KRISTEN WELKER:
This Sunday: show of force.
PRES. JOE BIDEN:
I think our democracy is at stake.
KRISTEN WELKER:
President Biden teams up with former Presidents Obama and Clinton as he faces a challenging campaign ahead.
FMR. PRES. BARACK OBAMA:
It's not just the negative case against the presumptive nominee on the other side, it's the positive case for somebody who's done an outstanding job in the presidency.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Will star power and a big cash advantage be enough to win over skeptical voters? I'll talk to Democratic Congressman Jim Clyburn of South Carolina. Plus: trials and tribulations. A trial date is set for Donald Trump’s first criminal trial with a gag order on the former president who is now selling bibles to raise money.
FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
We must make America pray again.
KRISTEN WELKER:
While House Republicans face a shrinking majority as more members head for the exits.
REP. KEN BUCK:
This place just keeps going downhill and I don’t need to spend my time here.
KRISTEN WELKER:
How fractured is the GOP and how will it impact 2024? I’ll talk to Republican Congressman Don Bacon of Nebraska. And: keeping the faith. NBC’s Savannah Guthrie shares her faith journey and her message this Easter in our Meet the Moment conversation.
SAVANNAH GUTHRIE:
The big message of the book is mostly what God does is love you. And his love has nothing to do with our thoughts of him. It has nothing to do with our actions, good or bad. It has nothing to do with who we are. It has everything to do with who he is.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Joining me for insight and analysis are: Katie Rogers, White House correspondent for the New York Times; former Homeland Security Secretary Jeh Johnson; and Ramesh Ponnuru of National Review. Welcome to Sunday, it’s Meet the Press.
ANNOUNCER:
From NBC News in Washington, the longest-running show in television history. This is Meet the Press with Kristen Welker.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Good Sunday morning and Happy Easter. The 2024 campaign is intensifying with that historic show of force for President Biden from his democratic predecessors Barack Obama and Bill Clinton at Radio City Music Hall. The Biden campaign also announcing a new effort to reach out to Nikki Haley voters, using Donald Trump's own words against him.
[START TAPE]
FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
She is - she's gone haywire.
FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
There aren't that many never Trumpers anymore.
FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
How do you bring these nikki haley voters back into the tent?
FMR. PRES. DONALD TRUMP:
I'm not sure we need too many
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
Meanwhile this week, the former president stepped up his attacks on the judge and his family in the New York hush money case, after that judge imposed a partial gag order on Mr. Trump less than three weeks from the April 15th start date in that trial. And now, Trump is asserting that none of the trials should quote "take place during my campaign," falsely calling the criminal proceedings "election interference." It is yet another reminder that we are covering this election against the backdrop of a deeply divided nation. but this week, there were also signs of how this country has the incredible capacity to come together. We saw that in Baltimore when the country rallied around that community after the collapse of the Francis Scott Key Bridge which claimed 6 lives.
[START TAPE]
GOV. WES MOORE:
We are Maryland tough. And we were Baltimore strong. So in the face of heartbreak, we come together. We embrace one another. And we come back stronger.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
At an event centered on bipartisanship at the Edward M. Kennedy Institute, I had the chance to speak with two governors this week about what is required for leadership in a crisis.. like the one Baltimore is facing.
[START TAPE]
GOV. MAURA HEALEY:
Whether it's a flood, whether it's a 9/11, whether it's a calamity, like we saw today, you don't know when things are going to happen, but then to quickly convene with your team and develop a strategy and communicate to the public. That to me, I think, is leadership
GOV. CHRIS SUNUNU
Bringing that transparency – being on the news, answering every question, not backing down from anything, and being super clear about what the mission is, what the metrics are, who's involved in what we're going to do to get out of it. Woo – brings everyone's temperature level down and allows things to flow so much better.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
And joining me now is Congressman Jim Clyburn, Democrat from South Carolina. Congressman Clyburn, welcome back to Meet The Press and Happy Easter.
REP. JAMES CLYBURN:
Happy Easter to you as well. And thank you so much for having me back.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, thank you for joining us on this holiday weekend. I do want to start with that tragic bridge collapse in Baltimore. President Biden has committed some $60 million so far. That's considered to be a fraction of what is needed. As you know, some of your colleagues, some fiscal conservative Republicans, are already saying that they oppose approving more funding for Baltimore. What say you, congressman? Do you think that Congress will ultimately wind up approving more funding for Baltimore?
REP. JAMES CLYBURN:
Well, I certainly hope so. The fact of the matter is all of us, every state in the nation, all 50 of us, will take our turns needing this kind of assistance. It may be gust storms in some places. It may be a flood or here in this part of the country, hurricanes. We all are subjected at one time or another to some kind of calamity. And we have seen this before. I will always remember how some of my colleagues failed to come to the assistance of a certain part of the country until it came to their backyards. And then, all of a sudden, they saw the need for it. So when I hear my colleagues that talk about Baltimore in this instance, I remind those, especially here in South Carolina, we got a pretty big port here, a very important port. And we've got a very big bridge that we look upon with pride. What were to happen – if that were to happen, what would our response be? So let's just remember that everybody gets their turn in need of assistance. And we ought to be rallying around Maryland, rallying around Baltimore, doing what is necessary to get that economy back running again, to get those people back on the jobs. Just remember that port is closed. A lot of people are out of work. And this is not the time of year you want to see that happening.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right. Well, congressman, let me ask you about some other very big news this week, that historic fundraiser that saw former presidents Obama and Clinton join President Biden, a show of force. They raised more than $25 million, obviously aimed at energizing the base. No doubt it likely did that. But my question for you, congressman, do you expect to see those former presidents out on the campaign trail routinely? Will they be a common presence on the campaign trail?
REP. JAMES CLYBURN:
I think so, but not to show force, but more to show unity, unity of purpose, to show defense of democracy. That's what's going on here. Three former presidents, all three of whom have had their challenges, but every one of them stood for what is right in this country, and that is to protect this democracy. And putting themselves below the needs, the dreams, the aspirations of the American people. So what we saw in New York last Thursday was a show of unity and a show of defense of democracy. And that is what we need in this country at this particular juncture.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, Congressman, as you know looming large over that event, including with some protesters, is the war in the Middle East, and in fact a new Gallup Poll finds that a majority of all Americans now oppose Israel's war in Gaza, and approval of Israel's actions have dropped from 50% to 36% since November. There were a number of interruptions at that fundraiser. And a growing number of Democrats are now calling this a "genocide," including Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez. So congressman, my question for you: do you agree with Congresswoman Ocasio-Cortez that what is happening is in fact a genocide?
REP. JAMES CLYBURN:
Well, I have not analyzed it to that extent. But I'll tell you this. What is happening is wrong. And we need to make it right. And that's what President Biden is trying to do, trying to make it right. And I would say that that poll showed much – more of a dissatisfaction with Netanyahu than with the people of Israel. We stand with the people of Israel. We do not like the fact that this country's policy is a two-state solution and Netanyahu has undermined that two-solution for as long as he's been in office. He sold his soul to the right-wingers in Israel in order to maintain power for himself. And those people are opposed to his two-state solution. Biden is for a two-state solution. Democrats are for a two-state solution. That it is the only way for us to move forward. And so this drop in support has nothing to do with the people of Israel and everything to do with Netanyahu.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Congressman, do you think the U.S. is doing enough, though? It just approved another order of shipments of munitions and weapons to Israel. A Democratic Senator Chris Van Hollen, saying, the Biden administration, quote, "needs to use their leverage effectively and should receive these basic commitments before green-lighting more bombs for Gaza." Commitments to preserve civilian lives is what he's referencing. Should the U.S. be using its leverage and withholding those munition shipments?
REP. JAMES CLYBURN:
Well, the leverage, it had to be used. And I think the president is using his leverage. And I remember the president –
KRISTEN WELKER:
But is he using enough of it, Congressman? They just accused that – they just approved that new shipment of weapons.
REP. JAMES CLYBURN:
Well, the question is: what were the agreements last year and the year before? And whether or not we are going to keep our word. We cannot go back on our word and expect for other people to keep theirs. So we have to keep our word. And so I have no idea what may be in these deals, what the president may be living up to. But the fact of the matter is, we must not lose our integrity as a nation. And we've got to stand in support of Israel.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Congressman, let me ask you about what's happening in South Carolina. This week a federal court ruled that South Carolina has to use a congressional map in the upcoming elections that it called an “unconstitutional racial gerrymander” after the Supreme Court failed to weigh in the case. ProPublica has a report that you actually worked with Republicans on this map to maintain a tighter grip on your own district by ensuring that 30,000 Black voters would move from a neighboring swing district into your own. Was that the case?
REP. JAMES CLYBURN:
No, that was not the case at all. When someone picks up the phone and asks you, "What are your suggestions as we're about to get these lines drawn?" I offered my suggestions. And I certainly didn't ask for my district to be turned into a minority – a minority district. And that's what it is. People keep publishing that I have a majority minority district. That is absolutely not true. Check the numbers. So when you hear people misrepresenting, and that's been going on throughout this whole nation for several years now, a conversation. Yes, I offered my suggestions. Did they follow my suggestions? Absolutely not. And so when you say you spoke to me and that there's an agreement, that is absolutely not true. And I told a young lady who came to me with that story, who happens to be from South Carolina, or at least she used to work here in South Carolina, she was looking to make a headline rather than to make any headway. And so I would say that I was not surprised at this. Remember the court did the same thing up in North Carolina the last time around. They allowed North Carolina to go forward with their gerrymandered district that were unfair. And so I was not surprised at this at all.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Let me ask you about Congress, more broadly speaking, congressman. A growing number of Democrats say they would protect Speaker Johnson from being ousted if he brings Ukraine aid to the floor. Do you think that's the case? And would you protect him if there was a move to oust him for bringing Ukraine aid to the floor?
REP. JAMES CLYBURN:
Well, let me say first of all, I stand in support of our leader Hakeem Jeffries. He is in those meetings. He is doing the negotiations. If he were to call me and say, "Look, I would like to have your vote in support of Johnson," he has got it. If he says to me otherwise, I'm going to follow his lead. So I'm not in those meetings. And I have no idea exactly what the result of those meetings may be. But I stand in firm support of the leadership of the party. And let me say if I might, you mentioned South Carolina. I want to mention something about North Carolina. Come Thursday, the president is going to be back in North Carolina with 30 – I’m sorry, $20 billion to fight climate change and to lower the cost of energy in North Carolina. And I might add, Joe Biden did not win North Carolina the last time around. But he is demonstrating once again that he is going to be a president of all the people, irrespective of whether or not they voted for him in the election.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Congressman, quickly before I let you go. I don't have to tell you we live in a very divided moment. This is Easter. What is your message about bipartisanship? Is it possible?
REP. JAMES CLYBURN:
I sure hope it's possible. I know this. We are now calling Easter "Resurrection Sunday." And I would hope that we can resurrect those things that have made this country great. I often said that this country has no need of being made great. We are great. We've all got to work together to make this country's greatness accessible and affordable for all of its citizens. Be it education, energy, health care, whatever it is. Those greatnesses must be made available to everybody. And we ought to do that on a bipartisan basis.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right.
REP. JAMES CLYBURN:
Yes, let's the contest. I love the contest. I love campaigning. But when the campaign is over, let's work together. And let's do what is necessary for this country to maintain its greatness. I have nothing against Republicans. My parents were Republicans. I work very closely with the Republican governor of South Carolina because we want to make sure that energy, and broadband, health care, education get to everybody.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right.
REP. JAMES CLYBURN:
So I would hope that we convene in a bipartisan basis, resurrect the goodnesses of the American people and maintain the greatness of these United States of America.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right. Congressman Clyburn, thank you so much. I hope you have a very Happy Easter. Thanks for joining us on this Easter Sunday.
REP. JAMES CLYBURN:
Thank you very much for having me.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And when we come back, former president Donald Trump faces his first criminal trial as the House faces a dwindling GOP majority. Will the fractured Republican caucus come together for foreign aid and emergency relief? Republican Congressman Don Bacon joins us next.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. Congress left town for a two-week recess, after passing a bipartisan bill that keeps the government open, but without passing aid for Ukraine. Speaker Johnson has yet to bring to the floor the $95 billion Senate aid bill passed more than six weeks ago, but opposed by many conservative members of the House Republican Caucus. In light of the delay, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy took to social media, Thursday, to announce he had personally spoken with Speaker Johnson on the increase in Russian air power and the near depletion of Ukrainian ammunition, posting, "Quick passage of U.S. aid to Ukraine by Congress is vital." Joining me now is Republican Congressman Don Bacon of Nebraska. Congressman Bacon, welcome back to Meet the Press. And Happy Easter to you. Thank you for joining us on the holiday.
REP. DON BACON:
Thank you, Kristen. And happy Easter to you and all the folks listening today. It's a very special day for all Christians, but thank you.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, we really appreciate your being here because I know it is a busy day, as well. I want to start, right there, with aid for Ukraine, which I know you strongly support. And, as I just mapped out, it hasn't been brought to the floor for a vote. So my question for you is when Congress gets back from recess, how confident are you that this aid will be passed? And how is it going to happen, congressman?
REP. DON BACON:
Well, Speaker Johnson is an honest man. He truly walks his faith. He doesn't talk his faith, he walks his faith, he shows it. He's committed to making this the first, the top priority, when we return back to Washington, DC. Now, most of the Republicans that I work with, they want military aid. They're not as in support of all the humanitarian aid that was in the Senate bill. So myself and Brian Fitzpatrick from Pennsylvania, but also working with Democrats Jared Golden and Ed Case from Hawaii, we put a bill together that focuses on military aid, a $66 billion bill that provides military aid to Ukraine, Israel, and Taiwan. Also, it's border security in that. We put this in as a discharge petition. With – and it gives the speaker and the House to amend our package. So what I think we're going to do is to get a bill that's focused on military aid. But I know the speaker also wants to have, like, the Repo Act, where we repossess some Russian assets to help them pay for this. Also, maybe, some lend lease segments to the bill. So some of this may become in the form of loans. But also, it's very important to the Republican side that we just don't give President Biden a blank check. And why is that? A lot of weapons that Ukraine needs, the president has not given them, like long-range ATACMS. These are for providing a stalemate in Ukraine. Why not give Ukraine the weapons that are higher-tech, more capable, as to help them prevail on the battlefield? So we want to force the president's hand on the kinds of weapons that we will provide.
KRISTEN WELKER:
But, Congressman, as you know, President Biden's been asking for this funding, which would allow him and the U.S. to provide more weapons, more ATACMS, for seven months. The fact that this has been held up is part of the reason why they haven't gotten there. Is that not the case? And you mentioned the loan. That's something that Donald Trump supports. Do you think that's how this gets through, through a loan?
REP. DON BACON:
I think it'll be segments to this funding that will be a loan, won't be the whole – whole thing. But I would say the president has had the capability – the ability to provide ATACMS, all along, and has not done it. So if we do this bill, and I think we will, there's enough support in the House to get this done. And I – and I want to make sure that we have support in the Senate. I don't want to just do a ping pong, where we send it back over to the Senate. There's just got to be a bicameral, bipartisan solution. But we want to force the president's hand on providing better, capable weapons.
KRISTEN WELKER:
But the Senate did send over a bill, months ago, congressman. The Senate did send over a bill, months ago, and it got stalled in the House.
REP. DON BACON:
Yeah. Well, it didn't have a lot of bicameral support, at least on the Republican side. Why is that? You have about almost $30 billion in humanitarian aid and there's not a lot of support for that amount of humanitarian aid going to Ukraine. We think the EU could do a lot more humanitarian than they are. They just did a $50 billion humanitarian aid and Germany has committed more. We think our role should be more military aid because that's what we're good at. And so I think – so I'm optimistic we're going to get this done in two weeks. I just want to ensure it's bicameral because I don't want to just send a bill over to the Senate and it doesn't go anywhere. So that's been my main concern. But I have a commitment from the speaker and the chairman of the Foreign Affairs Committee that we're going to put this on the floor and get a – get a vote.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Okay. Well, that's significant. You have a commitment from him. You heard it here. Let me ask you about the Speaker of the House because you know that some Republicans oppose him putting a Ukraine aid bill on the floor. Do you think he could lose his speakership over this, congressman?
REP. DON BACON:
It's – it’s possible, I'm not going to deny it. We have one or two people that are not team players. They'd rather enjoy the limelight, the social media. And the fact is with the one-seat majority – and we'll end up with a three- or four-seat majority after some special elections – out of 435 people, it's a very narrow majority. And one or two people can make this a minority. And yet, I'm of the view you work with the team. I don't have to get 100%. Eighty percent is the Ronald Reagan rule. But we have some people that if they don't get 100%, want to bring the House down and it makes us dysfunctional. And so it's a possibility. I do think there will be Democrats, though, who do not want to see this dysfunction. And I think they'll probably vote present or, maybe, not be there for a vote. But it is very likely that after this Ukraine bill, we may have a standoff with the speaker. I hope the speaker prevails. He's doing the right thing. It's in our national security interest that Ukraine remain independent.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right. We have a bunch more to get to, so let me turn to impeachment. You said, back in December, quote, "Once we realize there is not a high crime or misdemeanor, we should move on." Has that moment come, in your view?
REP. DON BACON:
Well, right now, the lawyers and the committee that I talk to say there's not a specific crime. And he'd need that for high crime or a misdemeanor. Now, I think it merited an investigation to put the facts out, let the public look at it, make a determination. And I think it's good to be transparent, especially in an election year, so let's put the facts on the table. But when I talked to the lawyers on the committee staff, they say, at this point, there is not a specific crime that's been committed. And I think that's important.
KRISTEN WELKER:
So is it time to drop it, congressman?
REP. DON BACON:
We don't want to –
KRISTEN WELKER:
Based on what you're saying, is it time to drop it?
REP. DON BACON:
I don't know if it's time, right now. But I do think we're probably nearing the conclusion of this investigation. And I think it was important for the American people to see that, yes, there's $24 million in foreign money that the family raised and all the hidden LLCs that the money was moved around in. But that is, in itself, not a high crime or misdemeanor.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right. Let me ask you, this week, GOP nominee – presumptive nominee, Donald Trump, shared a video of an image of President Biden bound and restrained in the back of a pickup truck. The Biden campaign responded and said that Trump is, quote, "Regularly inciting political violence." The former president also attacked the daughter of the judge overseeing his hush money trial in New York. Given that you have endorsed Donald Trump, do you also endorse this threatening rhetoric, congressman?
REP. DON BACON:
I don't support the rhetoric. By the way, we see rhetoric on both sides. I'm the target of a lot of rhetoric on both sides. And I would want us to raise the bar of civility and how we treat the other side of the aisle, for sure. Now, I don't think he was inciting violence, but it is representative of the political dialogue we have today. And I see it first hand. I get the - I get the same treatment from the left and the right, right now. Our country's better than this. We're the strongest country in the world. And we are the best country to live in, but we're not going to remain that way if we treat our opponents in this way. So that's the first thing I want to raise. We've got to be a lot better at how we dialogue with the opposition. But, secondly, when it comes to this election, we don't need that. The issues are on our side. In our district, the number-one issue, the number-two issue, the number-three issue is the border. And we – and we should be focusing on these issues and quality of life. And we will win.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Congressman, let me just follow up with you. You say he's not inciting political violence, but he has made threatening statements about the daughter of this judge. Is that appropriate? Is it appropriate to be going after judges and their family members?
REP. DON BACON:
I'll just say it this way. That's not how I talk. I'll lead by example on this. I think, in my debates with my opponents, I focus on the issues and that's how we win. And I think in Nebraska, in the Midwest, we don't like the nastiness, you know? We have a phrase here, "Nebraska nice," and it's real. So we can win on the issues, so that's what we should focus on.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Donald Trump is making the case, as you know, that he deserves total immunity. The Supreme Court's set to hear arguments in that case. Do you think that a president deserves total immunity, congressman?
REP. DON BACON:
No. All Americans have to live by the law. And we're all accountable for our behavior. And so, especially after you leave the presidency, everybody, any individual, can be held accountable through the legal system. And so, bottom line, every American is equally held responsible under the law.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Okay. Let me ask you, finally, if I can, obviously, there has been so much focus on the bridge collapse in Baltimore. We've been talking about the fact that the response, so far, has been bipartisan. Some fiscal conservatives are already saying that providing more funds to Baltimore would be like robbing Peter to pay Paul. What is your assessment? Do you think that more funding should be approved? And, on this Easter, what is your message about bipartisanship and the possibility of working together on something like this?
REP. DON BACON:
So, you have two questions there. First, the federal government does have a role with this bridge. I don't think it should be the sole, you know, payer. But it would probably be a partnership with Maryland, maybe the local authorities. It is a federal highway. In the Constitution, we have responsibility for infrastructure, so there is a role there. So the federal government's got to do its part. On Easter, you know, we've got to remind ourselves that, well, first of all, you know, on Resurrection Sunday, it shows that God has power over death, that we have an eternal future with faith. And we can't forget that. It's the most important day of the year for our faith. Secondly, I think our faith calls for the golden rule. It calls for, like, you know, the fruits of the spirit in Galatians, that we should treat each other with respect, decency. And I think, as Christians, sometimes we forgot that in this political debate.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yes.
REP. DON BACON:
We can’t allow ourselves to be – we've got to hold a higher bar here and remember the gold rule, as we work out the issues facing our country.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right. Congressman Don Bacon, thank you so much.
REP. DON BACON:
Thank you.
KRISTEN WELKER:
I really appreciate it. When we come back, the party's popular ex-presidents raise big dollars for the current occupant of the White House. Will a high bankroll make up for President Biden's low poll numbers? The panel is next.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. The panel is here: Katie Rogers, New York Times White House correspondent and author of “American Woman: The Transformation of the Modern First Lady from Hillary Clinton to Jill Biden;” former Homeland Security Secretary Jeh Johnson; and Ramesh Ponnuru of National Review. Thank you all for being here. Katie, I want to start with you. This massive fundraiser, three presidents. They raised more than $25 million. Will it make a difference?
KATIE ROGERS:
Well, actually they raised $26 million. They – I just was texting with the campaign to get final numbers. It does make a difference. It's more than – it’s $6 million more than Trump raised last month, for the whole month of – of February. So it makes a difference because they are going to pump that money back into battleground states. I think you mentioned Nikki Haley at some point on this campaign – on this show, but they're using that money to target voters who are open to anyone but Trump. So basically the campaign's point is, "We are going to use all this money we're raising on voters," which is different than how the Trump campaign will use their money.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Jeh – Jeh you know obviously President Biden, former President Obama. What difference do you think it will make, and is Obama going to be a big presence on the campaign trail? What are you expecting?
JEH JOHNSON:
Good question. First, you know, when you oversee the Secret Service for three years, you notice the little things about presidential movements. I was interested to watch the two of them get off Air Force One, and Obama's following Biden because he's the former president. He strides down the stairs, and then he did what he did for eight years, which is head straight for "The Beast," the right rear seat. And then all of a sudden he realized, "Oops, left turn. I've got to go around."
KRISTEN WELKER:
That's President Biden's entrance.
JEH JOHNSON:
Exactly. It's interesting to – seeing them on stage is a reminder that they were all elected for distinctly different reasons. Obama was next gen, new energy, new intellect that transcended race. Clinton was, "It's the economy, stupid." And Biden is, "Battle for the soul of our nation. Save us from the insanity." I hope the Biden people – and – and those rationales don't translate easily from one campaign to the other. I hope that the Biden people don't overlook the fact that the, "Save us from the insanity" rationale is even more compelling now than it was election 2020 when you look at what's happened since: January 6th, the criminal prosecutions. And President Trump's rhetoric has become even more extreme than it was in the run-up to 2020. And so that case is even more compelling now than it was four years ago.
KRISTEN WELKER:
You take me to Ramesh. I mean, Ramesh, what do you make of the rhetoric that we are hearing from former President Trump, this image that he's tweeted out of President Biden tied up in the back of a pickup truck? Maybe it energizes the base in a primary but plays a little differently in a general election, right?
RAMESH PONNURU:
I think one of the peculiarities of this particular campaign matchup is that each of the candidates would be better off keeping a low profile and letting the public focus on the other guy. Because when the public focuses on either of these candidates, it tends to think about the things that it dislikes about those candidates. What we're seeing from Trump is more of what has kept him a persistently unpopular figure, but it might not matter if Biden is unpopular enough. If he stays at these numbers through November, of course, the fact that Trump is – is – is saying these incendiary things isn't going to matter.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yeah. And yet this all comes, Katie, against the backdrop of these court cases. First court date is April 15th we now know. Again, plays very differently in a general.
KATIE ROGERS:
Well, I think – I – I kind of disagree on that. I think that the Biden campaign and the White House, although Biden has directed everyone on down to not comment on the legal proceedings themselves, they're using this as an opportunity to really talk aggressively about Trump's behavior, how dangerous his rhetoric can be. But also, if you've noticed in recent days, they're using their messaging to point out how absurd Trump can be. I think he tweeted about winning his own golf tournament at his club, and then the president said, "Well, congratulations. What an accomplishment." They're using this moment as a way to draw contrast without talking extensively about these legal problems.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yeah. I mean, Jeh, it's a really fascinating point because I know some Democrats want the president to get more aggressive in talking about former President Trump's legal problems. Should he? What are you expecting here?
JEH JOHNSON:
I – I think it's unavoidable. I think that the legitimate case to be made here is: How can you vote for someone for president who is under four different federal, criminal – four different felony indictments, who may well be convicted of a serious felony by Election Day? I think that's a legitimate question to ask voters. So they have to address this.
RAMESH PONNURU:
But it'll reinforce Trump's core message, which is that, "My political opponents are using these cases pretextually to persecute me." That's why Biden has been trying to stay out of this. At least, he doesn't want to be in the center of this story.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yeah. But, again, the difference between the primary and the general election. It plays very differently –
JEH JOHNSON:
But I also don't believe that – I mean the most extreme part of Trump's base accepts that, believes that: that he's being persecuted in some way. I don't believe swing voters buy that.
KATIE ROGERS:
And I think the president has been pretty direct about Trump lately, in terms of – in fundraisers in particular talking about he believes he poses a grave danger to democracy, in addition to everything else.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Katie, very quickly, we have about 30 seconds left. You have a book, “American Woman.” Do you anticipate the First Lady, Jill Biden, will play a significant role out on the campaign trail? She's already had some very powerful statements.
KATIE ROGERS:
Yeah. Well, she teaches full time, so they have told me that she will do as much as she can. But she launched Women for Biden last month. She's going to launch Educators for Biden in April. She goes on campaign swings regularly. She spent all last weekend in California. She is a potent fundraiser and the most popular surrogate he has, so she will have a voice and a presence.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Just about ten seconds. We've seen Michelle Obama, for example, really play a big role for former President Barack Obama on the trail.
JEH JOHNSON:
Absolutely. She was definitely a campaign asset.
KRISTEN WELKER:
All right, great. Thank you all for a great conversation on this Easter. I appreciate it. Hope you all have a great holiday. Well, he was a highly respected senator on both sides of the aisle. Our tribute to the late Senator Joe Lieberman when we come back. Stay with us.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. We want to take a moment to note the passing of former Senator Joe Lieberman of Connecticut. He served in the Senate for 24 years and made history as the first Jewish candidate on a White House ticket as Al Gore's running mate. A fiercely independent voice, he served both as a Democrat and an independent during his time in the Senate and bucked his party in 2008 to support the presidential bid of his friend John McCain. Lieberman was a candidate for president in 2004 and the Democratic nominee for vice president in the tumultuous 2000 election. He joined Meet the Press 12 days after the votes were cast in 2000 with the result hanging in the balance.
[START TAPE]
SENATOR JOE LIEBERMAN:
I think the most important thing I've learned, and I hope it's the most important thing the American people have learned, is that every vote counts. This is something that we – politicians always say in campaigns, and I think the public may view it with some skepticism. But, boy, look at this election. The second thing I've learned is that the system is resilient, our democracy is resilient. And, you know, courts are there to do the right thing. And I think ultimately when there's a dispute that cannot be settled in a legislative branch or in an executive branch or in the political process, the courts are there not as Democrats or Republicans but as individuals sworn to uphold the rule of law who will mediate and ultimately conclude this – this controversy.
[END TAPE]
KRISTEN WELKER:
Senator Lieberman was 82 years old.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Welcome back. You know her as the co-anchor of the “TODAY” show, but now Savannah Guthrie is showing the world a new side of herself: her relationship to her faith. While she doesn't consider herself a theologian, Savannah says like so many Americans, she has had a spiritual journey throughout her life. From Sunday school to choir practice, she always saw God as the sixth member of her family. In her new book, "Mostly What God Does," Savannah explores her relationship with God and how it has impacted the biggest moments of her life. Ahead of this Easter Sunday, I sat down for a very special meet the moment conversation with my NBC News colleague to discuss what she's learned while reflecting on her deeply held beliefs.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Why did you want to write this book now?
SAVANNAH GUTHRIE:
You know, no one is more surprised than me that I wrote a book about anything, let alone about faith and about God. It's definitely the most personal and vulnerable thing I've ever done.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Well, as someone who's known you for a long time, I have to say, one of the most beautiful parts of reading this book is that I hear your voice in every word. Really. I felt like I was sitting with you every time –
SAVANNAH GUTHRIE:
For better or worse.
KRISTEN WELKER:
– I read this book. And I think the world gets to hear your voice every morning on TV. But how did you find your written voice, your literary voice?
SAVANNAH GUTHRIE:
I love to hear you say that, because we are dear friends. And I've had many of my friends say, "This is so funny, reading this is like sitting and having coffee with you."
KRISTEN WELKER:
It really is.
SAVANNAH GUTHRIE:
Or more likely wine in my case. But, you know, I just wrote my own thoughts. It’s really – I – I tried to make it very simple, very plain, very down-to-earth, very accessible. It's not a religious tome. I'm the first to put the disclaimer on, saying, "I'm not a biblical scholar. I'm not a theologian." And I'm not offering myself up as some great example of piety or religious learning. I'm just a regular human who has walked in faith and out of faith over years and years and these are some of the things that I've learned. And I didn't learn them because everything went well. I learned them mostly when things went wrong, mostly when there were disasters, and disasters often of my own making. And the – the thrust of the book is very simple. It's simple, but it's not easy. It's called “Mostly What God Does.” And the rest of the sentence is, mostly what God does is love you.
KRISTEN WELKER:
As you say, you are a person of faith, you grew up with God as the sixth member of your household you say, what do you say to people who feel like they've lost their faith? How do they find it again?
SAVANNAH GUTHRIE:
I understand. And I think God understands. We live in a broken world. This is not the world that God intended. And there are hard questions. And I try to talk about those things. Where is God in a world that looks to be full of injustice, and despair, and suffering? Whether it's what we do in our business by looking at the news everyday or whether it's lives lived where disappointments mount, and heartbreak comes, and struggle seems – seems constant, I ask those questions. What are we supposed to believe about God? How are we supposed to find Him? I don't answer all the existential questions of the universe that are unanswerable. Spoiler alert. If I did, the book would probably be longer and I'd charge more. But I don't think it is a mistake and I don't think it is a lack of faith to grapple with those doubts. And the number one thing I say is, "Bring those doubts to God. Bring your whole self to God." He's not afraid of our questions.
KRISTEN WELKER:
You do write very candidly about one of the most painful times in your life, which is losing your father at the age of 16. You say, "I remember some of my friends asking if I could still believe in God, if his sudden death at the age of 49 had maybe doubt my beliefs. ‘No,’ I said, ‘This is when I need God the most.’" But, Savannah, I think a lot of people still wonder, how were you able to keep your faith and find such a strong relationship with it all these years later despite such a devastating loss at such a young age?
SAVANNAH GUTHRIE:
Well, you know, when I said that to my friends, I was 16 years old. And that was my first reaction, "No, I can't give up God. I can't lose my dad and God, not at the same time." But the rest of my life is a story of any kind of relationship where there's been a breach of trust. And when we have things that come to us that are hard, when we have suffering, it is a breach of trust. I write about this. I don't think that God is the author of evil, suffering, and death. This is not the world that He intended. But the fact of the matter is, and this is what's so difficult, this is the crucible of faith, for whatever reason, reasons we cannot possibly understand right now, He does permit it. This world is still going on in a broken way that is full of heartbreak. And it is very understandable to ask where is God in those moments. And that is what my life has been about, asking those questions. And I think that what I've learned is it is a relationship. I believe, and this is my leap of faith, that we will one day have a better world on Earth as it is in Heaven, the one intended. But until that day, we are asked to believe, and just draw close to God, and believe that He will draw close to us.
KRISTEN WELKER:
You're very candid about the moments in your life when you did not feel close to God, when you could not access your faith. You are doing the hard work. You started that very early with Vale by taking her to church. I love your mom sent the hymns to you –
SAVANNAH GUTHRIE:
Oh, my gosh.
KRISTEN WELKER:
– to listen to on your CD.
SAVANNAH GUTHRIE:
People keep asking me, "Do your kids go to church?" I'm like, "Yes, I drag them to church in the grand tradition of all of us who were dragged by our ears on Sunday morning. Yes, I do."
KRISTEN WELKER:
And you do the work yourself.
SAVANNAH GUTHRIE:
You have to do the work. But, you're right, it's very candid. I write about taking not months, not days, not a few weeks, but years in which, yes, I believed in a distant kind of way, but it's not like I waking up every morning doing bible study, or had some pious practices, or was even living a life that I would want to hold up to some religious scrutiny. No. I was a regular person. And there were times in my life where I was disappointed with the way things had turned out that I probably did blame God. And I just kind of checked out. And what I learned is that it doesn't matter how much we think of God. It does not matter what we think of God. It doesn't change how He thinks about us. It does not matter. It does not change how He treats us. So this is the big, I think, for me, the big ah-ha, the big message of the book is mostly what God does is love you. And His love has nothing to do with our thoughts of Him. It has nothing to do with our actions, good or bad. It has nothing to do with who we are. It has everything to do with who He is.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And you say that having children made you understand God's love for you?
SAVANNAH GUTHRIE:
Yes.
KRISTEN WELKER:
How? How did that revelation happen, Savannah?
SAVANNAH GUTHRIE:
I mean, you know this, being a mom –
KRISTEN WELKER:
Yes, I do.
SAVANNAH GUTHRIE:
– is a revelation in every single way. But spiritually it really was too. There was a moment when I realized when my daughter was born, of course, this love that was unimaginable to me before, and unlike any other I had experienced. Because it's the closest I think we'll ever come to understanding how God relates to us. Because a mother or father's love for their child is unconditional. Again, it doesn't matter how they act. On their worst day, your love is not any different for your daughter. On their worst day, no matter what she does, no matter if she's a snarly teen at 13 and says, "I hate you, mommy," you will love her the same. There is not one thing you could do or say for or against that she could do that would make you change your mind about her. When you realize that that's how God feels about us, it's stunning. It's stunningly intimate and tender. It's almost too good to believe.
KRISTEN WELKER:
We are having this conversation as we prepare to celebrate Easter. What does Easter mean to you? And how do you make sure that it is a day that is filled with faith even while you're doing the Easter egg hunts –
SAVANNAH GUTHRIE:
Oh, we do it all.
KRISTEN WELKER:
--and eating the big meal?
SAVANNAH GUTHRIE:
And every year, I'm like, "Count the eggs, because I'm going to find one in July, and it's going to stink." And so we do all the stuff. We got the Easter Bunny. It's fun. Why not? But we do go to church. And I do try to remind my kids why this day is so joyous. And, you know, it's an interesting metaphor for life. Because, of course, in the Christian tradition, Easter is the resurrection. But it comes after a day of darkness, a day of sorrow. But the morning, the Sunday morning is so full of joy, because we know what we've lost. We know how dark it can be. So when the light comes, it is magnificent. And that's the joy of Easter.
KRISTEN WELKER:
And just what is your Easter message for everyone, Savannah?
SAVANNAH GUTHRIE:
I guess my Easter message is, remember that you are loved, you specifically, everything about you. You are loved. You are adored. You are liked. Hold it in your heart if even for a split second. And if you can do that today, don't forget to do it tomorrow.
KRISTEN WELKER:
Finally, we want to acknowledge a somber milestone. It's been one year since Wall Street Journal Reporter Evan Gershkovich was imprisoned in Russia for doing his job. On Friday, the newspaper published this powerful front page: an empty space where all of Evan's work over the last year should have been. Here at "Meet the Press," we join our colleagues at the Wall Street Journal, and at news organizations across the country in saying: "journalism is not a crime." That's all for today, thanks for watching. Happy Easter. And remember: if it's Sunday it's Meet the Press.