updated 10/11/2005 12:01:33 PM ET 2005-10-11T16:01:33

Guests: Eddie Jordan, Kinky Friedman, Richard Land, Jane Wolff, Rabbi Shmuley Boteach

JOE SCARBOROUGH, HOST, “SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY”:  And you can follow that story immediately with THE SITUATION with Tucker Carlson.  That starts right now.  Tucker, get us up to date with THE SITUATION. 

TUCKER CARLSON, HOST:  We‘re going to, Joe, thanks.

And thank you at home for sticking with THE SITUATION.  We‘re glad to have you.  A lot going on tonight, including a possibly disastrous scenario involving California‘s water system.  More on the growing controversy over Supreme Court nominee Harriet Miers.  I‘ll also be joined live by Texas gubernatorial candidate, Kinky Friedman, to discuss his very unconventional campaign. 

We begin our show tonight in New Orleans.  Tensions are running high in that city tonight. 

Three police officers there pleaded not guilty to charges they assaulted a 64-year-old retired school teacher as well as an Associated Press reported who helped capture the video you‘re seeing right now. 

Patrolman Lance Schilling, Stuart Smith and Robert evangelists.

Three officers were released on bond and have been suspended without pay.  The suspect in that case, Robert Davis, was booked on public intoxication.  And here is Davis with his take on what happened to him.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROBERT DAVIS, SUSPECTED OF PUBLIC INTOXICATION:  I haven‘t had a drink in 25 years.  I haven‘t had a drop of alcohol in 25 and have no intention of drinking.  None.  Do you understand?  Drinking ain‘t the best thing.  It‘s not healthy, for one thing.  You know, and I haven‘t drank in I don‘t know how long.  I don‘t even know what it is to drink.  I wouldn‘t even know what alcohol tastes like. 

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CARLSON:  New Orleans police spokesman Marlin De Filo said, quote, “It‘s a troubling tape.”  No doubt about that.  The understatement of the week. 

Here to discuss this disturbing video and its implications for New Orleans, district attorney Eddie Jordan.  Mr. Jordan, thanks for coming on. 

EDDIE JORDAN, DISTRICT ATTORNEY:  Thank you.

CARLSON:  Thank you.  And I‘m sure you‘re not surprised, either, that this happened.  I saw a guy just get slammed and beaten by cops on Bourbon Street.  And you know what he did, but you know that this takes place and I do, too. 

What I‘m surprised by are the defenses of these guys.  The police spokesman, Mr. Delio (ph), said they have been working long hours.  Right?  The head of the police union seemed to be defending them too.  Tell me there‘s a sense of outrage over this?

JORDAN:  Well, I know that based on the observation that I made of the footage, video footage, it was certainly a horrible scene, a beating of a private citizen and of course, the assault of the Associated Press reporter.  It appears to be conduct that is totally excessive and certainly conduct that‘s unacceptable. 

CARLSON:  This is, for people who aren‘t familiar with the police department in New Orleans, just another notch in a growing list of misconduct among police officers there.  During the 1990s, about 50 cops were convicted on felonies two, now on Death Row, believe it or not.

What is it about New Orleans and its police department that seems to foster misbehavior among the police?  Or do you think that‘s an unfair characterization?

JORDAN:  Well, I know that I served as U.S. attorney during the mid-90s, and into the late 90s.  And during that time period, we had a number of instances involving corrupt and brutal police officers. 

It‘s hard to say whether there is something—something systemic in the police department, but I think that there has been neglect from time to time of the department and an unwillingness to deal with problems that seem to go on and on. 

And of course, there have been times when leadership has come forward to address these problems, but they seem to come back. 

CARLSON:  Do you think that part of the problem may be, A, there aren‘t enough cops?  New Orleans has about half the number of police officers per capita as, say, Washington, D.C., does and a much higher murder rate than Washington.  Only I think about a quarter less than of all murders there end in convictions.

Do you think part of the problem is that police officers have to live in the city?  Wouldn‘t it be a better idea just to allow that job to be open to anybody who wants it, to the best qualified from anywhere?

JORDAN:  Well, I think right now, most of the citizens of New Orleans live outside of the city, so I don‘t think that the residency issue is really a major point at this point in time. 

But I think the problem is more that—that police officers do not necessarily make effective arrests.  And I think that that—that‘s something that we have to work on.  And when I say effective, I mean we have to have solid cases to present in court and we have to have quality cases. 

We‘ve been making a lot of arrests in misdemeanor-type situations...

CARLSON:  Yes.

JORDAN:  ... and not as much attention has been focused on the far more serious offenses. 

CARLSON:  Though this, just watching this tape of these guys rough up a citizen and a reporters just makes you want to punch back hard.  And I hope, metaphorically speaking, somebody does.  I hope you all do. 

Eddie Jordan, district attorney of New Orleans, thanks a lot for coming on.

JORDAN:  Thank you, Tucker.

CARLSON:  Well, to discuss the New Orleans fiasco and many other things, a man who is currently running for governor of Texas as an independent.  From the great city of Austin, it is musician, author and now candidate Kinky Friedman, live.

Kinky, are you there?

KINKY FRIEDMAN (I), TEXAS GUBERNATORIAL CANDIDATE:  Yes.  Yes, Tucker.  How are you?

CARLSON:  I‘m doing great.  Now, if you‘re elected governor, and in a way, I really hope you are, what would you do?  What would you do about police brutality in instances like this tape we just saw?

FRIEDMAN:  Cops are—cops, along with teachers and firefighters are my heroes.  In this case, these are bad apples and they should be thrown out as quickly as you can, and immediately, if possible. 

And the one thing we have learned, I think, from these hurricanes is, you‘ve got to appoint the best people, simply because they‘re the best people.  You can‘t appoint somebody‘s roommate to oversee this stuff. 

CARLSON:  Amen.  Now you‘re obviously from Texas.  So is our current president, George W. Bush having a tough time.  I think you know him.  What would be your advice to President Bush right now?

FRIEDMAN:  Oh, God.  I—I guess my advice to him would be, hang on tight, spur hard and let her buck, you know?  I don‘t know.  That job, being president is too hard.  I‘m running for governor.  The governorship of Texas is not that difficult.  You don‘t have your finger on a nuclear button.  All you have to do is inspire the people of Texas.

CARLSON:  Well, you‘ve inspired me with your platform.  I want to put it up on the screen.  And here are some bullet points.  This is what you‘re running on, at least part of it.  Legalized casino gambling, protecting innocent from Death Row, no killing innocent people, abolish political correctness.  Good for you.  Bring young blood into the administration and outlaw the de-clawing of cats.  I think I agree with almost all those.  What about outlaw de-clawing of cats.  Where did you get that?

FRIEDMAN:  Well, in general, we have Utopia Rescue Ranch for animals, a sanctuary for animals.  People can see that on the web site, KinkyFriedman.com.  That‘s great work.  Money may buy you a fine dog but only love can make him wag his tail. 

And this is—I‘ve enjoyed very much.  I think stray animals that come into your life are as close to God as you might get.  And this whole campaign—Tucker, the campaign is not a political one.  It‘s a spiritual one.  In the words of my advisor, Billy Joe Shaver, if you don‘t love Jesus, go to hell. 

CARLSON:  So, do you—I thought you were Jewish.  Do you love Jesus now?

FRIEDMAN:  Well, I always did love Jesus.  I‘m a Judeo-Christian.  I have Jesus and Moses in my heart.  And both were homeless people, actually, and both were independents. 

And a lot of the campaign derives from people like Jesus and Moses and Gandhi, Martin Luther king, Father Damien, Bob Dylan, Lenny Bruce.  People—with the exception of Bob Dylan, all these guys died broke, and they didn‘t spend $100 million in the last governor‘s race in Texas, only to get 29 percent of the eligible voters voting. 

CARLSON:  That‘s true.  And Father Damien died even worse than broke.  He died a leper.

Now I want to put up one of your position points here. 

FRIEDMAN:  He was a great one.

CARLSON:  He was a great one.

FRIEDMAN:  He‘s my hero.

CARLSON:  And Moldechai.  I want to put up one of your position points here.  Abolish political correctness.  Texans need to be told the truth.  Texans don‘t need opaque, carefully scripted press releases.  A man ought to be able to light his cigar once in awhile.

FRIEDMAN:  Well, that‘s the anti-wussification campaign, Tucker.  I‘m going to beat this political correctness if I‘ve got to do it one wus at a time. 

And basically it‘s things like, you know, last year people were afraid to say, “Merry Christmas.”  You know?  Like in the hill country where I live, they say, “Merry Christmas.”  Well, I want people to be able to say, “Merry Christmas” any time they want.

I want to bring back the 10 Commandments to the public schools.  We may have to change their name to the 10 suggestions.  But the reason they were taken away this in the first place is not church and state; it‘s political correctness.  It‘s one atheist standing up and saying, “I don‘t like these 10 Commandments,” and out they go.

CARLSON:  That‘s right.  It‘s the dictatorship of the lone eccentric guy with a problem he wants to impose on everyone else.  I totally agree. 

FRIEDMAN:  And everybody knows what happens when an atheist dies.  His tombstone reads, “All dressed up and no place to go.” 

CARLSON:  So—so how would you, in addition to bringing back the 10 Suggestions, how would you go about weeding the—as you put it, the wusses out of public life?

FRIEDMAN:  Well, I think that‘s going to be pretty easy.  As an independent candidate, I pick the issues that I like.  So I‘m the only candidate you‘ll ever talk to, Tucker, who—who is for prayer in school, because I say what‘s wrong with a kid believing in something.

CARLSON:  Right.

FRIEDMAN:  And I‘m also for gay marriage, because I say they have every right to be just as miserable as the rest of us.  Love is bigger than government.  And Texas, by the way, has a very progressive law about gay couples adopting kids.  We just won‘t let them get married.  So that‘s not common sense.

CARLSON:  So if you‘re for prayer in schools, for the 10 Commandments, also for gay marriage...

FRIEDMAN:  Yes.

CARLSON:  Who do you expect to get?  Aren‘t you kind of alienating everybody?

FRIEDMAN:  No, no, not at all.  All people want is somebody who will tell the plain truth and give them clean, efficient government.  That‘s all I think anybody wants. 

We‘ve all been disappointed by the Republicans and Democrats.  And only time they get off their asses these days is to attack each other.  The Republicans and Democrats are monopolizing democracy in Texas.  And they‘re trying to keep—they‘re trying to keep me off the ballot, to keep independents off the ballot.  And to keep the turnout down. 

And that‘s why we haven‘t had an independent on the ballot for governor since Sam Houston 146 years ago. 

CARLSON:  He did a pretty good job.

FRIEDMAN:  He was great.  Sam Houston built this state. 

CARLSON:  Jesse Ventura could do it, and I think you‘re a much better man.  Kinky Friedman, good luck.  Hope you come back on.

FRIEDMAN:  Thank you very much.  May the God of your choice bless you, Tucker. 

CARLSON:  Amen.

FRIEDMAN:  Thank you very much.

CARLSON:  Thank you.

Still to come, Harriet Miers gets a cold shoulder from Senate Republicans.  Is the president‘s latest Supreme Court nomination about to blow up right before his very eyes? 

Plus, more cries of incompetence after a natural disaster.  This time, it‘s the Pakistanis who are desperate for help.  An update on the massive earthquake that has killed more than 20,000 people.  Be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CARLSON:  Supreme Court nominee Harriet Miers got a standing ovation from her home church in Dallas, Texas, this weekend.  But so far, her response, her reception on Capitol Hill has not been nearly as warm. 

A survey published by the “Washington Times” today indicated that nearly half of Senate Republicans are not convinced that Harriet Miers is suited to take a seat on the Supreme Court. 

Joining us now, one of her conservative supporters.  Dr. Richard Land is president of the Ethics and Religious Liberties Commission for the Southern Baptist Convention.  He joins us now from Chicago. 

Dr. Land, thanks for coming on.

RICHARD LAND, PRESIDENT, ETHICS AND RELIGIOUS LIBERTIES COMMISSION, SOUTHERN BAPTIST CONVENTION:  Glad to be with you. 

CARLSON:  I want to read you what Ed Meese, then counselor to President Reagan, told religious conservatives back in 1991 about Sandra Day O‘Connor.  Quote, “Sandra Day O‘Connor thinks abortion is abhorrent and is not in favor of it.  She agrees with the president on abortion.  She is very conservative.  Sandra Day O‘Connor assured President Reagan she was in agreement with him and totally supports pro-family issues and the Republican platform,” end quote.

That‘s what religious conservatives, your counterparts from 24 years ago, were told about a Supreme Court nominee who wound up being one of the reasons we still have Roe v. Wade.  Aren‘t you concerned at all that the assurances you‘re getting from this administration will mirror the assurances that the Reagan administration gave religious conservatives then?

LAND:  No, I‘m not.  And the reason is I know President Bush.  I‘ve known President Bush since 1988.  And with all due respect to Ronald Reagan, you know, a man I had tremendous admiration and respect for, Ronald Reagan had a bunch of people around him whose main job, they thought, was to keep Reagan from being Reagan. 

In the George W. Bush administration there are people around him who are there to help Bush be Bush, and one of those people is Harriet Miers.  She has been at his elbow and at his side for the last four and a half years as they have been giving us the most stellar judicial nominees in the history of the republic. 

This president has known this woman for 15 years.  He‘s worked with her daily.  That‘s a little different than Ronald Reagan. 

CARLSON:  It is.  It is in a way, but hold on.  I mean, Ronald Reagan was as opposed to abortion as anyone who‘s ever been in public life in this country.  He wrote a book about his opposition to abortion. 

LAND:  He did.

CARLSON:  This president, by stark contrast, refuses to say in public, as he did just last week, that he thinks Roe v. Wade ought to be overturned.  He won‘t say that.  Are you bothered by that?

LAND:  No, I‘m not.  And the reason is, I know this president.  And I know the look in his eye.  I‘ve seen the look in his eye.  I‘ve heard the steel in his voice when he‘s talked about abortion and he‘s talked about strict constructionists, original intent jurists.  And I have...

CARLSON:  Why won‘t he say that?  I wonder why, Dr. Land, I mean, he won‘t simply say what you say is on his mind, that Roe v. Wade...

LAND:  What he—what he has said is he doesn‘t believe the country for Roe v. Wade to be overturned.  And I think the people need to understand that if Roe v. Wade is overturned and if and when Associate Justice Miers because Associate Justice Miers and I believe she will, there still with Roberts and Miers, there are only four votes to overturn Roe. 

But just remember that if Roe is overturned, that doesn‘t outlaw abortion.  It just restores it to the peoples‘ elected representatives to make that decision. 

CARLSON:  That‘s exactly right.  That‘s the point.  That‘s the point that we make often on the show and I think is lost to many people. 

You‘re making the point, I think, that you support Harriet Miers‘ nomination, because you trust the people who support her, specifically President Bush.  But she also has a lot of supporters on the left.  Harry Reid, all sorts of liberal Republicans, pro-choice, very liberal Republicans, are coming out for her, whereas conservative Republicans, many in the Senate, are withholding judgment, at least so far. 

Why do you think she‘s so popular with liberals on Capitol Hill?

LAND:  Well, because she‘s worked with a lot of them.  They know her.  They know that if they‘re going to get a conservative jurist, that she would be a good one. 

I believe that she‘s going to dazzle, and I use that term very carefully.  She‘s going to dazzle the nation when the hearings are held before the judiciary committee.  She may not be John Roberts.  Who is? But she‘s close. 

CARLSON:  Don‘t you think that the president has cheated us, us being everyone else in America, out of a really useful, instructive, positive debate about issues like Roe v. Wade, by nominating people like Harriet Miers and in fact John Roberts with really no debatable record.  They keep that conversation, that public conversation from happening about Roe v. Wade and what the implications of overturning it might be. 

LAND:  It might be a much more corrosive and destructive debate.  And I think the president is making the argument that, if we can get the job done without having that corrosive and destructive and divisive debate when the country‘s at war, then why not do it that way?

CARLSON:  OK.  Dr. Richard Land.  I hope you‘re right.  I genuinely hope you are.  Thanks for joining us today. 

LAND:  Thank you.

CARLSON:  Thanks.

Still to come, the FBI considers giving talented people who smoked a lot of pot a chance to work for the agency.  We‘ll explain.

Plus, you‘ve heard the saying, kids grow up too fast.  Well, for one group of parents, it‘s apparently not fast enough.  They‘re trying to potty train their babies before the kids are old enough to walk.  A potentially messy situation, coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CARLSON:  Welcome back.  It‘s a very special kind of man to say no when everyone around him says yes, and vice versa.  A contrarian‘s contrarian, defender of the indefensible, and nobody does it better than “The Outsider,” from the ESPN Radio and HBO Boxing, Max Kellerman. 

MAX KELLERMAN, ESPN RADIO:  Tucker. 

CARLSON:  Good to see you, Max.

KELLERMAN:  You, too.

CARLSON:  Sorry about the entrance.

KELLERMAN:  Not over yet. 

CARLSON:  First up, there‘s nothing more straight-laced than a G-man.  But times are changing, and now it looks like even the FBI may be loosening up a bit. 

For the first time ever, the bureau is considering hiring applicants who have repeatedly used marijuana and other illegal drugs.  Current rules prohibit hiring anyone who used pot with the last three years or more than 15 times ever. 

A spokesman says no decision has been made yet, but they‘re exploring the possibility. 

And they ought to explore it to the point where they do it.  A lot of people in the executive branch of this government, all through the government handling sensitive material who smoked a lot of pot or even done other drugs in their youth, and it‘s fine.  Right?

They really ought to be concerned about people who are naturalized Americans who have close allegiances to other countries.  They ought to be worried about that, but instead they‘re worried about people who smoked dope.  Who cares?

KELLERMAN:  You‘re really forcing me into a tough position here.

CARLSON:  Yes.  By design.

KELLERMAN:  Look, one of the great hypocrisies of modern American life is that the prohibition of alcohol ended 70 odd years ago and the prohibition of marijuana continues.  It‘s ridiculous.  If alcohol is legal, marijuana should also be legal.

However, even if it were legal, here‘s the argument for FBI agents not being allowed to use it.  Especially in this day and age, in this era of terrorist threats and heightened security what kind of person do you want in the FBI, someone normal?  Now, you don‘t want a normal person who may have smoked some weed in college.  You want someone abnormal.  You want someone who is fastidious in everything they do, who is buttoned.  The kind of guy who might wear a bow tie on television.  I mean, you want a weirdo, Tucker, in the FBI.

CARLSON:  You want someone who is both intelligent and creative, who when he sees a series of foreign born Muslim flight students, right at flight schools around the country, says this is kind of weird.  He doesn‘t stop and say, “Actually, I don‘t want to racial profile anybody,” right, as they did in 2001, but dive right in and say, “I‘m following my instincts.”  That kind of person is much more likely to have smoked pot in college.  Sorry.

KELLERMAN:  Yes, correct.  And you win the debate.  It‘s “Full Metal Jacket.”  I remember a line from “Full Metal Jacket” where he said, “The Marine—the Marines don‘t want machines.  They want killers.”

Well, the FBI shouldn‘t want machines and just goes who strictly go by the book.  They should want people who can think creatively.  Tucker Carlson, you win the argument. 

CARLSON:  Thank you, Max.

Well, here‘s news that should strike fear in the hearts of box lovers everywhere.  There‘s a trend in higher education towards digital learning laboratories.  That‘s a new name for libraries, where actual books will be a thing of the past. 

Fred Heath (ph), who‘s the vice provost of the University of Texas in Austin for libraries, said, quote, “In this information seeking America, I can‘t think of anyone who would elect to build a books-only library.” 

Here‘s the truth, Max.  A lot of librarians—not all but a lot—hate books.  They got rid of the card catalogues.  Nichols and Baker wrote a terrific book.  A series of pieces on the “New Yorker” about this.  They—first they tossed out the card catalogues.  Now they‘ve been, at an ever increasing pace, throwing out books, because ideas are going to be replaced by digitized material which will never replace books for two quick reason.  First there is value in following a single thought or series of thoughts through a thousand pages that you‘re not going to get online.  Nobody sits and reads a thousand pages on the screen.  You can‘t.  It hurts your eyes.  Second...

KELLERMAN:  Who sits and reads a thousand pages in a chair?

CARLSON:  I‘m saying you do.  You read a book.  You put it down.  You come back and keep reading.

KELLERMAN:  Come back to the computer screen, too, Tucker.  But what‘s the second point?

CARLSON:  The second point is books endure.  We have books in libraries that are 1,000 years old.  I‘m just afraid the natural disasters and the passage of time will eliminate all the material we have stored digitally. 

KELLERMAN:  Or some virus comes in and wipes out all the literature.  Sure, those are concerns.  Those are legitimate concerns.  But you know what?  I‘m sure there are concerns when people stopped writing on parchment and the printing press started mass producing books.  There are always concerns when technology creates a world we‘re not used to. 

And yet, I don‘t see where there‘s anything different in the actual activity of reading.  Whether you come back to a book or come back to a computer screen, you‘re reading words.  It‘s the same material.  I know what you mean.  There‘s something nice about holding a book or even a magazine in your hands. 

CARLSON:  Yes.  Yes.  Yes.

KELLERMAN:  It‘s tangible and yet, that‘s probably because we grew up doing that.  We‘re not used—we‘re afraid of the new world.

CARLSON:  Because books smell like something interesting.  Computers do not.  And it all comes down to smell. 

KELLERMAN:  I think it‘s 1-1 right now.  Let‘s have a tie breaker. 

CARLSON:  Well, anyone who thinks kids grow up too fat these days won‘t like this one bit: infant potty training. 

Thousands of people across this country have joined Internet groups and e-mail lists to learn more about how to teach a baby, really a baby, too young to walk or talk, to use the john.  Nothing new.  More than half of the world‘s children are already toilet trained by their first birthdays, according to contemporary pediatrics magazines, something I read almost every week. 

Look, the point is this is totally weird and wrong.  I‘ve watched four toilet trainings fairly close—not that closely but fairly closely, right?  The kids are supposed to be much older.  Teaching your seven-month-old to use the toilet is like teaching your golden retriever to roll over.  It‘s a party trick. 

It‘s bad for kids.  It introduces all sorts of tensions they don‘t need at that age.  They don‘t even have bladder control.  And the bottom line is, Max, if you‘re spending that much time, up to 20 times a day, paying attention to, thinking about, obsessing over your child‘s bowels, eww. 

KELLERMAN:  Well, first of all, teaching a Golden Retriever to roll over, yes, that‘s a party trick.  Teaching a kid to use the toilet, that‘s actually something they need to learn how to do. 

CARLSON:  Not at seven months. 

KELLERMAN:  Why?  Who says that they‘re supposed to learn how to talk before they learn how to potty train.  When a gazelle is born, they need to learn how to walk immediately.  Right? 

CARLSON:  Yes.

KELLERMAN:  Before they know how to eat or go to the bathroom or anything.  Well, who‘s to say what comes first, because Dr. Spock wrote some books in the last century about child rearing?  I notice a trend with you.  You‘re very attached to—to ideas of tradition and very reticent to let go and give in to progress. 

CARLSON:  It‘s not simply that I‘m reactionary, though I am.

KELLERMAN:  Yes.

CARLSON:  It‘s also common sense plays a role in this.  OK?  Kids can‘t physically do it.  They can‘t control their bladder. 

KELLERMAN:  Yes, they can.  You just said that before.  Half of the world‘s children already do. 

CARLSON:  No, they don‘t.  They‘re just—they‘re forced, you know, they‘re forced.  Either they soil themselves because they don‘t have diapers, or they‘re forced to go sit on the toilet until they go. 

KELLERMAN:  You want to rewind—let‘s rewind the tape.  You said it.

CARLSON:  You know what this is?  This is uptight yuppy parents.  I guarantee you only rich people even attempt this.  There‘s no middle class person who‘s ever even thought of something this preposterous.  But this is like forcing your kid to learn Chinese, to take oboe lessons.  You know what I mean?  Become the uber child.

KELLERMAN:  OK, fine.  You only read books that you can hold in your hand.

CARLSON:  Yes.

KELLERMAN:  And have a stinking mess around you.  My kids will learn how to toilet train early and will be reading books on-line. 

CARLSON:  I can‘t wait to meet your kids, Max.  Max Kellerman.

Still ahead, we‘ve seen what Katrina did to the city of New Orleans.  Now is California‘s water supply in extreme danger, and if so, what can the governor of that state, Arnold Schwarzenegger, do about it?  The tale that could be a dire situation, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CARLSON:  Welcome back.

Tonight, halfway across the world the people of Pakistan are dealing with the catastrophe eerily reminiscent of what went on in this nation a few week‘s ago, though frankly much worse.  The death toll after a magnitude 7.6 earthquake is in the tens of thousands.  Millions have been left homeless.

NBC‘s Ned Colt is in Islamabad, Pakistan, some 60 miles south of the quake‘s epicenter.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

NED COLT, NBC NEWS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over):  A mass rush through a tunnel filled with debris after the quake finally cleared today, frantic people waiting for days race through to look for missing family on the other side but a horrifying scene awaits them. 

Muzaffarabad is a town left in rubble, bodies lying in the streets, the sour smell of death fills the air.  The survivors are trying to save those buried in the rubble.  A sledge hammer is all this man can find.  And, even in this grim place, people are looting.  A man tries to chase them off with stones.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE:  There is no water.  There is no food.  There is—even there is no security.

COLT:  And almost nothing left.  Entire villages have been flattened.  Survivors wave to passing helicopters for help.  In nearby Balicot (ph) a basketball court was an outdoor morgue this morning.  By afternoon, it had already turned into a mass grave.

But, amid so much destruction, amazing stories of survival.  A father weeps over his 18-month-old son pulled out of his house this morning.  This is Ibrahim‘s (ph) first drink in 48 hours.  And this woman who didn‘t give up despite being pinned under her collapsed roof.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator):  I held the Quran on my chest for three days.  I was calling my son‘s name and somebody heard me.

COLT:  And today in Islamabad at the remains of a ten-story apartment building, British teams helped bring out two more survivors.  After recovering so many dead, rescuers and onlookers erupted in cheers.

(on camera):  But tonight, two and a half days after the quake, hopes of finding many more survivors are fading.  More than 100 people are still believed to be inside the remains of this building.

(voice-over):  Pakistani troops are now handing out aid but many roads are still impassable.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator):  We are not getting aid.  We are starving.  The children are starving as well.  There‘s nothing to buy, nothing to sleep on, no mats.  We don‘t have anything.

COLT:  In India, where 1,000 people are dead and at least 10,000 missing, soldiers climbed up to mountain villages to bring aid.  Tonight, there could be four million people homeless here and already the winter weather is starting to close in on the mountains.

Ned Colt, NBC News, Islamabad.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CARLSON:  One horrific natural disaster to another.  With residents of New Orleans still trying to rebuild after the devastation of Hurricane Katrina, is the west coast prepared for a similar catastrophe?

My next guest believes a levee break in California is on the horizon and would lead to tragic circumstances similar to those in Louisiana.  Jane Wolff is the author of “Delta Primer, a Field Guide to the California Delta.”  She‘s also an assistant professor at the Graduate School of Architecture and Urban Design at Washington University in St. Louis.  She joins me from there live.  Jane, thanks a lot for coming on.

JANE WOLFF, AUTHOR, “DELTA PRIMER”:  Thanks for having me.

CARLSON:  So, how could this happen, levees break in California how and what happens then?

WOLFF:  Well, the situation is actually not so different from New Orleans. There‘s a river delta that has land in it that subsided.  The subsided land is protected by levees.  The levees are old and they weren‘t designed or engineered for the kinds of circumstances we are facing now, so they could break.

CARLSON:  I mean you must not be the only person who knows this.  The State of California is a huge place with lots of money.  Are the authorities there doing anything about this?

WOLFF:  They are.  They are and they aren‘t.  The Department of Water Resources takes this problem very seriously but the issue really is that the landscape is not familiar to most people in California, so most people don‘t know that it‘s right at the center of the water supply for Los Angeles, for instance, and they don‘t understand the importance of making sure that measures are taken to strengthen it and to maintain it.

CARLSON:  So, if the levees break, it would obviously disrupt the water supply to the state.  Would people be injured?  Do people live in the flood zone, potential flood zone?

WOLFF:  Yes, more and more they do.  There‘s a lot of development on the east and south sides of the region, which are pretty close to the town of Stockton that‘s growing very quickly and there haven‘t been measures really adequate measures to limit development in the flood plain so that‘s a huge problem.

CARLSON:  And so people are building homes in the flood plain?

WOLFF:  Tens of thousands of houses, so we‘re talking about probably hundreds of thousands of people over the next, oh, dozen years or so right in the line of trouble.

CARLSON:  So, there are old decaying levees that you think may break soon and beneath them on the now dry side of them people are living.  Is anybody sounding the alarm?  Is anybody saying anything about this?

WOLFF:  Well, actually what‘s happening is slightly different from that.  When these new developments are built the levees that are built to support them are really big but those bigger levees are increasing the chances that the old levees will fail.

And there‘s a pretty obscure agency called the Reclamation Board that has been making recommendations to review development projects in the flood plain.  That board was just completely replaced by the governor about two weeks ago.

And although it was probably just a political reshuffling in a way that always happens, I think the timing of it is really alarming because we‘re at a moment now where we need to stop and say, wait a minute.  What are we doing?  This is just an accident waiting to happen.

CARLSON:  Well, tell me finally how much would it cost to fix these levees?

WOLFF:  You know the Department of Water Resources estimates that to really shore up the system, which would mean partly fixing the levees and partly taking other measures related to flood control will cost about $4 billion.

CARLSON:  Ah, well I can—now, now the picture is becoming clear.  Now I can see why this is not necessarily a thing that the State of California wants to talk about.  Jane Wolff, Washington University, St. Louis, the world‘s expert on the subject and I hope your expertise is not called to use again.  I hope this doesn‘t happen but, if it does, we can say you called it first, thanks.

WOLFF:  Thanks.

CARLSON:  Coming up, we all know by now that Madonna has a tendency to invent her own hype.  What did the material girl do that has rabbis up in arms?  Details when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MCDONALD:  Coming up, when Madonna isn‘t busy being British, she‘s stirring up controversy.  Tucker talks to a rabbi who says (INAUDIBLE) new song isn‘t kosher.

Plus, we investigate the growing epidemic of squirrels on crack.

CARLSON:  And there‘s more where that came from.  Stay tuned.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CARLSON:  Madonna seems to be getting much less shocking in her old age but with the upcoming release of her new album, which we will not be picking up the moment it‘s available, she‘s decided it‘s time to be controversial once again.

Jewish leaders are now accusing Madonna of exploiting her Kabbalah religion by dedicating a track to a 16th Century mystic called Isaac, even say she‘ll receive punishment from the heavens for that song. 

So what is the big deal?  Here to explain Rabbi Shmuley Boteach is the author of the new book, “Hating Women.”  He‘s here to tell us.  Rabbi, thanks for coming on.

RABBI SHMULEY BOTEACH, AUTHOR, “HATING WOMEN”:  Thanks for having me, Tucker.

CARLSON:  First, I‘m interested to hear you explain this.  Rabbi Raphael Cohen, he‘s the head of a seminary apparently in Israel, was quoted as saying about Madonna, “I can only sympathize for her because of the punishment that she‘s going to be receive from the heavens.”

BOTEACH:  Well, no, I mean that‘s way too harsh.  Madonna is our punishment from the heavens.  Well, look, rabbis I guess are just very offended that the Catholics get to have the Virgin Mary and Mother Teresa and we have Madonna.  We‘re up a creek.  Let‘s face it.

CARLSON:  The Catholics, the irony is of course the Catholics had Madonna for a while.

BOTEACH:  Right.

CARLSON:  She started out her career by, I don‘t know, you know, I don‘t know what urinating on a crucifix or something or whatever she was doing.

BOTEACH:  Right, right, right.

CARLSON:  So, she offended—she profaned Christianity.  Now she‘s doing it to Judaism.  What exactly has she done that‘s offensive?

BOTEACH:  Well, look, I mean the Kabbalah is mostly about—it‘s Judaism‘s mystical discipline and if you want to reduce it to one great teaching it‘s about the supremacy of the feminine over the masculine, the feminine passive over the masculine aggressive, peace over war, intellectual, emotional attachment over intellectual aloofness that women are naturally more spiritual than men and that a wife is a great blessing to her husband.

Along comes this woman who has so degraded and vulgarized women.  I mean Madonna is single handedly responsible for erasing the line that separated pornography from the female recording industry. 

Because of Madonna, someone like Ella Fitzgerald could never get a recording contract today.  You got to flash your boobs in order to sell a CD.  That‘s wrong because the whole feminist movement was appreciate us for our brain and not for our bust. 

So, it didn‘t take rabbis to come along and say, you know, this woman should be criticized.  The feminists should have done it but they didn‘t.  They sold out and they said “This is some sort of liberation,” as if being, you know, portraying women as some lecherous man‘s plaything is liberating.  It‘s not.  It‘s sexual slavery but no one criticized Madonna.

And now suddenly she‘s in our camp and we have no problem with her studying Judaism but to front the movement.  For Madonna to front Judaism and Kabbalah is like John Gotti fronting Catholicism.

CARLSON:  Well, I‘m amazed—I‘m amazed to learn that Kabbalah is not a fringe movement, maybe because of her association with it and the way it‘s been written up in the newspapers by and large.  Kabbalah or the Kabbalah center that she‘s involved with sounds like Scientology or something but it‘s not?

BOTEACH:  Right, well I mean the Kabbalah center has been criticized many times for being, I‘m not going to use the word cult but certainly there are peculiarities about the movement that I do not subscribe to but that shouldn‘t be seen as a criticism.

CARLSON:  The red...

BOTEACH:  Right, the red strings, all the superstition and we can‘t reduce religion to anti-intellectual superstition.  Religion isn‘t about making people afraid and saying if you wear some dumb red string, you know, like the whole—that‘s just a perfect example.

Kabbalah speaks about the evil eye.  The evil eye is a moral concept.  It means don‘t flaunt your wealth.  If God has given you great—a gift, hide it, be modest.  You can‘t reduce it to drive a Rolls Royce but wear some stupid string on your hand and you‘ll be protected.

It‘s a moral and ethical discipline that cannot be reduced to trinkets.  Hence, the offense, you know.  Vulgarity and religion don‘t go hand-in-hand and Madonna should really refine her character before she runs around saying “I‘m a Kabbalist.”

CARLSON:  Right but since there‘s no Jewish pope how can you make her?

BOTEACH:  Wait, what am I, chopped liver?

CARLSON:  You‘re a guest on our show which is close.

BOTEACH:  I thought you invited me because...

CARLSON:  But what can you do about it?  Can you boot Madonna out of the faith?

BOTEACH:  No.  No, but I can come on Tucker Carlson‘s THE SITUATION and I can be critical of her.  It‘s a free country and I can say that this woman doesn‘t represent me and that Judaism is much too refined to have a woman who became famous for simulating masturbation in front of children on MTV become its spiritual spokesperson.  That‘s just wrong.

CARLSON:  Amen.

BOTEACH:  And you know, and when you say that Madonna is becoming more refined or that she‘s changing a little bit, let‘s just remember two years ago she swapped spit with Britney Spears.

CARLSON:  Yes.

BOTEACH:  On a music television award.  She did that movie “Swept Away” where again we had nudity.  So, she hasn‘t come very far and I mean look, Richard Gere—Richard Gere represents Buddhism...

CARLSON:  Yes.

BOTEACH: ...and he understands that there‘s a moral calling in that and he can‘t degrade the Dali Lama and degrade Buddhism by running around in a thong or (INAUDIBLE).

CARLSON:  But he‘s not selling records and that‘s the difference.

BOTEACH:  Yes.

CARLSON:  Rabbi, thanks.

BOTEACH:  Thank you, Tucker.

CARLSON:  Appreciate it.

BOTEACH:  God bless you.  Thanks for having me.

CARLSON:  Thanks.

Coming up is society actually better off because of rich people like these?  One caller says more money does not necessarily mean more problems.  In defense of rich people when we dial up THE SITUATION voice mail next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CARLSON:  Welcome back.

Time for our voice mail segment.  Every night we recklessly distribute our unlisted phone number and every night you call.  Let‘s listen to what you said, first up.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

COLETTA, MADRAS, OREGON:  Hello, my name is Coletta.  My home town is Madras, Oregon.  And I wanted to say something about the show last night.  It really was a very racist thing you and the other guy had said about Native Americans saying that they‘re alcoholics and that they had low education level and that we didn‘t need the money.  Why celebrate the Columbus Day parade when us Indians are going extinct.  I think we all deserve an apology.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CARLSON:  Boy, I don‘t remember saying a lot of that.  I was merely—or any of it actually.  I was merely pointing out that the city of Denver was being shaken down a group of American Indian activists who said, “If you pay us money, we won‘t protest” and the city was right to say, hey, buzz off.  That‘s how I feel—next up.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

EDWARD, FT. MYERS BEACH, FLORIDA:  Hello, this is Edward from Fort Myers Beach.  I just wanted to say why is it always open season on the Catholic religion?  Tonight you two guys were talking about the Catholic religion and Kellerman said you probably shouldn‘t be talking about it and you said why not?  You did it the night before.  At the very least you owe them an apology.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CARLSON:  Boy, it is ethnic and religious grievance night here on THE SITUATION.  No, I wasn‘t attacking Catholics.  In fact, I think you‘ll notice in the coverage of Catholicism people go out of their way not to bring up the molestation scandals for instance.  It‘s considered unseemly. 

You saw, you know, a week of coverage of the death of the last pope but not one mention of those scandals.  I‘m not even taking a position on that other than to point out another example of people really tiptoeing around the subject and maybe they should.  Maybe they shouldn‘t but we‘re not beating up on Catholics on the show.  We‘re not going to—next up.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STEVE, ANDERSON, INDIANA:  Hey, Tucker, this is Steve from Anderson, Indiana.  Last night you were talking about the rich getting richer and being a bad thing.  I think if you go back in time you‘ve got the Vanderbilts, Carnegie, Rockefellers, who have all been richer than today‘s standards and those who take the risks should be well rewarded for those.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CARLSON:  I totally agree and, in fact, I defend rich people and fat people and people who smoke cigarettes and every other unpopular group in America.  I defend them all and particularly rich people.  I don‘t have a problem with rich people. 

I‘m merely saying that when the connection between work and creativity and pay becomes blurred, in other words when people get $10 million a year just for being CEO of a company, not necessarily taking bold risks, they‘re overcompensated and it makes other people envious and angry and also cynical.

And so I think it‘s bad and I think that shareholders ought to hold CEOs to a higher standard and, you know, if you‘re doing $10 million worth of work a year pay them $10 million but, if you‘re not, you know, you‘re getting paid too much—next up.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BRAD, BOISE, IDAHO:  Hey Tucker, this is Brad in Boise, Idaho.  Your comment about Canadians aren‘t very fair and I‘m not a Canadian but, you know, I wish America didn‘t let criminals in.  I‘m sorry if you‘ve got a felony record, we don‘t want you either.  I think America needs to follow suit from Canada and tell criminals we don‘t want you either.  So, have a great one, Tucker.  Lost the (INAUDIBLE) man.  Peace.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CARLSON:  Look, Brad, year after year after year we take an unending stream of washed up Canadian actors, would-be sitcom stars, half-baked Comedians.  The least they can do is take a criminal or two from us.  That‘s all I‘m saying, fair is fair.  I wasn‘t beating up on Canada just telling the truth.

Let me know what you‘re thinking.  Call anytime, 1-877-TCARLSON.  That‘s 877-822-7576.  And, beginning tomorrow, I‘ll also be answering your questions on our Web site.  E-mail me at tucker@msnbc.com.  I‘ll respond every day to everything you come up with, politics, culture, relationship advice.  Whatever you throw at me I‘ll throw something back.

Still ahead on THE SITUATION what would it take to get you to haul your wife all over an obstacle course for the weekend?  We‘ll tell you what delicious reward was on the line for these guys when we visit the Cutting Room Floor next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CARLSON:  Welcome back.

The wait is over.  Time for the Cutting Room Floor.  Willie Geist has arrived.

GEIST:  Hello, Tucker.

CARLSON:  You look a little sad, Willie.

GEIST:  The Yankees, the little team that could, have been eliminated from the playoffs.  Do whatever you want.  I don‘t care.

CARLSON:  Sorry about that, Willie.

Britney Spears giveth her undergarments and Britney Spears truly taketh her undergarments away.  That‘s in the Bible.  You can check.  You may remember that Britney placed one of her jewel-encrusted bras up for auction on eBay last week to help hurricane relief efforts.  The bidding got up to $60,000 before she yanked it off the Web site this Saturday.  Britney told her fans she was “concerned some of you might be confusing this bra with something it‘s not.”

GEIST:  No confusion on this end, Tucker.  I know exactly.  I just want to know what happens to my $60,000.

CARLSON:  I agree with that.

GEIST:  I slashed down my 401K and I‘d like to know where the money is.

CARLSON:  It‘s going to go to a worthy cause, Willie.

GEIST:  I hope so.

CARLSON:  (INAUDIBLE) with that bra.

Well unless you‘ve been living under a rock, you know that the North American Wife Carrying Championships were held in lovely Bethel, Maine, one of the great towns in the world over this weekend. 

Eighteen husbands threw their wives over their backs and negotiated an unforgiving obstacle course.  The men were competing to win their wife‘s weight in beer, no kidding.  In the end, April and Aaron Armstrong were the best of the best.  They‘ll go Finland for the world championships.

GEIST:  That‘s a double-edged sword.  If you have a really heavy wife you get a lot of beer if you win but you have to drag your heavy wife all over...

CARLSON:  Yes, you do.

GEIST: ...an obstacle course in Maine which is tough.

CARLSON:  That‘s one of the many drawbacks.

GEIST:  Also, what‘s the deal with Finland?  The world Air Guitar Championships are in Finland.

CARLSON:  Yes.

GEIST:  And the world wife carrying championships.

CARLSON:  Also, perhaps not coincidentally, one of the world‘s highest suicide rates.

GEIST:  A guitar is for happy people.

CARLSON:  I report and you decide but in Bethel, Maine really, truly one of the greatest places on this planet.

GEIST:  I‘ll take your word for it.

CARLSON:  Well, it was a noble effort for this group of Virginia Tech students who came up short of the Guinness World Record for the world‘s biggest pillow fight.  More than 1,000 people showed up at the school to swing their pillows and raise some money for hurricane relief.  They fell short of the record, of course.  That‘s held, as you know, by the state University of New York at Albany.

GEIST:  Of course.  We say a noble effort but they came up about 2,500 people shy so it wasn‘t actually that noble.

CARLSON:  Did they really?  Then not that noble.

GEIST:  When I heard there was a college pillow fighting thing, I was sort of picturing like the Tri Delts maybe, late night after they got into the peppermint schnapps sort of hitting each other back at the sorority house but it‘s not what I had in mind.

CARLSON:  No, that‘s Spectrovision Willie.

GEIST:  Oh, thank you.

CARLSON:  Yes.

Well it used to be all a squirrel needed to have a good time was a couple of nuts.  These are different times my friends.  A shocking expose on the Sun of London which like “US Weekly” here at home is never, ever wrong reveals that squirrels in London are getting hooked on crack cocaine.

GEIST:  Wow.

CARLSON:  The report says the squirrels are digging up an eating the crack stashes hidden in neighborhood gardens by addicts and crack dealers.

GEIST:  Am I wrong or don‘t squirrels always act—like how do you know a squirrel is on crack, always acting erratically even though he‘s a squirrel.

CARLSON:  (INAUDIBLE).

GEIST:  Right, ooh he‘s paranoid.  No, it‘s a squirrel.  Now, if he starts holding up liquor stores then we‘ll talk.  We got something.  But if a squirrel is jumpy and paranoid I don‘t think it necessarily means he‘s on crack.

CARLSON:  Here‘s my question Willie.  As a world traveler you can answer.

GEIST:  Yes.

CARLSON:  Are the gardens and parks of London so chock full of crack...

GEIST:  Riddled with crack.

CARLSON: ...that anywhere a squirrel digs there‘s going to be a vial of crack cocaine?

GEIST:  They‘re all over the place.  It‘s an epidemic.

CARLSON:  That‘s amazing (INAUDIBLE).  Willie Geist.

GEIST:  All right, Tucker.

CARLSON:  Thanks.  Sorry about the Yankees. 

That‘s THE SITUATION for tonight.

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

Watch The Situation with Tucker Carlson each weeknight at 11 p.m. ET

Discuss:

Discussion comments

,