mail-in voting. And the misinformation that the president has disseminated about the reliability of mail-in voting is deeply concerning. So many people will need to rely on that method of voting in order to preserve their health, in order to exercise their Constitutional right to vote. And to malign the very process that he and Attorney General Barr and so many in his Cabinet use as their method of voting, and so many Americans have successfully used over time, is such a hypocritical move, and is a clear and present danger to our democracy.
CHUCK TODD:
Michael Waldman, one of the things that we also featured in our data download has to do with spoiled ballots. And how, you just -- if you look at the state of Pennsylvania, it's pretty clear that it looks like that the votes of people that live in Philadelphia, and you can check the census and decide if that's going to end up impacting more voters of color, but it sure looks like more voters of color saw their ballots thrown out. So let me ask you the question this way, Michael Waldman. What is the best way to guarantee that your vote counts?
MICHAEL WALDMAN:
Well, the best way for anybody to guarantee that their vote counts is this year, it's an unusual year, vote early, whether you vote by mail early, whether you vote in person early, whether you use drop boxes, which is actually how most people who vote by mail vote. And that is something we as citizens can do. States need money. Congress passed some, but it's all bollocksed up in the negotiations over the stimulus. More money will help states count the ballots better. The private sector can step in. But I do think that you've hit on something else, which is all of us need to understand that every vote should count, whether it's voted by mail or voted in person. Every vote should count. And this idea that there's something wrong with vote by mail in the middle of a pandemic, that's not a charge, that's a lie. And that is a -- It's extraordinary to have the president of the United States going out of his way to try to undermine faith in American democracy in the middle of a crisis like this. So, you know, we all need to be patient and understand, as you've said, it's not going to be Election Night. We're not going to have the announcement at 11:00 on the east coast, probably, the way we have other years. But that doesn't mean there's a problem. It just means people are carefully counting the votes.
CHUCK TODD:
You know, Clint Watts, Facebook announced that it was going to not allow new political advertising in the final week of the election for fear of this manipulation of, of voting access and things like this. It looked like a nice press release, but boy, there certainly looked like a lot of loopholes to this announcement to me. Did Facebook really do anything? And is advertising really the best way to stop misinformation?
CLINT WATTS:
Yeah, Chuck, it's a great point. Look, I'm glad Facebook did something, but it's pretty late in the game. One week out, as we just heard, the best thing you can do is vote early. And if there's misperceptions about when and how and where you vote, they're going to be coming out way beyond seven days. And they probably won't be as ads. It's mostly going to be individuals that are doing this. And the question is twofold I think. One, how do we tag that content, regardless of platform? All these platforms are being used to try and sow disinformation or misinformation into the public. The second part is what I've really seen over the last two weeks, is calls for mobilization, whether it's protests, and this is only going to converge. We've got COVID-19, racial justice protests and Election Night all coming up at the same time. And they all compound on each other. There have been mobilizations, calls to mobilization on social media that I've seen across the country that have brought tons of people to local municipalities and absolutely overwhelmed law enforcement, Kenosha being one example. So I think that's the other phase. Yeah, I'm worried about misinformation regarding the election and voting. I'm really worried about mobilizations and how the social media companies can try and quell that as well.
CHUCK TODD:
Janai Nelson, I want to talk about voter suppression issues. Look, it was a huge, it was a huge issue in the state of Georgia. I think Stacey Abrams to this day believes that various tactics, whether it's voter roll purging, did -- she believes -- did cost her that election. What states are you the most focused on this cycle where you're concerned about those issues?
JANAI NELSON:
Well, we're focused on a number of states. We're a nonpartisan organization so our foremost concern is to ensure that every voter has an opportunity to cast an equal ballot, regardless of any party affiliation. So we're focused on states that have a majority African American population, regardless of, again, whether they're considered swing states or not because we believe that the right to vote is fundamental and must be protected at all costs. So we have operations in a number of states through a Prepare to Vote Campaign, where we're educating voters about all of the options that they have to cast a ballot to ensure that it is ultimately counted. And you've already noted that there is a disparity in terms of what ballots get thrown out, what ballots get counted. There are disparities in early voting. There are disparities on a number of fronts that make equal access to the ballot unequal throughout our country. And that falls largely on the shoulders of African Americans and LatinX voters. What we are most concerned about though this particular election cycle is the misinformation that can mislead voters about where and when to vote. And we are calling upon social media platform leaders, the Silicon Valley leadership, to ensure that there are clear rules around voting and that disinformation is identified and flagged and removed from those platforms immediately.
CHUCK TODD:
You know, Michael Waldman, one of the things that supposedly makes our election so secure is that we have so many different rules and regulations depending on state voter registration deadlines. But it does feel as if this year, that is leading to more confusion than it does security.
MICHAEL WALDMAN:
Well, you know, we don't have one national election. We don't even have 50 state elections. We have hundreds and thousands of elections run by counties. That's the legacy of our system as we've had it. Really, there's a great benefit to having some national standards and some national expectations. There should be access to vote by mail for everybody who wants to do it. There should be early voting opportunities and safe, in-person voting opportunities everywhere. And if we have those kinds of national expectations, the kind of crazy profusion of rules won't matter quite as much. But this should be an impetus to us to understand we need to kind of upgrade, modernize and fix our rather ramshackle system of running things.
CHUCK TODD:
And hopefully, that is yet another thing this pandemic has exposed in all of us here. Michael Waldman, Janai Nelson, Clint Watts, really appreciate all three of you bringing your expertise to this panel. And if you haven't figured it out yet, it is more important than ever to know your state's rules and to plan your vote. So please check out our interactive guide that has all you need to know about casting a ballot. Look for it at NBCNews.com/PlanYourVote to learn more. And remember, there will be Vote Watch segments all this week. So thank you for watching. Enjoy the rest of your Labor Day Weekend. Stay safe and we'll see you next week because if it's Sunday, it's Meet the Press.