Guests Bethany Marshall, Ray Poole, Cindy Stauffer
LISA DANIELS, GUEST HOST: Right now on SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY: captured.
He allegedly killed her parents, then kidnapped his 14-year-old girlfriend. We will track the teens‘ route and get the very latest on what happens now that they are in police custody.
Then, a woman goes on TV to say she was part of the plot to blow up Jordanian hotels, and she is not the first. They are the fastest growing terror threat, women in al Qaeda.
ANNOUNCER: From the press room, to the courtroom, to the halls of Congress, Joe Scarborough has seen it all. Welcome to SCARBOROUGH COUNTRY.
And thanks for being here. I‘m Lisa Daniels, in Joe. We will have those stories in just a minute.
Plus, he was the private eye to a who‘s-who of Hollywood stars, movers and shakers. Now his secret recordings could reveal the secrets and lies of some of the biggest celebrities in Tinseltown.
But, first, a stunning end today in a two-day manhunt for Pennsylvania teen David Ludwig and his girlfriend, Kara Borden.
We are awaiting a news conference from state police in Indiana, where the search ended. But let‘s first recap the dramatic chain of events in this story. Police issued an arrest warrant for Ludwig after they found Borden‘s parents murdered in their home Sunday morning. That led to an Amber Alert for 14-year-old Borden, who police believed was kidnapped by her boyfriend after the murders. The teens led police on a two-state car chase, from Borden‘s home in Lititz, Pennsylvania, until they were finally captured in Belleville, Indiana, around 12:30 this afternoon, and taken into police custody.
Let‘s get the latest right now from Sergeant Ray Poole, with the Indiana State Police. And Sergeant, I understand there was this dramatic high-speed chase, ending with the suspect‘s car crashing into a tree. What led police to your man?
Sergeant, can you hear me?
All right. Let‘s go to Washington, D.C. Clint Van Zandt, our crime profiler, is standing by. Clint, what do you make of this case?
CLINT VAN ZANDT, MSNBC ANALYST: Well, you know, (AUDIO GAP), point bulletin and Amber Alert that was put out on after these two adults, two parents, age 50, were both murdered. They started looking for this young man, 18 years old, who—whose 14-year-old girlfriend, of course, resided in the same house.
The information had been put out. Police were looking for a specific car, a red VW Jetta, diesel, Pennsylvania license plate number. You know, from the air, from the ground, that car stands out pretty well. So it wasn‘t a question of if. It was a question of when law enforcement was going to be able to find that car, and it would have been a one of two situations. One, either a high-speed chase on the highway, or two, they would have found them at some inexpensive hotel where they had stopped, trying to hide from law enforcement, obviously to no avail.
DANIELS: Clint, let me ask you an if question. There is one. How do police figure out if Kara was abducted, or if she cooperated in the crime? Obviously, she‘s under a lot of stress right now. Her parents perhaps murdered right in front of her. How did the police start sorting this out this early in the game?
VAN ZANDT: Yes, it‘s going to come from a couple of different sources. Number one, it‘s going to be her other brother and sister, at least her two siblings who were in the house at the time these two homicides took place. The police would have already interviewed them and found out what level of communication—in essence, you know, did the boyfriend, did David show up at the house after the father calls, he comes in, the father says, “what are you doing, you‘re 18, what are you doing dating a 14-year-old? That‘s against the law, you‘re going to go to jail.” Or who knows what happened. But some confrontation took place. A gun that the initial investigation says David, this 18-year-old, carried with him, brought into the house, was produced, and somehow during this confrontation, the mother and father were both murdered where they stood.
Now, whether the other siblings in the house will be able to tell exactly what they saw, what was said, and the difference is going to be, of course, if the 14-year-old girl said, you know, you can‘t say that to my boyfriend, you can‘t do that. We‘re going to go off together. Take them, David, you said you were going to take them. Or if he just produced the gun, started shooting, pointed it at her and said, come on, you have to come with me.
DANIELS: Well, as you said, Kara‘s sister may have heard the whole thing. We have to wait for those details.
Clint, hold on a second, because Sergeant Ray Poole with the Indiana State Police is on the phone. Sergeant, tell us more about this high-speed choice. Where did you get the tip from?
SERGEANT RAY POOLE, INDIANA STATE POLICE: Well, we got the tip from observant people on the interstate here in Indiana. There was a radio broadcast over the regular radio, in the local Indianapolis area, and we were able to follow up with some information, and then we also had some other people call in, saying they had spotted the vehicle in this particular area out here in Indiana on I-70 and state road 39, and one of our observant troopers happened to see that car just pass by him, going in the opposite direction on I-70.
DANIELS: And so what happened? He sees the car going, and he just starts chasing them? Does he do it surreptitiously, or does he just blatantly start to follow them?
POOLE: Well, after the car passed him, he radioed to one of the other troopers that was in the area, said, I think that car just passed me. And he turned on him, got behind the car, and noticed that it had the Pennsylvania plates, and the same vehicle that—matched that same exact description, being a Volkswagen Jetta, and it was red in color. And once the suspect, Ludwig, knew that the troopers were behind him, the chase was on, so to say.
DANIELS: I mean, we saw the car pretty banged up from that tree that it apparently crashed into. How much speed was being used in this high-speech chase?
POOLE: Well, unfortunately, the individual didn‘t know where he was going, so the speeds got pretty good. They were in excess of the speed limit, obviously, and he was trying to flee the police, and that was showing his obvious intent to flee the scene, and flee away from what we were trying to do. And you know, our troopers wanted to talk with him, to see if he was the person in question. But by him fleeing like he did, proved—it gave us one more piece of evidence that, yes, this may be that person that...
DANIELS: Sergeant, there were reports that David Ludwig and his girlfriend, Kara Borden, looked different. Can you confirm that for us? That they changed their appearance?
POOLE: At this point, no, not knowing what they looked like before. I don‘t know if their clothing had changed or their hair color or anything else had changed at this point. That‘s still under investigation, and our detectives are definitely looking into some of those things that questions are popping up.
DANIELS: That‘s very useful information, Sergeant.
We want to bring in Cindy Stauffer, but we are going to ask you to hang on, Sergeant.
DANIELS: She‘s a reporter with “The Lancaster New Era.”
Cindy, I understand that both Borden and Ludwig kept Web sites. I looked at some of them. What do you make of them? Do they seem like ordinary teens or anything interesting that you see on those personal Web site?
CINDY STAUFFER, “THE LANCASTER NEW ERA”: Particularly Kara‘s, I thought, seemed very typical for a 14-year-old girl. She talks about soccer, about her church youth group, about baby-sitting, things that you would imagine a 14-year-old would be interested in.
There is nothing to suggest that there is anything different going on in her life. I think Ludwig was also very typical for an 18-year-old boy. He talks about computers, rock climbing, dirt-biking, playing stupid pranks, things that you would imagine an 18-year-old would be interested in.
DANIELS: What do you call David a typical bad guy? There were some references to guns being used. He was an avid hunter. I mean, I‘m just guessing, judging from that Web site. What do you think?
STAUFFER: I don‘t think there was anything that would suggest that he had any sort of unusually bad streak in his personality.
I think he was interested in, as I said, computers and things that you would think an 18-year-old boy would be interested in. Hers was much more revealing, I thought, than David‘s was. But I didn‘t think there was anything alarming on either Web site.
DANIELS: Do we have any idea from the Web sites how these two met? I believe they were both homeschooled? Is that correct?
STAUFFER: That‘s right.
And the—there is a network of homeschoolers in the area. The kids know each other. They do certain joint activities together. They subscribe to each other‘s Web sites and may have known each other from mutual friends, according to people who knew both of them.
DANIELS: You talk about Kara being interested in Christian rock music. I saw that on David‘s Web site, too. Does he talk about that?
STAUFFER: He mentions a song by a group called Pillar.
Interestingly, she had a sweatshirt with the rock group, Christian
rock, Pillar on it when she disappeared. She was wearing that. And he
quotes some lyrics from one of their songs. Apparently, both of them had
recently attended a concert that included some Christian rock groups, that
Pillar and Audio A and some other ones.
DANIELS: But let‘s be clear,. Was there any mention on either one‘s Web site about the other one?
STAUFFER: The only link that I saw was, he had a story about buying a laptop, and she made a little comment about it, where she was—saying she was rolling her eyes, you and your laptops, that sort of thing.
But there was no clear link back and forth between the two of them. They—you can post messages on each other‘s Web sites. But it didn‘t appear that they had a lot going on, on the computer, at least.
DANIELS: Cindy, I want to bring in psychoanalyst Dr. Bethany Marshall. She‘s been listening in on the conversation.
Bethany, on the one hand, it seems like David and Kara might have been ordinary teens.
BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST: Yes.
DANIELS: On the other hand, Ludwig caught 600 miles away. If he is the guy, then, obviously, he had a loaded handgun with him.
DANIELS: Anything that you see, any insights that you could give into to what this guy is all about?
MARSHALL: Oh, yes.
Let‘s look inside the mind-set of a killer for a second. First of all, killers only kill when something has threatened their sense of well-being. And, often, what precipitates homicide is a serious or severe loss. Killers often kill a third party who is perceived to be standing in the way of love.
Men who stalk women rarely kill the women. They kill the children who they feel are standing in the way of the woman‘s love. And, in this case, we know Ludwig was out all night with Kara, came home. The parents were arguing with him, wanting a separation. And I think what really might have happened is that blew them away because he felt that loss would blow him away.
DANIELS: All right, that sounds kind of deep. That‘s a lot of psychoanalysm for a lot of viewers, I think. But what you are referring to are these reports that there was a fight over Kara‘s curfew.
DANIELS: I think a lot of viewers out there are thinking, and he allegedly blows the parents away because they are arguing about a curfew?
DANIELS: Does that seem a motive for a killer?
MARSHALL: Well, yes. Well, with homicide, there is usually what we call an incubation period prior to homicide. And it‘s rarely just the one precipitating event that causes the killer to kill.
Probably, he had a series of losses or traumatic events in his life, people teasing him, refusals of friendship, the loss of a grandparent.
DANIELS: Yes, but he was a homeschooled kid. He didn‘t have too much contact, we can only presume, with other kids.
MARSHALL: Well, then perhaps these traumatic events were within in his home. Kids don‘t kill for no reason.
And, over time, emotions outpaced his ability to reason. And, at some level, unconsciously, he was conceiving of the wish to kill. And he finally acted it out.
DANIELS: Doctor, let‘s talk more about this on the other side of the break.
DANIELS: I‘m going to ask my panel to stand by.
Indiana State Police about to hold a news conference. We are going to bring it to you live as soon as it begins.
We will be right back.
DANIELS: Indiana State Police about to hold a news conference on the capture of 18-year-old David Ludwig. We will bring it to you live right after this break.
DANIELS: And we are still awaiting the Indiana State Police holding a news conference on the capture of the man you‘re looking at, 18-year-old David Ludwig.
As we wait for it, let‘s bring in our all-star panel, starting with MSNBC analyst and our profiler Clint Van Zandt.
Clint, I was in Pittsburgh yesterday. I saw that Amber Alert every couple of miles on some of the major interstates.
VAN ZANDT: Sure.
DANIELS: How did this team get 600 miles from the crime scene without anyone seeing a red Volkswagen? It just seems—it seems hard to believe.
VAN ZANDT: Well, you know, you get in the car and you put the pedal to the metal. And, in this particular case, you just head west.
Now, whether they were going west to Indiana or west to California, we don‘t know yet, but this is probably not a crime of premeditation, at least a lot of premeditation. It‘s a crime of emotion. It‘s a crime of love. It‘s, you know, whatever the defense eventually calls it, so there‘s probably not a whole lot of—you know, in so many homicides, as an FBI agent, I have looked at, there is not a whole lot of planning, either in the crime itself or especially not a whole of planning in, where are we going to go from here and how are we going to get there?
This is just driving, trying to get your head together, trying to understand what you have done and what it means. And, in that time frame, of course, law enforcement closes a net around you and makes the arrest.
DANIELS: Clint, you know I love you, but I have got to take issue with what you just said, because how many kids do you know who bring a loaded handgun into a house?
VAN ZANDT: And that‘s the issue and that‘s the question I want answered as an FBI agent and a profiler. Did this young man, at age 18, did he bring a gun with him because he felt so threatened by the mother or the father or both that he feared for his physical safety, or did he bring that gun as part of premeditation, one of these that, I‘m going to take her, we are going to be together, and, if you try to stop me, I am prepared to do it, and I have this gun here?
That‘s the question that he has to answer and the witnesses in the answer are going to have to help him answer.
DANIELS: OK. So, take that last scenario. Let‘s study it for a second.
VAN ZANDT: Yes.
DANIELS: Under that theory, do you think Kara was abducted or cooperated? What is—did she cooperated? What do—all of your years of experience, what does your gut say?
VAN ZANDT: You know, it‘s—from everything I have heard, from what you have just read us on her Web site, from what I have heard her—other people talk about her—I heard a guy today. She was best friends with children and his family.
I mean, nobody paints this—this young lady as somebody walking in black, dyeing her hair, coming up with nails, saying terrible things, putting horrible things on her Web site. It doesn‘t sound like that type of psychosocial premeditation on her part.
Now you take somebody 14 and you have her parents killed in front of her. Her entire life, by and large, just disappeared, short of this 18-year-old boy. You know, I don‘t know that a 14-year-old young woman like this can willingly make that choice and have it be the mature choice that you and I are talking about. Did she really choose to go with him? Was she part of this crime?
You know, if she is 14, as an FBI agent, I could never even interview her. She‘s too young. You would want her to be in the custody of her parents. They are dead. So, now the challenge comes, when you‘re dealing with someone of this tender age, how do you find out what her involvement is and yet not further injure her, if that‘s possible, after witnessing the murder of her two parents?
DANIELS: Yes. Absolutely.
Let‘s bring back Sergeant Ray Poole of the Indiana State Police.
Sergeant, can you provide any more details on the circumstance of the arrest? What were the two like? Did they resist arrest? Give us some more details. Flush it out for us.
POOLE: Obviously, by fleeing the scene and being pursued—Ludwig was driving the vehicle. Of course, by him not slowing down initially for our officers, that shows that he was trying to flee.
POOLE: By him not knowing the area caused him to cash.
But once everything was said and done and the vehicle stopped rolling, after he hit the tree, it was determined—I mean, she basically, virtually just gave up. And he did, too. He gave up without any struggle.
VAN ZANDT: Lisa, can I ask the sergeant a question?
DANIELS: Yes, Clint, go ahead.
VAN ZANDT: Hey, Sergeant, quick question for you. Do you know, from the scene, was this young woman—was she defensive? Was she saying, please don‘t hurt him, I love him, throwing her arms around him, or did she seem happy that the troopers were there separating the two of them?
DANIELS: Let me just piggyback one more comment about that, that we keep on reading that she was crying at the end of the chase, that she was very upset, very emotional. Is that true, Sergeant?
POOLE: Well, when I arrived to the scene and right before they—she was pulled off, she was like any typical 14-year-old kid, probably little scared, not knowing what‘s going to go on, braces, the whole bit. And you are looking at this person here and you are thinking, this is a little kid. And they—and she didn‘t know what she got herself into.
DANIELS: Was she crying? Was she trembling? What was her behavior like?
POOLE: She was very upset. She was crying.
But I don‘t know—with me not talking with her, I don‘t know if she was crying because she was caught. I don‘t know if she was crying because of the situation. But I just know she was upset, like any typical 14-year-old child would be. You looked at that girl, and you saw a kid that didn‘t know what they had gotten themselves into.
DANIELS: Clint, what do you think?
VAN ZANDT: Yes, Sergeant, what—and you know what I‘m getting at.
VAN ZANDT: Was she fighting, trying to get to him, saying, don‘t hurt him; I love him? Or was she just so happy to see you guys there that that‘s as far as she could go?
POOLE: What our detectives were saying—because I wasn‘t there initially—I got there minutes after the fact—she just—she got out of the car willingly and walked over to the troopers. And that was it. There was no struggle. And I didn‘t hear any conversation, obviously. But when I did see her, she was crying.
VAN ZANDT: Yes.
POOLE: And it reminded me of a child that—it reminded me of a child.
DANIELS: Clint, hang on a second.
Psychoanalyst Dr. Bethany Marshall, are we looking at a Romeo-Juliet-type scenario here, Doctor?
MARSHALL: I don‘t think so.
Let‘s look. She‘s a 14-year-old girl. If this guy really blew away her parents, he is a very persuasive character. He has very strong beliefs. He‘s probably siting up all night talking to her on the phone, saying, look, your parents are bad. They are terrible. They are going to separate us.
She says, yes, yes, yes, they‘re bad. He goes into the house with a handgun, blows them away. And, on some level, she is going to be very confused and think, my God, was I at fault for this? Did I participate? And she is not going to know if she is at fault or not. She‘s only 14 years old.
So, she takes off with him. And she is still confused and she is going to be looking to the adults around her to give her a sense of what happened and help her make sense of it, basically.
DANIELS: Yes, but she‘s not running to the police.
Clint, do you think this is Stockholm syndrome? Do you think she was welcoming the police in her arms? What‘s your take?
VAN ZANDT: Well...
DANIELS: Do you agree with Bethany, basically?
VAN ZANDT: Well, this is—you know, Bethany knows, too, there is something called identification with the aggressor.
VAN ZANDT: That means, when you put your life and your—everything you have is now in the hands of this person who makes a decision whether you live, die, go to the bathroom, drink a soda or not, there‘s a tendency to do what you‘re told. And you don‘t do anything else because you are so afraid.
Now, we have—at 14 years old, I 100 percent agree that this woman is so young, she could be so manipulated. And, again—and I don‘t know if any of us can imagine the trauma that has got to be associated in living in this nice middle-class environment, brothers, sisters, two parents to love you, and, all of a sudden, your entire life changes when two or three rounds are fired out of a gun by somebody you thought was your boyfriend.
MARSHALL: And let‘s look at the fact that she was highly religious.
When you look at her blog, she talks about Jesus and the lord and church. And this was a good girl. So, her boyfriend walks in and kills her parents. And she is going to feel like she committed a sin, too. Now there is the loss of the parent. She is confused over, did she participate, did she not? And she is not going to want to lose the approval of the boyfriend, because she may feel that she is all she has.
DANIELS: Bethany, let me just interrupt there, because I think—with all due respect, I think that is a little simple.
On his Web site, he has got a lot of Christian beliefs on there. He has a lot of talking about he loves Christian rock music. There‘s a lot of Christian language. Are we making it too simple, that she is the good one; he is the bad one?
MARSHALL: I think a better and more complex to look at this—because murder is complex, right?
MARSHALL: Is to say that something was brewing underneath the surface, and had it been integrated into being angry on a Web site and talking about being mad at parents, then maybe it wouldn‘t have been acted out in this way.
Murderers, when you really take a look at kids who murder, it is the angry, acting-out ones who murder or put angry things on their Web site. It‘s the quiet ones, the religious ones, the good ones, who cannot process how they feel. And, so, from this standpoint, both of these kids, young people, really fit the profile of somebody who can murder, I think him more than her, obviously.
DANIELS: For a minute, let‘s put aside the psychoanalysis, because, Clint, what I want to ask you as a profiler is, when you sit down with Kara, how do you find out, did she help or was she a victim? What are the questions that you ask?
VAN ZANDT: Yes.
Well, you want to come at her very supportively. I would at this particular point. I mean, this is someone whose whole life is shattered. So, anything and everything I did and said to her would be supportive.
I would like to develop what the relationship was between her and her boyfriend, what conversations took place between the two of them prior to the boyfriend coming back.
VAN ZANDT: Did she feel that he was threatened by her parents? And then build on that frame of reference.
DANIELS: All right. We are going to talk more about—Indiana State Police about to hold a news conference.
We are going to take a quick break. We will be right back.
DANIELS: Indiana State Police holding a live news conference on the capture of 18-year-old David Ludwig.
(JOINED IN PROGRESS)
1ST SERGEANT DAVID BURSTEN, INDIANA STATE POLICE: Myself, or Sergeant
I‘m sorry—Colonel Larry Rawlins, myself...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You‘re fired.
BURSTEN: I‘ve just been fired. Myself, First Sergeant David Bursten, Indiana State Police.
Sitting to my immediate right is Senior Trooper David Cox, and to the right of him is—I‘m sorry Master Trooper David Cox and Senior Trooper, I‘ve reversed it again, David Furnace (ph), senior master. We‘ll start out with a brief overview of the circumstances as to what occurred and then we‘ll be able to direct questions to specific people involved.
As you‘re all aware, earlier this afternoon, an arrest was made of a suspect wanted for a homicide in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania. This occurred yesterday afternoon. Excuse me, yesterday morning.
And it started with the disturbance in Lancaster, Pennsylvania. Law enforcement officials arrived at that scene and they discovered Cathryn and Michael Borden deceased in the residence. They both had apparently died from gunshot wounds.
Their investigation developed a suspect as being a David Ludwig, 18-years-old from Lititz, Pennsylvania, and also information that abducted or possibly abducted was the daughter of the Bordens, Kara Borden, K-A-R-A, B-O-R-D-E-N, 14 years old, who is the daughter of the deceased. Lancaster officials issued a nationwide Amber Alert based upon the circumstances yesterday around 11 o‘clock Eastern Time.
That information came across all points, and shortly after 8 o‘clock this morning, sometime around 8: 20 this morning, it was reported by a citizen that a vehicle matching that description was observed as a truck stop around the 78-mile marker on I-69, which would be in the Fort Wayne District area. Troopers responded to that scene.
Information was put out that the vehicle had left the area sometime after initially being sighted, around 8: 30 in the morning, and based upon that information, a statewide broadcast was put out via the Indiana State Police to all law enforcement agencies. We also initiated contact with Lancaster, Pennsylvania, about their Amber Alert and began culling information from their investigation to do another Amber Alert here in Indiana. Prior to that Amber Alert being put out, sometime before noon this afternoon, Troopers Cox and Furnace (ph) observed the suspect vehicle on I-70 westbound just west of Indianapolis. And they attempted to stop the vehicle, and there was a pursuit after that time. The pursuit ended in the area of state road 39 and U.S. 40. Mr. Ludwig was taken into custody. And Kara Borden was also recovered unharmed.
I can tell you that we will not be able to answer specific questions about the Lancaster, Pennsylvania investigation. That is being handled by their authorities. We really don‘t have that much information on it, after this news conference is over, I do have a copy of their news release that I‘ll be able to give to all of you here.
We will be able to talk about specifics as related to what could happen with Mr. Ludwig, the prosecutor will address that. Assistant Superintendent Rollins has a comment to make about the agencies working together. We‘ll also have an opportunity for you to speak with Trooper Cox and Trooper Furnace as far as the circumstances that they observed. I would ask that you please raise your hand. Let me identify you; who you are with. And then we will let you address your questions. So we‘ll go ahead and begin. Bonnie Drucker (ph).
QUESTION: Dave, why were they in Indiana? Do you know?
BURSTEN: We don‘t know. This is still a very fluid investigation.
We just know that the suspect was wanted in connection for a murder. Warrants issued for his arrest. They were fleeing the area, and why someone goes to a particular state on what their ultimate destination was we don‘t know. I can tell you that he has cooperated with the investigation that we‘ve had here thus far. But we are not able to discuss any of the specifics that we‘ve had with him.
QUESTION: Has he made any statements? If so, what type of statements has he made to law enforcement officers?
BURSTEN: As I just mentioned, I can tell you that he has been cooperative in the investigation, but we will not be discussing specifics as to what he has said or did not say.
QUESTION: Dave, was she abduct or did she go willingly?
BURSTEN: That is an unknown item. I can tell you, that because she is a 14-year-old, as you‘re aware, there has to be a responsible adult in Indiana for us to do any questioning with her. She has not been questioned. Ultimately, she will be going back to Pennsylvania, and whatever the processes they have they will follow there.
QUESTION: Since there was a crash at the end of this. (OFF-MIKE) did Ludwig put up any resistance after the chase?
BURSTEN: If you‘ll hold that question when I have the troopers come in here, we‘ll refer to that. Please raise your hand and I‘ll recognize you.
QUESTION: Can you talk about how the 14-year-old girl is doing and what her condition was like, how she was communicating, how she‘s doing?
BURSTEN: I can tell you that she suffered no physical harm, and that she is alive and well at this time.
QUESTION: Dave, was there only one sighting or were there multiple sightings up in northwest Indiana.
BURSTEN: Those are things we‘re trying to flesh out now. There was a sighting in the Fort Wayne area. We also believe there was a sighting in very close proximity to when the troopers observed the vehicle. They made their observations independent of that other sighting reported to us.
QUESTION: What time was the sighting this afternoon? (OFF-MIKE)
BURSTEN: I don‘t have that exact time. Yes?
QUESTION: Is the young lady in custody, under arrest? What‘s her status at this point? In other words, is she a suspect or is she at this point a victim?
BURSTEN: That is unknown. By virtue that she‘s 14 years old, we‘re not able to question her. We‘re not going to question her. We‘re going to maintain her in safe custody for the Pennsylvania authorities. That will be an issue for them to look at.
QUESTION: Did Ludwig admit to the kidnapping and to the murders?
BURSTEN: As I mentioned, I can tell you that he was cooperative in the investigation. We will not discuss any specifics of the investigation. Yes?
QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE) returning to Pennsylvania?
BURSTEN: That‘s not yet determined. In just a moment, the prosecutor can make a comment that may address some of that.
QUESTION: Does Ludwig have any relatives in Indiana? Does he have friends here?
BURSTEN: None that I‘m aware of.
QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE) Miss Borden know who that was going to be in charge of her?
BURSTEN: That‘s not been determined.
QUESTION: Does she have any relatives here?
BURSTEN: That‘s unknown.
QUESTION: Can you give us the route of the pursuit and also some details of the pursuit? How many troopers were involved? Were there any other cars involved?
BURSTEN: I‘ll defer that to the troopers that were involved.
QUESTION: Did you find any evidence in the cars? Handgun, anything in the car?
BURSTEN: Anything to do with the vehicle and the recovery as part of the investigation is nothing that I would be able to discuss now.
QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE) piece together (OFF-MIKE)
BURSTEN: That is unknown at this time. Yes?
QUESTION: So there were three sightings?
BURSTEN: There were at least two, may have been more. We have not fleshed that out completely. The bottom line is that we know that people had heard the broadcast that was initially put out by Pennsylvania that was followed up with information from the news media, and then members of the public did see it and they did take action to call it into law enforcement. That was—that aided in the ultimate apprehension of Mr. Ludwig.
QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE) a truck driver, at a truck stop? (OFF-MIKE)
BURSTEN: I don‘t have the specifics. I don‘t know.
QUESTION: Were troopers waiting on I-65? (OFF-MIKE)
BURSTEN: I think we‘ve had a couple of questions directed to that. What I‘m going to stand up, and I‘m going to stand up and I‘m going to have Trooper Cox take the seat here, I‘m going to let him give a brief overview of what the dispatch that they heard. How it came to be, what they did. And then he can answer some of your questions related to the sighting.
DAVID COX, INDIANA STATE POLICE: I‘ve never done this before. So...
BURSTEN: Go ahead and give them a brief overview of what happened.
COX: You just want me to start from the beginning?
QUESTION: Tell us a little bit about the chase. How far, how fast, what was his demeanor after the accident?
COX: After the sighting and Trooper Furnace and I tried to initiate a traffic stop, it started approximately the 60-mile marker, which is in the area of State Road 39 on I-70. The vehicle, the suspect vehicle exited on to State Road 39, which is the 59-mile marker and proceeded northbound on State Road 39 up unto the area of U.S. 40 about four, 4.5 miles. The pursuit distance was probably five miles, at speeds of 90 plus, 95. The driver was operating northbound on State Road 39 at those speeds and traveling northbound in the southbound lane.
State Road 39 is a two-lane highway and when the highway was open, he was still proceeding in the wrong lane on the wrong side of the road. He was meeting vehicles head on and at the last second when he would run them into the ditch, he was swerving back over into his lane. Very reckless, very dangerous at that point.
He didn‘t make contact with any vehicles, however, until the end of the—and until the end of the pursuit when he hit the tree. That was the only contact he made with any vehicles or anything during the pursuit.
QUESTION: What was his demeanor? Did you drag him out of the car?
Did he try to run? What happens then?
COX: I pulled him from the car. There was some slight resistance, but that was it.
QUESTION: How (OFF-MIKE) Ms. Borden (OFF-MIKE)
COX: She exited the vehicle and was frantic.
QUESTION: Any comments that he made, any excited utterances or (OFF-MIKE) “I give up” or “You got me” (OFF-MIKE)
COX: No, sir. He didn‘t have hardly anything to say, no comments from him.
QUESTION: Was it a matter of the chase ended with his car losing control? (OFF-MIKE) How ultimately did the car end up in the tree?
COX: There was a collision between our police commission and his vehicle that he was operating.
QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE) elaborate? You said Kara was frantic when she got out of the car. Was she crying? Was she screaming?
QUESTION: Anything else?
COX: She was just frantic, crying, screaming. That‘s about it, ma‘am.
QUESTION: Was she happy to see you?
COX: I—I can‘t determine that.
QUESTION: Did she come towards you, run away from you?
COX: She stood off from us.
BURSTEN: You have to look at the context of the circumstances. And who knows what was going through her young mind at the time. And that‘s a tough question for anybody to answer, because the things that our officers are concerned about, their own officers‘ safety, getting her to safety, getting the suspect in custody. And we are not making those kind of evaluations at that time.
QUESTION: Was Ludwig armed?
COX: There were no weapons on his person when I patted him down, ma‘am.
QUESTION: I‘m sorry. I‘m a little unclear as to circumstances of the collision. Did one of the police cars make contact with him and knock him into the tree? Was it a roadblock? Or did he hit the tree on his own?
COX: As he was slowing to make a turn in the location that we were at is when the contact was made, sir, between the police car and his vehicle.
QUESTION: And he was going on state road 39. Did he cross 40? Did he run a red light at 40?
COX: It was—I observed it green when we went through it at the time.
QUESTION: OK. (OFF-MIKE) have gotten through, he completely missed the turn and the (OFF-MIKE) curve on 39?
COX: Yes, sir, that is correct.
QUESTION: Can you just tell us (OFF-MIKE) Were they waiting north of him? Were they behind him?
COX: There were two police cars involved. That was myself and Trooper Furnace (ph). And we were both behind the suspect vehicle.
QUESTION: (OFF-MIKE) tap maneuver of hit maneuver or did you just glide by mistake (OFF-MIKE)
COX: I‘m not sure exactly what happened, other than Trooper Furnace‘s (ph) commission made contact with the suspect vehicle.
BURSTEN: I know there had been some questions about what will happen with the suspects. So, I‘m going to ask the prosecutor to please have a seat here. And she will make a brief statement outlining what different things may occur.
BALDWIN: Obviously, there are some criminal charges that could be filed here in Hendricks County, under state charges. At this time, I have not made a determination if we are going to file those.
Preliminarily, we could be looking at criminal recklessness with a vehicle, resisting law enforcement using a vehicle, which is a D felony, and also the possibility of confinement. But, at this time, we are waiting for the Pennsylvania authorities and depending on if the suspect waives extradition...
DANIELS: There you have it, the details of the capture of 18-year-old David Ludwig, Indiana State Police holding this live news conference.
We are going to have full analysis with our panel right after a quick break.
DANIELS: And breaking news into MSNBC. You just heard the details surrounding the capture of this man, 18-year-old David Ludwig—Indiana State Police providing those details.
Here‘s the timeline.
Sunday morning: 14-year-old Kara Borden‘s parents found shot to death in their Pennsylvania home—within hours, an Amber Alert issued in Pennsylvania; 8:20 this morning, today, a citizen reports to police, he sees the vehicle in the Amber Alert hundreds of miles from the Pennsylvania crime scene. The state of Indiana issues a broadcast to its authorities.
And then a trooper, the guy you just saw, State Trooper David Cox, spots the red Volkswagen. A five-mile police chase ensues, speeds of 90-plus miles per hour. The suspect‘s car finally crashes into a tree; 18-year-old David Ludwig is arrested; 14-year-old Kara Borden is in that car. She is fine.
Indiana authorities saying they have not questioned her, but they are not ruling out Pennsylvania authorities might finish up the job.
Let‘s bring in our MSNBC panel.
Criminal profiler and MSNBC analyst Clint Van Zandt was listening to that.
I heard the word frantic describing Kara‘s demeanor.
VAN ZANDT: Absolutely. Absolutely.
DANIELS: What do you think, Clint?
VAN ZANDT: Yes, that was key.
Two things are key in that press conference—number one, of course, the value of an Amber Alert, the value of citizens listening, watching. You know, we only have an in—finite number of state troopers, but we have got millions of Americans on the road—to take a step forward, who say, I will look and I will save somebody‘s life, if have I to.
So, number, you know, not only did the cops do a good job, but the American people did a good job. Number two is the point you just made and that I really keyed on. She got out of that car. She was frantic. She was screaming. She was crying.
Now, again, she is 14. She is in the most emotionally distressful situation somebody could have been in since, you know, maybe the bombing of Bosnia or something like that, where you have to witness your loved ones die, like she had to watch.
But her demeanor would suggest that she was very happy to get out of that situation. It doesn‘t sound like she was clinging and saying, oh, here is the 18-year-old love of my life; please don‘t ever separate.
She was running to the police, saying, thank God you are here. Thank God someone is going to get me out of this situation.
I can hear psychoanalyst Dr. Bethany Marshall saying, didn‘t I just tell you that?
DANIELS: Bethany, this is what you were describing.
DANIELS: A frantic girl, crying, sobbing, telling the police—well, we don‘t know what she told them, but it sounded like she was pretty happy to see them.
What do you think?
MARSHALL: Well, let me take this one step further.
What I thought when I heard this press conference was the phenomena of murder-suicide, because often perpetrators who kill another person will then turn the gun on themselves, because they can‘t decide who is bad? Are you bad because you are separating me from my girlfriend or am I bad because I‘m going to be with without her?
So, what does he do? He gets on the road. And this—the sergeant, the person giving the press conference, was mentioning how he was swerving to one side of the road, kind of playing chicken, and then swerving out of cars‘ ways just in time.
He may have been trying to kill them. And perhaps her frantic quality, her tears, her crying was, here, she has lost her parents and then she is on the road with somebody who has basically become suicidal.
DANIELS: Hold on, Doctor. I can sense, I can smell that skepticism coming from Clint.
Go for it, Clint. What do you think?
VAN ZANDT: Well, you know, the interesting this is, if you want to commit suicide, you could commit suicide. You could run your car into a bridge abutment. You could take the gun and put it beside your head.
And what was interesting, too, you heard that trooper who made the arrest—number one, thank God for state troopers, who keep our road safe like that. The trooper who made the arrest said, when I patted him down, he didn‘t have a gun on him. That means, somehow, for some reason—maybe it was just under the front seat, but this young man had separated himself far enough from the gun that he wasn‘t going to try to commit perhaps a suicide by cop.
VAN ZANDT: And, if it was, if the idea of murder-suicide ever played in his mind, he has had the last 30 hours to do something about it. And it doesn‘t appear that he did.
DANIELS: I will tell you both something.
We just heard the details of this, but I don‘t think we are any closer to a theory just yet.
Hold on, both of you. We are going to take a quick break.
But, again, the capture, the details surrounding the capture of 18-year-old David Ludwig, that is the man police say is responsible for the double murder of a Pennsylvania couple and the apparent abduction of the couple‘s 14-year-old girl. Is it true?
We will be right back.
DANIELS: Breaking news into MSNBC.
The guy on the right is 18-year-old David Ludwig. Police say he‘s the man who committed a double murder of a Pennsylvania couple just yesterday.
Big questions about the woman on the left, 14-year-old Kara Borden.
Was she involved or was she really taken prisoner?
MSNBC analyst and criminal profiler Clint Van Zandt is with us, along with our panel.
Clint, listen to these various quotes I just heard. Tell me if I took too many English classes.
DANIELS: Quote: “They were fleeing the area. What their ultimate destination was, we don‘t know.”
The use of the word “we,” compare that with this other quote: “She exited the vehicle and was frantic.”
Are they treating these two like a couple on the run or are they treating her like a victim?
VAN ZANDT: Well, you know, you could be a linguistic profiler, with your astute ability to pick that out.
And, you know, in all honesty, that is something that we have to sit back. And you heard the police department say, the state troopers say that, we have not questioned this young woman yet.
So, if they are using “we” to suggest the two of them are running together, that information would have had to come from the crime scene and would have had to have come from this—one of the siblings of this young lady who was at the house the murders took place. And, then, her brother and sister ran to the next-door neighbor to call 911. And, at that time, this young 14-year-old was taken from the house.
So, you know, to me, this is still wide open, what her level of involvement is. And, in all honesty, at 14, I have got to cut her some slack. Can she make a mature decision?
DANIELS: All right. Thanks so much, both of you, Bethany and Clint.
That‘s all we have for you tonight.
Stay tuned for “HARDBALL WITH CHRIS MATTHEWS,” coming up next.
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.